Taking the obvious honest mistake on Djalma out of the equation, mobys side is more questionable than ours in terms of peaks at tournaments. Meazza simply did not play this role, and Stam is perhaps the most underwhelming CB pick in the whole draft. He was average at best in that WC.
Moby VS Mazhar - NT peak draft
- Thread starter Annahnomoss
- Start date
He has more absolutely top drawer performers though. Your side is peppered with great supporting cast but doesn't get even close to the quality that runs through his spine.
Neeskens looks like he just landed there by accident. Deserves a better home.
So far, it hasn't happened. I got an idea of the votes from @Arbitrium, and they don't look too favourable for us.
Anyways, I will continue playing out the match and hope that the voters actually start considering the change of votes once 1962 Djalma comes in.
Back on topic: what plan does Moby have in stopping Gérson from controlling the game? More importantly, there's so much talk about Moby's team controlling the possession, but we also have technically adept footballers at our end. Djalma Santos was excellent in possession in that final and allowed Brazil to settle and play their natural free-flowing football from the back. Same goes for Bossis who was a key player for France when they had possession of the ball. Both are excellent at retaining it under pressure, and both are very good at carrying the ball forward as well as distributing it to the more dangerous options.
Gérson himself will be able to dictate the game as well. I struggle to see how he'd get hounded out of the game when he has so many pressure relievers around him and when he has so many technical players who can bail themselves out of trouble (see Clodoaldo vs. Italy in the 1970 final, for example).
Alongside 3 of the most influential players of probably the greatest World Cup side of all time? Neeskens has landed in a mansion, whereas stam is in a ground floor basement unit with no windows.
Also worth mentioning that jairzinho is more influential in enabling Carlos Alberto to be at his peak in 1979 than the other way round.
So players like Zico and Jairzinho are only the supporting cast? The same Zico who scored 4 goals (T-3rd) and got 4 assists (2nd) in the 1982 World Cup as well as tearing apart such defensively adept teams as Argentina and Italy? The same Jairzinho who gave one of the best left backs ever in Giacinto Facchetti a torrid time as well as scoring in every round of the World Cup? That's not to mention a David Villa who spearheaded Spain's attacks and carried their goalscoring burden in the 2010 World Cup, as well as a Gérson who bossed midfields.
Yeah, Neeskens will have a really tough time here...
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He'll definitely do a great job there, but that's not where your problems lay. You need Bossis for width and he's against Lato who as the top scorer of WC'74 iirc. Whenever Bossis pushes up, there'll be space enough for him to exploit.
And Villa is pretty underwhelming in this context. Take a leaf from Aldo's book and play Zico as False 9.
Villa.......Zico.......Jairzinho
.....Gerson......Neekens.....
............Clodoaldo............
Going by the scoreline, you can get Neymar in too for Villa
And Villa is pretty underwhelming in this context. Take a leaf from Aldo's book and play Zico as False 9.
Villa.......Zico.......Jairzinho
.....Gerson......Neekens.....
............Clodoaldo............
Going by the scoreline, you can get Neymar in too for Villa
Total goals scored by team moby in selected tournaments- 11/12 (can't verify)
Total goals scored by team mazhar/arbitirum in selected tournaments-25
That's quite a difference.
Also, can someone show me anything other than Luis Suarez starting more than 2 games throughout Spain's 1964 campaign? Uefa site doesn't have him starting in the preliminaries
Total goals scored by team mazhar/arbitirum in selected tournaments-25
That's quite a difference.
Also, can someone show me anything other than Luis Suarez starting more than 2 games throughout Spain's 1964 campaign? Uefa site doesn't have him starting in the preliminaries
You're thinking names and not performances. Villa was immense in 2010, and Neymar WC is nowhere near denilsons copa. He's a much better sub and the reason I pushed for him, that tournament+ le tournoi is the reason he became the worlds most expensive player.
And you think Willi Schulz will struggle with reading Lato's movement? He was made for a match like this. Not only that, but keep in mind that I also have Clodoaldo who can cover the gaps when Bossis pushes up.
Keep in mind the energy levels of the midfield and defence. They will be able to keep up for the whole match.
Well feck my luck, had to get off work 5 hours later than normal today only ffs. I'll reply in a moment.
Of course no issues
Agree with this. Villa's a little under-rated - there would be no World Cup without his crucial interventions.
Just go back to work @Moby , nothing to see here
Fixed. Good sport Moby.
It hasn't really hadn't much of an impact in people's choices to be honest, otherwise Suarez two appearances would be scrutinized more (as good as they were)
BY FAR the worst player on the pitch given the criteria is japp Stam, he just didn't have that good a tournament. And the player most unfamiliar with the role required of him is Meazza. Two things, given the draft context, that really should be more influential in voting proceedings but they are being overlooked somewhat.
The gap in goal contributions is quite startling and again heavily in our favour. I feel that the overall point of the draft has been lost in this game, we have 3 stars from 1979 reunited and in neeskens and villa two undeniable stars of tournaments who carried burdens in different ways.
If this were An all time draft, I could accept the score line, but based on the mentioned tournament performances, the gap simply shouldn't be this big.
And the customary
Lovely side that from @aldo . Not a fan of Stam's 1998 performances and Meazza in a false 9 role is bit of an acquired taste but he does have two complete and excellent wing-forwards (esp Lato) whom I can see working well in this set-up. I was hoping Aldo would try to remake his Euros side with side-midfielders (something that I tried in the No Mates draft but didn't have the pool to do so) but I can see this working a treat too with Lato and Rensenbrink possessing excellent team ethic and being very good in possession.
Harsh on mazhar and Arbitrium, who have crafted a nice side but gone for Aldo as it stands.
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The most influential was Pelé by a long country mile. Take out Pelé and that 1970 side would have most likely fallen on its arse. Yes, they are supporting cast and that's no insult when the main star is Edson Arantes do Nascimento. Extraordinary performances from Jairzinho and Gerson, but I don't see your setup being conducive to replicating that.
See above. Villa was great around that time but I don't think he was particularly spectacular at the WC.
Zico definitely wasn't supporting cast, but I prefer him at Flamengo than with the canarinha personally.
I simply don't get the setup or how it brings the best out of anyone there.
I doubt he did as he was at Inter. It was rare back then for foreign-based players to take part in qualifiers.
I agree. A #9 is not mandatory when you have wingers who score a lot and cut inside.
30 minutes left until the match starts, so I'll be putting in my final comment for the next 6-7 hours.
For all of the recognition that Rensenbrink and Lato are getting (and they deserve it, no doubt), there is a reason why we have Le Grand Max and Djalma both starting. Both were excellent defence-first full backs who had a great reading of the game and astute defensive positioning. Both full backs allowed the more attacking full backs in their respective teams (Amoros, Nilton) to rampage forward more often.
Before anyone starts asking about why I have an arrow on Bossis, it is because we want to show that Bossis will be going forward on occasion to support attacks whilst Djalma will be staying back for much of the match like he naturally did in the 1962 World Cup. Willi Schulz is already adept at defending the inside left areas as he demonstrated in the 1966 World Cup (compilation to come when I get home). However, Bossis himself was very good at defending his flank, so in no way is this a piece of cake for Lato.
Contrast this to Marzolini vs. Jairzinho, which is a total mismatch to be honest. Marzolini already had trouble marking Jose Ufarte when Argentina played Spain in 1966, so I honestly struggle to see how he'll really deal with one of the best World Cup performers ever in Jairzinho. The lopsided approach also makes things difficult for Carlos Alberto, who'll have to continuously deal with the variety of threat on the left side, be it the movement and guile of Villa, the flair, close control, and quickness of feet of Zico, or the threat of crosses from Bossis. That's way too much for him to deal with, and I doubt that Lato will really track back that far to support Carlos Alberto.
For all of the recognition that Rensenbrink and Lato are getting (and they deserve it, no doubt), there is a reason why we have Le Grand Max and Djalma both starting. Both were excellent defence-first full backs who had a great reading of the game and astute defensive positioning. Both full backs allowed the more attacking full backs in their respective teams (Amoros, Nilton) to rampage forward more often.
Before anyone starts asking about why I have an arrow on Bossis, it is because we want to show that Bossis will be going forward on occasion to support attacks whilst Djalma will be staying back for much of the match like he naturally did in the 1962 World Cup. Willi Schulz is already adept at defending the inside left areas as he demonstrated in the 1966 World Cup (compilation to come when I get home). However, Bossis himself was very good at defending his flank, so in no way is this a piece of cake for Lato.
Contrast this to Marzolini vs. Jairzinho, which is a total mismatch to be honest. Marzolini already had trouble marking Jose Ufarte when Argentina played Spain in 1966, so I honestly struggle to see how he'll really deal with one of the best World Cup performers ever in Jairzinho. The lopsided approach also makes things difficult for Carlos Alberto, who'll have to continuously deal with the variety of threat on the left side, be it the movement and guile of Villa, the flair, close control, and quickness of feet of Zico, or the threat of crosses from Bossis. That's way too much for him to deal with, and I doubt that Lato will really track back that far to support Carlos Alberto.
Consider this: without Villa, Spain would have struggled to score goals at the 2010 World Cup. They weren't really blowing away the opposition in terms of the scorelines, and Torres was already in poor form. Villa was absolutely essential to Spain getting the goals they needed to reach the semi-final, and it was he who led the line by himself when Spain decided to go with a 1-forward approach in the semis and final.
Regarding Zico, that's your personal taste, but I honestly found him to be an exciting and effective player for Brazil in 1982, particularly in matches where they didn't have much oomph going forward (see Brazil vs. Scotland, Argentina vs. Brazil, and Italy vs. Brazil).
-------------------------------Team Moby--------------------------------------------------------Team Mazhar
BRAZIL
BRAZIL 70
I would remove a central midfielder and add somebody on the left: the sub you should make.
Who is on the bench for Mazhar/Arbitrium ?
Looking forward to it, think he is rather underrated myself.
He played in the away leg in the round of 16 tie against N-Ireland.
Spain won 1-0 after having drawed 1-1 at home. So, crucial win.
Didn't play apart from that until the final tournament (s-f and f).
But he stands with three apps, then - not just two.
I agree Villa was crucial for Spain in 2010, they hardly ever scored to begin with. The point is you can't compare that sort of striker performance with a Müller or MvB, for instance. He doesn't scream goals in the same way.
Zico had a great WC, my preferring him at Flamengo doesn't change that. I think a lot of what sets him apart as a deadly/high-scoring #10 overlaps with Villa, i.e. I don't see them as particularly complementary.
I've no idea what options you have on the bench, but I would have a long hard look at it.
I don't get why we get so bogged down in game-counting re: players that were evidently tourno stars AND we all know displayed the same excellent level at club level around that time. If Luis Suárez played two or three is irrelevant to me really, we all know what we are getting here, we all know what he was capable of over any number of games, what you would want to weed out is fluke performances aided by small samples.
There's far bigger issues to look into like who is doing what and how a team is really functioning. Or not.
Absolutely - I agree.
Same with the Schuster business. A non-issue.
What I look at is whether the player was on song - or not. His basic level being what it is - and then determine how much his level in the relevant tournament deviated from the norm, if it did so at all.
Special cases like Djalma '58 is something different, but like I said in the other thread he should've simply been ineligible if a single appearance is considered a bit of a pisstake.
But, yes, the number of matches is neither here nor there. It's something you can possibly use to back up an argument about an obscure player, or to illustrate a non-obvious point or other. But for huge players whose tournament performances are legendary (for good reasons) - it's pointless.
I think that is a misconception actually. Zico's playstyle was not as famously unselfish as Socrates but it wasn't far off. I mean if we didn't all see it, I doubt many would have said Socrates-Zico would have worked as well as it did even though on paper they both prefer similar areas of the pitch and offer similar skill sets
For David Villa, I think he is wonderful with Zico as at Flamengo during this era Zico played with a lot of players both strikers and left wing with movement similar to Villa who also liked a dribble. Just because some famous matches have Zico as the finisher of Socrates, its important to remember that Zico played that assister role with pleasure. For instance in '81 Zico had 45 goals but wasn't even Flamengo leading scorer, Nunes was with 48. Zico thrived in assisting as much as scoring. really wish assist and pre-assist were kept back then for Brazilian league because I bet Zico would have crazy stats.
Just look at this assist from Zico to Nunes in '80. I can see David Villa making this exact run
This is exactly why I wanted Zico in our team: he can be the scorer and the assist provider, and he'll love contributing to goals. I mean, there's no other reason that he would have had 4 goals AND 4 assists in the 1982 World Cup. The only reason he was seen as the main scorer of Brazil's side was because Éder played more of a left winger's role and Serginho was poor at scoring goals.
Just see Zico's wonderful assist to Socrates against Italy in that ill-fated 3-2 loss. Now imagine Zico doing that to Neeskens. On top of that, imagine Zico making the passes he would to Villa whilst both link up together beautifully!
I think that is a misconception actually. Zico's playstyle was not as famously unselfish as Socrates but it wasn't far off. I mean if we didn't all see it, I doubt many would have said Socrates-Zico would have worked as well as it did even though on paper they both prefer similar areas of the pitch and offer similar skill sets
For David Villa, I think he is wonderful with Zico as at Flamengo during this era Zico played with a lot of players both strikers and left wing with movement similar to Villa who also liked a dribble. Just because some famous matches have Zico as the finisher of Socrates, its important to remember that Zico played that assister role with pleasure. For instance in '81 Zico had 45 goals but wasn't even Flamengo leading scorer, Nunes was with 48. Zico thrived in assisting as much as scoring. really wish assist and pre-assist were kept back then for Brazilian league because I bet Zico would have crazy stats.
Just look at this assist from Zico to Nunes in '80. I can see David Villa making this exact run
I think more of a centreforward type would work best for Zico to both assist him and steal into the box to finish himself. Mind you, the bonus I see from Villa here is precisely that he can go wide like Eder did if needs be. That is, a classic CF would exacerbate the problem out on the left, but that's because the side has been constructed that way.
The current setup could work as a counterattacking one, but I don't see Moby's side as one that would be particularly vulnerable on the break. He would control the game in midfield rather than go all gung-ho and leave his backside exposed, that's how his spine and setup would go about the game. The achilles heel with counterattacking is you need to draw out the other side first, if you don't you are a bit fecked really.
I don't get what Clodoaldo is doing that Gerson and Neeskens aren't doing already, while Zico could do with more options and movement ahead to slice up that defence. I'd rather have a left winger/forward, no Clodoaldo and a more classic centreforward than Villa once his movement across the frontline isn't as necessary as it is now.
Clodoaldo provides the extra energy and tenacity to keep Moby's midfield unsettled. I want us to have a proper 3 vs. 3 so that our front 3 can play with total freedom. Neeskens here will be the ideal X-factor in our midfield as the box-to-box menace that he was in the 1974 World Cup when he scored 5 goals and was a constant attacking menace as well as a defensive monster.
We don't want to limit any of our X-factor players in any way, hence why we went with this current setup. If we went with Gérson and Neeskens, Neeskens would have to play a more limited role. Here, he has the freedom to bomb forward and contribute in the final third whilst not leaving us unprotected in the midfield. Villa already has his tendency to drift to the left, and this is exactly why we fielded him like this. What we wanted was unpredictability in our side. Carlos Alberto will have an easier time defending against an opponent that he knows he'll face on the wing. Here, he won't deal with an obvious left-wing threat, which will make things more difficult for both him and Stam (especially Stam). Plus, it will get the best out of Zico as it will allow him someone to assist for goals as well as be able to go for goal himself.
I guess all of what I just posted doesn't matter now. We're going to make a substitution and add a proper wide left threat into our team. Out comes Clodoaldo and in comes Denilson, one of the stars of the Copa America 1997.
@Annahnomoss
@Annahnomoss
@mazhar13 I'm not sure if that sub makes your side stronger to be honest, especially in midfield. If you're adding Denilson as a wide left, IMO Gerson should be the one making space with Zico already in your team. Clodoaldo brings more energy and steel in midfield.
Your teamsheet didn't really sell that particularly well. You seemed to have Gerson in some Pirlo role protected by Clodoaldo and Neeskens.
I see it differently, if you really think Stam is the weak link then you want to isolate him by pulling Carlos Alberto away rather than letting him tuck in and support him.
That's a good point actually. Particularly if you want to give Neeskens a bit more freedom.
Here's why denilson became the worlds most exciting player at the time, and subsequently the most expensive. Still so strange that it was Real Betis who signed him.
This 97 Brazil team was just incredible to watch.
Ah, of course, you just saw the team sheet and ignored the write-up! FYI:
Well, now you have that with Denilson on the left.
Substitution will only happen on 16 hr as per draft rulesI guess all of what I just posted doesn't matter now. We're going to make a substitution and add a proper wide left threat into our team. Out comes Clodoaldo and in comes Denilson, one of the stars of the Copa America 1997.
@Annahnomoss
I skim read uberlong writeups, but I did go back to look at the midfield specifically. X-factor, combining, description of basically what we all know they could do... It all sounds very defensive-oriented though (e.g. "take on anything coming their way").
It was only later in the thread you put forward Neeskens as pretty much having complete freedom to do as he wishes.
I never intended it to be like that. The example that you picked out specified that our team would be able to handle whatever team faced us both offensively and defensively. You only made it seem defensive because you saw Gérson in what you interpreted to be a Pirlo role and assumed that I would have two defensive-oriented B2B's.
Anyways, here's the Willi Schulz compilation that I promised. @Joga Bonito
I really admire this defensive performance. The man was everywhere and did a great job in sweeping up the Soviet attacks. If he had to face a 1-on-1 battle, he always won it. Whenever a pass would be played beyond the defensive line, he was always around to test the Soviets and hold them back. On the ball, he was also quite skilled. His passing was very good, and he would quite often pick out the attacking players with long, lofted diagonals or zipped ground passes.
I really admire this defensive performance. The man was everywhere and did a great job in sweeping up the Soviet attacks. If he had to face a 1-on-1 battle, he always won it. Whenever a pass would be played beyond the defensive line, he was always around to test the Soviets and hold them back. On the ball, he was also quite skilled. His passing was very good, and he would quite often pick out the attacking players with long, lofted diagonals or zipped ground passes.