The Mourinho Thread: Should he stay or go? | Sacked

[Keefy18]

No im not. But can you can explain why we spent less than Fulham and West Ham in the summer, despite having many positions that needed to be filled and good quality players were available to fill those positions? Maybe you can speculate?
Im curious to know, are you saying its Jose's fault that we didnt recruit the right players in the summer?

Poor examples there aren't they? Fulham are rock bottom of the league mate and West Ham 8 pts behind us currently?

• We out spent Watford and Bournemouth, they are level on pts with us.
• We spent more than Spurs and they are ahead of us by 7 pts and Pochettino as next manager is laughed at by many of our fan base, cause he hasn't won anything!

There's far more to football management than simply money spent. Clubs with far fewer resources in every sense of the word are out performing us, maybe if we spent like Fulham in the summer we could still play like Republic of Ireland circa 1990, hoof ball at its absolute best and be closer to the bottom of the table?

Read Jose's statement released by the club. He mentions that he wanted to push Martial to work harder. The rest, as you yourself put it, are just rumors.

Oh yeah, that's why Martial is refusing to sign a new deal now. Add in De Gea to this as well. No problem with De Gea signing on with Woodward and LVG as his managerial foundation, two years of Jose and he is utterly fed up and is now too refusing to sign with us it seems.

Yes, the manager together with scouting department decide the targets and provide the shortlist of targets. And it seems the CEO decides to not act on that list. If the short-list was provided why weren't the players bought? You've again side stepped my question regarding out going transfers (Darmian, Rojo, Jones)

I've literally provided you with facts.

Darmian was kept because of Jose, Jose stated he was low on defensive cover. You know, after he sold Blind and then loaned out two promising defensive talents in Fosu Mensah and Tuanzebe?

A recent quote from Jose

“For me, it’s good news that Matteo is staying," the United manager said. He’s always an option for us, he’s always a reliable player. We know that his performance level is one where we know that he always does a job for the team - right-back, left-back, starting, on the bench – he always does it.

“He's a fantastic professional. He's a guy that is loved in the group by his human nature too, so for me, in the end, it's good news if Matteo is not leaving.”

Similarly he has kept Jones and Rojo and activated the one year extensions on their deals I believe? So, what exactly am I sidestepping? I'm literally providing you with quotes and evidence from the manager that he wants to keep many, many players our supporters believe to be deadwood. But we have folks like yourself, blaming Woodward for that.

At the risk of sounding like a broken record here... I ask again, how is that LVG can complete more transfer business in 4 transfer windows, without Woodward blocking him might I add, than Jose can in five transfer windows?

The only change in that scenario is what? LVG to Jose. The latter simply hasn't a scooby doo (clue) what he wants from his team after 2 and a bit seasons and is dragging his feet and rewarding mediocrity and fringe players with new deals.

Ribalta is employed by Woodward not Jose. No one knows if Ribalta joined because of the possible signing of Morata or because he was Jose's man. What we do know, as you have rightly stated, that the chief scout of man united left in the middle of the transfer window. thats not normal and again stinks of instability at the club.

He left for a better job. He was our head scout and was given a role as Sporting Director at Zenit. He said there was no ill feeling but just wanted to take on the more senior role at Zenit.

Whether you like it or not, the buck stops at Woodward. If things are not right off the pitch its Woodward's responsibility. Plain and simple. (Just how it is for Jose, if things are not right on the pitch).

What exactly is not right off the pitch? We are generating record revenue streams like we never have before. He is directly responsible (as you've admitted) for the financial structure and providing our managers with said financial support. He's done that.

If your going to bring up the DoF argument again, I've stated my own belief on why we don't currently have a DoF and it rings true when you consider Jose's recent sentiments at United

“That’s football, that’s football management, I think football is changing and probably football managers should be called head coaches. I think we are more the head coach than the manager,” he said.

Remember these comments?

Just to add more colour on how much of a spoofer Jose is, in the same interview post Leicester City (opening game) he waffled on about playing against a team who spent more. Well that argument quickly went out the window when we got played off the park by Spurs, Burnley and Derby who spent considerably less or nothing at all.

He's a cheque book manager for the vast majority of his career bar his Porto achievements.

My argument is very simple because its not based on sentiments or on assumptions like yours. Woodward should have hired a DOF . He's been on the job for 6 years. Is he just waking up to the idea that we dont have a clear footballing vision? Thats been obvious since Moyes-Van Gaal tenures.

My argument is steeped in reality, facts and quotes as per the above.

Yep in an ideal world our club would have a DoF, But hey.. Gill didn't seem ready to over rule Fergie and put a DoF in above Fergie did he? Gill could well have suggested a DoF upon his retirement and running away the minute his golden ticket (Fergie) expired, but he didn't did he? It's amazing how little blame Gill gets in all this mess and Woodward takes the brunt of it all.

Why didn't Gill have a logical plan in place for Fergies successor? Why didn't he even stay on one extra year to assist Woodward and the Glazers in this new era? To ensure a smoother transistion? He didn't do any of that and amazingly he still rakes in profits as a major share holder and you won't see his name pop up in the mix when folks are playing the blame game.


For an ideal scenario at a club the manager and board work in harmony together, that was happening until there seemed to be some disagreement in the rumoured targets in the summer. Jose seemed to be thinking short term, even though he had recently signed an extension. Why are supporters ignoring this?

Woodward was right to say, hang on I've given you a better deal and want you to look long term at United but you want to sign players for the now. That screams to me he wants quick fire short term success and to piss off with a nice pay day. Woodward is making him do his job, the one he is so very generously paid to do.

Seems to me Woodward wants to keep the peace and not upset the status quo too much and changes like forcing a DoF can be damaging to morale. I mean Jose was refused some transfers in the summer, still got a talented CM and promising right full but chose to have a public fight with players and the board with sly digs in the media against all.

I do wonder what his reaction would have been had Woodward completely over ruled and put in a DoF with it not being his personal preference. I'd argue had that happened we'd be far worse off than we currently are and things currently are pretty god damn awful right now.

 

[Judas]

I commend the energy of posters to still have this thread popping off with replies when we've not played for two weeks.

 

[VeevaVee]

We've not played for two weeks and I'm not looking forward to us playing, more everyone else. I'm sick of rolling my eyes and sighing. I realise that's not everyone's feeling, but for me that's dire in the 3rd season. What little hope I have is aimed towards not rolling my eyes constantly every game, which isn't exactly exciting. He's put himself in a position where even that looks like a big task.

 

[VP89]

Poor examples there aren't they? Fulham are rock bottom of the league mate and West Ham 8 pts behind us currently?

• We out spent Watford and Bournemouth, they are level on pts with us.
• We spent more than Spurs and they are ahead of us by 7 pts and Pochettino as next manager is laughed at by many of our fan base, cause he hasn't won anything!

There's far more to football management than simply money spent. Clubs with far fewer resources in every sense of the word are out performing us, maybe if we spent like Fulham in the summer we could still play like Republic of Ireland circa 1990, hoof ball at its absolute best and be closer to the bottom of the table?




Oh yeah, that's why Martial is refusing to sign a new deal now. Add in De Gea to this as well. No problem with De Gea signing on with Woodward and LVG as his managerial foundation, two years of Jose and he is utterly fed up and is now too refusing to sign with us it seems.




I've literally provided you with facts.

Darmian was kept because of Jose, Jose stated he was low on defensive cover. You know, after he sold Blind and then loaned out two promising defensive talents in Fosu Mensah and Tuanzebe?

A recent quote from Jose

“For me, it’s good news that Matteo is staying," the United manager said. He’s always an option for us, he’s always a reliable player. We know that his performance level is one where we know that he always does a job for the team - right-back, left-back, starting, on the bench – he always does it.

“He's a fantastic professional. He's a guy that is loved in the group by his human nature too, so for me, in the end, it's good news if Matteo is not leaving.”

Similarly he has kept Jones and Rojo and activated the one year extensions on their deals I believe? So, what exactly am I sidestepping? I'm literally providing you with quotes and evidence from the manager that he wants to keep many, many players our supporters believe to be deadwood. But we have folks like yourself, blaming Woodward for that.

At the risk of sounding like a broken record here... I ask again, how is that LVG can complete more transfer business in 4 transfer windows, without Woodward blocking him might I add, than Jose can in five transfer windows?

The only change in that scenario is what? LVG to Jose. The latter simply hasn't a scooby doo (clue) what he wants from his team after 2 and a bit seasons and is dragging his feet and rewarding mediocrity and fringe players with new deals.



He left for a better job. He was our head scout and was given a role as Sporting Director at Zenit. He said there was no ill feeling but just wanted to take on the more senior role at Zenit.



What exactly is not right off the pitch? We are generating record revenue streams like we never have before. He is directly responsible (as you've admitted) for the financial structure and providing our managers with said financial support. He's done that.

If your going to bring up the DoF argument again, I've stated my own belief on why we don't currently have a DoF and it rings true when you consider Jose's recent sentiments at United

“That’s football, that’s football management, I think football is changing and probably football managers should be called head coaches. I think we are more the head coach than the manager,” he said.

Remember these comments?

Just to add more colour on how much of a spoofer Jose is, in the same interview post Leicester City (opening game) he waffled on about playing against a team who spent more. Well that argument quickly went out the window when we got played off the park by Spurs, Burnley and Derby who spent considerably less or nothing at all.

He's a cheque book manager for the vast majority of his career bar his Porto achievements.




My argument is steeped in reality, facts and quotes as per the above.

Yep in an ideal world our club would have a DoF, But hey.. Gill didn't seem ready to over rule Fergie and put a DoF in above Fergie did he? Gill could well have suggested a DoF upon his retirement and running away the minute his golden ticket (Fergie) expired, but he didn't did he? It's amazing how little blame Gill gets in all this mess and Woodward takes the brunt of it all.

Why didn't Gill have a logical plan in place for Fergies successor? Why didn't he even stay on one extra year to assist Woodward and the Glazers in this new era? To ensure a smoother transistion? He didn't do any of that and amazingly he still rakes in profits as a major share holder and you won't see his name pop up in the mix when folks are playing the blame game.


For an ideal scenario at a club the manager and board work in harmony together, that was happening until there seemed to be some disagreement in the rumoured targets in the summer. Jose seemed to be thinking short term, even though he had recently signed an extension. Why are supporters ignoring this?

Woodward was right to say, hang on I've given you a better deal and want you to look long term at United but you want to sign players for the now. That screams to me he wants quick fire short term success and to piss off with a nice pay day. Woodward is making him do his job, the one he is so very generously paid to do.

Seems to me Woodward wants to keep the peace and not upset the status quo too much and changes like forcing a DoF can be damaging to morale. I mean Jose was refused some transfers in the summer, still got a talented CM and promising right full but chose to have a public fight with players and the board with sly digs in the media against all.

I do wonder what his reaction would have been had Woodward completely over ruled and put in a DoF with it not being his personal preference. I'd argue had that happened we'd be far worse off than we currently are and things currently are pretty god damn awful right now.

Every point in this post is terribly presumptuous. From claiming that DDG only got sick and tired under mourinho (even though he wanted out under LVG and had an agreement to go to Real if not got a slow fax machine), to pointing to a number of completed transfers to elude to transfer accumen, rather than going for quality.

Seriously. And on top youre trying to protect Woodward by pointing to Jose keeping deadweight. He'd obviously shift the deadweight after he gets his players in. Not the other way round.

 

[Vanya]

Poor examples there aren't they? Fulham are rock bottom of the league mate and West Ham 8 pts behind us currently?

• We out spent Watford and Bournemouth, they are level on pts with us.
• We spent more than Spurs and they are ahead of us by 7 pts and Pochettino as next manager is laughed at by many of our fan base, cause he hasn't won anything!

There's far more to football management than simply money spent. Clubs with far fewer resources in every sense of the word are out performing us, maybe if we spent like Fulham in the summer we could still play like Republic of Ireland circa 1990, hoof ball at its absolute best and be closer to the bottom of the table?

I think you're brilliant at shifting the goal posts and sidestepping questions, i have to give yo that.

The argument isnt if money = performance. Theres no doubt we're under-performing. thats Jose's business.

The question is - why didnt Woodward invest in the team? If its because he doesnt trust Jose with the money -Woodward isnt qualified to make that decision, he's an accountant. and secondly, If he doesnt trust jose then whats jose still doing here as a manager? he should be gone by now. This is just mismangement and half measures.

Oh yeah, that's why Martial is refusing to sign a new deal now. Add in De Gea to this as well. No problem with De Gea signing on with Woodward and LVG as his managerial foundation, two years of Jose and he is utterly fed up and is now too refusing to sign with us it seems.

Baseless and again concocted and presented as Reality.

What exactly is not right off the pitch? We are generating record revenue streams like we never have before. He is directly responsible (as you've admitted) for the financial structure and providing our managers with said financial support. He's done that.

If your going to bring up the DoF argument again, I've stated my own belief on why we don't currently have a DoF and it rings true when you consider Jose's recent sentiments at United

“That’s football, that’s football management, I think football is changing and probably football managers should be called head coaches. I think we are more the head coach than the manager,” he said.

Remember these comments?

Just to add more colour on how much of a spoofer Jose is, in the same interview post Leicester City (opening game) he waffled on about playing against a team who spent more. Well that argument quickly went out the window when we got played off the park by Spurs, Burnley and Derby who spent considerably less or nothing at all.

He's a cheque book manager for the vast majority of his career bar his Porto achievements.

No it doesnt ring true. Its nonsense.

You go into tangents that are completely unrelated. Stick to the point. Theres no logical reason why Woodward hasnt employed a DOF by now and you know it. Jose's tantrums argument based on your sentiments are the most feeble unrealistic argument.

My argument is steeped in reality, facts and quotes as per the above.

Yep in an ideal world our club would have a DoF, But hey.. Gill didn't seem ready to over rule Fergie and put a DoF in above Fergie did he? Gill could well have suggested a DoF upon his retirement and running away the minute his golden ticket (Fergie) expired, but he didn't did he? It's amazing how little blame Gill gets in all this mess and Woodward takes the brunt of it all.

Why didn't Gill have a logical plan in place for Fergies successor? Why didn't he even stay on one extra year to assist Woodward and the Glazers in this new era? To ensure a smoother transistion? He didn't do any of that and amazingly he still rakes in profits as a major share holder and you won't see his name pop up in the mix when folks are playing the blame game.


For an ideal scenario at a club the manager and board work in harmony together, that was happening until there seemed to be some disagreement in the rumoured targets in the summer. Jose seemed to be thinking short term, even though he had recently signed an extension. Why are supporters ignoring this?

Woodward was right to say, hang on I've given you a better deal and want you to look long term at United but you want to sign players for the now. That screams to me he wants quick fire short term success and to piss off with a nice pay day. Woodward is making him do his job, the one he is so very generously paid to do.

Seems to me Woodward wants to keep the peace and not upset the status quo too much and changes like forcing a DoF can be damaging to morale. I mean Jose was refused some transfers in the summer, still got a talented CM and promising right full but chose to have a public fight with players and the board with sly digs in the media against all.

I do wonder what his reaction would have been had Woodward completely over ruled and put in a DoF with it not being his personal preference. I'd argue had that happened we'd be far worse off than we currently are and things currently are pretty god damn awful right now.

No its not.

"Yep in an ideal world our club would have a DoF" - so after all that we do agree that a DOF should be employed by now. What was the need to keep going? Thats enough proof to show that Woodward is a bit clueless. None of the things you've mentioned have anything to do with Woodward's incompetence. In fact a lot of it is factually inaccurate (Gill decided to retire before Ferguson decided to retire).

Employing a DOF would be damaging to morale??? So its taken for granted that this DOF would not see eye to eye with Jose from day 1. You've already decided this for Jose. Thanks. I'll let him know.

You have shown that you are completely biased and for you Woodward can do no wrong. No point arguing further because we're going around in circles now.

 

[Random Task]

We're 402 pages into this thread and we're yet to see a solid case put forward by the Jose In brigade.

"It's all Ed's fault"

"We need to keep Jose because of reasons"

"The press have bullied him"

"He might turn it around"

And my personal favourite: "We're United. We don't sack managers just because they are shit. Gary Neville said so."

It's all rather tame.

 

[E-mal]

Am fed up with the to and fro discussion, just sack him now.

 

[cheeky_backheel]

Oh yeah, that's why Martial is refusing to sign a new deal now. Add in De Gea to this as well. No problem with De Gea signing on with Woodward and LVG as his managerial foundation, two years of Jose and he is utterly fed up and is now too refusing to sign with us it seems.

The reports are that both players simply want higher wages than were initially offered by the club given what we are paying Sanchez. There is no evidence that the contract renewal problem has anything to do with Mourinho being manager but that doesnt matter to some, cos everything is Mourinho's fault.

 

[fellaini's barber]

Am fed up with the to and fro discussion, just sack him now.

Tbf we need a better reason to fire him than because of the mentalness of this thread

 

[fellaini's barber]

We're 402 pages into this thread and we're yet to see a solid case put forward by the Jose In brigade.

"It's all Ed's fault"

"We need to keep Jose because of reasons"

"The press have bullied him"

"He might turn it around"

And my personal favourite: "We're United. We don't sack managers just because they are shit. Gary Neville said so."

It's all rather tame.

'He's not been backed'
'All the players he signed are Woodward/board/4th choice players'
'Our previous managers have been shit and Jose too is now shit,the problem is the club'
'Woodward has hired 3 crap managers in a row,he needs to go first'
'Maguire'

 

[cheeky_backheel]

We're 402 pages into this thread and we're yet to see a solid case put forward by the Jose In brigade.

"It's all Ed's fault"

"We need to keep Jose because of reasons"

"The press have bullied him"

"He might turn it around"

And my personal favourite: "We're United. We don't sack managers just because they are shit. Gary Neville said so."

It's all rather tame.

Dont think its difficult to see

Option #1 - Fire Mourinho ASAP and hire another manager, hoping that the next manager is the right one. Problem is that is what has been done by Ed with 3 managers in 6yrs. Going by history, it is more likely we bring in another manager who will struggle to achieve the desired goals. If Moyes, LvG and Mourinho were all the wrong managers, then why would anyone expect Ed to get it right this time. Also there are obvious issues with the quality of the squad and our transfer dealings (buying and selling) that affect what can be achieved on the pitch and a new manager wont fix this

Option #2 - Leave Mourinho for now, but hire a DoF ASAP. Have him assess the situation and come up with a long term plan before the summer. Let him decide if and when the firing of Mourinho fits into the plan and who the next manager should be. If Mourinho is fired before a DoF, it makes the job of the DoF harder has he has less body of work on the new manager and may need to wait and see how he fits weighed against the consequence of immediate firing. The DoF would also address issues with squad management and transfer dealings.

My preference is option #2 cos I believe getting Ed out of the football side is more important than hiring a new manager. Think many overrate the importance of managers in long term success, when many clubs have been successful despite frequent managerial changes. Those clubs succeed cos of the environment they provide such that even mediocre managers (like Mancini and Schuster) can achieve a degree of success. Any manager needs the right environment to succeed and I dont think Ed managing football provides such an environment.

 

[fellaini's barber]

Dont think its difficult to see

Option #1 - Fire Mourinho ASAP and hire another manager, hoping that the next manager is the right one. Problem is that is what has been done by Ed with 3 managers in 6yrs. Going by history, it is more likely we bring in another manager who will struggle to achieve the desired goals. If Moyes, LvG and Mourinho were all the wrong managers, then why would anyone expect Ed to get it right this time. Also there are obvious issues with the quality of the squad and our transfer dealings (buying and selling) that affect what can be achieved on the pitch and a new manager wont fix this

Option #2 - Leave Mourinho for now, but hire a DoF ASAP. Have him assess the situation and come up with a long term plan before the summer. Let him decide if and when the firing of Mourinho fits into the plan and who the next manager should be. If Mourinho is fired before a DoF, it makes the job of the DoF harder has he has less body of work on the new manager and may need to wait and see how he fits weighed against the consequence of immediate firing. The DoF would also address issues with squad management and transfer dealings.

My preference is option #2 cos I believe getting Ed out of the football side is more important than hiring a new manager. Think many overrate the importance of managers in long term success, when many clubs have been successful despite frequent managerial changes. Those clubs succeed cos of the environment they provide such that even mediocre managers (like Mancini and Schuster) can achieve a degree of success. Any manager needs the right environment to succeed and I dont think Ed managing football provides such an environment.

Sorry but everything about your option 1 and 2 is outright bollocks,I tried to make sense of it but there just isn't any. Perez and Madrid have gone through more managers in 2 years than Ed has in 6 years and I don't hear anyone calling for his head. They're still the most successful club in world football. And you repeatedly mentioned how the next manager we appoint will struggle like how the feck do you know? Did LVG,Moyes and Jose struggle because Ed appointed them or because maybe they're just crap. So you think if it's the DOF you talk about that hired those same 3 guys they'll be successful? You're sure whoever Ed hires will strugle but once we fire Ed whoever we hire through the DOF will be successful? What bullshit logic is that?

Your whole option 2 is hilarious, we fire Ed, then the DOF comes in to 'see when firing Jose fits into the plan'...Bloody hell. What fecking situation does the DOF have to 'assess'. Jose had Chelsea at 16th they didn't go after their DOF,they just fired him, and so does pretty much every football club. I'm all for Ed leaving the football side of things, my own reason being that he's too lenient with managers.

 

[VP89]

We're 402 pages into this thread and we're yet to see a solid case put forward by the Jose In brigade.

"It's all Ed's fault"

"We need to keep Jose because of reasons"

"The press have bullied him"

"He might turn it around"

And my personal favourite: "We're United. We don't sack managers just because they are shit. Gary Neville said so."

It's all rather tame.

Literally no one has said this.

 

[Leftback99]

We're 402 pages into this thread and we're yet to see a solid case put forward by the Jose In brigade.

"It's all Ed's fault"

"We need to keep Jose because of reasons"

"The press have bullied him"

"He might turn it around"

And my personal favourite: "We're United. We don't sack managers just because they are shit. Gary Neville said so."

It's all rather tame.

Equally i haven't seen a solid case from the Jose out crew for:
- Sacking him immediately
- Paying the £25m+ to do so (which will directly hit any future transfer budget which is already constrained)
- Hiring a realistic alternative to take over the job and convincing me that they are likely to do any better with this squad.

Hence i'm still on the fence with it.

 

[fellaini's barber]

Equally i haven't seen a solid case from the Jose out crew for:
- Sacking him immediately
- Paying the £25m+ to do so (which will directly hit any future transfer budget which is already constrained)
- Hiring a realistic alternative to take over the job and convincing me that they are likely to do any better with this squad.

Hence i'm still on the fence with it.

We'll lose a lot more than £25m if we miss out on CL, we might even lose some players. The football is dire too so if you want the club to keep him there should definitely be better reasons than 'no alternatives'. Like what do you honestly think we have to gain from keeping Jose or what do we lose by firing him, I really want to know

 

[Leftback99]

We'll lose a lot more than £25m if we miss out on CL, we might even lose some players. The football is dire too so if you want the club to keep him there should definitely be better reasons than 'no alternatives'. Like what do you honestly think we have to gain from keeping Jose or what do we lose by firing him, I really want to know

We are no more likely to qualify for the CL next season with this squad with any other manager and we'll already be £25m+ down. What is your plan if we sack him immediately? Convince me it's a good idea.

 

[cheeky_backheel]

Sorry but everything about your option 1 and 2 is outright bollocks,I tried to make sense of it but there just isn't any. Perez and Madrid have gone through more managers in 2 years than Ed has in 6 years and I don't hear anyone calling for his head. They're still the most successful club in world football. And you repeatedly mentioned how the next manager we appoint will struggle like how the feck do you know? Did LVG,Moyes and Jose struggle because Ed appointed them or because maybe they're just crap. So you think if it's the DOF you talk about that hired those same 3 guys they'll be successful? You're sure whoever Ed hires will strugle but once we fire Ed whoever we hire through the DOF will be successful? What bullshit logic is that?

As usual, you assign false claims cos I never said the next manager appointed would definitely struggle but that he is more likely to struggle than succeed given the historical evidence.

would you keep changing your car battery if your had a flat tire? If the problem is not with the managers why would hiring a new manager fix it, and, if the problem is elsewhere of the pitch and can be fixed by a DoF who knows more about football why wont a new manager succeed. The real problem is we dont know where the problem is but have changed managers with little to no improvement and its only common sense to have a new DoF determine how to fix things. its sheer stupidity to keep changing managers just in the hope that one might work

Its interesting that you brought up Perez. During his first stint as Madrid president, Perez initiated the Galactico project signing super stars like Figo, Zidane etc, to be paired with lesser talents like Pavon, but despite initial success (2 la liga and 1 CL in ) the club performances continued to decline despite having 6 managers in 3 seasons, until Perez himself had to resign. But following your logic Perez should have remained in office and keep on changing managers.

In his second stint, he has had more success not cos the managers hired were more spectacular but that the environment provided was more conducive for success, with a more balance squad as opposed to the Zidane+Pavon of his first stint.

Your whole option 2 is hilarious, we fire Ed, then the DOF comes in to 'see when firing Jose fits into the plan'...Bloody hell. What fecking situation does the DOF have to 'assess'. Jose had Chelsea at 16th they didn't go after their DOF,they just fired him, and so does pretty much every football club. I'm all for Ed leaving the football side of things, my own reason being that he's too lenient with managers.

another false claim assigned cos I didnt say fire Ed but have someone else be responsible for football decisions. You are obviously.willing to repeatedly twist facts to serve your agenda.

If you agree that some one more capable should make the football decision why do you have a problem with the idea that the DoF might feel it better to keep Mourinho for now, particularly if his preferred alternative is not yet available. Even then why are you so quick to reject the idea that he might want Mourinho should continue, particularly he feels the changes needed are elsewhere. I personally have limited trust in the judgment of anyone that makes a decision without a prproper assessment of the situation. But you are convinced of your superior choice to the DoF despite not having all the fact and lack requisite expertise in it. Is it that you are more interested in firing Mourinho than the success of the club?

Chelsea have a well established system in place with people who know about the game making the decisions. Those same people you credit for firing Mourinho also made the decision to hire him in the first place despite his prior reputation and record at the same club (similar to rumors linking him with Madrid - you would think Perez should know better eh?). The choice of Chelsea executives was proven right by him delivering a PL title. A similar process occurred with Conte and many other managers - initial success then conflicts and firing. Given that their managers tend to succeed and get fired the next season, it is only logical to conclude that the results is more dependent on the system in place than the manager hired.The

I cant think of any successful top club who has someone as clueless about the game as Ed is making football decisions, but someo people expect a miracle working manager to bring success.

 

[fellaini's barber]

As usual, you assign false claims cos I never said the next manager appointed would definitely struggle but that he is more likely to struggle than succeed given the historical evidence.

would you keep changing your car battery if your had a flat tire? If the problem is not with the managers why would hiring a new manager fix it, and, if the problem is elsewhere of the pitch and can be fixed by a DoF who knows more about football why wont a new manager succeed. The real problem is we dont know where the problem is but have changed managers with little to no improvement and its only common sense to have a new DoF determine how to fix things. its sheer stupidity to keep changing managers just in the hope that one might work

Its interesting that you brought up Perez. During his first stint as Madrid president, Perez initiated the Galactico project signing super stars like Figo, Zidane etc, to be paired with lesser talents like Pavon, but despite initial success (2 la liga and 1 CL in ) the club performances continued to decline despite having 6 managers in 3 seasons, until Perez himself had to resign. But following your logic Perez should have remained in office and keep on changing managers.

In his second stint, he has had more success not cos the managers hired were more spectacular but that the environment provided was more conducive for success, with a more balance squad as opposed to the Zidane+Pavon of his first stint.
another false claim assigned cos I didnt say fire Ed but have someone else be responsible for football decisions. You are obviously.willing to repeatedly twist facts to serve your agenda.

If you agree that some one more capable should make the football decision why do you have a problem with the idea that the DoF might feel it better to keep Mourinho for now, particularly if his preferred alternative is not yet available. Even then why are you so quick to reject the idea that he might want Mourinho should continue, particularly he feels the changes needed are elsewhere. I personally have limited trust in the judgment of anyone that makes a decision without a prproper assessment of the situation. But you are convinced of your superior choice to the DoF despite not having all the fact and lack requisite expertise in it. Is it that you are more interested in firing Mourinho than the success of the club?

Chelsea have a well established system in place with people who know about the game making the decisions. Those same people you credit for firing Mourinho also made the decision to hire him in the first place despite his prior reputation and record at the same club (similar to rumors linking him with Madrid - you would think Perez should know better eh?). The choice of Chelsea executives was proven right by him delivering a PL title. A similar process occurred with Conte and many other managers - initial success then conflicts and firing. Given that their managers tend to succeed and get fired the next season, it is only logical to conclude that the results is more dependent on the system in place than the manager hired.The

I cant think of any successful top club who has someone as clueless about the game as Ed is making football decisions, but someo people expect a miracle working manager to bring success.

So our next manager is likely to struggle because LVG,Moyes and Jose struggled and the key to making sure the next manager does not struggle is Ed. Not because Moyes was out of his depth and only got the job because of Fergie, or because LVG bought a shedload of shite players and had us passing the ball sideways without registering shots on targets for several games on end, or because Jose can't coach a team of Martial,Pogba,Sanchez to play attacking football, no they all struggled because of Ed. You claim Ed is at fault for hiring 3 shite managers, so now you want us to keep one of those managers, then get rid of Ed. Did you suggest this under Moyes and LVG too? When we were passing the ball sideways under under him where you thinking ' oh we really really need to get rid of Ed,this is his fault'? Or you started this theory because your Jose, who is blameless in the whole 'situation' as you call it, is the manager. Feck me you write a load of bollocks, attributing Perez success to Galacticos without one mention of the manager, like even if they hired Moyes Madrid would have been successful anyway. 'In his second stint he was more succesful not because the managers he hired were spectacular but the environment was more conducive'...do you even think before writing all this nonsense? What happened to Jose in this conducive environment? Why didn't Benitez succeed and why has Lopteugui been fired since its the fecking environment?

Anyways it's not like anything you ever say makes sense when it comes to Jose so our conversations are just a waste of time. Just going to say this, the primary reason people like myself and most of United fans are sick and tired of Jose is the football. Personally the first day I posted that I wanted him out is after the Celta Vigo game despite the fact that we won. That is definitely one of the worst United performaces I've ever seen,it was horrendous. We've had a lot more shitty performances like that than good ones since then. Nobody needs a world class squad to play beter football than this shit mate, and no one definitely can watch that kind of tripe and start pointing fingers at Ed. That's as stupid as blaming the Glazers for Lukaku's first touch. They're not related in any way.

 

[Random Task]

Dont think its difficult to see

Option #1 - Fire Mourinho ASAP and hire another manager, hoping that the next manager is the right one. Problem is that is what has been done by Ed with 3 managers in 6yrs. Going by history, it is more likely we bring in another manager who will struggle to achieve the desired goals. If Moyes, LvG and Mourinho were all the wrong managers, then why would anyone expect Ed to get it right this time. Also there are obvious issues with the quality of the squad and our transfer dealings (buying and selling) that affect what can be achieved on the pitch and a new manager wont fix this

Option #2 - Leave Mourinho for now, but hire a DoF ASAP. Have him assess the situation and come up with a long term plan before the summer. Let him decide if and when the firing of Mourinho fits into the plan and who the next manager should be. If Mourinho is fired before a DoF, it makes the job of the DoF harder has he has less body of work on the new manager and may need to wait and see how he fits weighed against the consequence of immediate firing. The DoF would also address issues with squad management and transfer dealings.

My preference is option #2 cos I believe getting Ed out of the football side is more important than hiring a new manager. Think many overrate the importance of managers in long term success, when many clubs have been successful despite frequent managerial changes. Those clubs succeed cos of the environment they provide such that even mediocre managers (like Mancini and Schuster) can achieve a degree of success. Any manager needs the right environment to succeed and I dont think Ed managing football provides such an environment.

The last 3 managers have failed dramatically, but by no means does that make them bad appointments by the man who hired them - at least not at the time - it only appears that way due to your misplaced use of hindsight. Let's assess the reasoning behind the last 3 managerial appointments.

David Moyes:

Moyes was appointed following a glowing endorsement by arguably the greatest football manager the world has ever seen, Fergie. A manager who held more influence at the club than a man in his position realistically should. So much so, in fact, that he was permitted to choose his own successor. A terrible mistake in hindsight, but at the time who would have dared argue with Fergie? Certainly not Ed Woodward. By putting his faith in the great man's judgement, he simply did what any man of sane mind would have done in that scenario. You would have done the same thing and so would I. Don't kid yourself otherwise.

Louis Van Gaal:

After the embarrassment that was the Moyes debacle, we needed an experienced hand in charge of the club. A man with a proven track record for steadying a sinking ship and building the foundation for future success. We needed a larger-than-life character who was accustomed to the day-to-day running of a huge football club. LVG was that man. Yes, he ultimately failed but the reasoning behind the decision to recruit him was perfectly logical.

Jose Mourinho:

It had been 3 years since Fergie retired and the club we were nowhere near to winning a league title. Fans were becoming restless, shareholders too. Pundits were mocking us, our rivals laughing at us. We were the new Liverpool. The new laughing stock. Feck that, said Ed. The club needed success, desperately. Who do you look to when you want to win trophies in the world of football? The answer is obvious, you recruit the second most successful football manager of the modern era, none other than Jose Mourinho. Yes he had a reputation for being a cnut, yes he played boring football, but who cares about such trivialities when the guy has won league titles at every club he has ever managed. His success at United was nigh-on guaranteed - we just needed to give him enough money to make it a reality. Around £400 million should be enough for a manager of Jose's ability right? Wrong, he failed and continues to fail. But given the circumstances at the time, was the decision to recruit him a bad one on Ed's part? Put yourself in his shoes and answer honestly.

All 3 managerial appointments post-SAF were bourne of sound logic and reasoning, and I doubt anyone else in Ed's position would have done things any better.

 

[cheeky_backheel]

So our next manager is likely to struggle because LVG,Moyes and Jose struggled and the key to making sure the next manager does not struggle is Ed. Not because Moyes was out of his depth and only got the job because of Fergie, or because LVG bought a shedload of shite players and had us passing the ball sideways without registering shots on targets for several games on end, or because Jose can't coach a team of Martial,Pogba,Sanchez to play attacking football, no they all struggled because of Ed. You claim Ed is at fault for hiring 3 shite managers, so now you want us to keep one of those managers, then get rid of Ed. Did you suggest this under Moyes and LVG too? When we were passing the ball sideways under under him where you thinking ' oh we really really need to get rid of Ed,this is his fault'? Or you started this theory because your Jose, who is blameless in the whole 'situation' as you call it, is the manager. Feck me you write a load of bollocks, attributing Perez success to Galacticos without one mention of the manager, like even if they hired Moyes Madrid would have been successful anyway. 'In his second stint he was more succesful not because the managers he hired were spectacular but the environment was more conducive'...do you even think before writing all this nonsense? What happened to Jose in this conducive environment? Why didn't Benitez succeed and why has Lopteugui been fired since its the fecking environment?

Anyways it's not like anything you ever say makes sense when it comes to Jose so our conversations are just a waste of time. Just going to say this, the primary reason people like myself and most of United fans are sick and tired of Jose is the football. Personally the first day I posted that I wanted him out is after the Celta Vigo game despite the fact that we won. That is definitely one of the worst United performaces I've ever seen,it was horrendous. We've had a lot more shitty performances like that than good ones since then. Nobody needs a world class squad to play beter football than this shit mate, and no one definitely can watch that kind of tripe and start pointing fingers at Ed. That's as stupid as blaming the Glazers for Lukaku's first touch. They're not related in any way.

For your information, Mourinho was successful at Madrid, winning the La liga, and CdR against Pep's vaunted team, and getting to 3 consecutive CL semis (a big improvement given Madrid never got past R16 in previous 6 seasons and no worse than Guardiola's CL record at Bayern). Lopetuigi and Benitez were fired cos things deteriorated right from the get go. Zidane was not appointed cos he was had any success cos he actually had a losing record with the castilla team and his replacement achieved more success with the same squad.

Ed has worked with 3 managers and all we have to show for it is a bunch of overpaid average players that he himself cant get rid off. He has hired managers that could have no more divergent a philosophy than LvG and Mourinho. Even Mourinho, with his reputation for short term success has found it difficult to do same. But that is not enough, you want to go on the 4th and if that doesnt work, then the 5th...... At what point do we take the football operations out of Ed's hands - 10yrs? 20yrs never? Let Ed handle the marketing and revenue side he seems well adept at and get someone more competent for foot ball operations.

Also, who is this managerial wizard that Ed has promised you he would hire and will make all your dreams come true? Would you be happy if he hires Conte? But then you probably dont care who the next manager is as long as Mourinho is fired

Unlike you, I am not obsessed with Mourinho being fired or not (firing him wont change his status as a great manager and he would probably find another gig by next season). But I dont want the decision of firing Mourinho and hiring a new manager to be carried out by Ed simply cos I do not trust his judgment on it. Get a DoF in and by summer we should have a clear plan going forward, with or without Mourinho

 

[rhajdu]

I have just realised that Mourinho has some obsession with number 3 and it's not his fabricated 3rd season syndrome.

He just showed 3 of his fingers to the Juventus fans, showed 3 of his fingers to the Chelsea fans... and last year when he celebrated the winning of the Europe League he also showed 3 of his well-known fingers.

Does the supposed 3rd season syndrome kick in and will he show 3 of his fingers to us when he comes back to Old Trafford with his new team?

Please let me know if you can recall any moment when he refered to the number 3 in any way.

 

[cheeky_backheel]

The last 3 managers have failed dramatically, but by no means does that make them bad appointments by the man who hired them - at least not at the time - it only appears that way due to your misplaced use of hindsight. Let's assess the reasoning behind the last 3 managerial appointments.

David Moyes:

Moyes was appointed following a glowing endorsement by arguably the greatest football manager the world has ever seen, Fergie. A manager who held more influence at the club than a man in his position realistically should. So much so, in fact, that he was permitted to choose his own successor. A terrible mistake in hindsight, but at the time who would have dared argue with Fergie? Certainly not Ed Woodward. By putting his faith in the great man's judgement, he simply did what any man of sane mind would have done in that scenario. You would have done the same thing and so would I. Don't kid yourself otherwise.

Louis Van Gaal:

After the embarrassment that was the Moyes debacle, we needed an experienced hand in charge of the club. A man with a proven track record for steadying a sinking ship and building the foundation for future success. We needed a larger-than-life character who was accustomed to the day-to-day running of a huge football club. LVG was that man. Yes, he ultimately failed but the reasoning behind the decision to recruit him was perfectly logical.

Jose Mourinho:

It had been 3 years since Fergie retired and the club we were nowhere near to winning a league title. Fans were becoming restless, shareholders too. Pundits were mocking us, our rivals laughing at us. We were the new Liverpool. The new laughing stock. Feck that, said Ed. The club needed success, desperately. Who do you look to when you want to win trophies in the world of football? The answer is obvious, you recruit the second most successful football manager of the modern era, none other than Jose Mourinho. Yes he had a reputation for being a cnut, yes he played boring football, but who cares about such trivialities when the guy has won league titles at every club he has ever managed. His success at United was nigh-on guaranteed - we just needed to give him enough money to make it a reality. Around £400 million should be enough for a manager of Jose's ability right? Wrong, he failed and continues to fail. But given the circumstances at the time, was the decision to recruit him a bad one on Ed's part? Put yourself in his shoes and answer honestly.

All 3 managerial appointments post-SAF were bourne of sound logic and reasoning, and I doubt anyone else in Ed's position would have done things any better.

The problem I have with the appointment of the managers, and LvG and Mourinho, in particular is that they seem to have been done outside of any long term plan or vision. LvG and Mourinho are philosophical antitheses and to follow one with the other is to commit to a huge squad overhaul and significant transitioning period. The transition would have been less if we had hired Koeman or anyone with a closer philosophy to LvG. That is poor long term planning and not a recipe for success imo.

More importantly is what the empirical evidence shows. We have essentially had 3 pairs of people handling footballing decisions on and off the pitch in the past 6yrs: Ed+Moyes, Ed+LvG, and Ed+Mourinho, with no semblance of a long term success nor those managers even performing up to their own standards. To fire Mourinho now is to try Ed+new manager, when Ed has been the constant part of the prior 3 failures. How many managers do we have to try before we try changing Ed? I would rather start with a DoF+Mourinho/new manger and see if that yields a better result.

These 3 managers we have had are not new to football and have a body of work prior to joining us that can be referenced. It is only Ed that has no prior experience with football operations and can be said to be almost clueless. If someone can show me a successful top flight club, where someone like Ed, with limited football knowledge, is running the show, i will accept that he might not be the problem. But as far I can tell, he is the one that sticks out. But to me, the consequences of having Ed in his position is far more damaging than any bad managerial hire.

 

[RichMet]

I have just realised that Mourinho has some obsession with number 3 and it's not his fabricated 3rd season syndrome.

He just showed 3 of his fingers to the Juventus fans, showed 3 of his fingers to the Chelsea fans... and last year when he celebrated the winning of the Europe League he also showed 3 of his well-known fingers.

Does the supposed 3rd season syndrome kick in and will he show 3 of his fingers to us when he comes back to Old Trafford with his new team?

Please let me know if you can recall any moment when he refered to the number 3 in any way.

He's actually had a reasonable 3rd season for him, given his previous record.

Your best option would be to get shot of him and bring in an Eddie howe or someone of his ilk

 

[Marcus]

Changed my vote to no.

 

[Canagel]

The problem I have with the appointment of the managers, and LvG and Mourinho, in particular is that they seem to have been done outside of any long term plan or vision. LvG and Mourinho are philosophical antitheses and to follow one with the other is to commit to a huge squad overhaul and significant transitioning period. The transition would have been less if we had hired Koeman or anyone with a closer philosophy to LvG. That is poor long term planning and not a recipe for success imo.

More importantly is what the empirical evidence shows. We have essentially had 3 pairs of people handling footballing decisions on and off the pitch in the past 6yrs: Ed+Moyes, Ed+LvG, and Ed+Mourinho, with no semblance of a long term success nor those managers even performing up to their own standards. To fire Mourinho now is to try Ed+new manager, when Ed has been the constant part of the prior 3 failures. How many managers do we have to try before we try changing Ed? I would rather start with a DoF+Mourinho/new manger and see if that yields a better result.

These 3 managers we have had are not new to football and have a body of work prior to joining us that can be referenced. It is only Ed that has no prior experience with football operations and can be said to be almost clueless. If someone can show me a successful top flight club, where someone like Ed, with limited football knowledge, is running the show, i will accept that he might not be the problem. But as far I can tell, he is the one that sticks out. But to me, the consequences of having Ed in his position is far more damaging than any bad managerial hire.

But if Ed goes who will make the commercial deals?
Look at how much money he made for the club. The club have been the most valuable or second most valuable for years despite on pitch failures and that's mainly due to all the sponsorship deals ed has been making.
He should stay but with an appointment of DOF a separation will be made between the commercial and football operations. Ed will not hire any managers and will not have a say on which players arrive in that case
And making football desisions isn't Eds area of expertise but he showed he's getting better at it. He vetoed some of Mourinho targets in the summer because they were deemed overpriced/not worth the money. Isn't that what a DOF does? We could've potentially lost Martial if wasn't for Eds intervention. The club were worried that he would fulfil his potential at another club like they made him the most expensive teenager for a reason . Ed's vision for United is a team which encourages youth development and a team which plays attacking football . He would want nothing more than a United led by the likes of Pogba, Martial and others like Shaw, Periera, Rashford etc I'm 100% sure More in line with the clubs traditions than you believe

 

[cheeky_backheel]

But if Ed goes who will make the commercial deals?
Look at how much money he made for the club. The club have been the most valuable or second most valuable for years despite on pitch failures and that's mainly due to all the sponsorship deals ed has been making.
He should stay but with an appointment of DOF a separation will be made between the commercial and football operations. Ed will not hire any managers and will not have a say on which players arrive in that case
And making football desisions isn't Eds area of expertise but he showed he's getting better at it. He vetoed some of Mourinho targets in the summer because they were deemed overpriced/not worth the money. Isn't that what a DOF does? We could've potentially lost Martial if wasn't for Eds intervention. The club were worried that he would fulfil his potential at another club like they made him the most expensive teenager for a reason . Ed's vision for United is a team which encourages youth development and a team which plays attacking football . He would want nothing more than a United led by the likes of Pogba, Martial and others like Shaw, Periera, Rashford etc I'm 100% sure More in line with the clubs traditions than you believe

wasnt saying Ed should leave the club but that we get a DoF for football operations. After all, the DoF has to report to someone.

Ed seems to be doing quite well with the marketing and revenue side and should remain ceo. But its the football side i think he doesn't get. Dont even think he has the kind of network with other clubs and agents that other people at that level seem to have.

 

[Red_toad]

We're 402 pages into this thread and we're yet to see a solid case put forward by the Jose In brigade.

"It's all Ed's fault"

"We need to keep Jose because of reasons"

"The press have bullied him"

"He might turn it around"

And my personal favourite: "We're United. We don't sack managers just because they are shit. Gary Neville said so."

It's all rather tame.

Certainly not a Jose in person, but I'd say his record of being a serial winner would be a strong case, which has been mentioned in the thread. But lets not let facts get in your way of belittling others opinions.

 

[Greek9]

What if we win the Champions league? Will people still want him gone?

 

[tenpoless]

Should go if there's a good candidate to replace him.

 

[AgentP]

My vote is still yes but we seem to be turning it around (except for the City game). Since there is no clear favorite to replace him for now, it's better to persist with him for some more time and then reevaluate things at the end of the season.

 

[dwd]

What if we win the Champions league? Will people still want him gone?

Can’t see Panathinaikos winning it to be honest.

 

[fellaini's barber]

Certainly not a Jose in person, but I'd say his record of being a serial winner would be a strong case, which has been mentioned in the thread. But lets not let facts get in your way of belittling others opinions.

Most of the main Jose in posters are not saying anything about that. It's been pages upon pages of blaming everyone and everything else...Ed,players,scouts etc

 

[JonDahl]

Certainly not a Jose in person, but I'd say his record of being a serial winner would be a strong case, which has been mentioned in the thread. But lets not let facts get in your way of belittling others opinions.

What record of being a serial winner in his 3rd season at any club and beyond?

 

[Red_toad]

What record of being a serial winner in his 3rd season at any club and beyond?

Why would that be relevant to any discussion? But if you wish won the league and the League Cup with Chelsea during his second tenure there. More of a actually winning things in 14 out of the last 16 season's he's been a manager. Not matter how unpopular he is here, his record speaks for itself. He is indeed a serial winner and I believe he's still got that formula within himself, just he's at the wrong club.

 

[Alabaster Codify7]

Its quite simple. If Jose succeeds,its in his first couple of seasons provided he's backed financially.

That honeymoon period is over. This summer he wasn't backed and we're currently 8th. The man has NEVER proven he can turn around something like this.....thinking he can now,or is willing to,is naive at best.

Mutual separation this summer.

 

[The Mad Manc]

What if we win the Champions league? Will people still want him gone?

Seriously? We haven't the quality.

IF by some miracle that did happen you can't sack him. If he achieves the league or CL he stays, even if the football is dull. Right now, we're not achieving and the football is dull. He doesn't deserve to keep his job IMO

 

[Fracture90]

Why would that be relevant to any discussion? But if you wish won the league and the League Cup with Chelsea during his second tenure there. More of a actually winning things in 14 out of the last 16 season's he's been a manager. Not matter how unpopular he is here, his record speaks for itself. He is indeed a serial winner and I believe he's still got that formula within himself, just he's at the wrong club.

I mean it's pretty relevant tbh. He asked you a perfectly reasonable question.

Mourinho is a serial winner, no question about that because he's won stuff wherever he's been.

But how many of those wins have come during his 3rd year at any club? Best i can think of was Copa del Rey during his last season at Madrid.

I mean you can't use his track record when it suits your narrative but then dismiss the other side of that track record just because it challenges your opinion and narrative.

 

[Phil Osophy]

But how many of those wins have come during his 3rd year at any club? Best i can think of was Copa del Rey during his last season at Madrid.

He lost that final at home against Atletico.

Anyway, even ignoring the third season thing, he's won 2 league trophies in the last 8 years (it will be 9 at the end of this season), and he hasn't played a single CL final in that time. Mourinho WAS a serial winner, but it was sooo long ago.

 

[Bilbo]

His track record is pretty much the only thing he has going for him at the moment

 

[Fracture90]

He lost that final at home against Atletico.

Anyway, even ignoring the third season thing, he's won 2 league trophies in the last 8 years (it will be 9 at the end of this season), and he hasn't played a single CL final in that time. Mourinho WAS a serial winner, but it was sooo long ago.

Yep, you're right, I just went to check and he actually won nothing in his 3rd season with Madrid.