No thats not what the plan is.
The Road Trip Draft QF - Enigma vs Pat/Skizzo
- Thread starter Edgar Allan Pillow
- Start date
Again, why are we hell bent on making it to be just Ferrara to deal with Muller? And Moore to be some scrub.
As for no resistance to Beckenbauer, thats why we have an extra/3rd CM in Breitner who will track Beckenbauer whenever he marches forward. We aren't just going to let Beckenbauer chill and let him do whatever the feck he wants. Having that 3rd CM comes to play here. And if Beckenbauer does marches forward, it provides us with an opportunity to win the ball back quickly and exploit them on counters as well.
Also here's the thing, the biggest mismatch isn't Muller vs Ferrara/Moore. Its Messi vs Carlos. Carlos will be eviscerated and torn to shreds here by Messi. He doesn't have the positional discipline or the defensive nous to deal with Messi here. There will be plenty of instances where Beckenbauer marches forward and we end up winning back the possession and completely rip Skizzo's & Pat's team on the break because with Beckenbauer pushing forward, it creates space at the back to be exploited and with Carlos out of position, because he will be you have Ronaldinho and Messi in plenty of one-on-one situations which lets be honest no defender can deal with singlehandedly.
Those were your words.
Where’s the extra CM when you had Breitner back helping on Laudrup earlier?
Ahh of course, the old “we let your players push up and hit them on the counter” as if Beckenbauer is (to use your phrase) some scrub. He made a career out of knowing when to overload, hold, or let others push on.
Next you’ll be saying things like you’ll be tearing people to shreds and eviscerating people or some other hyperbolic nonsense.
Oh there it is
I think we’ll win this game because Muller will transcend the game entirely and reach some kind of goal scoring nirvana.
Beckenbauer will own the midfield areas and totally dominate any that come his way like a gladiator along men.
Jinky will pwn some noobs.
Etc.
So your gameplan is to stop us by controlling the midfield, but as has been mentioned by a few people already, we have the better midfield. And that’s before counting Beckenbauer adding to the advantage.
Heading to bed and working later, so I’ll check in when/if I can.
I look forward to reading about what Patrick “some kind of Death Star” Vieira will do to win the game later though
Jinky, jinky, will tear you apart again...♪ ♫
If you have Beckenbauer constantly helping your midfield that would leave pretty much Fontaine one on one with Desailly or Messi with a lot of space between the lines. Beckenbauer can't be at two places at the same time, although that's often represented in drafts having one of the greats in multiple roles.So your gameplan is to stop us by controlling the midfield, but as has been mentioned by a few people already, we have the better midfield. And that’s before counting Beckenbauer adding to the advantage.
Heading to bed and working later, so I’ll check in when/if I can.
I look forward to reading about what Patrick “some kind of Death Star” Vieira will do to win the game later though
We have more work rate in there and Vieira, Redondo and Breitner would have numerical advantage considering your more like 4-2-3-1 in terms of personnel rather than 4-3-3. Laudrup was never the type that would work his socks off.
If you intend to have Beckenbauer most of the time in midfield then that leaves a lot of space at the back for our front three and would decide the game in our favor.
If Beckenbauer joins the midfield he will leave huge gap behind. I like our chances - Ronaldinho/Messi/Fontaine against a gung ho defender in Carlos, Desailly in his older days (not the peak DM one) and Andrade on the RB. IMO the latter is much more of a mismatch compared to the bloodbath in midfield - Beckenbauer/Neeskens/Tito vs Vieira/Redondo/Breitner.
A reminder that we field not one but two of the most successful proven partnerships around.
Penarol's midfield kingpin Tito Goncalves and jet-heeled winger Joya won the following together:
6 Uruguayan league championships
2 Copa Libertadores, and two times beaten finalists
2 Intercontinental Cups (against Real Madrid and Eusebio's Benfica)
Beckenbauer and Muller:
4 Bundesligas
4 German Cups
3 European Cups
1 ECWC
and a Euro Championshp and World Cup double whammy at international level.
Penarol's midfield kingpin Tito Goncalves and jet-heeled winger Joya won the following together:
6 Uruguayan league championships
2 Copa Libertadores, and two times beaten finalists
2 Intercontinental Cups (against Real Madrid and Eusebio's Benfica)
Beckenbauer and Muller:
4 Bundesligas
4 German Cups
3 European Cups
1 ECWC
and a Euro Championshp and World Cup double whammy at international level.
Come on mate.. Pummeled?
They faced each other 3 times:
14 Jun 1970 Germany v England L 3-2 FIFA World Cup
29 Apr 1972 England v West Germany L 1-3 UEFA European Championship
13 May 1972 West Germany v England D 0-0 UEFA European Championship
in the first game Germany needed ET to get through after losing the game 0-2 at HT.
In the second it was tied at 1-1 till the 84th minute when Netzer scored a penalty and Muller then scored the third.
In the third one Muller failed to score.
Norman Hunter
Bobby Moore
Emlyn Hughes
Paul Madeley
-------------
Terry Cooper
Brian Labone
Bobby Moore
Keith Newton
^^ those were the defences on show for England.
Here Moore has Ferrara, CAT and Facchetti next to him. The gulf in quality is huge between his partners.
@Enigma_87 The "pummeled" sounds a bit harsh, but it was not solely meant on Muller vs Moore, but also what Beckenbauer did to England. I remember him rising to the occasion big time in 1970, overcoming his nemesis Charlton (who was 32 already tbf) and turning the match around. He was amazing everywhere during the comeback, dominating the midfield and producing the magic up front at the same time.
Rivaldo has a great cross in him and would have given a sheen to that attack. At least to people like me who have hardly watched anything of Juan Joya. Oh and Carlos, just adds all the more sense.
That would probably be my only complain against the Beckenbauer side. The front 3 don't make me jump out of my seat in an all time context (Muller aside of course). And this is from a Johnstone fan.
On the Messi side, I agree that Ferrara is not a great choice at this point. Calling him top 20 of all time is just hilarious. But the rest of the team looks class when you look at it as an attack, midfield and defense.
I am not sure how Messi would perform in a direct team with Vieira and Brietner though. It looks more near his Argentina setups. Having a great passing midfield maestro who could control the game is usually a must with Messi sides IMO.
Not sure which way I tilt for now.
That would probably be my only complain against the Beckenbauer side. The front 3 don't make me jump out of my seat in an all time context (Muller aside of course). And this is from a Johnstone fan.
On the Messi side, I agree that Ferrara is not a great choice at this point. Calling him top 20 of all time is just hilarious. But the rest of the team looks class when you look at it as an attack, midfield and defense.
I am not sure how Messi would perform in a direct team with Vieira and Brietner though. It looks more near his Argentina setups. Having a great passing midfield maestro who could control the game is usually a must with Messi sides IMO.
Not sure which way I tilt for now.
England dominated that game until that goal from Beckenbauer mate. Then everything turned around. However here he's up against all time greats in Vieira, Breitner and Redondo. I can pretty much say the same about Redondo who dominated United midfield at their height of their powers.
That England side was also on the wane in 1970 and early 1970's. Their international feats in the 70's also goes to show that without Charlton and Moore they lacked the leaders and really didn't have that great of a squad.
Beckenbauer is vital for Skizzo/Pat, but you have to take into account the opposition and that all of Breitner, Redondo and Vieira will put a shift in, whilst Beckenbauer has to be both in the heart of the defence and helping the midfield. With the lack of designated #10 in our team we will have the numbers and bodies in midfield to suffocate Beckenbauer and Laudrup's effect on the game.
I know that you said that you didn't rate Vieira that high, but he was one of the best B2B midfielders in the last 2-3 decades. Won it all with France, instrumental in their WC finals run in 06. Captain of Arsenal's invincible. He won't shy from the challenge here.
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We have that in Redondo mate. Breitner also suits Messi to a tee, whilst of course all of our supporting cast around Messi are great on the ball, even our CB's. Messi excelled in different Barca setups without the tiki taka and really didn't take any toll to his game.
Also this set up and the 4-3-3 we're offering suits him in a much greater extend than the various Argentina set ups which didn't really make the best out of it.
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@Enigma_87 Yeah you made my point for me in that I have said in your last game that Vieira is not that great. He is certainly a tier or two below the other midfielders on the pitch like Neeskens, Laudrup, Redondo etc. Maybe others rate him more highly, but there are like a dozen midfielders from the last 20-30 years alone who I think are better, let alone all time.
Yeah I can understand that mate, we obviously rate different players differently
My point is Skizzo/Pat set up is more 4-2-3-1 in terms of personnel. Laudrup won't add as much as either of our midfield trio to the midfield battle. Laudrup's peak is either as a classic #10, false 9 or a wide playmaker. Not someone who would win you the game by working his socks off.
When we consider that our midfield has advantage in terms of controlling the game. The only way Skizzo/Pat would balance it out is by adding Kaiser there. And yet that would open quite a few gaps in defence so you can't really expect them not to get punished considering the caliber of attackers Skizzo/Pat defense is facing.
Beckenbauer will definitely be more needed here in defence and his impact on the midfield will be limited.
They have that in Redondo which is exactly the player Messi never had during his time for Argentina forcing him to drop deep, being at the same time the one who has to dictate the game and also on the end of finishing moves. I mean he had Mascherano and Biglia? (I think in the final) in 2014. Mascherano and Maxi Rodriguez in 2010. That is miles far away from this set-up.
Just addressing that point, still pretty much undecided.
C'mon that's severely underrating vieira.
I don't want to overtake this thread and make it about my personal midfield rankings, but here are just some midfielders who I think are better than Vieira, from the last 20-30 years:
Keane
Redondo
Scholes
Pirlo
Xavi
Iniesta
Busquets
Schweinsteiger
Kroos
Modric
Davids
Of course you can always argue about your personal preference against one player or the other, but I don't think it was an outlandish comment to suggest that he is not at the top end of midfield rankings during the last 30 years, let alone All-Time.
Both teams just saying a big feck off to that rule about only one manager being allowed to post and the other restricted to 3 posts
I would put him around the same level as kroos/busquets which is the top end for the last thirty years imo.
They both agreed to disregard it.
The thing is, you can't really compare Xavi to a Vieira or Busquets/Scholes to Vieira. All bring different qualities to the table and you can easily put Zidane, Figo etc in that bracket if you are also including Iniesta, which doesn't really show the quality Vieira brings and the players we can compare him to.
From the list you have posted above only Keane, Schweinsteiger and Davids are box to box, which goes to show that he is in fact one of the best box to box players in the last 20-30 years.
There was a thread on your all time B2B midfielders and many people were calling Vieira one of those. Personally having watched him he's to me a certain top 5 in the last 20-30 years in that respective position due to his body of work for Arsenal and France.
For example I rate Keane as the better one (although to me they are in the same tier), but in this set up Vieira is much more at home compared to Roy. At the end we need someone like Vieira and Breitner alongside Redondo to cover the ground, participate in both phases and don't stand of the way of our attacking trio, but rather facilitate them - there aren't many better than Vieira in that respect IMO.
Patrick Vieira was one of the very very few midfielders who went toe to toe with Roy Keane. So, I am surprised at him not being rated, especially on here because he had so many great performances against Manchester United. Also, he is one of the very few players who thrived not only at club level but also at International level. Along with the defensive stability and physicality, he provides his driving runs from midfield and a fair share of goals as well.
One of his finest performances in midfield came vs United, and the midfield trio of Keane, Scholes & Veron.
Here is his spectacular midfield display in Euros 2000. Got overshadowed by Zidane's genius but he was absolutely vital to their domination. Winning back the possession, initiating the attack, linking up with the attackers and sometimes providing that final ball. Patrick Vieira at his peak was a complete midfield dynamo who contributed to the team in a variety of ways.
One of his finest performances in midfield came vs United, and the midfield trio of Keane, Scholes & Veron.
Here is his spectacular midfield display in Euros 2000. Got overshadowed by Zidane's genius but he was absolutely vital to their domination. Winning back the possession, initiating the attack, linking up with the attackers and sometimes providing that final ball. Patrick Vieira at his peak was a complete midfield dynamo who contributed to the team in a variety of ways.
You expect the deepest midfielder to control the game and be the passing maestro to bring the best out of Messi? And that is against a midfield that boasts of Laudrup and Neeskens on the creative front?
For me, it has to be one of the other two advanced midfielders and not Redondo who needs to play that role.
Went with Pat/Skizzo as I feel the midfield is perfect bland of covering, running and playmaking with Keiser behind orchestrating.
Muller reaching goal-scoring nirvana doesn't help either.
On a serious note, very close.
Muller reaching goal-scoring nirvana doesn't help either.
On a serious note, very close.
Redondo did that at his peak mate. He pretty much controlled the game from the exact same position.
Beckenbauer actively participating in the midfield battle leaves many gaps behind tho. Having an uber attacking full back on Messi’s side doesn’t help either.
No one is disputing his effect on midfield but seriously a midfield of Vieira, Breitner and Redondo is getting overlooked here IMO.
You can't logically compare Vieira to the bold names because those are different types of players. For instance I'd never have Iniesta over Vieira in a 442 because they wouldn't be a good fit. I wouldn't have Vieira over him in a 433 though so it balances out.
Pirlo for extreme example would be an awful choice to sub in for Vieira here as his style would be all wrong. It would instantly ruin the entire balance of the tactic. Personally I rate Vieira well above Busquets and Kroos and I know this is a United forum so I'm a minority here but I don't rate Keane above Vieira either.
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Blasphemy!
Jokes aside, i would put of them in the same tier but will always choose Keane over Viera (United bias aside) because of his leadership and ability to increase the ability of others around him.
Yep.
Keane and Vieira are on the same tier imo. Who you choose depends on your choice entirely.
In terms of ability, Vieira had more in locker but Keane had that intangibility.
Keane and Vieira are on the same tier imo. Who you choose depends on your choice entirely.
In terms of ability, Vieira had more in locker but Keane had that intangibility.
Beckenbauer is positioned in the centre of defence as that's his default position when we don't have possession. That in no way stops him from impacting the midfield as soon as we regain possession. He was the best ever at doing precisely that, and he'll have minimal resistance initially from Fontaine and Ronaldinho. You've got an excellent trio of midfielders but they're going to have an almighty challenge minding both Neeskens and Beckenbauer when our transitions are in full flow, particularly given the danger posted by the rest of our attack.Yeah I can understand that mate, we obviously rate different players differently
My point is Skizzo/Pat set up is more 4-2-3-1 in terms of personnel. Laudrup won't add as much as either of our midfield trio to the midfield battle. Laudrup's peak is either as a classic #10, false 9 or a wide playmaker. Not someone who would win you the game by working his socks off.
When we consider that our midfield has advantage in terms of controlling the game. The only way Skizzo/Pat would balance it out is by adding Kaiser there. And yet that would open quite a few gaps in defence so you can't really expect them not to get punished considering the caliber of attackers Skizzo/Pat defense is facing.
Beckenbauer will definitely be more needed here in defence and his impact on the midfield will be limited.
Out of possession, Laudrup isn't a great ball winner by any means but he can be relied upon for the limited defensive brief of pressing and closing down passing lanes on your deepest midfielder. That's more than adequate given that he's buttressed by a superb specialist holding midfielder in Goncalves and the most dynamic box to box presence on the pitch in Neeskens.
I think Facchetti and Carlos Alberto will be key to this. Them getting forward and supporting Messi and Ronaldinho is a scary prospect for any defense IMO. Carlos is a great player, but defensively he's facing a massive challenge here.
Laudrup makes the team tick. Between him and Neeskens, I believe Pat has edge in midfield. Messi will have advantage against Carlos, but Carlos attack will even the output.
Yeah that's fair. I think that a Vieira/Keane is perfect for that role in their tactic whereas if they had a Pirlo or Iniesta I think that midfield would get dominated by Pat/Skizzo's. They need someone like Vieira to combo with Breitner and Redondo to tilt the advantage imo.
I'd planned on addressing this topic earlier but alas it's been a casualty of Skizzo and I getting battered in the post count stakes as neither of us could get online much.
It's always an issue when you're facing Facchetti that your winger is liable to be seen as neutralised while Giacinto gallops up the wing at will when they're on the attack. I don't doubt that he was a fantastic defender, and I don't doubt that he was a brilliant attacker too, but I do question whether he fulfilled both roles against quality opposition as often as supposed.
He stuck to his thankless defensive task doggedly vs Jairzinho in the WC 70 final but barely got forward. Against Johnstone's Celtic in the 1967 European Cup Final he man-marked Lennox while Burgnich picked up Johnstone. They did a good job defensively of mostly containing the wingers, at the cost of their attacking contribution and also allowing Celtic to pulverise them through the overlapping Gemmill and through the centre of the pitch. Alfredo Di Stefano touched on this too, outlining a disagreement he had with Munoz about tactics for a match vs Facchetti's Inter. From Sid Lowe's book 'Fear and Loathing in La Liga'
I'm more than happy to be corrected if anyone has compelling evidence to the contrary as he was obviously a truly brilliant player, but I'm not sure at all that he's likely to both contain Jinky and make a difference in the final third.
Roberto Carlos, on the other hand, is never going to be perceived as watertight defensively in an all-time draft, but we know he'll be a menace in our attacking phase.
On your right side you have Andrade tho, so Facchetti has to only worry about Johnstone. In that WC 70 final Facchetti was up against not only Jairzinho, but also Carlos Alberto and against one of the most dominant Brazil sides ever, something quite different to the proposition here.
From what I've seen of Joya he was always the traditional winger at the time - mostly focused on attack, hence he won't put a shift in and help Roberto Carlos who will end up being isolated at the back,and considering his mostly attacking nature is a viable goal route for us, especially since he won't be facing only Messi (if you can say only) but also one of the greatest RB's in Carlos Alberto.
Facchetti here will no doubt have some attacking freedom as your RB is very unlikely to contribute in attack and also he has been given defensive instructions to cover for Beckenbauer.
Think Pat/Skizzo left side is getting exposed here, considering our right side and Joya not really helping him out. A more defensive full back would certainly be better if you are playing with orthodox winger.
On the midfield battle it's always 2 vs 3 when Pat/Skizzo are off the ball - Pat mentioned it couple of posts earlier - so I'm not sure how a lazy fecker
like Laudrup would tilt it in their favor against our trio...It's a massive misconception viewing the older generation of attacking fullbacks being anywhere near the current ones in the offensive outputs. The likes of Nilton Santos, Facchetti, Cabrini etc were unique as they approached their game in a counter attacking manner and surprising the opposition with their sudden forward surges at times but they were absolutely defenders first and foremost and there's no chance Facchetti ever played a single game where he performed in an attacking sense anywhere near to someone like R. Carlos or Marcelo. These days the average fullback is a winger in attack. Alonso at Chelsea, Robertson at Liverpool, Bellerin at Arsenal etc etc. It's night and day from the attacking freedom allowed to defenders in the 60s let alone one who made his name in Catenaccio.
I'd easily bet on Maldini having multiple games where he went forward much more and provided higher offensive output than someone like Nilton or Facchetti while he usually automatically gets shot as the more defensive minded one in such comparisons.
I don't recall saying that at all actuallyThink Pat/Skizzo left side is getting exposed here, considering our right side and Joya not really helping him out. A more defensive full back would certainly be better if you are playing with orthodox winger.
On the midfield battle it's always 2 vs 3 when Pat/Skizzo are off the ball - Pat mentioned it couple of posts earlier - so I'm not sure how a lazy fecker
. What I actually said:That's very much a 3 vs 3, with Laudrup having a limited and manageable defensive brief vs your deepest midfielder, and the two heavyweights taking care of the proper heavy lifting behind him.
Tommy Gemmill in that 1967 EC final is actually one of the earliest examples I've personally seen of a full back constantly bombing forward in a basically modern way, with the likes of Breitner, Marinho etc then doing that in the following decade. I agree though that until recently full backs generally had a much greater requirement to actually be good defenders.
It's frustrating when you're facing a Facchetti or a Nilton (and conversely fecking awesome when you picked them yourself) when they seem to be given all the attacking prowess of a Marcelo while also being impregnable defensively.