The random football question thread

[17 Van der Gouw]

Like the random chat thread in the general forum, I figure it would be nice to have somewhere to post oddball football questions that don't really deserve their own thread.

I'll start the bidding:

- If the referee plays an advantage with one team on the attack, and the attacking team immediately play an offside pass: does play get pulled back for the original foul in favour of the attacking team? Or just a normal offside free kick to the defending team?

- When did goalkeepers first start wearing gloves? I saw a documentary about the 1962 World Cup, it seemed like none of the keepers had any kind of hand protection.

 

[adexkola]

- I think a normal offside free kick to the defending team would be sufficient. Play gets pulled back only when the defensive team wins the ball immediately after the offense. Of course, any cautions/send offs would be issued prior to resuming play by the offside free kick.

- No clue.

How come a goalie can catch the ball with his hands from a defensive header, but not a defensive pass?

 

[Big Ben Foster]

- I think a normal offside free kick to the defending team would be sufficient. Play gets pulled back only when the defensive team wins the ball immediately after the offense. Of course, any cautions/send offs would be issued prior to resuming play by the offside free kick.

You're probably right, but try telling that to EA Sports

 

[Beachryan]

More on referee interpretation, but a few that I don't get:

- Why is it a foul to clip someone after they've passed the ball, but not a foul to follow through after they've got their shot away?
- Why can you stand in an opponents way making no effort to play the ball when 'shepherding' it towards the goal line, but if you do that at any other point in a match it's a clear foul?
- Why can goalies punch players as long as they're trying to get the ball?
- Why are players often given yellow cards for accidental hand balls leading to penalties (since the rule change) when the point of a yellow is to caution them for something they consciously did?
- Why do referees just make up added time? Teams play an average of 22 minutes of football a half, which would imply a bit more than 3/4 minutes.

 

[Joemo]

- If the referee plays an advantage with one team on the attack, and the attacking team immediately play an offside pass: does play get pulled back for the original foul in favour of the attacking team? Or just a normal offside free kick to the defending team?

Good thread, always thought this kind of thread should be made.

I presume that the "advantage" is that the attacking team have the ability to play the pass?

 

[Big Ben Foster]

- Why do referees just make up added time? Teams play an average of 22 minutes of football a half, which would imply a bit more than 3/4 minutes.

Throw-ins and set pieces aren't considered "stoppages in play". I believe only goals, injuries, time wasting, and miscellaneous interruptions (i.e. power outages) count. So although the teams won't be playing, time won't need to be added on.

 

[Annihilate Now!]

- Why are players often given yellow cards for accidental hand balls leading to penalties (since the rule change) when the point of a yellow is to caution them for something they consciously did?

Only Intentional Handball can ever be penalised... so if a referee has given handball for an accidental handball, then that is already the wrong decision.

Intentional handball these days is generally accepted as putting your hands in a position where it isn't unreasonable that a ball can hit them, if you're hands are up in the air, you might not intend for the ball to hit your hand - but it if it does - it's your fault for intentionally having your hands that high.

 

[Snow]

More on referee interpretation, but a few that I don't get:

- Why is it a foul to clip someone after they've passed the ball, but not a foul to follow through after they've got their shot away?
- Why can you stand in an opponents way making no effort to play the ball when 'shepherding' it towards the goal line, but if you do that at any other point in a match it's a clear foul?
- Why can goalies punch players as long as they're trying to get the ball?
- Why are players often given yellow cards for accidental hand balls leading to penalties (since the rule change) when the point of a yellow is to caution them for something they consciously did?
- Why do referees just make up added time? Teams play an average of 22 minutes of football a half, which would imply a bit more than 3/4 minutes.

1. It should be. It's never ok to foul a player. Refs just don't call it. Just like they often don't call it when a keeper punches someone. That's rarely a penalty.
2. It shouldn't be ok either. It's just become the norm. Again, refs are at fault. They also give defenders free kick for diving all the time. It's just "safe" for them to do so.
3. See 1.
4. Handball rule is different depending on the league/refs. According to the rules, it's only handball if it's on purpose. Accidental handball aren't fouls. It's however hard to judge is something is accidental or not. My opinions is that it's accidental most of the times and therefor should a handball be a rare foul occurrence. In Spain they've taken up the zero tolerance policy. Every handball is a fould and a yellow card.
5. I have no idea. Part of the tradition I supposed. Refs grew up with 3 minutes added to the 90 as standard and haven't done much to change it. This season 4-5 minutes seems to be the norm in the PL which is a step in the right direction I think. Too much added time will only make players more tired and more likely to get injured.

 

[adexkola]

Throw-ins and set pieces aren't considered "stoppages in play". I believe only goals, injuries, time wasting, and miscellaneous interruptions (i.e. power outages) count. So although the teams won't be playing, time won't need to be added on.

Still, the amount of time added on usually deviates from the exact amount of time lost during the 90 minutes of play. Over here in the states, football is very meticulous with accounting for time, to the exact second.

 

[Arruda]

- I think a normal offside free kick to the defending team would be sufficient. Play gets pulled back only when the defensive team wins the ball immediately after the offense. Of course, any cautions/send offs would be issued prior to resuming play by the offside free kick.

- No clue.

How come a goalie can catch the ball with his hands from a defensive header, but not a defensive pass?

It's not just headers, the goalie can catch any backpass that isn't made bellow the knew (for example, a pass made with the thigh - this often leads to the crowd going mad because they don't fully understand the rule).

I'm not sure if there's a very clear explanation, I'd just guess that it's because these other type of passes are a lot less common, and definitely more risky and harder to abuse as a way of soaking pressure from the defence or for time wasting. In other words, it used to be possible to do this in any circumstance. So when they decided it was prone to being abused and boring, they decided to prohibit the most relevant part of it, and left the "emergency situations" out of it because they meant no harm to the game and are hardly ever abused. Seems sensible to me. They only banned what was strictly necessary.

On a slightly related note, I once went to make a pre-season with a local football club (it was more a way of enjoying time with some friends, as the club had a lot of people on vacations - I'm shit at football and had no chance of staying). I was used as a RB in the training games. In my first throw-in I didn't find a safe option so decided to make a long and high throw towards my keeper. He was instantly pressed and had to head it out of the box. He then told me he couldn't hold the ball when it came from throw-ins. I had watched football for years and was totally oblivious to the existence of that rule. Because of the above, I never thought it would be a problem.

 

[adexkola]

It's not just headers, the goalie can catch any backpass that isn't made bellow the knew (for example, a pass made with the thigh - this often leads to the crowd going mad because they don't fully understand the rule).

I'm not sure if there's a very clear explanation, I'd just guess that it's because these other type of passes are a lot less common, and definitely more risky and harder to abuse as a way of soaking pressure from the defence or for time wasting. In other words, it used to be possible to do this in any circumstance. So when they decided it was prone to being abused and boring, they decided to prohibit the most relevant part of it, and left the "emergency situations" out of it because they meant no harm to the game and are hardly ever abused. Seems sensible to me. They only banned what was strictly necessary.

On a slightly related note, I once went to make a pre-season with a local football club (it was more a way of enjoying time with some friends, as the club had a lot of people on vacations - I'm shit at football and had no chance of staying). I was used as a RB in the training games. In my first throw-in I didn't find a safe option so decided to make a long and high throw towards my keeper. He was instantly pressed and had to head it out of the box. He then told me he couldn't hold the ball when it came from throw-ins. I had watched football for years and was totally oblivious to the existence of that rule. Because of the above, I never thought it would be a problem.

I buy that, it makes sense.

 

[Sunny Jim]

This may sound like a stupid question but it's been bugging me for ages.

Let's assume that goal keeper's arms stretch to around 1 meter.

It's is a handball if goalkeeper's feet stay within the penalty box but the keeper reaches the ball which clearly outside the box (let's say that 1 meter)?

Or is it a handball if the ball is within the penalty box but the keeper rushed outside the box and his feet are out of the penalty box?

 

[Arruda]

This may sound like a stupid question but it's been bugging me for ages.

Let's assume that goal keeper's arms stretch to around 1 meter.

It's is a handball if goalkeeper's feet stay within the penalty box but the keeper reaches the ball which clearly outside the box (let's say that 1 meter)?

Or is it a handball if the ball is within the penalty box but the keeper rushed outside the box and his feet are out of the penalty box?

What matters is the position of the ball, not of the player. Hence a keeper may be standing outside the box but holding the ball as long the later is inside. In basketball it works the other way around, if I'm not mistaken (as long as the ball doesn't touch the ground of course).

So yes to the first question, no to the second.

 

[Sir A1ex]

More on referee interpretation, but a few that I don't get:

- Why is it a foul to clip someone after they've passed the ball, but not a foul to follow through after they've got their shot away?
- Why can you stand in an opponents way making no effort to play the ball when 'shepherding' it towards the goal line, but if you do that at any other point in a match it's a clear foul?
- Why can goalies punch players as long as they're trying to get the ball?
- Why are players often given yellow cards for accidental hand balls leading to penalties (since the rule change) when the point of a yellow is to caution them for something they consciously did?
- Why do referees just make up added time? Teams play an average of 22 minutes of football a half, which would imply a bit more than 3/4 minutes.

First four are all the same - just wrong things that have somehow become the norm, maybe because refs don't like giving penalties in at least 2 of those cases.

On point 5 though, it's worth bearing in mind that stoppage time is not meant to account for all stopages when the ball is not in play. It is to take into account exceptional delays to play restarting, such as injuries, time-wasting, substitutions and goal celebrations.
They seem to work on some general guidelines, such as 30 seconds per sub or goal, with injuries obvoiusly dependent on the situation. I think some are pretty good at keeping track of this and doing the maths, but others just go a bit finger in the air.
Another thing they clearly do is not add on as much if one team is 3 or 4 goals clear - you'll always see 3 instead of 4 or 5, or sometimes just 2 or even 1 in those situations. But you'd struggle to find anybody complaining about that, it's fair enough really.

 

[Sir A1ex]

It's not just headers, the goalie can catch any backpass that isn't made bellow the knew (for example, a pass made with the thigh - this often leads to the crowd going mad because they don't fully understand the rule).

Is that right? I actually thought it was upper body, so you can count me in with that crowd!

 

[Arruda]

Is that right? I actually thought it was upper body, so you can count me in with that crowd!

I'm absolutely sure it's right.

EDIT: In fact it's innacurate. I thought any-bellow the knee pass was illegal (that's how I've heard a pundit put it once), but it can be back-passed with the shin as well.

The offence rests on three events occurring in the following sequence:

• The ball is kicked (played with the foot, not the knee, thigh, or shin) by a team-mate of the goalkeeper,
• This action is deemed by the referee to be deliberate and intentional, rather than a deflection or a mis-kick which is not intended for goalkeepers direction,
• The goalkeeper handles the ball directly (no intervening touch of play of the ball by anyone else). Handling the ball involves retrieving the ball or making a save with one or both hands.

 

[SilentWitness]

On a slightly related note, I once went to make a pre-season with a local football club (it was more a way of enjoying time with some friends, as the club had a lot of people on vacations - I'm shit at football and had no chance of staying). I was used as a RB in the training games. In my first throw-in I didn't find a safe option so decided to make a long and high throw towards my keeper. He was instantly pressed and had to head it out of the box. He then told me he couldn't hold the ball when it came from throw-ins. I had watched football for years and was totally oblivious to the existence of that rule. Because of the above, I never thought it would be a problem.

That reminds me of this gem.


I suppose he had enough time and space to use his feet rather than his hands but i always wondered why he didn't just pick it up.

 

[Sir A1ex]

I'm absolutely sure it's right.

EDIT: In fact it's innacurate. I thought any-bellow the knee pass was illegal (that's how I've heard a pundit put it once), but it can be back-passed with the shin as well.

Actually, form what I can see FIFA are typcially vague about it. Law 12 says if the goalkeeper "touches the ball with his hands after it has been deliberately kicked to him by a team-mate", but nowhere do the LOTG define a kick.

I don't know if there is any directive to clarify that? The Wiki article you quoted doesn't seem to have any citation to back it up.

 

[Arruda]

Actually, form what I can see FIFA are typcially vague about it. Law 12 says if the goalkeeper "touches the ball with his hands after it has been deliberately kicked to him by a team-mate", but nowhere do the LOTG define a kick.

I don't know if there is any directive to clarify that? The Wiki article you quoted doesn't seem to have any citation to back it up.

The Laws of The Game themselves aren't enough to clarify a whole lot of situations, hence FIFA has a whole section on "Interpretations of the Laws of the Game". http://www.fifa.com/aboutfifa/footb...ng/laws-of-the-game/interpretation/index.html

There you can find out a lot of other things. For example, in the interpretations of the law 12 it says a player can't use tricks to circumvent the back-pass rule (such as doing keep-ups to head the ball to his keeper) and can be cautioned if he does so. I couldn't find a definition for "kick" there, but I presume it to be found elsewhere lost in the midst of another rules. I'm pretty sure it can be passed with the knee as I've seen it happen and referees allowing, so I presumed the wiki quotation to be correct.

The exact wording of the thing I mentioned above (Cautions for unsporting behaviour):

uses a deliberate trick while the ball is in play to pass the ball to his own
goalkeeper with his head, chest, knee, etc. in order to circumvent the Law,
irrespective of whether the goalkeeper touches the ball with his hands or
not. The offence is committed by the player in attempting to circumvent
both the letter and the spirit of Law 12 and play is restarted with an indirect
free kick

So I think from all that we can accept that it can be done with the knee. The shin part I'm not so sure, in fact I'm having a slight deja-vu of having discussed this elsewhere and never coming to a conclusion.

 

[Sir A1ex]

The Laws of The Game themselves aren't enough to clarify a whole lot of situations, hence FIFA has a whole section on "Interpretations of the Laws of the Game". http://www.fifa.com/aboutfifa/footb...ng/laws-of-the-game/interpretation/index.html

Well, the interpretation is part of the LOTG - or published as the same document anyway. But you're right it doesn't clarify, which is why I was asking about directives, which they tend to use to fill in gaps and ambiguities.

You / Wikipedia are probably right about the knee, but it's odd that the rule isn't more clear.

 

[Arruda]

Well, the interpretation is part of the LOTG - or published as the same document anyway. But you're right it doesn't clarify, which is why I was asking about directives, which they tend to use to fill in gaps and ambiguities.

You / Wikipedia are probably right about the knee, but it's odd that the rule isn't more clear.

See my edit above. My only doubt is the shin.

 

[Arruda]

FIFA is a terribly incompetent organization. The rules look like they've been written by a 12-year old.

From all this crap I can gather a defender can do a few keep-ups with the ball, pass it with the knee to his goalkeeper and be cautioned for it with an indirect free kick even if the keeper kicks it away and doesn't touch it with his hands. Ridiculous.

 

[Cutch]

Why do refs ignore about 10 foul throws a game?

Why does the assistant that checks a keeper doesn't encroach during penalties never do anything when he inevitably does?

 

[Sir A1ex]

See my edit above. My only doubt is the shin.

Yep makes sense. Incredibly obtuse way for them to define the rule though!

 

[Sir A1ex]

Why do refs ignore about 10 foul throws a game?

Why does the assistant that checks a keeper doesn't encroach during penalties never do anything when he inevitably does?

This is kind of turning into a "vent at refs for not doing their job right" thread!

For me the whole foul throw thing is stupid. The limits on throw-ins mean the team awarded the throw don't have nearly the advantage they should do. Sometimes they can almost be a disadvantage near your own goal.
I guess the rule is meant to prevent Schmeichel style 50 yard lobs, but some players can launch a legal throw pretty far.

 

[Big Ben Foster]

FIFA is a terribly incompetent organization. The rules look like they've been written by a 12-year old.

From all this crap I can gather a defender can do a few keep-ups with the ball, pass it with the knee to his goalkeeper and be cautioned for it with an indirect free kick even if the keeper kicks it away and doesn't touch it with his hands. Ridiculous.

FIFA doesn't write the rules though, the IFAB does.

 

[Arruda]

FIFA doesn't write the rules though, the IFAB does.

Didn't know that. Either way, they deserve a complete re-writing even if not a single rule would change.

 

[DOTA]

Sonny Anderson.

Brazilian bloke. Played football.

Upon a time I was adamant that we should sign him. I think this was based entirely on the fact I thought he had a cool name, which seemed more than reason enough for my eight year old self.

I don't really remember anything else about him. Was he any good?


Youtube video to jog memories...

 

[Gio]

Sonny Anderson.

Brazilian bloke. Played football.

Upon a time I was adamant that we should sign him. I think this was based entirely on the fact I thought he had a cool name, which seemed more than reason enough for my eight year old self.

I don't really remember anything else about him. Was he any good?

Aye he was pretty good. Classic no 9, adept finisher and linked play well. Surprised he only managed a handful of caps for Brazil, but in his defence there was a hell of a lot of competition in Ronaldo, Bebeto, Romario and Edmundo.

 

[17 Van der Gouw]

Next question:

What was the 'Goggs' thing all about at the Caf? I remember the old 'Sack Fergie, Sell Giggs' ironic quote...but sometimes I see:

"Sack Frogie, Sell Goggs"

-- where did this come from and what's it all about?

 

[Big Ben Foster]

Next question:

What was the 'Goggs' thing all about at the Caf? I remember the old 'Sack Fergie, Sell Giggs' ironic quote...but sometimes I see:

"Sack Frogie, Sell Goggs"

-- where did this come from and what's it all about?

Frogie was from the Manchester United Facebook Page thread; Goggs I think came from a matchday thread where somebody misspelled Giggs' name and it just caught on.

 

[17 Van der Gouw]

Frogie was from the Manchester United Facebook Page thread; Goggs I think came from a matchday thread where somebody misspelled Giggs' name and it just caught on.

Ahh cheers, was hoping it would mean something a little deeper than that!

 

[Big Ben Foster]

Ahh cheers, was hoping it would mean something a little deeper than that!

Found the thread where the Goggs thing started in case you were interested:
https://www.redcafe.net/threads/southampton-vs-manchester-united.229965/page-4

 

[17 Van der Gouw]

Found the thread where the Goggs thing started in case you were interested:
https://www.redcafe.net/threads/southampton-vs-manchester-united.229965/page-4

Thanks

 

[Roman Bellic]

Whats the caf' like when we win a league title?

 

[Roman Bellic]

does the league cup count as part of a treble?

 

[BigDunc9]

Whats the caf' like when we win a league title?

In 20 years you will find out mate be patient.

 

[Roman Bellic]

In 20 years you will find out mate be patient.

Lol,am i seriously being trolled by an Everton fan? is this 1987?

curse you David Moyes

 

[BigDunc9]

Lol,am i seriously being trolled by an Everton fan? is this 1987?

curse you David Moyes

Welcome back to Earth.

 

[Roman Bellic]

Welcome back to Earth.

Yeah you too, 5th to 14th ... must be tough, just when you thought you were rolling with the big boys