Exactly.
Penalties vs Goals From Open Play
- Thread starter The Bloody-Nine
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Nik (@Rood) and Imran (@Annihilate Now!) discuss United's fantastic win away against Athletic Club in the semi-final of the Europa League.
They also pick out the positives of United's 4-3 loss away at Brentford, and Nik reviews a day out at Old Trafford watching Manchester United Women qualify for the Champions League.
But you answered your own question. A goalscorer can be threatening from open play, from the penalty spot, or from both. In your above example obviously the 30 in 30 scorer is more threatening from open play than the 20 in 30 scorer. Vice versa with penalties. It's when you're trying to combine the two that questions of relative worth come into the picture, but that question is subjective as far as aesthetics go.
Why? Also, what happens if the player is brought down in the box and has to go off injured? Who takes it then?
It's like people love to argue against imaginary posts.
And it's still happening.
There is a line of thought where the person who has won the penalty hasnt had enough time to fully clear their head and shouldnt take the penalty. I had this conversation with Wynton Rufer and he insisted the player fouled shouldnt take the penalty. Interesting thought coming from a striker
Great idea.
Practically every goal counts, whether a 40 yards screamer or a 2 yards tap in, a meek penalty or a dribble past 4 and shot.
All end up being counted as one goal.
It all depends on what you value when you rate a player. For many Gred Muller is the greatest striker of all time, because he was sensationally good inside the box, while there are some who consider Van Basten the best because of his skill and grace. While one can argue for Van Basten's grace and elegance along with his clinical finishing, the other also has point about Muller being someone who scored goals at neck breaking rate almost every competition he played in.
So at the end of the day, it is just opinion when discussing the player, but practically someone who scores more whether ugly goals or pretty, is some important.
All end up being counted as one goal.
It all depends on what you value when you rate a player. For many Gred Muller is the greatest striker of all time, because he was sensationally good inside the box, while there are some who consider Van Basten the best because of his skill and grace. While one can argue for Van Basten's grace and elegance along with his clinical finishing, the other also has point about Muller being someone who scored goals at neck breaking rate almost every competition he played in.
So at the end of the day, it is just opinion when discussing the player, but practically someone who scores more whether ugly goals or pretty, is some important.
Players that score lots of tap ins do so for a reason. A tap in can be just as brilliant as a player dancing through 5 defenders and slotting home a screamer.
I really disagree with the whole idea tap ins are "easy" that some seem to be saying. Being able to get into the right position for tap ins is one of the most difficult skills to develop.
Well one of the reasons I would be for it is because scoring a penalty would be more difficult.
It means that someone else is on penalty duty, so a striker who scores 30 goals from an open play is a better choice for any team, because even a bad penalty taker will score, say, 5 out of 10 penalties that hypothetically went to his team. It's not aesthetics.
Really?
The build up to a shot that scores a goal from a player dancing through a defence is the brilliant dribbling, a tap in can have a brilliant build up too. The ability to find space and be in the right space at the right time to score is just as an important skill as great dribbling.
This debate will only have value when football suddenly morphs into a sport in which you get extra points for the type of goal you score. Till then all goals are as valuable as each other. Its only us fans and pundits who look at certain types as more memorable.
And we overrate long range goals. Some are brilliant but, some are just someone blasting it when they ran out of options.
Not quite, you need to look at he fact did the taker of the penalty win the penalty and if he wasn't fouled would he have scored if he hadn't been fouled.
Let's hope that time never comes.
True, this things influence, but again, I doubt many top coaches will let a senior marquee locker room favorite top scorer candidate take many pens if he doesn't tuck them away with a high consistency. Hence Martial over Lukaku now.
A penalty is worth the same as any other goal, so the only reason for having this argument is when comparing the ability of goalscorers or teams - in which case the debate has merit.
For example, if two teams score the same amount of goals - say 60 - but one team has scored all of them from open play while the other has 15 penalties, it's valid to consider the team who scored all from open play to be the better offensive team.
Same with strikers - if two strikers have scored 30 goals a season, but one of them scored 10 penalties, the one who scored all of his from open play should be considered the better striker. The stats are the same, so on paper penalties are worth the same as any other goal, but I'd take the striker who scored all of his goals from open play every day of the week.
For example, if two teams score the same amount of goals - say 60 - but one team has scored all of them from open play while the other has 15 penalties, it's valid to consider the team who scored all from open play to be the better offensive team.
Same with strikers - if two strikers have scored 30 goals a season, but one of them scored 10 penalties, the one who scored all of his from open play should be considered the better striker. The stats are the same, so on paper penalties are worth the same as any other goal, but I'd take the striker who scored all of his goals from open play every day of the week.
But 15 penalties occur when offensive play that may have resulted in a goal is impeded in the box.
Not necessarily. Not every foul / handball in the box is denying a goal scoring opportunity.
It's just not as black and white as that. I mean you could probably argue that about 25 to 50% of penalties given actually shouldn't have been, or were debatable decisions. Then you also have plenty of penalties that are due to fouls and handballs where the attacking team wasn't actually in a goal scoring situation or creating a goal scoring situation.
If Player A takes penalties and scores 10 more goals than Player B, who doesn't take penalties, does that mean that Player A is worth 10 more goals a year than Player B? Obviously not. If it was Player B who was the team's designated penalty taker, he could score 8 or 9 goals from penalties. So the difference between the players is 1 or 2 goals a season, though that isn't reflected in simple goal stats. The same is true for goals/assists that come from free-kicks and corners.
It's a problem in terms of rating players (one player might thought to be a better striker than another merely because he takes penalties) and in terms of deciding which player to buy (someone might have recommended to buy Juninho because of all the goals he would get although we had Beckham to take free-kicks).
It's a problem in terms of rating players (one player might thought to be a better striker than another merely because he takes penalties) and in terms of deciding which player to buy (someone might have recommended to buy Juninho because of all the goals he would get although we had Beckham to take free-kicks).
Team B9.
given that some players are shit at taking penalties, some are shit in the air, some would be lucky to score a 30 yard curler, not sure what the point really is about discounting some goals over others. You have certain players be your primary penalty takers precisely because they are better at it than other players on the team. So maybe the guy who has 30 goals with none from penalties is just shit at penalty kicks.
We could have judges on the side holding up cards indicating what rating they give each goal, then adjusting the scoreboard accordingly.
It can also be down to luck at times, when the ball bounces off of other players and lands at your feet for a tap in.
International week threads are awesome
It has nothing to do with International week.
I am talking about players who consistently score tap ins. If they are always in the right position for tap ins it shows great movement and understanding.
On a slightly different note, I made a thread on pens a couple of years back saying I don't think they were 'fair'.
I think the 18 yard box can seem both very close and very far from goal. There are many scenarios in the box where there isn't anything close to a goalscoring opportunity, and a free shot at goal is often a punishment that doesn't fit the crime.
I understand the need for them to prevent people just taking others out anywhere near goal - but there could be a clip on the edge of a crowded box on a player going away from goal that results in his team a goal down. It's not necessarily a just price to pay.
Maybe not the best example, but our penalty against CSKA last week wasn't really the most dangerous situation. Mkhi was just about inside a crowded box and next thing - we have a free shot.
I don't pretend to have the answers or a better alternative, but I certainly think many cheap goals are conceded as a result of pens.
I think the 18 yard box can seem both very close and very far from goal. There are many scenarios in the box where there isn't anything close to a goalscoring opportunity, and a free shot at goal is often a punishment that doesn't fit the crime.
I understand the need for them to prevent people just taking others out anywhere near goal - but there could be a clip on the edge of a crowded box on a player going away from goal that results in his team a goal down. It's not necessarily a just price to pay.
Maybe not the best example, but our penalty against CSKA last week wasn't really the most dangerous situation. Mkhi was just about inside a crowded box and next thing - we have a free shot.
I don't pretend to have the answers or a better alternative, but I certainly think many cheap goals are conceded as a result of pens.
The Dippers would love you for this
Like free throws, the fouled player should be made to take the penalty unless they're off injured.
They count just as much. Tap ins, headers, first time shots are mentally easier than penalties. You're just going on instinct. Being 1v1 with some time to think is more comparable to penalties because your head can get in the way.
Players have different strengths and penalties aren't excluded from that. Just outside the box, especially around the arc, I'd want Messi over anyone else. He finishes those shots more comfortably than he does penalties. 1v1 I'd want Luis Ronaldo over anyone else in history. Imo the easiest way to score is to dribble past the keeper when he's charging at you. However a charging keeper unnerves many players but not Ronaldo. With momentum on his side there's no one that would stop him. Messi could also be mentioned in that regards but he doesn't really gets the same opportunites because teams sit so far back against him.
Is it easier to score a penalty then score a goal like Valencia's? Yes but that doesn't really matter at the end of it. A goal is a goal and you want someone that's confident on the spot who doesn't care about the keeper and just puts it where he wants it. In training every United attacker can do that but in a match their heads get in the way of their ability.
Players have different strengths and penalties aren't excluded from that. Just outside the box, especially around the arc, I'd want Messi over anyone else. He finishes those shots more comfortably than he does penalties. 1v1 I'd want Luis Ronaldo over anyone else in history. Imo the easiest way to score is to dribble past the keeper when he's charging at you. However a charging keeper unnerves many players but not Ronaldo. With momentum on his side there's no one that would stop him. Messi could also be mentioned in that regards but he doesn't really gets the same opportunites because teams sit so far back against him.
Is it easier to score a penalty then score a goal like Valencia's? Yes but that doesn't really matter at the end of it. A goal is a goal and you want someone that's confident on the spot who doesn't care about the keeper and just puts it where he wants it. In training every United attacker can do that but in a match their heads get in the way of their ability.
Exactly this. Players with the ability to get into the position to score a lot of tap ins are far less common that players with the ability to score the vast majority of penalties they take.
Let's say a club is looking at signing a new striker, and has two potential targets, both have scored 25 goals in last season. Is it not relevant if one of them scored 10 from the spot, and the other striker's goals were all from open play?
Not that I think penalties shouldn't count towards the Golden Boot or anything like.
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It was a joke mate. When International week is in session this place does seem to be devoid of all quality. (No offense)
This sounds like the security guard telling me his job is as hard as the CEO, as he has to stay awake and alert, and stand on his feet.
James Milner scored 7 goals in the league last season which is a good return for a midfielder. Would you consider him to be a goal scoring midfielder because all of his goals came from the spot ?