Lukaku : Bulking up with muscle hurt me

[minoo-utd]

dumb.

 

[Fosu-Mens]

But as I've said above, not impossible but it's really hard to drill positional / spatial awareness into someone because it depends more on person's instincts.

The older you are, the more difficult it is to learn something. The timing/positioning before duels can be trained with specific drills and video analysis. The "instincts" is as you state more difficult and more abstract.

 

[Djemba-Djemba]

Not the first time in recent years we've had a player bulk up stupidly.

Depay, Rooney, Valencia, Schweinsteiger, Anderson, Lukaku have all bulked up, some through added muscle and some through just getting fat.

What on earth are we doing at the club? Why does this keep being allowed to happen?

 

[Raees]

I didn't say it's quite impossible, but as you've said it, it's rather improbable he'll ever be able to do it on a level that's required for a top team. But I disagree with a notion that it doesn't have to come naturally, because it's really really hard to drill positional / spatial awareness into someone.

But as I've said above, not impossible but it's really hard to drill positional / spatial awareness into someone

@JPRouve was correct in stating that the best age for developing technical attributes like touch and general technique is when a player is younger, they're far more mouldable then but even as you get older, there is still a large amount that you can train it. However innate ability also plays a part, you could give two players the exact time on the training pitch and still get wildly differing results in terms of how they develop their first touch. To say Lukaku had less training on his first touch over the years compared to say Lewa.. and that is the only reason why his touch is worse, is a weak argument.

As for positional and spatial awareness, that is definitely more coachable into later age, look at the way Pep and Klopp have developed likes of Milner, Henderson, Delph, Sterling etc and their positional games have really gone up a notch under their coaching as their entire gameplan is based upon accurate positioning with and without the ball and thus it forces players to get to grips with understanding where they need to be at the right time.

There are some players who have innate positional awareness and they tend to be the best players, and are allowed to roam the pitch or lead their segment of the pitch as you can trust them to micro-manage their colleagues on the pitch in the heat of battle. Someone like Cruyff, Beckenbauer... they didn't really need much telling in terms of where they need to be on the pitch, they received some guidance of course, but eventually they transcended their coaches in terms of their understanding of the positional side of the game.

In short, innate ability plays a big role in terms of how much coaching/guidance can have an impact. Training first touch to an elite level without innate ability and at a older age is nigh on impossible IMO i.e. a Lukaku could never become a Berbatov even with daily 10 hour sessions, but you can coach a naturally medicore player positionally into a very solid component of a unit and reliable positionally with the right coaching - its not guaranteed, but it is not impossible or as difficult.

 

[Fracture90]

The older you are, the more difficult it is to learn something. The timing/positioning before duels can be trained with specific drills and video analysis. The "instincts" is as you state more difficult and more abstract.

Yeah I agree that he definitely could be timing his jumps better.

 

[Fredo]

So if he loses all those muscles he will have an amazing first touch, will find better goalscoring positions in the box, be fundamental in the attacking build-up etc etc, looking forward to that!

 

[AgentP]

Not the first time in recent years we've had a player bulk up stupidly.

Depay, Rooney, Schweinsteiger, Anderson, Lukaku have all bulked up, some through added muscle and some through just getting fat.

What on earth are we doing at the club? Why does this keep being allowed to happen?

Not just that. Lukaku in the interview says that he knew he was overweight at the start of the season. So why has it taken till December to lose the weight? Even normal people can lose 3-4 kgs in a month. This guy playing a sport like football could have easily lost the extra pounds. But it looks like the big man just can't follow a diet.

 

[Adisa]

What I want to know is why he was playing 90mins every game with all these fitness issues.

 

[Buster15]

Not the first time in recent years we've had a player bulk up stupidly.

Depay, Rooney, Schweinsteiger, Anderson, Lukaku have all bulked up, some through added muscle and some through just getting fat.

What on earth are we doing at the club? Why does this keep being allowed to happen?

Also Javier Hernandez and Michael Owen.
Forwards rely on acceleration which equates to power to weight ratio.

Yes you need strong muscles to achieve this but muscles are heavy so it is vital to get the balance right.

Hernandez now looks much lighter and he is back at his sharpest and scoring again for West Ham.

 

[Skills]

Good that he recognises it. Now if he cuts down, improves his statmina and learns to be a much more active forward off the ball, there's still a very useful player in him.

 

[Mailo]

What an absolute oaf - somebody must've been doing Inception-style manipulation on him, for him to even consider those bulking up thoughts, given his body type. Nothing surprises me anymore. He's a tool.

 

[Irrational.]

I think Lukaku has been exposed. At the youth and lower levels he was able to use his brute strength and athleticism to score bagfuls of goals and inflate his numbers. At the highest level his lack of technical quality is sticking out like a sore thumb and defenders with a bit of nous can easily mark him out of games.

He's not a United quality first team striker and never will be. We either keep him as a back-up striker on the bench or cut our losses, sell him and move on.

 

[Fracture90]

@JPRouve was correct in stating that the best age for developing technical attributes like touch and general technique is when a player is younger, they're far more mouldable then but even as you get older, there is still a large amount that you can train it. However innate ability also plays a part, you could give two players the exact time on the training pitch and still get wildly differing results in terms of how they develop their first touch. To say Lukaku had less training on his first touch over the years compared to say Lewa.. and that is the only reason why his touch is worse, is a weak argument.

As for positional and spatial awareness, that is definitely more coachable into later age, look at the way Pep and Klopp have developed likes of Milner, Henderson, Delph, Sterling etc and their positional games have really gone up a notch under their coaching as their entire gameplan is based upon accurate positioning with and without the ball and thus it forces players to get to grips with understanding where they need to be at the right time.

There are some players who have innate positional awareness and they tend to be the best players, and are allowed to roam the pitch or lead their segment of the pitch as you can trust them to micro-manage their colleagues on the pitch in the heat of battle. Someone like Cruyff, Beckenbauer... they didn't really need much telling in terms of where they need to be on the pitch, they received some guidance of course, but eventually they transcended their coaches in terms of their understanding of the positional side of the game.

In short, innate ability plays a big role in terms of how much coaching/guidance can have an impact. Training first touch to an elite level without innate ability and at a older age is nigh on impossible IMO i.e. a Lukaku could never become a Berbatov even with daily 10 hour sessions, but you can coach a naturally medicore player positionally into a very solid component of a unit and reliable positionally with the right coaching - its not guaranteed, but it is not impossible or as difficult.

I'll disregard the first part because think everyone is aware of the fact technique is more easily coached in the early years. Our discussion wasn't really about that.

Again I haven't said it's impossible, rather more difficult. Milner was always a worker bee and it's famous for his gas tank, but Klopp really hadn't done anything regarding his positional / spatial awareness because he was getting found out on the LB position, ruining offside traps, failing to contain the runners etc. Same thing can be said for Delph and Valencia, still a huge liability due to their position - spatial awareness, but they're able to get away with a bit more leeway due to playing in a better system, being more athletic.

Based on years of watching football and my personal experience playing football, I think there's not a lot of breakthrough you can do to drill/teach positional - spatial awareness into a player that isn't already naturally gifted in that regard. Of course players footballing IQ plays a part in that as well. I could be wrong of course.

 

[SilentWitness]

I said it in another thread that whoever advised him to do this is an idiot, and if it was with Belgium i'd be even more surprised because it's under Martinez where he was playing some of his best stuff and that was as a much leaner Lukaku. His best stuff included being able to have the immense pace and capability to drive past players without needing an amazing touch at all, he had the capability to do that if he was allowed to float out to the wide areas and he showed that in his first season for you guys a bit. He also didn't need any extra strength at all, he was more than capable of bullying defenders in the box to win headers and knockdowns to finish off an attack. The main fundamentals in his game that were poor were technical, nothing to do with physicality.

 

[devilish]

Imagine what mou would have said if Pogba had done something to hinder us to appease France

 

[redIndianDevil]

Lukaku tried to do the Shaquille O'Neal. Put on more weight/muscle to make it impossible for CBs to stop him. Suprisingly such a strategy does not translate well from the NBA to football.

As you correctly state; Lukaku already had enough muscle to beat defenders(too much in my eyes). His two biggest problems appart from his touch are timing and positioning. His lack of competence in these areas are clearly visible on the pitch. The amount of duels he loses to smaller/weaker CBs is too high, and this is due to his positioning before the duel and that he times his jump wrong. If he can fix these shortcomings then he could potentialy be a starting striker for a title winning team. Suarez and Lewandoski are two players Lukaku should study.

IMO his touch is the biggest concern, he gets a good touch, no defender is going to tackle him and he can easily hold them off.

 

[kr0nix]

Imagine what mou would have said if Pogba had done something to hinder us to appease France

It's because Pogba is a bit of a maverick who likes to do things his own way. He contrasts sharply with the more sycophantic Lukaku.

 

[Shark]

Can’t believe there were some posters denying that he’d gotten bigger in his thread. Some people in here will argue for the sake of it.

 

[OldPop]

Not the first time in recent years we've had a player bulk up stupidly.

Depay, Rooney, Valencia, Schweinsteiger, Anderson, Lukaku have all bulked up, some through added muscle and some through just getting fat.

What on earth are we doing at the club? Why does this keep being allowed to happen?

Good question. We focus a lot on the players, coaches and management, rightly so, but the question should also be asked about the rest of the club's organization, is it completely fresh?

How are our physics and health specialists and maybe some other employees responsible for their training, rehabilitation and so on? Do they have the top skills needed for a club that wants to compete at the absolute highest level?

 

[devilish]

It's because Pogba is a bit of a maverick who likes to do things his own way. He contrasts sharply with the more sycophantic Lukaku.

Pogba had two control freaks as managers ie conte and deschamps. None of them had ever complained about him. Could it be that he is being mismanaged? After all most of our players seem to have performed better under a different manager

 

[arthurka]

Liked him much better when he had a large dong over large muscles..

 

[11101]

@JPRouve was correct in stating that the best age for developing technical attributes like touch and general technique is when a player is younger, they're far more mouldable then but even as you get older, there is still a large amount that you can train it. However innate ability also plays a part, you could give two players the exact time on the training pitch and still get wildly differing results in terms of how they develop their first touch. To say Lukaku had less training on his first touch over the years compared to say Lewa.. and that is the only reason why his touch is worse, is a weak argument.

As for positional and spatial awareness, that is definitely more coachable into later age, look at the way Pep and Klopp have developed likes of Milner, Henderson, Delph, Sterling etc and their positional games have really gone up a notch under their coaching as their entire gameplan is based upon accurate positioning with and without the ball and thus it forces players to get to grips with understanding where they need to be at the right time.

I don't think that's really positional and spatial awareness, more just straight instructional training. If A happens you do B, and so on. Its pretty clear i think that this is what coaches like Pep do. Their players must have pages and pages of different situations to learn.

Positional awareness can be trained to some extent. You can train how to react to situations but ultimately the ability to recognise when that situation is coming takes years of training as a kid. I don't want to alert the Chris Smalling defence mob but you can see it a bit with him, he doesn't always see a situation developing when others perhaps would and i chalk it up to missing that top level youth training.

Spatial awareness i don't think can be trained at all once you pass the youth ranks, and even there its minimal. The ability to have a picture of whats around you as the ball comes in is something you either have, or you don't. Personally, when i used to play i trained for years with various coaches and every area of my game improved but you could drop me in centre midfield and i still wouldn't have a clue what was going on around me.

 

[Maticmaker]

Sounds like an excuse for his poor form, but if losing some of the bulk helps Lukaku convince himself, then so be it! I think his reactions are the main problem, especially anticipating a ball coming towards him, he seems to be that split second slower in moving off the mark than his opponent... maybe the ability to overcome the inertia is to do with his bulk?
Surely the physio and training staff would have pointed that out before now?

 

[Meep]

This is so stupid it's sad.

You don't "bulk up with muscles" in a short span of time. You do it through years and years of hard training. If you do it like a real man. This makes no sense. Maybe the national coaches told him to put in an extra effort to peak at the WC and he missunderstood.

How on earth can he, with the pay his getting from United, think that he can relax when he is back at Manchester. It sounds so unexplainably lazy so I've totally lost my interest in having Lukaku in the team.

Third, why does he go public with this totally stupid excuses? It makes him look even dumber.

 

[Zoo]

I said it in another thread that whoever advised him to do this is an idiot, and if it was with Belgium i'd be even more surprised because it's under Martinez where he was playing some of his best stuff and that was as a much leaner Lukaku. His best stuff included being able to have the immense pace and capability to drive past players without needing an amazing touch at all, he had the capability to do that if he was allowed to float out to the wide areas and he showed that in his first season for you guys a bit. He also didn't need any extra strength at all, he was more than capable of bullying defenders in the box to win headers and knockdowns to finish off an attack. The main fundamentals in his game that were poor were technical, nothing to do with physicality.

Hazard is Belgium's star player and he likes to have a strong target man to play off and hold the ball up for him. That's why he said that Giroud was his ideal strike partner and he much prefers him over Morata at Chelsea.

At least the issue has been recognised and Lukaku already looked noticeably slimmer against Fulham on the weekend.

 

[settembrini]

Not the first time in recent years we've had a player bulk up stupidly.

Depay, Rooney, Valencia, Schweinsteiger, Anderson, Lukaku have all bulked up, some through added muscle and some through just getting fat.

What on earth are we doing at the club? Why does this keep being allowed to happen?

Tevez was very stocky when he played for us. At City he noticeably slimmed down and gained a ton of agility and speed.

Shaw has also had weight problems at United, more through adding fat than adding muscle though in his case.

Valencia too added a fair bit of muscle after joining United. I remember Ferdinand tweeting about how much time he spends in the gym and how much weight he can lift as though it was a supposed to be a good thing. I remember thinking that he'd be a better player if he spend that time practising with his left foot!

I'm sure I could think of others if I tried. It's been an issue at the club for a while.

 

[Handré1990]

Don't think he can improve those aspects of his game tbh, unlike first touch and passing which you can somewhat improve with training, those you've mentioned gotta come naturally imo.

Disagree. Rooney suddenly started scoring a lot of headers and tap-ins from the 08/09 seasons. A lot of those came from timing his jumps and runs a lot better, and improved positioning. So it is possible. Of course Rooney was an incredibly gifted and intelligent footballer.

 

[JPRouve]

Hazard is Belgium's star player and he likes to have a strong target man to play off and hold the ball up for him. That's why he said that Giroud was his ideal strike partner and he much prefers him over Morata at Chelsea.

At least the issue has been recognised and Lukaku already looked noticeably slimmer against Fulham on the weekend.

I get your point but Hazard likes Giroud because he can control the ball and pass it cleanly when under physical pressure, it's not just because he is a strong target man. Lukaku lacks the two main attributes.

 

[Fracture90]

Disagree. Rooney suddenly started scoring a lot of headers and tap-ins from the 08/09 seasons. A lot of those came from timing his jumps and runs a lot better, and improved positioning. So it is possible. Of course Rooney was an incredibly gifted and intelligent footballer.

Rooney was always famed for his leaping ability and his strength on the ball despite his somewhat short stature dude.

 

[dannyrhinos89]

Crappy excuse by an even crappier player.

 

[roonster09]

Rooney was always famed for his leaping ability and his strength on the ball despite his somewhat short stature dude.

There was a time when Rooney didn't score a headed goal for years, then it all clicked in 2009-10 season. He improved a lot and IIRC he said he worked a lot on his heading.

 

[Hammondo]

Muscle?

 

[Zoo]

I get your point but Hazard likes Giroud because he can control the ball and pass it cleanly when under physical pressure, it's not just because he is a strong target man. Lukaku lacks the two main attributes.

Yeah that's true am just speculating because I can't think of any other reason why he did that or was asked to with Belgium. It was unnecessary.

 

[Camilo]

His media team read the news and forums and tell him to say things which we'll all agree with. We pat ourselves on the back, give him a bit more of a free pass, he eventually returns to form. "We did that" we all say, feeling smug and knowledgeable. Nothing to do with any change in body shape, which is almost certainly a bollocks. And around we go.

 

[Fracture90]

There was a time when Rooney didn't score a headed goal for years, then it all clicked in 2009-10 season. He improved a lot and IIRC he said he worked a lot on his heading.

@Handré1990 guys initial discussion was about Lukaku's ability to time his jumping and position himself in situations when he gotta shield the ball and jump to bring the hoofball down (something Rooney was great at, despite his somewhat small stature), not his ability to score headers.

But regarding Rooney's headers, the time period you guys have mentioned is the time he became our main attacking opinion, right after Ronaldo (who's famed for his leaping and scoring headers) departed.

 

[Johan07]

Not the first time in recent years we've had a player bulk up stupidly.

Depay, Rooney, Valencia, Schweinsteiger, Anderson, Lukaku have all bulked up, some through added muscle and some through just getting fat.

What on earth are we doing at the club? Why does this keep being allowed to happen?

Rojo has also looked bulked up and looked almost bloated when he was subbed on Saturday. Which he has never been even close to before. There are some questions to be asked of Mourinhos team for sure when it comes to this.

 

[roonster09]

@Handré1990 guys initial discussion was about Lukaku's ability to time his jumping and position himself in situations when he gotta shield the ball and jump to bring the hoofball down (something Rooney was great at, despite his somewhat small stature), not his ability to score headers.

But regarding Rooney's headers, the time period you guys have mentioned is the time he became our main attacking opinion, right after Ronaldo (who's famed for his leaping and scoring headers) departed.

Agree with Lukaku's inability to judge the flight of the ball, don't think he can improve much there. For some reasons his timing is just awful.

Regarding Rooney, he had weakness in the game and he worked on it. He was playing as second striker for most of his Manutd career and he barely scored a headed goal. Remember in 2006-07 when he scored a header vs Arsenal, commentator said that was his first headed goal, after that he scored just 2 headed goal till 2009-10 season. So in first 5-6 years he scored 3 headers in PL for Manutd. It was a clear weakness in his game.

 

[beedoubleyou]

His media team read the news and forums and tell him to say things which we'll all agree with. We pat ourselves on the back, give him a bit more of a free pass, he eventually returns to form. "We did that" we all say, feeling smug and knowledgeable. Nothing to do with any change in body shape, which is almost certainly a bollocks. And around we go.

Where could one purchase a tinfoil hat?

Perhaps from a bus station where our supporter seem busy throwing players when they hit poor form?

 

[sunama]

Everyone, looses weight for the world cup, this lad thinks the opposite, and the funny thing is, the medical and physio department at the club has no problems with him gaining muscle and weight. Just when he started to get exposed, the reactiveness took over to set things right.

I've said this in another thread - our club is underperforming from top to bottom.

I am not a trained doctor, physio or medical specialist, but even I know that a footballer in 2018, needs to be able to run (sprints as well as sustained runs, have good endurance, power and stamina). To do this, he needs to be slim. Someone like Jamie Vardy, IMO is the ideal physique for a footballer. So, if I knew that Lukaku was already too big, how the hell did our club not know?

In our last game against Fulham, there is a picture of Lukaku standing next to a Fulham defender. He is about twice the size of him.

I don't like mentioning Pep, but one thing he did when he first arrived at MCFC, was specify target weights for all the playing staff. Being over-weight was not permitted. Many players fell victim to this and their contracts were allowed to expire. Nasri was probably the most high profile casualty.

Our club is under performing at every single level.

 

[Fracture90]

Agree with Lukaku's inability to judge the flight of the ball, don't think he can improve much there. For some reasons his timing is just awful.

Regarding Rooney, he had weakness in the game and he worked on it. He was playing as second striker for most of his Manutd career and he barely scored a headed goal. Remember in 2006-07 when he scored a header vs Arsenal, commentator said that was his first headed goal, after that he scored just 2 headed goal till 2009-10 season. So in first 5-6 years he scored 3 headers in PL for Manutd. It was a clear weakness in his game.

Yeah of course, learning how to hit the ball with your head and send it where you want it to go can be worked on in training, but learning how to position your body and how to shield the ball with it along with how to time your jumps better is a bit more tricky imo, it's more of a something that gotta come naturally.