You mean 2012, I'm sure.
Are we taking finishing 2nd for granted?
- Thread starter Sky1981
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Thats it in a nutshell. Finishing second is normally a great achievement as it means you were better than all the other teams apart from the champions. However it also usually means you were in a title race which couldn't be further from the truth and for that reason I don't think its something that can be thrown around as a great achievement in the context of the league last season. Ask yourself would this even be a question had we run City to the wire and missed out by a couple of points? No way it would, we would all be saying it was a great achievement last season but we just came up short.
City success and 19 point gap overshadowed United improvement. Would be nice if United win FA cup last season with 2nd position in league
Finishing 2nd is not good enough for Manchester United. The least we could do is stick to Sir Alex's principles.
This is not Arsenal.
This is not Arsenal.
Think the original premise is wrong.
No one is dismissing 2nd as crap or something. My expectations for where United are, along with the resources they have, is to finish inside the top 3 every season while at least challenging for the title.
If we could get the latter, that would help.
Spurs, Liverpool and Arsenal should not finishing above us. They might well do but I count that as poor from United (something has went wrong).
No one is dismissing 2nd as crap or something. My expectations for where United are, along with the resources they have, is to finish inside the top 3 every season while at least challenging for the title.
If we could get the latter, that would help.
Spurs, Liverpool and Arsenal should not finishing above us. They might well do but I count that as poor from United (something has went wrong).
Several here last season were predicting us to fall out of second spot sooner or later, and some even was predicting us to drop out of top 4 completely in Dec. After the draw vs Southampton in Dec and us dropping to 3rd loads jumped to tell us they were right about us being shite and it was predictable we would never stay second and it's going down hell from now on. Funny that after all that second isn't good enough.
Second isn't good enough in general but in terms of United post SAF that was a massive improvement and good step up being the first time we finished in top 3 in the past 5 years. Jumping from finishing 5th and 6th to 2nd was an improvement no matter what. People seem to have forgotten when we were discussing the possibility of us finishing 4th or 5th under LVG or Moyes if they're claiming second spot wasn't good last season.
We'll have a bigger fight on our hand to finish in top 3 this season though thanks to our unexpected poor start, we'll be forced to go on a run now to make for the points we lost.
Second isn't good enough in general but in terms of United post SAF that was a massive improvement and good step up being the first time we finished in top 3 in the past 5 years. Jumping from finishing 5th and 6th to 2nd was an improvement no matter what. People seem to have forgotten when we were discussing the possibility of us finishing 4th or 5th under LVG or Moyes if they're claiming second spot wasn't good last season.
We'll have a bigger fight on our hand to finish in top 3 this season though thanks to our unexpected poor start, we'll be forced to go on a run now to make for the points we lost.
We were the best of the rest in terms of points achieved.
However, our football was dreadful, Liverpool had an eye on the Champion's League and the gap between first and second should not be ignored.
We really stumbled through the second half of the season, one in which Chelsea and Arsenal were both in crisis.
However, our football was dreadful, Liverpool had an eye on the Champion's League and the gap between first and second should not be ignored.
We really stumbled through the second half of the season, one in which Chelsea and Arsenal were both in crisis.
I was happy with second last year, that wasn't the problem for me. (Although I think without the CL run, Liverpool could and probably would have been above us)
It's the manner in which we did it. The way we played, was unable to break down smaller teams last year was a massive downfall for us, and being a bit more adventurous in them matches could have got us quite a few more points.
I don't mind being 'boring' or so against the bigger sides if it gets us the points it did last year. That to me isn't overly an issue, although I'd much rather go out attacking and win obviously, but points against them sides should be won no matter the style of play.
Behind the scenes things just seem toxic, whether it's Mourinho Vs Ed. Mourinho Vs Pogba. Mourinho Vs Martial etc.
It may all just be press talk, but you can actually see it, hear it, there are problems.
Back on the pitch, if we can play like we did against Burnley, look positive and turn more of them chances into goals, I'd happily get behind Mourinho, but he needs to stick with it.
It's the manner in which we did it. The way we played, was unable to break down smaller teams last year was a massive downfall for us, and being a bit more adventurous in them matches could have got us quite a few more points.
I don't mind being 'boring' or so against the bigger sides if it gets us the points it did last year. That to me isn't overly an issue, although I'd much rather go out attacking and win obviously, but points against them sides should be won no matter the style of play.
Behind the scenes things just seem toxic, whether it's Mourinho Vs Ed. Mourinho Vs Pogba. Mourinho Vs Martial etc.
It may all just be press talk, but you can actually see it, hear it, there are problems.
Back on the pitch, if we can play like we did against Burnley, look positive and turn more of them chances into goals, I'd happily get behind Mourinho, but he needs to stick with it.
FA Cup win and finishing second behind an unbelievable City team would have been a pretty good season. Just finishing second is good but no silverware, the Sevilla loss and the awful form after beating City put a downer on it all.
Enough of the "2nd was a great achievement" and the other claim that usually follows, "Mourinho shouldn't be criticised, he got 2nd".
This is Man Utd. The most valuable club in the world. We should be in the title race almost every year. We weren't. If the bottom 14 are so crap that City can run up 100 points, then Utd should be within at least 10 points of doing the same.
This is Man Utd. The most valuable club in the world. We should be in the title race almost every year. We weren't. If the bottom 14 are so crap that City can run up 100 points, then Utd should be within at least 10 points of doing the same.
We took our eye off the league as soon as liverpool did
We are not finishing 2nd.
We will finish 1st. Quote me on it, laugh at me if it doesn’t happen.
I think we’ve reached a turning point.
I’d rather be positive until proven wrong. There’s far too much negativity around here.
I think we’ve reached a turning point.
I’d rather be positive until proven wrong. There’s far too much negativity around here.
2nd was never a failure. The fact that we finished 2nd more due to extraneous factors (Chelsea and Arsenal imploding, Liverpool focusing on CL) as opposed to being the actual 2nd best team in the league is what rankles. If we had finished 2nd playing in a cohesive style, it would have been seen as progress.
Our 2nd place was no different to Arsenal finishing 2nd in Leicester's title winning season.
We aren't the 2nd best team in the league and that's mainly due to the manager not being able to get the best out of the attack.
Our 2nd place was no different to Arsenal finishing 2nd in Leicester's title winning season.
We aren't the 2nd best team in the league and that's mainly due to the manager not being able to get the best out of the attack.
You talked about the second group enjoying the journey (presumably they still try to predict to where?) and you yourself talk about how a good style precedes the creation of a sustainably top tier team. Maybe I misunderstood but that seems pretty visionary vs the apparent here and now contentment of the other group, so I was saying the lines are more blurred.
Regardless. We are 2nd last season.
Obviously I'm talking about last season since this season is only 3 games away
We didnt?
Obviously I'm talking about last season since this season is only 3 games away
This is bullshit.
A customer simply moves to what they feel is a better product. There is nothing wrong with fans wanting to be entertained with how their team plays or unhappy with how their team approaches games. Especially if they feel they have the resources to do so. It's the same with almost every big club.
I said consistent not good style, I said mastering an approach is key in being a consistent top tier team. As for the journey unless I missed something we all know where we want the team to be which is the top, there is no prediction to make it's an objective.
The clubs goal should be to win the league every year, yes. However the point is that it's not always possible if there is a gap in quality between the winner and United.
Last year there were 2-3 clubs with better squads and we managed to finish above all but 1. The manager, players and coaching staff deserve credit for that, but we should have taken more steps to improve the squad to win the league this year.
Not going to believe me but, I don't care for the final standings, of course, we will always want the League as we are Manchester United, but in the end is most important the devotion for the club. When I can see it I'm happy no matter if we lose or win.
I think I'll add to @JPRouve point and that some see league position as the be all and end all when it comes to assessing progress. Some fans think it's slightly more than that.
What do you define as the other lot?
Not convinced there is any ‘tension which has gone public’ between Jose and Ed, just the useless hacks insisting there is, again, because we didn’t sign Alderwiereld. Our most expensive player isn’t angling for a move away from what I can see. Clubs are likely naturally interested in him, and we heard a load of stories about a bid being made, but even on Raoila’s part - he hasn’t come out and said anything near what Martial’s agent is said to have said. There is no reason we should now expect Pogba to not play well this season, which is ultimately all that matters as far as we are concerned this year.
The Martial situation appears as you say it is. That said, I’m not sure the manager doesn’t want him anyway, the first noises came from the player’s side. Even if it were as it seems, so what? They are professionals, they will sort it out, it’s no reason for the club to have a poor season or anything. Imagine City saying due to Sterling having not yet signed a new deal, or Sane issues, they are expected to not achieve this season? This is football today, the clubs will get on with it. Hazard said some outlandish things from a Chelsea perspective this summer, uetnis getting on with his job, and they will probably win the league knowing them tbh.
No point celebrating second if the next season you finish outside the top 4 (not saying that United will - but just generally speaking - see Arsenal finishing second during Leicester's title winning season.. despite finishing ahead of Spurs, it was clear to see one side overachieved and was very fortunate and the other one bottled it but had the healthier long term picture). If United finish third, after 2nd last year - clear sign of progress from the days of Moyes/LVG but then again I doubt most sane people would have disagreed that the squad and first team looks better than it did under those two.
2nd doesn't seem to be good enough for this club. Finishing in top 4 this season will take a big effort.
No Champions League Spot = New Manager..???
No Champions League Spot = New Manager..???
You dont believe that Woodward delivered that narrative to the press the day after deadline day justifying why we didnt sign a CB and excusing himself? Clearly there was a disagreement between the CEO and Manager. However most important thing is we move forwards as a club and deliver a better standard of football.
It is a tough league. We won a lot of games. José had us come second despite our team not being able to consistently play entertaining or even good football. While that isn't optimal, it certainly is a positive and it does say something about us having a winning mentality which can help take us there. Liverpool and Spurs had a good few games last season they was dominating heavily, while we didn't after a good start. But even though they got praise because they sometimes looked unbeatable, they definitely wasn't as they actually lost more games than us.
Winning games is whats important but the moaners will moan even if we win and play beautiful football, there will be new excuses then for why its still not enough.
Is 2. place good enough? No, but it almost is. 'Almost' in a league with great competition usually brings about a lot of optimism, i guess thats not allowed when discussing Man Utd anymore.
Winning games is whats important but the moaners will moan even if we win and play beautiful football, there will be new excuses then for why its still not enough.
Is 2. place good enough? No, but it almost is. 'Almost' in a league with great competition usually brings about a lot of optimism, i guess thats not allowed when discussing Man Utd anymore.
But what breeds confidence and buy-in from the players into a system? And could we achieve these results fast enough given the defensive base we're working off?
As Jamie Carragher was saying about Arsenal, it's better for a manager to adapt to the players he has and progress the style in correlation to improving the personnel also. For instance if Mourinho has poor defenders then he needs to protect them in his system or be picked apart (and he always will as it's in his "build from the back" mantra). But then if we look at Chelsea v2 and Real Madrid we all know Jose is capable of putting out teams that play scintillating attacking football if he's so inclined (admittedly it's not his first inclination), and we know Jose is desperate to succeed long-term at Manchester United - in the make up of his lust he'll be well aware part of the obligation is attacking football - so it's perfectly possible for someone to foresee an upturn in style with his and the team's confidence - it's a personnel and performance based trajectory.
Having Jose and after winning the Europa league, minimum expectation from Jose and the team was top 3 in the last season. It is a good achievement, but not really way above expectations.
Mounting a title challenge this season would have been the natural progression, but our underwhelming transfer window and our overall team imperfections, shows it will be an unlikely expectation. How much of it is on Jose or Woodward or anyone else depends on which side of the argument you stand. I don't want to get into it.
Mounting a title challenge this season would have been the natural progression, but our underwhelming transfer window and our overall team imperfections, shows it will be an unlikely expectation. How much of it is on Jose or Woodward or anyone else depends on which side of the argument you stand. I don't want to get into it.
The last few years saw Tottenham, Arsenal, City under Pellegeini and liverpool under Rodgers finish 2nd. It means nothing.
In fact their finishes after finishing 2nd go:
In fact their finishes after finishing 2nd go:
- Tottenham 3rd last season
- Arsenal 5th in 16/17
- City 4th on GD with United under LvG in 15/16
- Liverpool 6th
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I'd be over the moon with 2nd this season. So long as City and especially Liverpool aren't 1st.
Top 4 would be a good season for me (that and some good football to enjoy). I'm not asking for much I think 
I have accepted that I've had my fill of trophies for a lifetime under SAF.
I have accepted that I've had my fill of trophies for a lifetime under SAF.Missing out on the CL twice felt horrible, so fairly happy with 2nd despite being nowhere near City. Was absolutely gutted we couldn't win the FA Cup though, we've won far too few of them in recent times (just 1 in the last 14 years)..
Seriously, you keep posting things that have nothing to do with my posts. Why?
It's simple really. Jose has improved (significantly) our results but our play style is still the same tumescent shite.
I do think people underestimate however the status of the league currently. It's a bit of a lottery this season (and the last few) on where the Top 6 clubs will finish, I only have City down as an automatic Top 4 team this year.
I do think people underestimate however the status of the league currently. It's a bit of a lottery this season (and the last few) on where the Top 6 clubs will finish, I only have City down as an automatic Top 4 team this year.
That's not the point. The point is that Manchester United is a winning machine, or at least, was, under Sir Alex, and finishing second was always seen as a failure. Not saying it's the worst thing that could happen but we definitely can't be content/ satisfied.
Because I'm someone who is enjoying the journey because of the end results that will lead to an upturn in style.
Like I said maybe I misunderstood but if I didn't the groupings you made in your original post don't work for me at all.
I’m not disputing that there was a disagreement between manager and CEO. I had one with my manager this morning. My point is, this stuff happens in football and every other workplace, and I doubt there is tension between the Ed and Jose. The press are determined to turn everything here into an episode of Hollyoaks is the only difference between us and the lack of ‘tension’ at Chelsea between Hazard and the club after he said he fancies a change.
Again, I said emphasis not enjoyment. I'm talking about the evaluation of our performances. You keep changing terms which obviously will make things have a different meaning, you are not misunderstanding but making up things. The OP asked whether some people took finishing 2nd for granted and I simply said that some people put a bigger emphasis on the level of our performances during the season than the final ranking, from that people can discuss about whether the evaluation of the performances is accurate or not but the first step is to understand that people aren't evaluating things with the same weight.
Yeah, all of those teams failed to consolidate their squads properly following their 2nd place finishes and some just weren't that good to begin with. I think both of those things are true of us.
We might have finished 2nd but we didn't play like the 2nd best team in the league for a large portion of the season.