England Discussion | Finish 4th

littlepeasoup

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Nothing of the sort has been happening.

But if you create a fantasy and repeat it to yourself enough times, it'll almost be like it's true.
Agree completely. The media does what the media in this country has *always* done, overhype small successes, and massively dramatise failures, but to suggest the media and the English team are synonymous is just silly, especially with this group of players.

People can misinterpret playing without fear with arrogance all they want, but it doesn't make it true. I don't think England are the best team still left in the competition, but I couldn't be prouder of them, come what may.
 

Dante

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Except they're not. For every pundit/ex player/journo saying what a great opportunity this is to get to a final there's one also saying to not get carried away and take it a game at a time.

I've spent half the day today driving to various sites in my job listening to radio coverage of last night and the vast majority of it is very measured re England's chances and the hopes of progressing whilst acknowledging that it's a superb opportunity to do so. I didn't hear anyone saying Sweden will be easy (quite the opposite) and I doubt very much that anyone in that England camp will be saying it too.
Very much this.

In the aftermath of the Panama game, the pundits were being extremely cautious and dampening of expectations. But because one of them used the word 'incredible' about the result, it apparently proved that they were being arrogant.

If you're got an axe to grind, you'll inevitably only remember the bits that prove your point even when they're heavily couched. And if no proof is forthcoming, you'll make it up as a scenario that seems feasible in your own mind.
 

endless_wheelies

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Anyone else think we will rotate substantially for the game, probably to the extent most people thought we would against Belgium?

The likes of Alli/Lingard/Sterling/Young will likely be dead by half time in the heat of Samara, and God forbid for their own sakes we should make it through to face Croatia in another three days' time.

Rashford & co should still be enough to beat Sweden if we're on it.
 

Revan

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I've done an 180 on England. Want them to win. I thought that they showed character and mental toughness against Colombia when things started not going their way. Previous iterations would have shit their pants and either lose on extra time or be awful on penalties, while this team was confident.

And while the media are awful, Southgate seem to not listen to them and knows that complacency has been the downfall of England many times. Taking every match as it comes, not underestimating the opposition, no arrogance, no dream of glory at this stage. Which is the right way to approach things.
 

Dante

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Agree completely. The media does what the media in this country has *always* done, overhype small successes, and massively dramatise failures, but to suggest the media and the English team are synonymous is just silly, especially with this group of players.

People can misinterpret playing without fear with arrogance all they want, but it doesn't make it true. I don't think England are the best team still left in the competition, but I couldn't be prouder of them, come what may.
We're a country where a common refrain from the terraces is:

And it's xxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxx FC
They're by far the greatest team
The world has ever seen

And nobody who's singing that believes it for a second.

Self-deprecation/self-aggrandisment go hand in hand with each other. Throw in a healthy dose of irony and sarcasm, and you get the British sense of humour.

If you want to take the British sense of humour with a straight face, more fool you.
 

littlepeasoup

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We're a country where a common refrain from the terraces is:

And it's xxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxx FC
They're by far the greatest team
The world has ever seen

And nobody who's singing that believes it for a second.

Self-deprecation/self-aggrandisment go hand in hand with each other. Throw in a healthy dose of irony and sarcasm, and you get the British sense of humour.

If you want to take the British sense of humour with a straight face, more fool you.
I honestly don't think I'd be able to live my life without sarcasm. :lol:
 

Classical Mechanic

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This is the second time I've seen someone post this in the last 24 hours. Seriously who are these people that were predicting Panama or Tunisia would qualify over England? I never seen it once and quite frankly am worried that there's seemingly so many mentalists out there.
Can't see England passing group stage with Jess and Sterling as creative outlets. Wilshire and Dier aren't very inspiring either. Hope there's more in the locker for England otherwise it will be like previous competitions.
How ever you slice and dice, it is such a shit team and you have an even shittier manager on top of that. I would be surprised if you got out of the group.
On who will knock us out

Group stages, mediocre team
Panama, after England will lose their first game against Tunisia
Tunisia in the group stage.
Themselves. Draw 2 games in a row and face a must win game against Belgium, guess what.
Can’t be bothered finding anymore.
 

7even

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I’m not seeing. Southgate and the players are grounded. They know Sweden are an excellent team and will take some beating just like Colombia did.

The England camp have learned from past mistakes. 2006 for example when the players were like rockstars or something with their WAGS having massive parties In Baden Baden. That type of culture doesn’t exist anymore. Nobody is getting elevated. If we lose against Sweden it will have nothing to do with what The Sun newspaper or Pat Nevin say.
Except they're not. For every pundit/ex player/journo saying what a great opportunity this is to get to a final there's one also saying to not get carried away and take it a game at a time.

I've spent half the day today driving to various sites in my job listening to radio coverage of last night and the vast majority of it is very measured re England's chances and the hopes of progressing whilst acknowledging that it's a superb opportunity to do so. I didn't hear anyone saying Sweden will be easy (quite the opposite) and I doubt very much that anyone in that England camp will be saying it too.
England will not have had a good tournament if they blow this chance to make the semi-final. Beating Tunisia and Panama and winning on penalties versus a James less Colombia does not constitute progress. No reason England can't win though and they are more than capable of beating Croatia or Russia too. Massive opportunity, they really have had a dream route (By comparison Brazil have played Switzerland, Serbia and Mexico and will need to beat Belgium, France/Uru).
Correct.

I sometimes think when people refer to "the English media" it's a very narrow minded definition that doesn't go beyond the sensationalist tabloid nonsense.



England could win the bloody thing and there'd be a queue on here to say they don't deserve it just like they didn't in 1966.:lol:
This is the beauty, you don’t even notice it yourself when you get carried away. Read the last sentence again if you don’t believe me @Barca84.

Southgate is a clever manager and you will find sensible pundits who tries to keep you grounded but wait and see what the mindset will be on Saturday morning. Time can sometimes be a bitch.

All of you, and probably the players too, are balanced people when it doesn’t matter. But future glory and golden opportunities is like alcohol, it kicks in when you least expect it. I’m not telling any of you that English mentality are worse or that your media is foolish, all I’m saying is that we are all humans and human nature tells me that it’s easier to be a underdog then favorites. English media will set the tone. You have seen this before, haven’t you?
 

Classical Mechanic

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This is the beauty, you don’t even notice it yourself when you get carried away. Read the last sentence again if you don’t believe me @Barca84.

Southgate is a clever manager and you will find sensible pundits who tries to keep you grounded but wait and see what the mindset will be on Saturday morning. Time can sometimes be a bitch.

All of you, and probably the players too, are balanced people when it doesn’t matter. But future glory and golden opportunities is like alcohol, it kicks in when you least expect it. I’m not telling any of you that English mentality are worse or that your media is foolish, all I’m saying is that we are all humans and human nature tells me that it’s easier to be a underdog then favorites. English media will set the tone. You have seen this before, haven’t you?
It is easier to be an underdog but Sweden hyping up this position smells of insecurity. Perhaps that will be your undoing.
 

Djemba-Djemba

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There's an article in the Guardian covering the Swedish media reaction to facing us in the next round.

One Swedish journalist says England will arrogantly expect to beat Sweden, and that's why Sweden will win.

:lol:

Accusing us of arrogance for thinking we'll win and then saying he expects Sweden to win.
 

Dante

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You're being an emotionless robot who seems to not understand excitement and people getting carried away, or simply wanting to be positive and believe.
The English media is easily available and understandable to many non-English supporters. That's why it comes under the microscope so much.

But if you look at any other country in the world, the level of hyping is just the same.
 

Djemba-Djemba

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Every other country is allowed to be positive and optimistic about their team.

Unless it's England, in which case it's arrogant.

That seems to be the argument of some posters on here.
 

Judas

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Imagine how much stick a media would get in a country if it never backed its teams to be successful. It would be bonkers.

I'm sure the Swedish media is absolutely bursting with people saying they'll beat us.
 

7even

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You're being an emotionless robot who seems to not understand excitement and people getting carried away, or simply wanting to be positive and believe.
Why do you think I’m not understanding your excitement? I would be the same in your shoes.

It is easier to be an underdog but Sweden hyping up this position smells of insecurity. Perhaps that will be your undoing.
I expect Sweden to lose so any other outcome will be a welcomed positive feeling but apart from my negativity you can be right. I have seen signs of over confidence even among the most balanced pundits so we have our problems too. But judging from the past our mentality is more balanced then yours. Trust me.

I didn't know it was possible to be such a smug underdog.
Why make it personal? If you win the WC it will be well deserved and I will be happy for you.
 

Classical Mechanic

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Imagine how much stick a media would get in a country if it never backed its teams to be successful. It would be bonkers.

I'm sure the Swedish media is absolutely bursting with people saying they'll beat us.
One Swedish pundit says our players are spoilt children so they’ll win.
 

0161_UNITED

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I absolutely do not understand the infatuation with “the media” or “the pundits”. The papers will come up with sensationalist headlines to catch attention, and of course ex-England players on the telly aren’t going to say, “It’s a rubbish team, and you’re wasting your time even watching this team”.

We put up with this same crap throughout an entire Premier League season and take it all with a grain of salt (except the nutters who get all riled up about pundits - Sour Souness and Dickface Summersby excepted - they do deserve scorn and ridicule) but suddenly when it’s about England, the media and pundits suddenly have some sort of mesmerizing power that can cause you to dislike England, or affect the team chemistry? Bollocks, I say. People aren’t droning on about “I hate Chelsea because of the media” or “Gary Neville’s analysis means United are arrogant and will lose the next match”. We’d think such nonsense is fecking crazy.
 

Classical Mechanic

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But judging from the past our mentality is more balanced then yours. Trust me.
Did you watch last night? We lost the lead in injury time after being comfortable for most of the game. That’s a major blow which would usually see you favour the equalising team to go on and win it. As it was we managed to win our first penalty shoot out since 96, first in 6. Our lads looked composed and hit great penalties under massive pressure and won.

I thought that showed a fantastic mentality, all things considered.
 

norm87cro

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Well as far as the media goes its pretty hectic in Croatia as well. The media think Croatia has a good draw to the final. And since there is a potential Croatia - England semi it's within the topic. In football terms it's probably the match of a generation for both teams (if they get through the QF offcourse). And I would probably fancy England to win the whole thing if not for the midfield that has been the worst im years. It's just not good enough to impose itself against top opposition and Croatia have a very strong midfield.
 

Barca84

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This is the second time I've seen someone post this in the last 24 hours. Seriously who are these people that were predicting Panama or Tunisia would qualify over England? I never seen it once and quite frankly am worried that there's seemingly so many mentalists out there.
Me for a start. Lots of people suffering from post Iceland PTSD had reached that point.
 

7even

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Did you watch last night? We lost the lead in injury time after being comfortable for most of the game. That’s a major blow which would usually see you favour the equalising team to go on and win it. As it was we managed to win our first penalty shoot out since 96, first in 6. Our lads looked composed and hit great penalties under massive pressure and won.

I thought that showed a fantastic mentality, all things considered.
Agree that English players showed good mentality to turn the penalty shootout around but I was talking about the difference between English and Swedish media. But let me say this first. Recently Swedish media has lost so much credibility it’s unreal. Everything is political. A fair balanced view is almost impossible to find in these days and time.

Sadly our media is heading in the same direction as yours and this isn’t a good thing. But back to football.

Sweden has a history of being underdogs, that’s part of the Swedish set up. Without it the manager couldn’t justify 25-30% possession, long balls and a rigid 442 system. When Zlatan was around the NT tried to play more offensive and take control but as you probably know it didn’t work. Today (last weeks and so on) the Swedish newspapers and pundits makes references between the Zlatan era and today’s set up. It’s trendy to dislike everything connected to his style and mentality. This is how bad it is and most of it is underlying xenophobia and uncomfortable to witness.

So the Swedish media makes a point of the team being “Swedish”, that includes being humble and everything is all about the team. When the media talks about Andreas Granqvist it isn’t all about his football abilities, it’s more about his humble personality and what a great leader he is. From my perspective it’s over the top and sometimes just political makeup to justify their own beliefs.

Hopefully if my predictions are correct the Swedish media will start to hesitate about our chances and your will do the opposite. The Swedish team needs that because if your players are humble and focused you will win the majority of times, so we need you to lose your mind a little bit. That’s where your media will help us, I think.
 

TheReligion

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Oh totally, and I'm glad England are through, but other than the fact Colombia were less sportsmanlike, it's hard to see where England deserve it. They were totally ineffective against a really poor Colombia side. Without the various penalties England have gotten (rightly - but not from what I'd call goal preventing fouls), they'd be out the world cup.

England are playing tidy football, but the chances aren't coming.
Don't think that's true at all.

England were the better team against Colombia and deserved to win under extreme provokation. Not sure how anyone of sound mind can say otherwise.
 

Classical Mechanic

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Agree that English players showed good mentality to turn the penalty shootout around but I was talking about the difference between English and Swedish media. But let me say this first. Recently Swedish media has lost so much credibility it’s unreal. Everything is political. A fair balanced view is almost impossible to find in these days and time.

Sadly our media is heading in the same direction as yours and this isn’t a good thing. But back to football.

Sweden has a history of being underdogs, that’s part of the Swedish set up. Without it the manager couldn’t justify 25-30% possession, long balls and a rigid 442 system. When Zlatan was around the NT tried to play more offensive and take control but as you probably know it didn’t work. Today (last weeks and so on) the Swedish newspapers and pundits makes references between the Zlatan era and today’s set up. It’s trendy to dislike everything connected to his style and mentality. This is how bad it is and most of it is underlying xenophobia and uncomfortable to witness.

So the Swedish media makes a point of the team being “Swedish”, that includes being humble and everything is all about the team. When the media talks about Andreas Granqvist it isn’t all about his football abilities, it’s more about his humble personality and what a great leader he is. From my perspective it’s over the top and sometimes just political makeup to justify their own beliefs.

Hopefully if my predictions are correct the Swedish media will start to hesitate about our chances and your will do the opposite. The Swedish team needs that because if your players are humble and focused you will win the majority of times, so we need you to lose your mind a little bit. That’s where your media will help us, I think.
See, I don’t think a nations media has anywhere near as much influence as you do on how a team performs on the pitch. In the case of Messi maybe or the individual treatment of Raheem Sterling maybe. But just the general noise about the tournament I don’t think it plays a significant part, unless the camp is dysfunctional in the first place.
 

Haddock

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Pekerman, Falcao and Maradona are acting like clowns with their conspiracy theories. They were atrocious throughout and acting like a bunch of thugs, yet try to blame it on the ref and England. Pathetic really, them lot are a bunch of very sore losers.
Colombia were awful, should have been a man down and Pekerman might be spouting crap but the fact is that John Stones was very lucky to not to be sent off. To my mind he left his leg over Falcao's head like Beckham in 98. By the letter of the law he should have walked (the same for Layun vs Brazil). Ashley Young's was even worse, a clear red in most premier league games. He's very lucky he went down. And if England lost last night, you'd be reading in depth profiles about the MLS ref's incompetence. He was incompetnt btw, should have been 3 reds in that game.
What level is that? What did this Croatian team ever do apart from a good performance against the worst Argentinian team in recent memory? Modric is maybe the best midfielder in the world and certain the best one still involved and Rakitic is also brilliant but apart from those two, we are talking about a Liverpool defender who has been mocked all season, a decent winger at the fourth team in Italy and a striker who is a decent option for rotation at a top club.

Don't get me wrong, I would not be surprised in the least if England lose to them but that would be because of England's problems that we have been accustomed to for many years and not because Croatia have a higher ceiling or can perform to a higher level or anything. They have two brilliant individuals, 3 decent ones with the rest playing at a much lower level than the majority of the English ones.
I'd like to dispute this. A League winning keeper and centre half (Vida) never mind what this sub rates the leagues they play in. Kovacic would start for most top teams, Rebic is an excellent player whose recent highlight was scoring twice in a DFB Pokal final vs Bayern. The 'decent option' striker you mention played for bloody Bayern Munich and Juventus and he's got more big match experience than all of England's squad put together. On the coaching staff is Ivica Olic who has incredible experience and has won nearly everything at club level. Even Redknapp's old mate Corluka is a league winner with Lokomotiv Moscow. Two midfielders for Real, One for Barca, Two at Inter. I'd say they've got bags of experience and quality. And they too are coming off a Penalty shootout victory where their two best players scored having previously missed in an important QF in 2008. So please, a little respect for the Croats. Their players have achieved quite a bit.
It'll be an awful match IMO.
Sweden specialise in defending deep and counter attacking, winning set pieces along the way. A team of well disciplined spoilers.
England will be pretty washed out after yesterday's epic and will face a long transfer to Samara where they'll be playing in the afternoon heat.
Yeah this game has 1-0 after extra time or Pens written all over it.
 

Frank Grimes

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Plenty of people were predicting they wouldn't get out of the group and going on recent history nobody could be confident of them doing so. On that basis they have already had a decent tournament.
Plenty of people are stupid. Panama and Tunisia were never finishing ahead of England, basically the way the draw was QF's is the minimum England should have expected pre tournament(that was the place all bookies had them most likely to finish). They still failed to beat either Belgium or Colombia, seems to me that expectations dropping will be the only reason to laud this as a successful World Cup, especially if they throw away such a great opportunity to progress further.

Reach the semi finals and that will obviously be different but you can't deny they have had a dream route.
 

Tomuś

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Not this again. Who the hell predicts English NT not to progress from the group consisting of Panama and Tunisia. Smacks of 'well, it's already good, lads' attitude should anyone laugh at you.
 

Tomuś

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We have decent enough replacements for those three if they are out anyway, so no big concerns.
True. As good as Young's been, Rose is perfectly adequate replacement. It's just Young's winning mentality and big games know-how that stands out for me. Footballing-wise there isn't that much difference.
 

jmaggio

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The fact Sweden play 4-4-2 is going to be interesting. I feel we'll be able to deal with their two forwards, but out wide our wing backs are going up against 2 unless we can keep their full backs pushed back. If we manage to do that I think our midfield 3 could run the show, however Alli did look like his legs had gone towards the end yesterday and I think Loftus Cheek will come on at some point vs Sweden.