We've got talent but do we have leaders?

[f_to_z]

In recent years and especially with Mourinho our manager I have noticed that our first team has many good talented players. Very technical with lots of potential. Some of them are considered stars. With this talent you would think a team would perform better. I always thought why are we always under performing or sometimes go on a bad run of games. The reason I believe is that we do not have strong character players or leaders. Players with strong egos not afraid of fans, media, even the opponent team. Players that have metal toughness with a fighting spirit even if things are getting tough and losing matches.

To further strengthen my case as an example. Notice that when we are winning a match our players are full of confidence and play great football, but if we are losing a match and nothing is clicking you see the players lose confidence and perform badly. Then if we lose 2 more games it becomes even harder to come back with a win since the players mentality is fragile and weak they start to self doubt themselves. Even though they were playing great football two weeks ago. This is the first symptom of a weak character and low self confidence.

We are living a live example now this season without Ibrahimovic and specifically without Pogba. He was the leader in the team with an ego and strong character carrying the team mentally encase we are down. Now he is injured and I am searching for a substitute leader in the team but cannot find one. You might argue Dea Gea but he is very quiet to have an impact, you might say Valencia and I would agree to a point but even he sometimes gets some self doubt. Carrick is another choice but he adds more of a calm composure than leadership and plus he is not playing anymore.

Remember the teams Sir Alex used to build? They were full of strong characters. You would have at-least 6-7 players in the first team with big egos. Some of them did not even have great talents and skills. Sir Alex new that when the waters got rough they are the personalities needed to keep the ship sailing. Players like, Keane, Neville, Giggs, Ferdinand, Evra, Ronaldo, vidic, Rooney, Scholes, Nistelory, Park_ji-sung, Tevez and the list goes on. Now some of these players did not have great skill like Neville and Park-Ji-Sung but they had great character and would give 100% each game not matter what the circumstances. These are the type of players I feel we are missing so much in the team. We keep trying to find a solution for our team under-performing and it seems we keep missing this major problem.

I think Mourinho should start looking for more players that are leaders. Players with mental toughness rather than just pure talent. Even he sometimes said that the team attitude was very bad in some matches with the confession of some players. Right now we have 2 maybe 3 in the team and that is surely not enough to have a title challenge team. Every Season hings will always get tough and results will not always go to plan therefore having this calibre of players will get us through these tough times and keep getting results.

 

[el3mel]

That's a great point that I totally agree. We lacked any leadership on the pitch for few years now, even when LVG bought Bastian it didn't work out as it was expected. The team needs a player on the pitch that's able to calm the players on losing and push them forward to get a draw rather than losing their confidence and start to play even worse. Such things were main reasons in us doing several comebacks during SAF era.

From the current team I see only Matic, Pogba and Zlatan that can have this character.

 

[bosnian_red]

Nah we have enough leaders IMO. Problem is just the style not being one that aims to dominage a lot of games and make a lot of chances for us. Or team selections being too negative which results in few chances being created. This "leader" thing is BS, what leaders do City have in their squad? We have more players with that type of personality, you need it in some cases but a lot of times, the right type of players on the pitch will get the job done.

 

[BluesJr]

Our bouncebackibility is shockingly bad. This is probably a combination of confidence, tactics, and lack of leadership on the pitch. When other big teams have a bad result, more often than not they go on to win the next one and go on a run.

A bad result or performance seems to hang over us for weeks, which severely affects our momentum and it’s what has left has 8 points behind currently.

 

[adexkola]

Nah we have enough leaders IMO. Problem is just the style not being one that aims to dominage a lot of games and make a lot of chances for us. Or team selections being too negative which results in few chances being created. This "leader" thing is BS, what leaders do City have in their squad? We have more players with that type of personality, you need it in some cases but a lot of times, the right type of players on the pitch will get the job done.

If he was fit it would be Kompany.

Sometimes leadership isn't about rah-rahing all over the place, it's about taking responsibility on the pitch for what you've been assigned to do, even when everything around you is sub-optimal.

 

[el3mel]

Nah we have enough leaders IMO. Problem is just the style not being one that aims to dominage a lot of games and make a lot of chances for us. Or team selections being too negative which results in few chances being created. This "leader" thing is BS, what leaders do City have in their squad? We have more players with that type of personality, you need it in some cases but a lot of times, the right type of players on the pitch will get the job done.

Aguero
KDB
Silva

 

[Robbo's Shoulder]

I think it's a good point, we do need players to stand up when things aren't going well and drive the team forward. As for City, we will see when they hit a bad spell

 

[prtk0811]

Ibrahimovic is the leader out there, matic close second.

For becoming leaders , you need characters out there who hates loosing and hurts them internally, the attitudes of lingard pogba mkh really don't set up the dressing room atmosphere Iike that, that's where ibra and mourinho comes in.

Hope the likes of rashford and martial spend more time with ibra than pogba or Lingard.

 

[Ødegaard]

Aguero
KDB
Silva

Hardly leaders. Quality players, but not leaders.

 

[bosnian_red]

If he was fit it would be Kompany.

Sometimes leadership isn't about rah-rahing all over the place, it's about taking responsibility on the pitch for what you've been assigned to do, even when everything around you is sub-optimal.

Kompany is never fit though and hasnt been for most of the past 5 years... i barely even count him as a player these days. But i know what you mean, and I dont think we lack that. What we lack in a way is enough quality in some positions to be confident enough to not panic when not everything goes your way, and trust your ability, trust your teammates and the play style to keep playing that way even if you go a goal down. A big problem with that way of thinking for us stems from Mourinho and his tactics. In tough games he normally sets out to get a draw, shut the game down or sneak a win. Not really with set plans of how to create chances and dominate games. So if we go a goal down, something has to change as the gameplan is out the window, and that has to come from the manager for how to do that, as doing what you were told from the start doesnt work anymore. Thats a big downside to Mou's style, compared to others who always go with a plan to try and win, even if not the favourite.

 

[el3mel]

Hardly leaders. Quality players, but not leaders.

No, they're leaders with experience and ability to carry the team on their own when being down. They're players that their teammates can pass the player to when in terrible position and trust them to do the job.

 

[bosnian_red]

Aguero
KDB
Silva

Are they really leader types though? Especially aguero, because he sure as feck doesnt show that for Argentina. What he is (and pogba/ibra are because people mention them for us) are world class players or used to be, with loads of talent on the ball so they dont panic under pressure and can still he composed to on the ball to do what they need to. Thats not really anything to do with personality. Thats just being more talented and having the confidence in your abilities to know you are more talented then the others.

 

[el3mel]

Are they really leader types though? Especially aguero, because he sure as feck doesnt show that for Argentina. What he is (and pogba/ibra are because people mention them for us) are world class players or used to be, with loads of talent on the ball so they dont panic under pressure and can still he composed to on the ball to do what they need to. Thats not really anything to do with personality. Thats just being more talented and having the confidence in your abilities to know you are more talented then the others.

This is exactly the kind of leaders we need to have on the pitch. This is definition of leadership for me.

 

[bosnian_red]

No, they're leaders with experience and ability to carry the team on their own when being down. They're players that their teammates can pass the player to when in terrible position and trust them to do the job.

They trust them to give them to ball because they are quality players who wont feck it up all the time or you know can make something out of nothing. Rooney had way more "leadership qualities" then most players, but he did pretty much feck all the last few years, as he lost the ability he had.

 

[redIndianDevil]

Aguero
KDB
Silva

So basically all the good players are leaders in your opinion?

 

[Ødegaard]

No, they're leaders with experience and ability to carry the team on their own when being down. They're players that their teammates can pass the player to when in terrible position and trust them to do the job.

Maybe for the 'leading by example' stuff, but in that sense we have Zlatan, Valencia, Matic and more ourselves. They are hardly players to talk to their team-mates to help them up their level if they go down. Aguero has a long history of turning vile, similar to Dele Alli, whenever it doesn't go his way.
Leading personalities at city might be Kompany, Otamendi and Fernandinho, although that's more guesswork as I haven't followed them closely recently.

 

[el3mel]

So basically all the good players are leaders in your opinion?

I didn't mention the likes of Walker, Fernandinho, Sterling, Sane or B.Silva and I thing they're good players, so, no.

 

[King7Eric]

Are they really leader types though? Especially aguero, because he sure as feck doesnt show that for Argentina. What he is (and pogba/ibra are because people mention them for us) are world class players or used to be, with loads of talent on the ball so they dont panic under pressure and can still he composed to on the ball to do what they need to. Thats not really anything to do with personality. Thats just being more talented and having the confidence in your abilities to know you are more talented then the others.

This is a football pitch we are talking about. We are not talking about needing a leader for a country in a crisis. On the football field a good leader is one who leads by example, someone who doesn't lose his sh*t in a pressure situation and is someone who can tell his teammates what to do under pressure. So in that regard players like KDB, Silva, Aguero etc are leaders and pretty good ones at that. I agree with most of what the OP wrote, except that I don't think Pogba is a great leader under pressure. He seems to lose his composure in a pressure situation.

 

[el3mel]

Maybe for the 'leading by example' stuff, but in that sense we have Zlatan, Valencia, Matic and more ourselves. They are hardly players to talk to their team-mates to help them up their level if they go down. Aguero has a long history of turning vile, similar to Dele Alli, whenever it doesn't go his way.
Leading personalities at city might be Kompany, Otamendi and Fernandinho, although that's more guesswork as I haven't followed them closely recently.

That depends on the definition of leadership to everyone, but for being a leader is keeping yourself calm and help your teammates to keep themselves calm on the pitch, too, being a player always trusted by your teammates to take the ball when everything is going shite and do the job. Only Matic, Zlatan and Pogba are filling this criteria for me, and we have been missing 2 of the 3 during that last difficult part of the season.

 

[redIndianDevil]

Remember the teams Sir Alex used to build? They were full of strong characters. You would have at-least 6-7 players in the first team with big egos. Some of them did not even have great talents and skills. Sir Alex new that when the waters got rough they are the personalities needed to keep the ship sailing. Players like, Keane, Neville, Giggs, Ferdinand, Evra, Ronaldo, vidic, Rooney, Scholes, Nistelory, Park_ji-sung, Tevez and the list goes on

It's not about leaders that even technically decent players play well in a setup, it's all down to coaching, a bang average midfielder like Delph is looking good as a LB in City because of the tactics and the coaching. So even if you buy so many "leaders" and play them with shite tactics they would look clueless too.

In recent years and especially with Mourinho our manager I have noticed that our first team has many good talented players. Very technical with lots of potential. Some of them are considered stars. With this talent you would think a team would perform better. I always thought why are we always under performing or sometimes go on a bad run of games. The reason I believe is that we do not have strong character players or leaders. Players with strong egos not afraid of fans, media, even the opponent team. Players that have metal toughness with a fighting spirit even if things are getting tough and losing matches.

Yes our players have potential but are they coached well? The reason we look clueless against teams who press and harry us is because of poor coaching, our players just don't play as a team.

 

[Ødegaard]

That depends on the definition of leadership to everyone, but for being a leader is keeping yourself calm and help your teammates to keep themselves calm on the pitch, too, being a player always trusted by your teammates to take the ball when everything is going shite and do the job. Only Matic, Zlatan and Pogba are filling this criteria for me, and we have been missing 2 of the 3 during that last difficult part of the season.

Then you think we need better players overall, not necessarily leadership. Especially if both Matic and Pogba qualify (although a leader type of both our definitions would be good in defense).

 

[bosnian_red]

This is exactly the kind of leaders we need to have on the pitch. This is definition of leadership for me.

Thats not leadership in any way, thats just being talented and believing in your own talent (usually as a result from being one of the most talented players your whole life). Its really not leadership what we lack. We just lack talent on the pitch, especially without pogba. Too many of our players arent very good on the ball, or dynamic players who you can trust to be consistently good on the ball. Valencia we trust in a lot of ways, but his final ball has never been there, so thats his downfall. We play young at left back, have smalling in defence pretty often who is useless on the ball, have lukaku up top who isn't talented on the ball, have mata sometimes who is pretty much a non factor for physicality, mkhitaryan who is the least consistent player ever, and then 2 very talented youngsters who are normally our only attacking threat. Pogba when fit is a game changer for us, and Ibra despite his age still offered a lot because of his talent. But we either dont pick the right players who are talented and smart on the ball (blind at left back for example), or just dont have enough of them.

 

[el3mel]

Then you think we need better players overall, not necessarily leadership. Especially if both Matic and Pogba qualify (although a leader type of both our definitions would be good in defense).

We need better players in some positions whatever the points we're talking about, but notice we have other good players as Lukaku, Rashford and Martial but I didn't mention them as leaders on the pitch ( nor do I think anyone ) as they're very good players but they're not the kind of players that keep their head focused and calm on losing and under pressure. So we need good players for sure, but with some toughness and ability to keep calm and composed under pressure and when losing, and able to do the job.

 

[el3mel]

Thats not leadership in any way, thats just being talented and believing in your own talent (usually as a result from being one of the most talented players your whole life). Its really not leadership what we lack. We just lack talent on the pitch, especially without pogba. Too many of our players arent very good on the ball, or dynamic players who you can trust to be consistently good on the ball. Valencia we trust in a lot of ways, but his final ball has never been there, so thats his downfall. We play young at left back, have smalling in defence pretty often who is useless on the ball, have lukaku up top who isn't talented on the ball, have mata sometimes who is pretty much a non factor for physicality, mkhitaryan who is the least consistent player ever, and then 2 very talented youngsters who are normally our only attacking threat. Pogba when fit is a game changer for us, and Ibra despite his age still offered a lot because of his talent. But we either dont pick the right players who are talented and smart on the ball (blind at left back for example), or just dont have enough of them.

That depends, define leadership ?

 

[Ødegaard]

We need better players in some positions whatever the points we're talking about, but notice we have other good players as Lukaku, Rashford and Martial but I didn't mention them as leaders on the pitch ( nor do I think anyone ) as they're very good players but they're not the kind of players that keep their head focused and calm on losing and under pressure. So we need good players for sure, but with some toughness and ability to keep calm and composed under pressure and when losing, and able to do the job.

I'd say Rashford qualifies based on my understanding of your view. If anything we also always give it to one of them in hopes of them creating something, so we're just down to quality (or in their case consistency) I believe.

Either way, we disagree on what is leadership qualitieas, but that's unimportant as I now understand more what you put into the role of leading, which again doesn't make your list seem as weird to me.

 

[el3mel]

I'd say Rashford qualifies based on my understanding of your view. If anything we also always give it to one of them in hopes of them creating something, so we're just down to quality (or in their case consistency) I believe.

Either way, we disagree on what is leadership qualitieas, but that's unimportant as I now understand more what you put into the role of leading, which again doesn't make your list seem as weird to me.

Like I said it depends on everyone's definition of leadership on pitch, so it's normal to disagree on the players qualifying for this role. No problem.

 

[bosnian_red]

That depends, define leadership ?

I guess if you go by the lead by example route, but thats still largely dependent on systems. Aguero like i said is awful for Argentina, silva for large parts of many seasons just went missing and didnt do all that much (but is class under Guardiola as you'd expect). Hazard brings these types of qualities for chelsea when he's there and its noticeable when he isnt there, they lack someone to pick up the ball and go at players and take on the creative burden. Dont tell me you think he's a leader in any way though. Can a player be a leader in your eyes for one team and not another? Wouldnt it then just make it stem from the manager and system he picks?

Its hard to describe it, but imo theres a big difference between just your most talented players "leading by example" and players actually having leadership qualities. Or a team having a group of leaders vs an incredibly talented team who know they can outplay most teams.

 

[el3mel]

I guess if you go by the lead by example route, but thats still largely dependent on systems. Aguero like i said is awful for Argentina, silva for large parts of many seasons just went missing and didnt do all that much (but is class under Guardiola as you'd expect). Hazard brings these types of qualities for chelsea when he's there and its noticeable when he isnt there, they lack someone to pick up the ball and go at players and take on the creative burden. Dont tell me you think he's a leader in any way though. Can a player be a leader in your eyes for one team and not another? Wouldnt it then just make it stem from the manager and system he picks?

Its hard to describe it, but imo theres a big difference between just your most talented players "leading by example" and players actually having leadership qualities. Or a team having a group of leaders vs an incredibly talented team who know they can outplay most teams.

Hazard is definitely a leader for me. Don't forget that he's even the captain of his national team, who has many other great players.

Anyway, as I said it differs from one to another depending on their definition of leadership on football pitch which is one of those things in football you'll always find debates about their meaning.

 

[KirkDuyt]

Can Matic be a leader? I don't know why, but holding mid fielders always seem like the leader type to me. Blind seems intelligent, but isn't good enough to be a leader. You don't have to be world class to be a leader, but I do think you need to be at least a regular starter. De Gea seems a little timid, Zlatan is a lunatic, which is not a leadership trait.

I'd go for Matic I guess.

 

[André Dominguez]

Can Matic be a leader? I don't know why, but holding mid fielders always seem like the leader type to me. Blind seems intelligent, but isn't good enough to be a leader. You don't have to be world class to be a leader, but I do think you need to be at least a regular starter. De Gea seems a little timid, Zlatan is a lunatic, which is not a leadership trait.

I'd go for Matic I guess.

That leadrship is something very specific. A good example is Nuno Espírito Santo, who is currently Wolves manager. When he was at Porto as a player, he was one of the most respected players at their dressing while at Porto, and he didn't played that much (he was a substitute for both Baía and then Helton).

And João Moutinho, who is quite a short player, is also a regular shout for capitain or sub-capitain in every club he's been.

Simão Sabrosa was a winger, also short, and was Benfica's "capitain" (even when he wasn't wearing the armband).

We probably lack a player that is ambitious, determined and that can instill union inside the group, creating a fantastic team spirit which is more important than tactis when poo hits the fan. Sometimes I feel that our plays don't stick together as they should, as a team.

 

[noodlehair]

I actually think our mentality has improved massively since Jose took over, and don't think leadership is a massive problem anymore. We haven't had any blistering comeback as such, but when we lose now, even if we play really terribly, we always go down fighting and usually with the opposition clinging on to some degree. Even Chelsea ended up hanging on at the end and that was despite them being comfortably the better team for most of the game.

I think what we're missing to go with it, and make the difference, is a bit of ruthlessness and game intelligence. When you watch other teams like City, or Chelsea. If they are on top, they score. If the other team shows a weakness, they attack it without mercy.

We play a team with a teenager in goal, who walked the ball into his own net the last time we played them and looked uncomfortable whenever the ball was in the air, and we keep taking short bloody corners. Do you think if we put a teenager in goal the opposition would be dumb enough to not test them?

You go into games against City, Chelsea etc. knowing you have to be right on it or they will capitalise as soon as they find the weak spot. You go into a game against United, knowing they have bags of quality and fight, but might spend half the game pratting around in the centre circle or running into blind allies, or getting 50 million corners so they can boot them all at the near post.

 

[André Dominguez]

I actually think our mentality has improved massively since Jose took over. We haven't had any blistering comeback as such, but when we lose now, even if we play really terribly, we always go down fighting and usually with the opposition clinging on to some degree. Even Chelsea ended up hanging on at the end and that was despite them being comfortably the better team for most of the game.

I think what we're missing is a bit of ruthlessness and game intelligence. When you watch other teams like City, or Chelsea. If they are on top, they score. If the other team shows a weakness, they attack it without mercy.

We play a team with a child in goal, who walked the ball into his own net the last time we played them and looked uncomfortable whenever the ball was in the air, and keep taking short bloody corners.

You go into games against City, Chelsea etc. knowing you have to be right on it or they will capitalise as soon as they find the weak spot. You go into a game against United, knowing they have bags of quality and fight, but might spend half the game pratting around in the centre circle or running into blind allies, or getting 50 million corners so they can boot them all at the near post.

I have to slightly disagree here. We usually have difficulty to turn things arround when games are going into a dead end, but I agree that the team mentality is much better at the match start. We are a more proactive team than we were, no doubts about that.

 

[Jim Beam]

Nah, wouldn't agree. If you look at the team, there are strong characters in every part, even without Pogba.

De Gea, Bailly, Valencia, Matic, Herrera, Lukaku. None of them would go under mentally weak category imo. You won't find many young players with a better mentality than Rashford also. Bigger problem is the ability of some players, absence of our best player on the ball and in some part, our tactical set-up in recent month.

 

[noodlehair]

I have to slightly disagree here. We usually have difficulty to turn things arround when games are going into a dead end, but I agree that the team mentality is much better at the match start. We are a more proactive team than we were, no doubts about that.

I agree we have difficulty, but I don't think it's down to a lack of leadership or character. If we lacked those things we'd be losing games 2-0, 3-0 etc. whenever we were second best in a game. This literally never happens now.

I just don't think we're smart enough under those pressure situations. Maybe that is leadership, but I don't think it's the sort of thing that's fixed by putting a Roy Keane in the starting line up. I think it partly comes down to inexperience and partly just similar to last season, where there is a lack of composure in our over all game. We just seem to hack at things an awful lot. If a team pressure's us, we hack at the ball...if we're pressuring a team but need a goal, we hack at the ball. Cool heads are missing when it comes to the business moments or periods in games.

 

[Foxbatt]

I heard that Lukaku had an almighty go at his team mates after the Chelsea loss. I have a feeling that he is going to be a good leader on the pitch. Someone on the pitch that can light up a rocket up the rest of the players a'rse. We are used to players fighting each other and now it seems that we are too calm and relaxed. There is no leadership certainly in the defence and certainly DeGea has to take some of the blame as I never see him shouting or organizing his defence as Peter used to do. By shouting at them he also makes them aware of their positions to the opposing players and we now see our defenders going for the same ball too much for my liking.

 

[Sing you a song]

I have to say I have been absolutely staggered by our abysmal choice of captain in recent seasons particularly the likes of Rooney even though his form and influence was deteriorating with every game , Smalling and Valencia both hardly known for being vocal on the pitch ( I'm not even sure I have ever heard Valencia speak ! )
Neither are top class and neither are inspirational .
Why on earth Zlatan wasn't captain last year is beyond me he is a natural leader a talismanic figure , you could see how everyone at the club respected him , a proven winner known all around the world , never short of a comment , great sense of humour immense will to win , leads by example , dynamic ,a formidable opponent all those things so let's give the armband to Chris Smalling !! Just beyond belief .
As soon as Pogba returns he should be given the armband and told to become the talismanic leader he is capable of being , he should be the face of the club for the next 10 years ,
He is the only one with anywhere near the presence and personality ( plus of course he is by far our best player ) of Zlatan . Let's have a charismatic leader rather than a footballing nobody

 

[VeevaVee]

Not really. It feels like most of our players are pretty passive and let the game just happen around them. Matic, Pogba, and Ibra are the only ones who aren't, and I think maybe Rojo when we see more of him regularly. Lukaku eventually too, but he needs good showings to influence more, which needs others to turn up.
We used to have nearly an entire team that could command the game and take responsibility for how it pans out. Feels like men of yesteryear vs mostly boys that we have now. Even when the Co92 etc were young they took it on their shoulders.

 

[Jib]

Zlatan is a leader and maybe Pogba in 1-2 years but not now ( even if he's my favorite player )

 

[davidmichael]

The days of clubs having multiple leaders in the squad for me are well gone. I remember us having Robson, Bruce, Cantona, Schmeichel, Ince, Keane, Hughes, Pallister and Irwin ALL being in the squad at the same time but since Rio, Vidic and Evra all left we’ve not had a standout leader.

 

[Cliche Guevara]

How many players do we have who are at their peak, have been at the club for many years, and are serial winners?

The answer is none.

We have too many players who are either still developing; are at or beyond their peak who aren’t top class; or who are just delighted to be in the team and happy to keep out of trouble.

We need more people to take responsibility, to know what’s needed and when, and to be able to do it.

The problem right now is that’s going to take time to produce, so we need to another couple of big-game players until the younger guys emerge as a settled and experienced United team. Zlatan returning will probably be very beneficial.