Injury Prone Central Defenders

[Pogue Mahone]

With the latest mysterious long term injury to Phil Jones I was trying to remember what life was like when we had central defenders who weren't made of glass. Ideally, you'd like a CB to play every league game but let's set the bar at 30+ to represent someone who is more or less ever present.

Rio = five times (out of 12 seasons)
Vidic = three times (out of 8 full seasons)
Steve Bruce = 8 out of 9
Garry Pallister = 7 out of 9
Jaap Stam = 2 out of 3 (ignoring final season, when he was sold very early on)
Mikael Silvestre = 7 out of 9

And now we have our current crop:
Chris Smalling (by far our least injury prone CB) has managed it just once (in 8 seasons)
Phil Jones = 0 out of 7
Bailly = 0 out of 2
Rojo = 0 out of 4
Blind = 1 out of 4

Stats from here (wiki doesn't have season by season appearances for some of the older players)

They say that great teams are built from the back so I reckon you'd have a good case for arguing that the cliff we've fallen off in the post-Fergie era is mainly down to being forced to constantly chop and change in the one area of the pitch where picking a consistent team is arguably more important than any other.

Discuss.

 

[JohnLocke]

The first lot of defenders are of far higher calibre than the second set, just to double down on them being made of glass.

 

[Red_toad]

Tough on Mike to include his understudy period to Vidic and Rio.


Silvestre was a left back for a lot of his tenure at United.

 

[Trizy]

What makes it worse is they rarely get injured going in for a tackle, it's when they're training or running. Soft feckers.

 

[Massive Spanner]

A bit shocked by Vidic. For some reason I remembered him as basically always being fit.

 

[Giggsy92]

Tough on Mike to include his understudy period to Vidic and Rio.

Yeah, looking at his first season alone he was in 31 matchday squads. Looking at his injury history I imagine 2011/12, 2013/14 and 2014/15 will be similar stories.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

A bit shocked by Vidic. For some reason I remembered him as basically always being fit.

Both Rio and Vidic were usually not far off the 30 mark, even in seasons where they didn’t surpass it. They both averaged 25+.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Tough on Mike to include his understudy period to Vidic and Rio.


Silvestre was a left back for a lot of his tenure at United.

Kind of. Although he’s still failed to hit 30+ league games in all but one season since they both moved on.

 

[Gordon S]

Feels like a curse. Bailly fecking up his knee, Rojo dislocating his shoulder, Rojo fecking up his knee, Smallings toe and so on. So many injuries that just seems down to bad luck.

 

[settembrini]

Smalling's fitness record is fine and has been fine for a long time.

13/14: 30/38 match day squads.
14/15: 30/38 match day squads.
15/16: 35/38 match day squads.
16/17: 22/38 match day squads.
17/18: 28/30 match day squads.

Jones is a joke re: injuries. Hopefully he will be finally moved on this summer.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Smalling's fitness record is fine and has been fine for a long time.

13/14: 30/38 match day squads.
14/15: 30/38 match day squads.
15/16: 35/38 match day squads.
16/17: 22/38 match day squads.
17/18: 28/30 match day squads.

Jones is a joke re: injuries. Hopefully he will be finally moved on this summer.

Can you do the matchday squad thing for Rio/Vidic?

 

[RedSky]

Totals taken from Transfermarkt, but it gives you a rough idea of how injury prone are current players are.

Total Days Missed Injured at United:
Jones - 581 days
Rojo - 463 days
Smalling - 256 days
Bailly - 159 days
Blind - 130 days

Days Missed Season Average:
Rojo - 116 days
Jones - 83 days
Bailly - 80 days
Blind - 33 days
Smalling - 32 days

Total Games Missed Through Injury:
Jones - 105 games
Rojo - 71 games
Smalling - 50 games
Bailly - 34 games
Blind - 26 games

Games Missed Season Average:
Rojo - 18 games
Bailly - 17 games
Jones - 15 games
Blind - 7 games
Smalling - 6 games

Number of Injuries:
Jones - 16
Rojo - 8
Smalling - 8
Bailly - 3
Blind - 3

*Games Missed are All Competitions

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Is Lindelof about to do something unprecedented and go a whole season without getting injured? Admittedly mainly by not playing but with our record of defenders getting injured in training that’s still an achievement!

 

[Mailo]

Diabolical. On average Jones is almost out 3 months every season.
Enough is enough. Rojo extremely unlucky with freak injuries.
No consistency at all.

 

[settembrini]

Can you do the matchday squad thing for Rio/Vidic?

https://uk.soccerway.com/players/nemanja-vidic/756/
https://uk.soccerway.com/players/rio-gavin-ferdinand/179/

These links show their starts + games they were on the bench for each league season. Vidic ofc missed quite a few games due to yellow and red cards and Ferdinand missed the first 8 months of 2004 because he forgot his drug test. Both had excellent fitness records in their prime though, Ferdinand gave us four years with virtually no injuries after he returned from his suspension and Vidic only had a couple over a similar time frame.

 

[kundalini]

If you keep the same group of central defenders for an extended period of time, they should develop the same understanding that they would gain playing as a pair over the course of a season. I don't see a problem with using our current five, while allowing Tuanzebe to develop out on loan.

When you go for a first choice pairing, you are vulnerable to one of them losing form or being unavailable for a few matches due to a minor injury.

 

[Web of Bissaka]

Having Rojo, Jones and Bailly is like..
At its worst, just one player available (a big IF, if one is available) or none at all.
At its best, having all three available is... time limited, expired soon.

 

[Web of Bissaka]

Smalling's fitness record is fine and has been fine for a long time.

13/14: 30/38 match day squads.
14/15: 30/38 match day squads.
15/16: 35/38 match day squads.
16/17: 22/38 match day squads.
17/18: 28/30 match day squads.

Despite the popular belief which is a myth, impressive enough. Smalling does get many injuries but often always make himself available for games.

 

[Sandikan]

A bit shocked by Vidic. For some reason I remembered him as basically always being fit.

Both him and Ferdinand seem low compared to the likes of Bruce and Pallister.

But then the latter pair weren't in the age of rotation for one thing.
And we'd also need to see the exact totals of the former pair, as they may well have been in the 25-29 level when not hitting 30.

By the time you throw in a couple of light knocks, rotations and suspensions, 25-29 out of 38 isn't too bad.

 

[wolvored]

Totals taken from Transfermarkt, but it gives you a rough idea of how injury prone are current players are.

Total Days Missed Injured at United:
Jones - 581 days
Rojo - 463 days
Smalling - 256 days
Bailly - 159 days
Blind - 130 days

Days Missed Season Average:
Rojo - 116 days
Jones - 83 days
Bailly - 80 days
Blind - 33 days
Smalling - 32 days

Total Games Missed Through Injury:
Jones - 105 games
Rojo - 71 games
Smalling - 50 games
Bailly - 34 games
Blind - 26 games

Games Missed Season Average:
Rojo - 18 games
Bailly - 17 games
Jones - 15 games
Blind - 7 games
Smalling - 6 games

Number of Injuries:
Jones - 16
Rojo - 8
Smalling - 8
Bailly - 3
Blind - 3

*Games Missed are All Competitions

On these stats alone Jones and Rojo should be the first two shown the door.

 

[beergod]

We've had injury prone central defenders for ages, this group is just far more injury prone. We used to have at least one crisis period every season where we would end up with a makeshift/half fit pairing under Fergie in the latter years of his reign.

 

[cyril C]

We've had injury prone central defenders for ages, this group is just far more injury prone. We used to have at least one crisis period every season where we would end up with a makeshift/half fit pairing under Fergie in the latter years of his reign.

Leicester City set a bad example on how you can survive 1 season of Champion without injury. In real life you always need 4 CB, to cover for injury and suspension, and a bit of fatigue. When people claim you must have stability in back 4, which is wrong, because you always need about 5-6 players rotating at the back 4 positions. Perhaps the only thing that need to be stable, is on the system of defending, don't switch between 352 and 433 every 2 games, but stay with the same back 4 system, such that players will know their role instantly whenever they play.

 

[Theonas]

Our treble winners in 1999 had Jaap Stam as an automatic starter with Henning Berg and Ronny Johnsen making 22 appearances each. Real won 3 of the past 4 CLs with Pepe and Varane rotating for a spot next to Ramos who himself made 32, 23 and 28 appearances in those three seasons. The idea that you need a constant centre back partnership if you want to have a successful team is just something pundits who usually played their football in the '80s keep mentioning when they cannot actually analyze the tactical flaws of a defense.

 

[MadDogg]

We've had injury prone central defenders for ages, this group is just far more injury prone. We used to have at least one crisis period every season where we would end up with a makeshift/half fit pairing under Fergie in the latter years of his reign.

Yep, all the way back to at least 06/07 we've had that central defensive crisis at least once a season. Indeed in that season it likely cost us the CL as we should have beaten Milan and set up the final against Liverpool.

Actually now I think about it, we may not have had it in 15/16 when we played Smalling-Blind all season.

But this is why I don't understand anybody who wants to sell Smalling and keep Jones and/or Rojo. Nevermind the fact that I do rate Smalling higher than those two, but even if I didn't he's the only one we can rely on to be fit most of the time. Doesn't matter if we are talking about somebody in our starting line-up or our back-up to our starters, if they can't stay fit they are of absolute no use. The only way in hell Jose sells him and keeps the other two is if we buy a definite starter and then Smalling asks to leave.

 

[van Nistelrooy]

Number of Injuries:
Jones - 16

What an absolute joke the scenario with Phil Jones is. I know injury is a lot down to bad luck, but some players are just simply injury prone and will consistently pick up knocks.

Why do we continue to tolerate this? You have to sympathize to an extent, but is Jones anywhere near good enough to be allowed such time on the sidelines? I'd definitely say no. I'm fed up of keeping players like Jones on our books in hope that they'll come back from injury and become a 30+ game a season player. It just won't happen.

Despite the club being a business machine where we're only too happy to fleece the fans, United seem happy to continually pay the wages of a player who is a crock and will never become the rock in defence that we have expected. Keeping Jones because he is still in his 20s and English is not a good enough reason for me.

 

[Oldyella]

On these stats alone Jones and Rojo should be the first two shown the door.

Always baffled in the clear out threads when people nominate Smalling as the cb to move on.

 

[RedSky]

Our treble winners in 1999 had Jaap Stam as an automatic starter with Henning Berg and Ronny Johnsen making 22 appearances each. Real won 3 of the past 4 CLs with Pepe and Varane rotating for a spot next to Ramos who himself made 32, 23 and 28 appearances in those three seasons. The idea that you need a constant centre back partnership if you want to have a successful team is just something pundits who usually played their football in the '80s keep mentioning when they cannot actually analyze the tactical flaws of a defense.

The concerning thing in regards to Jones is that his injury record is averaged over 7 seasons. He's not had a long term injury either, the longest injury is 59 days. Rojo has been out for 211 days, 84 days and 59 days alongside a few smaller injuries.

Days Missed Season Average:
Rojo - 116 days
Jones - 83 days
Bailly - 80 days
Pepe - 69 days
Varane - 56 days
Blind - 33 days
Smalling - 32 days
Ramos - 26 days

Games Missed Season Average:
Rojo - 18 games
Bailly - 17 games
Jones - 15 games
Pepe - 12 games
Varane - 8 games
Blind - 7 games
Smalling - 6 games
Ramos - 4 games

The difference being is that next to our bunch of crocks, Pepe, Varane and Ramos aren't that bad. Ramos for a start is significantly better than an of our CBs and he has the best injury record out of all those CBs. Varane who is regarded as a sick note on this forum has a perfectly acceptable injury record.

 

[Theonas]

@RedSky I am in total agreement that especially in the case of Jones, it is far and beyond. His injury record makes him unreliable even if he was as good as Baresi. My post was more about the general notion that great teams need a central pairing that needs to start consistently when so many great teams did not have that. It is totally acceptable to have 3 or 4 defenders rotating throughout the year.

 

[RedSky]

@RedSky I am in total agreement that especially in the case of Jones, it is far and beyond. His injury record makes him unreliable even if he was as good as Baresi. My post was more about the general notion that great teams need a central pairing that needs to start consistently when so many great teams did not have that. It is totally acceptable to have 3 or 4 defenders rotating throughout the year.

Ah gotcha. My mistake.

 

[el3mel]

Won't say Bailly is injury prone. He was quite unlucky this season with this groin (or ankle, don't remember) surgery. Smalling is our most reliable defender because he's always there.

I have grown tired of Jones. We have only played him in the league this season to conserve him and he still got about 2 months of mysterious injury again.

 

[SteveW]

Yep, all the way back to at least 06/07 we've had that central defensive crisis at least once a season. Indeed in that season it likely cost us the CL as we should have beaten Milan and set up the final against Liverpool.

Actually now I think about it, we may not have had it in 15/16 when we played Smalling-Blind all season.

But this is why I don't understand anybody who wants to sell Smalling and keep Jones and/or Rojo. Nevermind the fact that I do rate Smalling higher than those two, but even if I didn't he's the only one we can rely on to be fit most of the time. Doesn't matter if we are talking about somebody in our starting line-up or our back-up to our starters, if they can't stay fit they are of absolute no use. The only way in hell Jose sells him and keeps the other two is if we buy a definite starter and then Smalling asks to leave.

I'm with you on this. Smallish has been our only consistent defender for a while. The stick he gets is crazy. Gave away one fk on the half way line against Newcastle weeks ago and is still getting abuse for it. All the while his partner is having 2 crazy lapses a game and being lauded. As it stands he's our only CB we can rely on to be fit and actually defend consistently.

 

[SteveW]

With the latest mysterious long term injury to Phil Jones I was trying to remember what life was like when we had central defenders who weren't made of glass. Ideally, you'd like a CB to play every league game but let's set the bar at 30+ to represent someone who is more or less ever present.

Rio = five times (out of 12 seasons)
Vidic = three times (out of 8 full seasons)
Steve Bruce = 8 out of 9
Garry Pallister = 7 out of 9
Jaap Stam = 2 out of 3 (ignoring final season, when he was sold very early on)
Mikael Silvestre = 7 out of 9

And now we have our current crop:
Chris Smalling (by far our least injury prone CB) has managed it just once (in 8 seasons)
Phil Jones = 0 out of 7
Bailly = 0 out of 2
Rojo = 0 out of 4
Blind = 1 out of 4

Stats from here (wiki doesn't have season by season appearances for some of the older players)

They say that great teams are built from the back so I reckon you'd have a good case for arguing that the cliff we've fallen off in the post-Fergie era is mainly down to being forced to constantly chop and change in the one area of the pitch where picking a consistent team is arguably more important than any other.

Discuss.

It's strange. 3 of our current CBs are pretty rash in their tackling though. A factor?

 

[haram]

Jones is a fecking joke.

 

[Theonas]

Ah gotcha. My mistake.

The OP was about injury proneness so it's my bad in that regard. Anyway, I also think that Vidic and Rio have really clouded some of our fans judgement of what makes a top team. I mean before them from around 1997 to 2007, the only really really unquestionably top defender we had was Stam. The others were the likes of Berg, Johnsen, Silvestre, Brown, May, and a past it Blanc. None of those would be considered world class defenders by any stretch. During that period we still managed to win 5 titles and a CL. It seems a bit like when Keane left and everyone assumed we can't be successful until we have a like for like and that the likes of Fletcher and Carrick could not possibly be considered replacements. It's with every club though. Bad times arrive and minds automatically turn to the last successful period with position for position direct comparisons.

 

[sunama]

Won't say Bailly is injury prone. He was quite unlucky this season with this groin (or ankle, don't remember) surgery. Smalling is our most reliable defender because he's always there.

I have grown tired of Jones. We have only played him in the league this season to conserve him and he still got about 2 months of mysterious injury again.

I think it was last season when Jose challenged our defenders (specifically Smalling and Jones), for declaring themselves injured, when they weren't actually injured and could play (with some discomfort).
Smalling raised his game and I do remember him playing through a match, while injured (LCFC, I think it was).
Jose would've loved that.
I also remember Rojo was bleeding on the touch line and wanted to change his shirt, as his current shirt was covered in blood.
Then we have Jones...he pulls funny faces at every opportunity and doesn't seem to have the "run through brick walls" mentality of Rojo and Smalling.

Personally, I feel that we need to let Jones run down his contract and let another club take him on, as a free agent, who will be on a pay as you play contract. He just isn't of the standard expected from a MUFC defender.
And in his place, we should bring in another defender or promote from the youth squad.

 

[Amar__]

Jones is basically living here based on couple of good games per season. And even that is just from last two seasons under Mourinho, before that he's had couple of seasons where he didn't impress even in games when he was available. Even under Mourinho he was missing the most important periods of both seasons. How on earth did he stay here for that long is a mystery to me. And no doubt we are going to give him a new contract(what's the situation with his contract anyway?).

 

[el3mel]

I think it was last season when Jose challenged our defenders (specifically Smalling and Jones), for declaring themselves injured, when they weren't actually injured and could play (with some discomfort).
Smalling raised his game and I do remember him playing through a match, while injured (LCFC, I think it was).
Jose would've loved that.
I also remember Rojo was bleeding on the touch line and wanted to change his shirt, as his current shirt was covered in blood.
Then we have Jones...he pulls funny faces at every opportunity and doesn't seem to have the "run through brick walls" mentality of Rojo and Smalling.

Personally, I feel that we need to let Jones run down his contract and let another club take him on, as a free agent, who will be on a pay as you play contract. He just isn't of the standard expected from a MUFC defender.
And in his place, we should bring in another defender or promote from the youth squad.

I still see a good defender in Jones but his injuries issues don't seem to get resolved any time soon whatever we make. If we're going to sell one defender it must be him. Get a good defender who is available most of times like Smalling instead of having a good defender who misses half of the season every year.

 

[wolvored]

Yes agree with a lot of you on here getting rid of injury jones would be the first thing Mou should do out of any of the defenders. Cant rely on him at all. I had to laugh when he said a couple of years ago he couldnt understand and hated why the press thought he was injury prone.

 

[Van Piorsing]

Jones is basically living here based on couple of good games per season. And even that is just from last two seasons under Mourinho, before that he's had couple of seasons where he didn't impress even in games when he was available. Even under Mourinho he was missing the most important periods of both seasons. How on earth did he stay here for that long is a mystery to me. And no doubt we are going to give him a new contract(what's the situation with his contract anyway?).

Expiring in 2019. Not looking good, especially when situation isn't changing a one bit whatsoever.

Same old, same old.

 

[Who gives a...]

The fact that Smalling has been our most fit and consistent CB this season speaks volumes about our current CB situation.

The whole of the back four is just so uninspiring.