We certainly don't have the relentless finish to games we used to have when needing an equalizer/winner, but I felt that was more down to the plodding style drilled into the team than lack of spirit.
Is it the Players or the Tactics?
- Thread starter Walrus
- Start date
We certainly don't have the relentless finish to games we used to have when needing an equalizer/winner, but I felt that was more down to the plodding style drilled into the team than lack of spirit.
Sometimes 5 players, sometimes 6. He picked Kroos and Modric and Vidal and Rakitic so Schweinsteiger is more comparable. He's played as much as Fellaini and Lingard combined. Herrera has also played more and Young for that matter but in his case some of that has been in defense.
Clearly it's the tactics. Players are playing in very rigid set positions. Full backs barely overlap and our CMS never get beyond our forwards. Possession is clearly emphasized and has made us ridiculously slow and cautious with the ball.
Van Gaal has won the league title and champions league with Ajax, Barcelona and Bayern Munich.
He also won the Dutch league with Alkmar and lead the worst Dutch team Ive seen to 3rd in the world cup. I think its fair to say he's an experienced coach that can operate and winner at elite levels.
How many attacking players do we have that would get in City, Arsenal or even Chelsea team. Nevermind Barca, Munich, Real etc???????
There is your answer!
He also won the Dutch league with Alkmar and lead the worst Dutch team Ive seen to 3rd in the world cup. I think its fair to say he's an experienced coach that can operate and winner at elite levels.
How many attacking players do we have that would get in City, Arsenal or even Chelsea team. Nevermind Barca, Munich, Real etc???????
There is your answer!
Mad the way so many people use alleged deficiencies in our squad to exonerate the manager. It's his squad. He created it. At tremendous fecking expense.
who picked this team - bought and sold (all of the other strikers) players?
and who managed the most boring dutch team i've seen them have?
and the answer is LVG.
And you can only buy players that are available. Unless the transfer market has turned into a system where you put all your money into a machine and describe the type of player you want this argument doesn't work. He bought Di Maria, Falcao, Depay and Martial for a reason. Players take time to develop or adapt and sometimes they don't at all. It's clear we're still after some attacking talent, which is understandable because when you list our attackers compared to the teams we're supposed to be rivals with as was done on the last page it isn't pretty reading.
We attempted 4 dribbles last night, because we don't have players who can. It's been an issue for a long time, since the latter days of SAF's reign and it's been exacerbated by Shaw's injury.
feck me - he's spent millions on rebuilding the team he rebuilt in his first year. he's a dupe in the transfer market if your assumptions are correct. and we'll see more ins and outs and in the end be dull. 19 goals to date , same as last year with different players. they call that consistency.
Modric is the only one out of the bunch who has consistently played in the same role as Schweinsteiger and definitely shouldn't be on the list ahead of Jese. Even then it's a very strange point to argue, Herrera is the only one he's definitely missed out on, the rest are a matter of opinion at best.
Martial, Memphis, lingard and even Rooney are all capable of dribbling past players. Martial is as good at it as anybody as well. That's not the problem. Its tactics not letting them have the freedom to try things, take risks, whether its dribble past players, take shots, try risky passes. Its like in this system, we only look like we can score if everyone is full of confidence and in form. If not, then it becomes what we saw in the second half. Reverting to pointless possession so we don't concede.
Overall I would say our tactics are defensive but for me what happened last night in the last 40 minutes was on the players completely. Sadly in the end rightly or wrongly the manager is the one who will face the pressure. I can understand that it's his job to motivate the players but maybe it's me but in such a huge game like last night if the players can't motivate themselves enough then I wonder about whether these players belong to United.
He's rebuilt the squad twice in two years? What are you talking about? He bought 2 central midfielders because he couldn't get the players he wanted last year to replace the ageing Carrick, a rightback because we've needed one forever and 2 attackers to replace signings who didn't work out.
Players who played in at least half of our games this season from last year; De Gea, Mata, Rooney, Rojo, Smalling, Carrick, Blind, Young, Herrera, Fellaini. He didn't strip down the team he started to build last year, he added to it.
Indeed. And a good manager will buy the best available. Looking at players who've changed clubs in the transfer windows since Van Gaal took over, do you think he's signed the best available?
I mean, feck it. Just look at last night's game. PSV have only had Guardado for just over a year and he was head and shoulders better than any other United player.
Firmino's rapidly becoming a top class player at Liverpool. Payet's been a revelation at West Ham. Mahrez has been tearing up the league for West Ham. Alexis Sanchez was arguably the league's best player last season. Son and Alli are making a major impact at Spurs etc. etc. etc.
All signed by their current clubs since Van Gaal joined United.
Without getting into the specifics of whether we could or should have signed any of those individuals, it's a damning indictment that Van Gaal's spent so much money (almost as much as all those clubs spent, combined!) and the only player coming even close to that sort of impact is Luke Shaw, who was blatantly scouted by his predecessor.
Last edited:
Sorry but that's simply not true. Lingard has never been that player, he's always been busy and industrious but never a tricky player. It's never been Memphis' strength either and Rooney hasn't done that more than twice a season since he was about 23. Martial is the only player in the team who can, and he's been over-played and ran into the ground because we utterly depend on him for it.
sold off and bought in another group of players after doing much the same as last yr with the same results. boring football. he's fecked it proper. do you really want him spending another season and 100m on players? i don't.
we don't have the quality anymore.
fixed.
Whose fault is that? Martial's?
And who suggested buying any of those ahead of Di Maria or Depay?
How many players who went to big clubs and succeeded who we realistically had a chance at buying have we passed up on? Pedro been setting the world alight at Chelsea and Firmino has had 3 good games for Liverpool this season and has been dire in double that. Flavour of the month performers for smaller clubs aren't the solution or we'd be sitting here with players like Michu. The expectations are on a different level here and any club who signed those players would have taken Depay or Di Maria instead. I'm willing to wait more than 5 games before I declare Son to be tearing it up at Spurs.
Its a little weird with his transfers as I feel that they've all made sense and been good signings long term, yet with the amount we've spent we should be a lot better. Doesn't help that di maria flopped and didn't want to be at united but he also flopped primarily due to our tactics. But Herrera, Shaw, martial, Memphis, schneiderlin are all promising and good players we would have been looking at and any team would want them due to their potential, or actual ability, whether its as a squad player or starter. All players Fergie would probably look at as well. Same with Blind, though not for Fergies style. It doesn't help us that we needed to change so much, but I can't fault the signings we did make too much, but there's no doubt he didn't sign enough quality players in attack when we obviously have the money to spend on more quality.
Even with the players we have, its blatantly the tactics holding us back in an attacking sense. We just look clueless going forward unless everyone is on form and full of confidence. It should be that if everyone is full of confidence then we would be capable of scoring 4, 5 or 6 goals, not 2 or 3 like we currently do at our best.
This answers absolutely nothing.
Daglish won the league with Blackburn - what did he do next time he came to Liverpool?
Managers are as "human" as a footballer and there's plenty of factors which make them good or bad in certain situations so nonsense comments like this mean feck all.
In regards to the OP, you can't ignore the declining form of some of our players but you also can't ignore that tactics have probably contributed to it.
IMO it's both, swaying 75:25 towards manager and tactic.
No, but then we don't have any other option did we? You can only sign the players that are available and it's pretty clear that we didn't want to go into the season relying on a 19 year old but when he is the only player available you don't have many options.
We're still a little bit short up front, it happens to teams. LvG tried Falcao last season to remedy it, it didn't work (despite the general and misplaced excitement here), there weren't many options this year so we did the best we could.
Criticising LvG for most things I can sort of understand, his work in the transfer market I can't. Only AdM has been a major flop and that was certainly in part down to off the field issues beyond the clubs control. The rest have all been to a plan and played a role in the squad.
To those saying our attack sucks, compare our attacking play and stats to other teams in the league. Is our attack really that bad that we are about as entertaining and attacking as some of the worst teams in the PL? No. Our players are significantly better. Anyone who thinks that tactics are not the main cause are utterly clueless.
Don't get me wrong. I think we've some decent players in our squad, who would probably look better under a different manager. It just sticks in my craw to hear Van Gaal bleating about deficiencies in the squad he created, with a budget almost every other manager could only dream of. We need more wingers now, apparently. Why the hell did he sign Depay?
Martial, Lingard and Memphis will be excellent players in a couple of seasons. They are not there yet.
So you are right. We had enough chances to win the match but we did not.
The only area we have solidified is defence. We will need two top midfield players next season. Either from within or bought in. Carrick will be gone. Bastian will play even less matches. Morgan is not top notch. Herrera is the exception.
Think when we dominated all before us. There were no better midfield players than Keane and Scholes.
And we need a top class striker. Rooney is fading fast. The other 3 I have mentioned above.
Finally wingers. Young and Valencia will need replacement sooner rather than later.
Come on. Our 9 PL goals at old Trafford is worse than Newcastle and on a par with West Brom.
Baring in mind that midfield contributes significantly to attacking play too, and our midfield is one of the best in the league, how can you possibly lay the blame at the feet of the players? Is our overall attack on par with Newcastle?
Yet the managers of those smaller clubs - denied real quality like Depay and Di Maria - are somehow getting these "flavour of the month players" to help their teams produce attacking displays that we haven't come close to matching.
Not a convincing argument in favour of Van Gaal's supposed excellence as a manager.
Because he wanted 2? Because he's a very good player when cutting inside but he also wanted someone more pacey and direct?
It's this "if you can't solve every problem you shouldn't solve any problem" we had when we only bought Blind in midfield last year and didn't buy a defender this year.
He likes moaning. Fact is his style of play is what hampers his current players from doing the business.
What problem has Memphis solved? The fact we got rid of Nani for a massive loss? Or the fact Di Maria flopped? Be nice if Van Gaal could solve some problems that weren't of his own making.
Herrera came in as well and LVG didn't play him. and he wanted a defender and brought in Darmian. so i must have misunderstood your post.
Puhlease. This Barca team garnering praise for their last two brilliant displays were rank shit vs Celta Vigo not to long ago. I remember the treble 99 team of ours being saved by a Beckham free kick in an awful draw at home to West Ham on opening day. Not to remember the shamefully nil all away to Blackburn that ironically bagged us the point that helped us to the league title that season. Every team has days like last night in which nothing works.
The caf tends to be shit judges of a potential signing. cf. the giddiness over Di Maria/Falcao
Anyway, I don't care what the fans think. I want to know how Van Gaal thought he would use Depay, when there's been very little rhyme or reason to the way he's been used so far. Is he a striker or a winger? Poor fecker looks completely lost out there. I suspect he's as confused as the rest of us.
Teams approach Manchester United very different to for example Watford, there is alot more pressure on the attackers also.
The quality of players is more than good enough.
I don't think LvG has been tactically correct every time, I also think that having Shaw out has hurt us considerably in that regard. I do however think that with the attackers we have currently we have been playing the correct way, but things will be frustrating this season because we don't have that extra quality in the final third.
I don't consider our attack to be better than Arsenal's, and yet they have 8 goals at the Emirates this season in the league.
You keep speaking like we are in May but it's November.
I was talking about players LvG scouted, since he doesn't get credited for Herrera and Shaw. The defender bit is me being unclear, I was specifically talking about centerbacks.
doesn't matter - it's the overall play under LVG. nothing changed. 3 good/great results followed by 3 shit/poor results. players all over the shop. poor subs and teams setting us up for a draw because we can't break teams down. happened last season from start to finish.
I don't agree with most of what you're saying but you certainly won game of stats!