Books A Song of Ice and Fire (Books) | TV show? What TV show?

[Cheesy]

I think that is very likely, and it might be that the reason GRRM invented Dance of Dragons was to be a foreshadowing for Danny vs Aegon. No idea what will be Lannisters and Tyrells goal on it, but it might weaken Danny considerably to the point that she will need Lannisters army for the final fight.

Another wildcard is Stannis. Do we believe that he'll lose to Ramsey?

Not in the books, no. His army seems well-placed to take Winterfell, and we know the northerners like Manderly are actively plotting against the Boltons. I suspect Stannis' victory (if he achieves it) will be hard-achieved and will greatly dent his fortunes, leading to the eventual burning of Shireen in the long-term. If they go like the show, Ramsay may kill Roose as Stannis takes Winterfell, and flea to the Dreadfort, where he potentially comes up against a resurrected Jon who smashes what little forces he has left. Stannis through burning Shireen alienates the Northerners and is eventually either defeated by Jon or something like that. So many pieces to be resolved there compared to the show though. A fascinating plot but arguably too much going on. That's before I've even mentioned Rickon, Davos or Theon.

 

[Cheesy]

Feck, I had erased that entire plot from my mind. The writers really need lynching.

Felt like the moment the show properly jumped the shark to an extent. Field of Fire was excellent but their attempts to resolve certain plots, put the pieces together etc got more and more messy after that.

 

[Revan]

I don't think Stannis is going anywhere for the moment, as I recall the show writers didn't like the character and so were eager to kill him off (in the lamest way possible as it turned out), while I get the feeling that Martin is quite fond of him (as am I actually). So I can see him defeating Ramsey in the first half of WoW.

Yeah, apparently D&D disliked the actor, and as consequence, totally misunderstood Stannis' character. I also believed that he is going to defeat Boltons, though no idea what would happen with him after it. The problem with it though is that it leaves too many actors in the game: Danny, Aegon/Dorne, Tyrells, and to a lesser degree Vale, the Lannisters and Jon/Wildlings. While on the show they were only Danny, Jon and Lannisters before the endgame.

 

[2cents]

we know the northerners like Manderly are actively plotting against the Boltons.

Really interesting to see how this will play out, Theon's chapters in DwD are so intriguing, I've gone back and read them a few times now to try and get to grips with all the underlying tensions and plots at Winterfell.

Also, the other wildcard we haven't mentioned here is Stoneheart, she surely has a big role to play in ultimately helping Jon take the north.

 

[2cents]

Yeah, apparently D&D disliked the actor, and as consequence, totally misunderstood Stannis' character. I also believed that he is going to defeat Boltons, though no idea what would happen with him after it. The problem with it though is that it leaves too many actors in the game: Danny, Aegon/Dorne, Tyrells, and to a lesser degree Vale, the Lannisters and Jon/Wildlings. While on the show they were only Danny, Jon and Lannisters before the endgame.

Once Stannis burns Shireen (which he will IMO), that's the beginning of the end for him.

 

[Revan]

Once Stannis burns Shireen (which he will IMO), that's the beginning of the end for him.

Sure, but he is still going to lose against someone. Maybe against Jaime who is on Riverrun? Or against Vale, who'll try to liberate the North for Sansa?

It is really such a complicated situation in the books, which is likely the reason why GRRM cannot finish it. How to solve all those things?

 

[RobinLFC]

Sure, but he is still going to lose against someone. Maybe against Jaime who is on Riverrun? Or against Vale, who'll try to liberate the North for Sansa?

It is really such a complicated situation in the books, which is likely the reason why GRRM cannot finish it. How to solve all those things?

Easy enough to solve it, a completely different matter to solve it in a believable manner that will appease the (book) fans

 

[harshad]

There is an excellent essay dissecting how Stannis would win against the Freys. Let me see if I can find it.

 

[Minimalist]

Can't say I'm all that bothered about the books anymore and how it compares to the show.

Went back and finally finished off ADwD a couple weeks back (just for completion, not pleasure) and I really don't see the books finishing well (if ever). He became a really average writer in those last two books and desperately needs an editor to call him out when writing the rest (which I don't think he'll allow).

 

[Revan]

There is an excellent essay dissecting how Stannis would win against the Freys. Let me see if I can find it.

Totally forgot about them. It won't happen in the books, but Arya going genocidal on them was fantastic to see.

 

[harshad]

https://cantuse.wordpress.com/2014/08/28/the-night-lamp-revisited-the-wrath-of-the-old-and-the-new/

 

[Cheesy]

Really interesting to see how this will play out, Theon's chapters in DwD are so intriguing, I've gone back and read them a few times now to try and get to grips with all the underlying tensions and plots at Winterfell.

Also, the other wildcard we haven't mentioned here is Stoneheart, she surely has a big role to play in ultimately helping Jon take the north.

The battle itself will probably be a mess - I'm not sure Stannis himself has any idea Manderly is basically working for him alongside Davos, for example, and so there could be some miscommunications if Stannis does manage to take Winterfell at all. The Boltons are fecked other way, but might be able to take down a fair few people with them. Karstarks and Umbers seem to be divided. Greatjon is still a key player in the books and could factor if he gets released from captivity.

Not sure about Stoneheart - find it hard to see how her influence will go beyond the Jaime/Brienne situation, cause I can't see Jaime dying in TWOW...but at the same time I don't think she'll accept anything other than his death provided they come face-to-face.

 

[InfiniteBoredom]

While his character is kind of the same (a confused young boy, who started from relatively a low position and who tries to do what is right), they made him in the show much more heroic than he is on the books.

Disagree with his interpretation. Show Jon shows virtually no character development throughout, while in ADwD we saw him getting to grips with the harsh reality of being a leader of men, the conflict between adult responsibilities and his youthful impulses while dealing with his guilt for Ygritte’s death. The boy who left Winterfell in contrast to the Lord Commander who swapped the babes to preserve Mance’s child from the fire are 2 different people.

They made him a more conventional good guy in the show, but in doing that sacrifice most of the nuances of his character. Going to Hardhome, smashing headlong into Winterfell, going alone to Dragonstone. Heroic, but irresponsible and stupid.

 

[Revan]

Marathon finished. The penultimate episode might have the worst writing in history, it is Sharknado level of idiocy. No idea how anyone who had a part on it thought that was a good idea.

Otherwise, the season had great moments and poor writing.

 

[padr81]

Once Stannis burns Shireen (which he will IMO), that's the beginning of the end for him.

I believe it will be Mel and Selyse who will burn Shireen, angering an unknowing Stannis. I think Stannis will struggle after beating the Boltons when winter hits the north and they'll do it wrongly believing Stannis is still AA. At least I hope thats how it goes down. I really think Stannis will exit the story thinking Mel is full of shit, even though she's not, she's just really bad at her job..

 

[2cents]

Not sure about Stoneheart - find it hard to see how her influence will go beyond the Jaime/Brienne situation, cause I can't see Jaime dying in TWOW...but at the same time I don't think she'll accept anything other than his death provided they come face-to-face.

In the Grand Northern Conspiracy essays it's speculated that she's attempting to fulfill Robb's final decree to have Jon legitimized as his successor. Makes a pretty convincing case that she's heavily involved in the plot against the Freys and Boltons.

 

[2cents]

I believe it will be Mel and Selyse who will burn Shireen, angering an unknowing Stannis. I think Stannis will struggle after beating the Boltons when winter hits the north and they'll do it wrongly believing Stannis is still AA. At least I hope thats how it goes down. I really think Stannis will exit the story thinking Mel is full of shit, even though she's not, she's just really bad at her job..

I really don't know what to make of Melisandre, what her role is or her powers are. Hopefully we get a deeper insight into her thinking, and maybe even something from Asshai, a place I really want to know more about.

 

[Andersons Dietician]

I was under the impression that the story the tv show is now presenting is following a guideline from GRRM. Obviously differences but they are aware of GRRM’s end game and are adapting to make it work within the tv series.

 

[Revan]

I was under the impression that the story the tv show is now presenting is following a guideline from GRRM. Obviously differences but they are aware of GRRM’s end game and are adapting to make it work within the tv series.

Probably loosely, but not sure how much. I mean the fact that they totally removed Aegon and Arianne (and then killed Doran) is a very significant change, which to a large degree will change the end game. You can't just remove the second/third biggest fraction (after Daenerys and possibly Tyrells) and to get the same ending. What might be though, is that Daenerys-Aegon conflict would take place instead of Daenerys-Cersei conflict. Or that Aegon will replace Jon on Daeenrys-Jon affair, but then no idea where does that leaves Jon?

Also, the Whitewalkers origin has to be different on the books, I believe, though the final ending (them losing, maybe Bran being their leader) might be the same. More detailed endings will be more different than the ending of Full Metal Alchemist compared to Brotherhood.

 

[Revan]

I really don't know what to make of Melisandre, what her role is or her powers are. Hopefully we get a deeper insight into her thinking, and maybe even something from Asshai, a place I really want to know more about.

We won't ever know it, at least not from Martin. Same for that large Empire which resembles China.

 

[devilish]

Marathon finished. The penultimate episode might have the worst writing in history, it is Sharknado level of idiocy. No idea how anyone who had a part on it thought that was a good idea.

Otherwise, the season had great moments and poor writing.

spoiler alert, the butcher's boy dies

 

[robinamicrowave]

Yep. In the show, they made him an Aragorn, while in books, he never went to kill those feckers who killed Mormont, instead of going to Hardhorme to kill WW, send there Allistar Thorne, and the battle of bastards haven't happened yet (it probably won't happen at all, and if it happens, it won't be KotV who would save the day). And then the absurdity of getting a zombie to send to Cersei which has 0 chance of happening in the books.

While his character is kind of the same (a confused young boy, who started from relatively a low position and who tries to do what is right), they made him in the show much more heroic than he is on the books.

I like season 7 more than most but I've tried and tried and I still can't get my head around the "capture a wight" plan.

One of the biggest mistakes the show made was erasing the Horn of Winter from the plot - and I say this as someone who's never read the books. It's *there* when Sam finds the dragonglass at the Fist of the First Men, they literally show it to us, but it's never seen again. If the Night King has the Horn of Winter, the show doesn't need to send Jon and Daenerys north of the Wall to give him a dragon. If Bran breaks the spell on the Wall (which is even mentioned in the season six finale!) when he passes through Castle Black, the Night King can catch the entire continent of Westeros by surprise. He can blow the Horn of Winter, bring the Wall's last defences down, and make his way through that way.

I think stalling on killing Cersei and getting rid of the Horn of Winter probably caused a few knots that the show had to bend over backwards to untangle, which is why Eastwatch and Beyond the Wall stumble.

 

[padr81]

I like season 7 more than most but I've tried and tried and I still can't get my head around the "capture a wight" plan.

One of the biggest mistakes the show made was erasing the Horn of Winter from the plot - and I say this as someone who's never read the books. It's *there* when Sam finds the dragonglass at the Fist of the First Men, they literally show it to us, but it's never seen again. If the Night King has the Horn of Winter, the show doesn't need to send Jon and Daenerys north of the Wall to give him a dragon. If Bran breaks the spell on the Wall (which is even mentioned in the season six finale!) when he passes through Castle Black, the Night King can catch the entire continent of Westeros by surprise. He can blow the Horn of Winter, bring the Wall's last defences down, and make his way through that way.

I think stalling on killing Cersei and getting rid of the Horn of Winter probably caused a few knots that the show had to bend over backwards to untangle, which is why Eastwatch and Beyond the Wall stumble.

I think it was put in simply because D&D thought an Ice Dragon burning down the wall with blue fire would look cool, same reason as the undead polar bear thing.

 

[robinamicrowave]

I think it was put in simply because D&D thought an Ice Dragon burning down the wall with blue fire would look cool, same reason as the undead polar bear thing.

I mean, they were right about the ice dragon bringing the Wall down. It did look cool. Not so much the polar bear scene, which is fine in concept but not directed all that well.

 

[2cents]

@robinamicrowave why haven't you read the books?

 

[robinamicrowave]

@robinamicrowave why haven't you read the books?

Just don't read books full stop. Don't have the time or the patience. I listen to music and podcasts every day, and watch films and TV shows every day as well. If I take in any more content I'll probably drown in it.

 

[2cents]

Just don't read books full stop. Don't have the time or the patience. I listen to music and podcasts every day, and watch films and TV shows every day as well. If I take in any more content I'll probably drown in it.

That's a shame.

 

[robinamicrowave]

That's a shame.

It is a shame. Books are something I've always tried to get into. I read a lot of fiction when I was a kid. But like a lot of people my age, when you're at school and college, being taught the most boring ways possible to understand and interpret books, they don't seem like an attractive option at all when you can lose yourself in an album, a movie, the Internet, or a video game. I've tried reading fiction again but to no avail, I've tried reading books about things I already love and want to know more about, but nothing's really got me to stick with a book.

 

[Moiraine]

Wheel of Time. It is the most sold fantasy saga after LOTR and Harry Potter, and actually a lot of people mention that ASOIAF was helped from its author (Robert Jordan) who praised Game of Thrones. Until the Got started, it was a much popular saga than ASOIAF.

Anyway, Jordan lost its way during the books, and to make things worse, he got cancer. After he died, based on his notes (more than 2000 pages), a young author (Brandon Sanderson) was chosen to finish it, and he wrote 3 large novels to finish the epic 15 book saga.

GRRM has said that he ain't allowing anyone to touch ASOIAF, but then, so said Jordan before.

It may not be the right forum but how many stars would you give Wheel of Time out of 10 ?
And how many to GRRM's ASOIAF...

 

[Revan]

It may not be the right forum but how many stars would you give Wheel of Time out of 10 ?
And how many to GRRM's ASOIAF...

ASOIAF is my favorite fantasy saga and WoT is my second favorite. So...

 

[Member 39557]

A little bit spoilery, so click at your own peril.

https://ew.com/tv/2018/11/01/game-of-thrones-final-season-ew-cover-story/

 

[robinamicrowave]

Now that it's been out for a little while, what do ASOIAF fans make of Fire and Blood?

 

[Kristjan]

Now that it's been out for a little while, what do ASOIAF fans make of Fire and Blood?

Not buying any books by GRRM until Winds of Winter is out.

 

[InfiniteBoredom]

Not buying any books by GRRM until Winds of Winter is out.

You don't have to buy it

 

[padr81]

Not buying any books by GRRM until Winds of Winter is out.

Fixed your post because WoW is never coming.

 

[Revan]

Now that it's been out for a little while, what do ASOIAF fans make of Fire and Blood?

I was pleasantly surprised by it. Liked it much more than I thought I would like. I probably even gave 4/5 stars in Goodreads.

 

[Kristjan]

Fixed your post because WoW is never coming.

I'm still an optimist

 

[robinamicrowave]

As someone who's never read the books and has no intention to do so, I think George will eventually finish The Winds of Winter - around late 2020/early 2021 is my guess - but never A Dream of Spring. From hearing the words of people who love both Game of Thrones and A Song of Ice and Fire, they're frustrated and a little sad that the adaptation wasn't able to continue beyond season 5 and that the transition to original material hasn't always been a comfortable one for them to watch - but despite their feelings about D & D, they find themselves more frustrated with George for expanding in books four and five when he should have made more of an effort to do what the show has done, which is narrow things down and combine various plot strands for effiency's sake.

I haven't read the books so I'm a little biased, and a little ignorant as well, but I'd much rather take the show's version of certain plotlines than the book ones. I'd rather see Sansa go back to Winterfell and be placed in the hands of Ramsay Bolton than be forced to care about Jeyne Pool, who Ramsay thinks is Arya Stark but actually isn't. And I'd rather see Mance Rayder burned alive by Stannis than see the show try to pull off that it's not Mance Rayder but actually Rattleshirt in a magic mask. Conversely, I'm eager to see where George would have taken Arya's Braavos plotline, which was clearly preparing itself to be something much bigger and more complex at the end of season 5 but was ultimately boiled down to Arya vs. the Waif with Jaqen playing referee, and how Daenerys' eventual invasion of Westeros would have played out. I can't help but think she'd have gone to Dorne than Dragonstone.

I think we'll eventually get answers to some of these questions, but not all.

 

[)_(]

GRRM apparently locked himself away in the same cabin he did when he was finishing adwd and a Spanish illustrator dropped a hint about it a while back so I think we'll definitely get twow in 2019/20 but I don't think we'll ever get ados. I'm not even sure if the story can be finished in 2 books looking at how much is still left to tell and how motivated can you really be when the TV show has already spoiled most of the key plotpoints.

The funny thing about f&b is that a lot of people were angry at grrm for publishing this book before twow except for hardcore fans of the Targaryens who think that the main series is going to end in a Targaryen restoration and those are the people that actually ended up being more dissapointed by the book than anything because it's basically about how terrible the Targaryens were as rulers.

@robinamicrowave I can't really see her going to Dorne first tbh. Dragonstone is from where Aegon conquered Westeros and Dany is "Aegon with teats" basically so I'd imagine it would follow a similar pattern as in the show.

I also think there's no way that Stannis will take Winterfell. There is just no narrative satisfaction to a guy who has no ties to the place winning it back. The Starks winning back Winterfell is the culmination of years of pain and suffering finally ending in a victory for House Stark. Anything else would just be poor storytelling imo. There's no emotional satisfaction to Stannis winning back Winterfell. Though, as I said, I have no clue if grrm will ever even get to write it as I don't see how it could happen in twow with Jon stilll being dead, Sansa in the Vale, Rickon on Skagos, Bran and Arya probably won't join up until later like in the show. GRRM said that things would get worse before they get better and I'm not sure if twow would include the "getting better" part. I sure hope it does because I'm ready to see House Stark winning in the books and the idea of the story possibly ending at the darkest point (if Grrm never gets to publish ados which is likely, let's be real) seems a bit depressing. So I definitely hope that, at least for the Starks, twow ends with a win, at least we'll have that even if we never get ados. And who knows, maybe after seeing how it ends in s8 a lot of people won't want ados.

 

[Kasper]

Beside the fact that it's questionable that he'll ever finish Winds of winter, I wonder how he will actually finish the story within the scope of 2 books. The pacing slowed down extremely in 4 and 5 and at the end of the fifth there are more storylines than ever and they're all miles apart.
I don't think he'll ever finish the 7th book, yet even if he does, I'm extremely sceptical if it can be done in a satisfactory manner that doesn't suddenly rush or kill off multiple storylines.