You haven't seen him play for milan i take it
How good was Rio Ferdinand? | …….
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He's the best centre half I've ever seen at United, and the second best I've ever seen, only Nesta is higher.
His ability to Nick the ball amd start an attack was second to none, his positional and cover play was second to none, only reason I rate Nesta higher is because the parts of his game I've mentioned, Nesta was probably on par, but could mix it far more physically.
Rio was the organiser/leader of the 06/13 partnership, vidic was the bruiser, which was the strength in his game and allowed Rio to focus on his. Really was the best partnership I've ever seen, and we desperately miss it.
1.Nesta
2.Rio
3.Vidic
4.Stam
5.Maldini (as a LB he's the best I've seen)
6.Terry
7.Desailly
8.Carvalho
9.Adams
10.Lucio
Wasn't a fan of Cannavaro st all but his world cup was exceptional in 06
His ability to Nick the ball amd start an attack was second to none, his positional and cover play was second to none, only reason I rate Nesta higher is because the parts of his game I've mentioned, Nesta was probably on par, but could mix it far more physically.
Rio was the organiser/leader of the 06/13 partnership, vidic was the bruiser, which was the strength in his game and allowed Rio to focus on his. Really was the best partnership I've ever seen, and we desperately miss it.
1.Nesta
2.Rio
3.Vidic
4.Stam
5.Maldini (as a LB he's the best I've seen)
6.Terry
7.Desailly
8.Carvalho
9.Adams
10.Lucio
Wasn't a fan of Cannavaro st all but his world cup was exceptional in 06
Rio was definitely better than Vidic in my opinion. I'm quite surprised that so many see it differently.
Too young to remember Stam vividly so Rio is the best United defender I've seen over a longer period of time. One of the very best defenders of his generation. Leadership qualities, composure, anticipation, awareness, calm passing and ball control, great in the air and quite pacey for most of his career. He really had it all.
Too young to remember Stam vividly so Rio is the best United defender I've seen over a longer period of time. One of the very best defenders of his generation. Leadership qualities, composure, anticipation, awareness, calm passing and ball control, great in the air and quite pacey for most of his career. He really had it all.
I think Maldini as CB is at least as good as Nesta to be honest in terms of peak. I'd reshuffle some of your choices there. Godin is comfortably better than Lucio, Thiago Silva and Puyol. I'd rank Campbel above Puyol and Lucio as well and Samuel/Montero a tier above Ramos.
1. Maldini, Nesta
2. Thuram
3. Cannavaro, Rio, Stam, Godin
4. Campbel, Terry
5. Puyol, Lucio, Thiago Silva
6. Samuel, Pepe, Chiellini, Montero
7. Sergio Ramos, Pique
Something like this.
superb player Rio - 2nd best central defender I have seen after Pallister.
Yeah that's the list I'm closest to agreeing with so far.
For me for the defenders who peaked in the last 20 years (which takes Maldini out of the list):
1. Nesta
2. Thuram
3. Rio, Cannavaro, Godin, Thiago Silva
4. Campbell, Stam,
5. Lucio, Terry, Carvalho, Chiellini, Puyol, Montero, Ayala
6. Boateng, Ramos, Vidic
Very little between tiers 3 and 4. Tier 5 is full of players who were hugely influential but showed an occasional weakness in their game (eg brainfarts, high line, card-happy).
As for the best central defender at any one time, I'd go with:
2000-2005 Nesta
2005-2006 Cannavaro
2006-2008 Ferdinand
2008-2009 Vidic
2009-2012 Silva
2012-2016 Godin
Similar in style, but Puyol clearly proved himself more extensively at a higher level. Puyol also shone in a brutally high line which Carragher would never have coped with. In fairness Puyol took a few years to get going and was a bit of a laughing stock in the early 2000s. Carragher was very solid though and unlucky to have peaked alongside a stacked generation of English centre-halves.
@Gio yeah I think we're at the same base. The only thing is probably Vidic in tier 6. I'd put him in the upper tier at least and IMO he's better than Montero or similar in style defenders from that tier.
Missed Barzagli who would probably get in your tier 6.
Missed Barzagli who would probably get in your tier 6.
Yeah, in fairness Vidic probably merits 5 and agreed on Barzagli.
The best we've seen at United in my opinion, total rolls royce of a player.
We don't seem to be getting these types of guys anymore.
We don't seem to be getting these types of guys anymore.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UEFA_Club_Football_Awards#Best_Defender
John Terry was voted best defender in Europe 2004-2005 when Chelsea only reach semi-final in Champions League (lost to Liverpool). He won it again in 2007-2008 season when Ferdinand won Champions League with United. Then he was voted again for the third times - a record - best defender of Europe in 2008-2009 season when United with Ferdinand reach Champions League final (Barca with Puyol won CL that year).
But yes, he (Terry) has never been best defender in Europe. I take it
Those awards hardly carry much weight when you consider Buffon won Best Goal keeper in Europe just once and Cech won it 4 timeshttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UEFA_Club_Football_Awards#Best_Defender
John Terry was voted best defender in Europe 2004-2005 when Chelsea only reach semi-final in Champions League (lost to Liverpool). He won it again in 2007-2008 season when Ferdinand won Champions League with United. Then he was voted again for the third times - a record - best defender of Europe in 2008-2009 season when United with Ferdinand reach Champions League final (Barca with Puyol won CL that year).
But yes, he (Terry) has never been best defender in Europe. I take it
He was awesome at his best, his partnership with Vidic was a rock-like foundation to build teams on. A great servant to United, sadly hampered by injuries in his last few seasons, but a great player during his time at OT, able to defend and also had a bit of poise and class about him.
Chelsea's defense under his command has equal records when playing against Barcelona with prime Ronaldinho (2 lost, 2 draw, 2 win) . While United with both Ferdinand and Vidic lost twice in a row to Barcelona (both when Ronaldinho already left). He was voted as the best even after he missed the penalty in Moscow that gave United with Vidic and Ferdinand CL medals.
He deserves to be considered as best defender in Europe for at least a period in the past - even for only one year. That's my opinion. If you and United fans think differently, I respect it.
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He was never at that level for me personally, very, very good defender and for a long period of time but never the best. Those Uefa awards don't mean much, and in my opinion they are not a great way to gauge players.
Also comparing results vs Barcelona is a bit misleading as well. The 4 times (i think) i have seen Terry vs Barca/Messi in 2009 and 2012 semi's Chelsea were playing ultra defensive which obviously suits a centre back.
United with Ferdinand did similar vs Barca in the 2008 semi's away (0-0) and kept it tight home and won 1-0. The other two times Rio/Vidic played Barca was in finals where United went out to attack Barca, we didn't pack 10 players in and around the box.
If you see the list above, I've put Terry ahead of Vidic, Boateng, Barzagli, Ramos, etc - I'm hardly pissing on the poor man. Agree with you that he's under-rated on here, with that double-whammy of being both a Chelsea player and a cnut.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UEFA_Club_Football_Awards#Best_Defender
John Terry was voted best defender in Europe 2004-2005 when Chelsea only reach semi-final in Champions League (lost to Liverpool). He won it again in 2007-2008 season when Ferdinand won Champions League with United. Then he was voted again for the third times - a record - best defender of Europe in 2008-2009 season when United with Ferdinand reach Champions League final (Barca with Puyol won CL that year).
But yes, he (Terry) has never been best defender in Europe. I take it
Best defender I've seen at United. His partnership with Vidic was incredible. Genuine world class player who could've walked into just about any team in Europe in his prime.
@Enigma_87 @Gio agree with your lists.. but just out of interest, Thuram rated very highly on your lists.. but as a centre-back, how long did he feature in that position and for whom.. what notable performances did he have at CB..
Terry's peak years were between 2005-2009, especially during the time he faced Ronaldinho's Barca team. Between 2010-2015 he was still important to Chelsea but not at his peak anymore. So not you but if someone who just has watched him from 2010 to now has the very right reason to judge he is not the best.
About the awards, I mean he won those awards even when Chelsea didn't won Champions League during those years. He was voted as the best at the same years when his team lost to Liverpool of Carragher in 2005, United of Rio and Vidic in 2008 and Barca of Puyol in 2009 then he must have been performing outstandingly during those years to get it.
Of course not 100% agree that he was the best. But he got the awards three times a record which means a lot of people considered him the best, including myself. Probably same with Rio or Vidic, a lot of people believed they are the best.
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At the club level, he played almost exclusively as a CB. For Parma and then Juventus
Thuram actually started as a CB and his secondary position was RB. He started as a CB for Monaco, then played as a RCB for Parma with Sensini and Cannavaro in 3 man defence. He won French player of the year when he was RCB for Parma.
He was shifted as a RB for the NT because they had Desailly and Blanc as a pairing which was pretty complimentary but then he returned as a CB under Santini at the EURO.
He started his career at Juve as a RB to be fair with Tudor, Montero, Iuliano, Ferrara switching positions centrally as well. Then around the EURO again I think he moved centrally and during the time Lippi was in charge Thuram always stated he preferred playing centrally.
Thanks guys
United fan's in general don't give Terry enough credit. In my opinion he was better on the ball than Rio, had much more of an impact in general in an attacking sense (the english Sergio Ramos) and yet was seen as the lesser of the two from a ball-playing perspective. Even though he could spread the ball with either foot, could dribble with the ball from the back and generally more incisive with his passes between the lines. He also had superior leadership skills and could organise a defence to a higher level.
Nevertheless from a pure defensive perspective and in terms of being able to play different systems etc, I would have Rio ahead of him but only just and I wouldn't say that is a definitive opinion. Terry was better in the air and had better concentration. He was also massively unlucky with injury and it made him lose that tenacity.. having to play within himself.
Terry's big weakness was that he had to be in quite defensive set ups in order to get the best out of him, whereas Rio didn't need that sort of assistance. Then again by time AVB took over, Terry had already lost something physically so it is hard to say if peak Terry could have done better in a more expansive system. He also played in much more tactically astute sides, which made his job easier.
I saw Barca live many times while he was playing and I'll trust my own judgement thanks. He was bang average and if people were mentioning him as being anywhere as good as Nesta or Cannavaro is just deluded and suggests a lack of football appreciation for what's good or notSince I can't convince you to change your mind, maybe you should read this thread and the opinions of people who were watching Puyol live, from a thread back in 2006:
http://forums.bigsoccer.com/threads/nesta-terry-cannavaro-or-puyol.340103/
He didn't look out of place in a discussion involving Nesta and Cannavaro. But sure, he was average.
who voted? Terry was rarely best defender at Chelsea never mind England and never ever Europehttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UEFA_Club_Football_Awards#Best_Defender
John Terry was voted best defender in Europe 2004-2005 when Chelsea only reach semi-final in Champions League (lost to Liverpool). He won it again in 2007-2008 season when Ferdinand won Champions League with United. Then he was voted again for the third times - a record - best defender of Europe in 2008-2009 season when United with Ferdinand reach Champions League final (Barca with Puyol won CL that year).
But yes, he (Terry) has never been best defender in Europe. I take it
Them awards mean nothing. Terry wasn't even the best defender at Chelsea never mind Europe. Irks me that Terry get's all the praise in the world by pundits and fans and then they fail to recognise how good Carvalho was. Terry was very good but definitely English bias there.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UEFA_Club_Football_Awards#Best_Defender
John Terry was voted best defender in Europe 2004-2005 when Chelsea only reach semi-final in Champions League (lost to Liverpool). He won it again in 2007-2008 season when Ferdinand won Champions League with United. Then he was voted again for the third times - a record - best defender of Europe in 2008-2009 season when United with Ferdinand reach Champions League final (Barca with Puyol won CL that year).
But yes, he (Terry) has never been best defender in Europe. I take it
I agree with Puyol being well below Nesta, but he's pretty comparable with Cannavaro, who is highly overrated due to his world cup heroics, he was never that good again or before. Id put Puyol up there with him for sure.
Thanks for your comment. I really appreciate it. It made me remember back in 2006 when my close friend, a die hard United fan, said he rated Terry and Rio equally good.
Probably I don't have anything more to expect from this thread.
Thuram moved to juve in 2001. Played either as the right sided CB in a 3-man defence, or as CB in a back-4. He only played RB as an emergency solution. He was never a RB on italy
I'm old enough to have seen Terrys entire career. And i rated him very highly, i agree 05-09 was definitely his peak years. No doubt club bias comes into play when you rate him as the best in Europe at one point and i rated Ferdinand and Vidic higher than than Terry at one time or another but that will always be the case with any football fan to be fair.
On those awards i personally put no stock into them, no idea who even decides them to be honest. Much like the Ballon D'or rankings most of the time they are based on popularity/profile than actual form.
Rio was a much better player than Terry, it's not even close IMO. Terry was a good/great defender but nowhere near one of the best like Rio. A team had to play to Terry's strength's somewhat as in playing a deep defensive line. He was a proper no nonsense english defender that would throw his body on the line whereas as you never saw Rio making last ditch challenges, mainly because of his positioning and reading of the game being so good, and if he was caught out his recovery pace would save him.
Terry was sometimes a liability in big games, he allowed himself to get sent off in the semi final against Barcelona because he got wound up, shockingly bad for a captain and a top defender in such a big game. He never deserved to lift that trophy in the way he did after leaving his team mates so under the cosh in a big game.
Terry was sometimes a liability in big games, he allowed himself to get sent off in the semi final against Barcelona because he got wound up, shockingly bad for a captain and a top defender in such a big game. He never deserved to lift that trophy in the way he did after leaving his team mates so under the cosh in a big game.
@Enigma_87
I'll just quote myself here
Btw, about Terry. He's mostly been rated higher than Rio by most italian pundits(and fans) throughout their primes, and generally is seen as not inferior to Rio on the whole. I think Terry was helped by playing on a better defensive side for most of his career, and i think Rio at his best was slightly better, but on the whole i rate them on the same level
I'll just quote myself here
His first season at juve, he started out as CB, didn't play particularly well, the whole team took half a season to gel(nedved was considered a bust right until the end of the season), and Lippi switched him to RB as an emergency solution. He moved right back to CB the following season. He was never considered a RB in Italy
Btw, about Terry. He's mostly been rated higher than Rio by most italian pundits(and fans) throughout their primes, and generally is seen as not inferior to Rio on the whole. I think Terry was helped by playing on a better defensive side for most of his career, and i think Rio at his best was slightly better, but on the whole i rate them on the same level
I hate this line of argument so much you can tarnish Vidic with the same argument. Every great defensive partnership has at least one CB willing to get dirty.
@giorno from memories Lippi played with Thuram as a RB when he used a back 4 and especially in 4-4-2 - most notably their CL campaign in 2003 where he played as a RB most of the time.
He played as RCB in a back 3 and also as in his favorite CB position. Of course not saying he played exclusively as a RB or something, but he spend a fair share of games in that position under Lippi.
He played as RCB in a back 3 and also as in his favorite CB position. Of course not saying he played exclusively as a RB or something, but he spend a fair share of games in that position under Lippi.
Ah, yes, that is true. It was sort of like what happened with Conte(at both juve and chelsea). Lippi started out one way, it didn't work so well, he changed things, it worked, he stuck with it. Still, it was the second half of 2002/03 season that Lippi began using the back 3 a lot. Thuram actually was used as a RWB on occasion.
Still, everybody knew he was adapted in that position out of convenience, an expedient, but it wasn't his natural position(even though he was great in it)
He was good but not as good as he was rated on here. He wasn't an out and out defender. He made too many mistakes to be absolute top quality. He was poor enough in the air for a big man and didn't get stuck in half as much as he should. He was great at certain aspects but he could have been so much better.
Agreed. He was pretty versatile and quick learner. Even in his Parma days and in at RCB he surged forward from time to time. I haven't seen him only on the left from what I can recall as emergency full back.
Second best defender of this generation, and absolute joy to watch. I think he isn't far off Nesta personally as his peak was at least as good as Nesta's even if it didn't last quite as long.
Best I've seen in my lifetime, and I find the assertion that he was a lesser player than Vidic laughable. Rio, after he came back from his drug ban, just seemed to find football way too easy.
I don't have great recollection of the likes of Baresi, but that is how far you would have to go back to find a better centre half in my opinion, or at least an undisputed 'better' centre half, as a case can be made for Nesta and Cannavaro I think. Maldini I see more as a left back.
I don't have great recollection of the likes of Baresi, but that is how far you would have to go back to find a better centre half in my opinion, or at least an undisputed 'better' centre half, as a case can be made for Nesta and Cannavaro I think. Maldini I see more as a left back.