I know it's extremely fine margins at this GOAT-laden stage of proceedings, but both LBs are getting a harsh appraisal here imo. I've given Nilton a fair bit of criticism myself in recent times, deservedly so in the case of an ancient Matthews brutalising him, but holding the training ground tales about Garrincha against him is going overboard, not least because there's differing accounts on what actually happened. Evra's defensive frailties are getting over-egged too. His struggles with Aaron Lennon were seen as a a surprising anomaly at the time rather than the norm and it irks me that Ashely Cole generally gets a better reception in drafts (on a fecking Utd forum !) when there was so little between them as players, and Cole himself got abused on a few occasions by Antonio Valencia of all people.
Sheep Draft Final: Enigma/TRV vs 2mufc0
- Thread starter Pat_Mustard
- Start date
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik @Rood and Imran @Annihilate Now! start with the good news by celebrating Manchester United Women's emphatic FA Cup win over Spurs at Wembley and the future of manager Marc Skinner.
Then it's the bad news and the ever worsening form of our Men with losses to Arsenal and Palace.
Finally the main debate - ETH Out now or keep him until the end of the season - if not longer. Are you Team Nik or Team Imran?
They have very different roles mate if you check the OP. Zidane is also a #10 so hardly stepping on the toes of others. Beckenbauer loved playing alongside excellent playmakers and made it work with either Overath and Netzer.
As for Pele - I think I made my point, when the great man himself said this wasn't his best position.
yeah, sometimes you have words standing your way..You can even say with some of the greatest GOAT players of all time
Tells us how vague this term became if we don't even remember what it means.
Being one of the most decorated doesn't really tell you much when it comes to individual level. Seedorf isn't really match for either Neeskens or Beckenbauer in terms of quality and that's hardly debatable.
Puskas was a striker for his entire Real Madrid career. Already posted the zone he played in and alongside much more dominant #10 in Di Stefano (who was also a dick, I agree) and he adapted his game to an all round striker that scored goal per game for many years, winning I think 4 Pichichi's. Hardly you can debate that Puskas was more of a striker compared to Pele who was more of a midfielder in account to his own words!
Puskas here is also in his zone - we have some comments in past games that he needs proper wingers to stretch the play and create space for him - well now he has them and one of the best in that role.
In the middle he has Zidane, Beckenbauer and Neeskens feeding him balls - pretty much as good as it gets.
As for work rate - Best will rinse Gerets if he's left one on one. Garrincha isn't helping him as it was never his game, which was the point in that battle on the pitch.
Wanted to comment on that originally, but forgot. @MJJ's comment especially bugged me — "surely you want best against evra?", like he is some sheep (and I'm not sure if I'd pick Gerets over him in all fairness). Somehow United players in those drafts are either seen as undebatable GOATs or as undeserving frauds who got drafted by mistake, with all their (often uncharacteristic) failures overshadowing whatever good they did during their careers.
Regarding Nilton — it's always going to be a tough task stopping Garrincha, even if you're Maldini. Nilton is arguably the second best choice despite all those training stories — and I like that he finally was moved back to his favourite position.
I've already addressed the Evra issue before but as it's being brought up constantly will do again. To call him merely a servant of Manchester United is quite insulting to his contributions to that 06-09 team. Maybe its expected because TRV is a Liverpool fan and I can't imagine him watching us often during that period. But he was the best left back in the world in that period and an important cog in one of the best PL defenses of all time. Although I do admit he struggled later in his career but we are judging players on their peaks here. He's no sheep and Geret's isn't either.
Not really anyone of us has called him a sheep mate. He was excellent for us, but can't argue he was a bit suspect defensively, compared to his overall contribution, especially in his later career. He also started shaky as we all know and needed time to bed in.
Still he had issues with some skilled wingers and WF(Young Messi also gave him a torrid time) and he is facing some of the best here as well. Still we are considering players at their peak and Amancio was the type that would pose serious troubles for him, Best as well.
Not that he'll struggle against any great winger, but ours have the qualities to get the better of him on certain occasions.
Gerets as well - he isn't in the elite tier of full backs(like for example Nilton is) and Best is as good winger as it gets. Quality wise and at his peak it's fair to say he'll get the better of him, especially having not much support from his winger (Garrincha).
I don't deny later in his career he was dodgy, but those 3 golden years he wasn't badly exposed often at all. And we judge players on 3 year peaks.
He also needed time to bed in and was suspect in the beginning of his career at United.
Calling him the best LB at the time is also a bit of a stretch mate. He was backup to Abidal for the NT and by all accounts didn't have the best NT career either or cover himself with glory for what was going behind the scenes. He was fantastic presence in the dressing room and also quality on the pitch, no one is denying that, but in all time sense, United bias aside, I'm not sure I'd task him defending against elite tier of wingers.
Schulz rarely ever stepped into midfield, but your formation image indicates that Scirea steps up into that space that Beckenbauer typically occupies.
Another more minor concern is Beckenbauer playing as LCM. I've only ever seen him play more on the right but I'm not sure if he played on the left as well at some point.
The same counts for Beckenbauer though. He said this at some point:
"Midfield wasn't alright with me, it was man marking back then. I didn't like it when someone chased after me for 90 minutes and kicked my ankles. That didn't comply with my idea of football. That's why the libero position was just right."
Regarding Evra, I think he was very lucky to be playing alongside a strong defensive core in Rio, Vidic and Van Der Sar. He was never a great defender for me. Was great balance for a 4-4-2 and a great character to have around, but when it came to facing the very best wingers/wide attackers, he always fell short.
Take these three big games against strong flanks for example (go watch the highlights)
1. United 3-2 Bayern (Evra was caught out of position and out of sorts so often, it was embarrassing really. Robben had him for breakfast, lunch and dinner that day. At times, he almost gave up and didnt even care to run back)
2. 2009 UCL final (Again, left so many gaps. Etoo's goal came from that flank. Let down his CB's for me)
3. 2011 UCL final (This was probably equal or even worse than the Bayern game. In the first half, almost everything came from attacks down Evra's flank. A ball sent towards that flank almost always ended in a chance)
Not too difficult to go checkout the highlights for these games. I know there will be folks who think I have gone overboard with my criticism, but you can always counter by providing games where he had a great game against a great flank. I'll be happy to check it out.
Take these three big games against strong flanks for example (go watch the highlights)
1. United 3-2 Bayern (Evra was caught out of position and out of sorts so often, it was embarrassing really. Robben had him for breakfast, lunch and dinner that day. At times, he almost gave up and didnt even care to run back)
2. 2009 UCL final (Again, left so many gaps. Etoo's goal came from that flank. Let down his CB's for me)
3. 2011 UCL final (This was probably equal or even worse than the Bayern game. In the first half, almost everything came from attacks down Evra's flank. A ball sent towards that flank almost always ended in a chance)
Not too difficult to go checkout the highlights for these games. I know there will be folks who think I have gone overboard with my criticism, but you can always counter by providing games where he had a great game against a great flank. I'll be happy to check it out.
His defensive form did drop considerably later, watch any game in the 07/08 run he was fine, even in the famous Scholes vs Barca semi.
And he's also next to two fantastic defenders here, better than Rio and Vidic.
Don't think LCM is an issue for Beckenbauer at all, considering the left flank of ours and that we have enough width on it to make him a central midfielder more than anything.
Also the interpretation of the libero role is something that if you want to transcend to the modern game is much closer to a midfielder rather than a CB to be honest. We had that discussion in the past on various occasions. The thing is - his role doesn't take away from his qualities or how this game will pan out. In regards to Pele, he came from deep and started moves, without having 3 midfielders behind him. That was my point and how he himself explained his role on the pitch.
Either way think we made our points not to delve only in that area of the pitch.
Oh, please do go and watch the highlights. Below is the youtube video.
1. Evra was out of position so many times and Messi had so many good runs down that end only to be blocked by our CB's or retreating midfielders. The commentators actually mention it multiple times in the highlights alone, let alone the full game.
2. All this while Park was baby sitting him on that left flank.
I don't think trying to diminish Evra is a winning strategy personally. He was an elite fullback at this peak. What tipped it for me was the overall defence vs. attack match-up rather than any personal battles.
I can see Nesta dealing with Puskás, Evra struggling but just about managing against Amancio, Gerets struggling against Best and Figueroa dealing with Zidane, with a bit of help from Voronin. But then you can't expect Didi and Seedorf to deal with Neeskens and Beckenbauer, so Voronin gets taken out of the equation altogether. At that point the struggling fullbacks begin to leak chances with Zidane playing them in.
On the flipside I can see Gentile dealing with Stoichkov, Nilton Santos struggling against Garrincha, Forster struggling against Pélé, and Scirea supporting each of them as required to just about hold things together. So even though I think Enigma's losing more individual battles, it's the fact that there's always a spare man that prevents that from being lethal. Whereas I don't see the spare man in 2mufc0's to kill the attack after the individual battles are lost.
I can see Nesta dealing with Puskás, Evra struggling but just about managing against Amancio, Gerets struggling against Best and Figueroa dealing with Zidane, with a bit of help from Voronin. But then you can't expect Didi and Seedorf to deal with Neeskens and Beckenbauer, so Voronin gets taken out of the equation altogether. At that point the struggling fullbacks begin to leak chances with Zidane playing them in.
On the flipside I can see Gentile dealing with Stoichkov, Nilton Santos struggling against Garrincha, Forster struggling against Pélé, and Scirea supporting each of them as required to just about hold things together. So even though I think Enigma's losing more individual battles, it's the fact that there's always a spare man that prevents that from being lethal. Whereas I don't see the spare man in 2mufc0's to kill the attack after the individual battles are lost.
Agree with this. Those displays were disgraceful and shouldn't be celebrated as some sort of great feat of defensive nous. I'd apply the same for Vogts in the 74 final (again a torn shirt).
I don't think there is much debate that gerets is better defensively than evra. You want your biggest attacking threat against the oppositions weakest defender.
Regarding evra he gets rated as such because he never really shone internationally and wasn't the best defensively against top tier attackers which wasnt his role either tbf.
Don't get me wrong mate, not trying to put down Evra. Far from it. Neither he should be considered a sheep of sorts, never implied such.
The thing with Evra, as you can see from the highlights above against Barca, is he was very important to our attack on the left and key member of that great 06-09 team. However his role was a lot more attacking and at times even played as a wingback with the CB and spare midfielder covering for him.
It worked pretty well for us as we had a rock solid base at the back and hardworking midfield which set the stage for him.
His overall presence is lacking today in our side and generally his attacking contribution is what we have missed over the years after he left(I mean we replaced him with Ashley Young).
As you mentioned it's about the attack vs defence matchups and if you want to have a spare man covering for him(so that he plays his natural game) we get a lot of gaps in the middle and also create a lot of chances.
It's not even Evra as the biggest liability in the opposition side. To me that is Seedorf considering who he is up against and the general mechanics of the game like you described. Gerets might as well have even tougher time than Evra, considering he is getting no help from Garrincha. There is our match winning advantage.
In this equation I do have the free man as Voronin will be on Zidane and you have left Seedorf's defensive contributions out. Also its not a given that Gentile would keep Stoichkov quiet, Hristo will be ghosting wide and centrally, if he wants to follow him around that's fine by me, the space created would allow Evra to exploit. I do feel my attack is more fluid in this respect. His wingers won't be supported much by his full backs which will make it easier to defend.
Honestly don’t think these type of arguments are helping you mate as it’s just nonsense imo. You’ve posted one screen grab of Pele saying that he dropped deeper at times and used that as justification for saying he was actually a midfielder and not a forward at all, which is ridiculous.
Pele was a complete player and he could play as a #9, a second striker or a #10. Here he has a free role as a false #9 which seems to incorporate all of the above, giving him the freedom to score or drop deeper to create.
As for Puskas he was not a pure number 9 either, he was quite clearly a second striker - he didn’t lead the line or play on the shoulder and most of his goals were outside the box or from runs from deeper. The difference between Pele and Puskas is that Pele’s skill set is clearly suited to a line leading role, as he has the pace, mobility and aerial ability to forage and probe as a lone striker which Puskas doesn’t possess particularly naturally.
Obviously Puskas’s finishing and technical skills would still make him excellent, so that’s not meant to be a critique on Puskas, but rather just making the point that it’s not his natural role as you keep saying about Pele.
I think that's a very selective of Evra's career. We weren't good enough im possession to dominate most big games so Evra didn't get a chance to be a wing back like Alves. He had to own his entire wing not just the attacking half. We sat deep and withstood loads of pressure, particularly in 08/09 when our midfield and attack caused less difficulties for the opposition. During that time Evra was exceptional in most of his 1v1s.
Seedorf can maybe deal with Neeskens but Didi has no chance against Beckenbauer so Voronin needs to choose between him or Zidane. I don't see him faring well if you ask him to do both.
As for the attacking fluidity, there's one relatively static forward in each and two versatile forwards that will undoubtedly drag their man everywhere. An overlapping fullback can tip that balance but I don't think either team is in a position to get their fullbacks forward in this game. Leaving Evra ahead of Amancio with any frequency will only lead to you being overexposed
I still feel the dynamics of the Scirea-Kaiser-Zidane spine isn't optimal, all doing similar things in the same areas, while it looks great on paper its difficult to see how it works in real life. They will all be stepping on each other's toes. And I'm struggling to find a time where Zidane played behind 2 midfielders like Beckenbauer and Neeskens. He always had the likes of Makelele, Deschamps etc doing the dirty work, would be a great waste of Neeskens and Kaiser's abilities to ask them to do this.
I think in your scenario Figueroa would be the spare defender, what a defender to have spare too.
Agreed. Puskas was a 9.5 and that's all he was. Not out of place where he is now, but not in his perfect position. He would always benefit from a strike partner.
Pele was a 9.5 but could easily be a 9 or a 10. In most occasions he'd benefit from a strike partner, but that's what Stoichkov is doing there. Pele can do his usual thing in this role.
The image of Puskas in that Real Madrid team is misleading because the year before had Di Stefano in that same #9 position. The same argument being used for Pele could be used for di Stefano - he wasn't a #9, he was at home as a total footballer in the #10 role. Yet he was exceptional in the same role as Puskas. And Pele is obviously more capable of playing that role.
That’s it, I don’t know what Gerets did to be rated higher than Evra defensively. His main attributes were his stamina and mentality, he wasn’t a truly elite defender — not all fullbacks are (or even need to be one to be successful). Evra, on the other hand, was an integral part of one of the best defensive set ups of this century, and he wasn’t a gung ho attacking wing back who was a defensive liability, Lennon aside.
You also have to look at their team in the defensive phase too, when I'm attacking, esp on the counter they have no one like Voronin sitting back to sweep up, all of their midfielders are ball players who like to get forward, and with the pace I have on the counter that's only ending one way esp as Didi as the unmarked spare man. While they have the bigger names I believe I have the better chemistry and combination with a DM-B2b-Playmaker midfield. And like I've mentioned before Neeskens best football came as an advanced b2b and using Kaiser as a DM is a waste of his abilities and would conflict with Scirea who's been asked to step up into midfield. I just can't get my head around the dynamics.
Yeah Figueroa would be spare if you have Voronin on Beckenbauer and Zidane. I think that just means Voronin would be overwhelmed and you'd lose. The more likely scenario is that Voronin would be on Beckenbauer almost solely, and Figueroa would be on Zidane almost solely.
Ultimately it comes down to Seedorf not being good enough in attack or defence to occupy one midfielder in either phase. His team has three midfielders doing that. So the midfield imbalance leads to your best defender needing to get involved in the midfield battle, leaving the defence overloaded more often than his would be.
Fine margins but Seedorf is a level below the player you need in that position at this level, IMO.
I have no issues with Beckenbauer and Neeskens being box to box. Both can sweep and both can press, with Beckenbauer doing more of the former. I don't think characterizing Voronin as the lone sweeper and Beckenbauer as just a ball player is a fair representation. He marked Charlton out of a WC final playing a primarily defensive role ahead of a sweeper. In this case he wouldn't need to because Neeskens does the work of two men and Seedorf isn't someone that will prevent him from doing so. Beckenbauer's having a great game in my book.
You expect Zidane to do the defensive work? You also haven't looked at the other end where it's a similar situation.
Obviously Evra would be responsible in his runs forward, which he did demonstrate throughout his career, I expect both wings to stretch his full backs and central defenders for Pele, Didi and the opposite winger to exploit. Gentile playing as RCB provides plenty of space for Hristo to collect the ball deep or wide. Whilst he doesn't have the same attacking full backs to do this job.
This. They're both 9.5s. I'm happy with either as a 9 provided they have the right men around them to make it work. Pele/Garrincha is proven while Stoichkov is the quintessential wing forward who would probably have a higher average position than his CF partner in this system. At the other end, Puskas/Greaves looked like a sound partnership, but kudos to TRV/Enigma for putting Puskas through the middle. My only concern is that Zidane/Puskas axis looks a touch one-paced for me, and even though there is plenty of pace out wide, that makes Nesta and Figueroa's job a tad easier. In comparing the attacks I prefer 2mufc0's both on the cleanness of the system and on the quality of its components.
Can you elaborate why Seedorf wouldn't be able to cover defensively? He was trusted to do this at several clubs winning CL's everywhere. Guys like Casemiro, Park, Deschamps show that you need guys like these in successful teams who put a shift in reliably. And tbh I can't think of many times where Seedorf has let his team down.
Now if I were relying on Seedorf to be my main man in midfield you would have a point, but I'm not he's there to do a specific job which he's more than capable of.
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It seem odd to try to sell the greatest player of all time but sometimes he gets overlooked in tactical battles between two formations. Pele is the best player on the field and by a good margin. In his long and storied career he has faced all kind of defenses, especially defenders who were hell bent on hurting him as it was the only way to stop him. And yet he is probably the most decorated player of all time, which goes to show that having good defense is not really a solution against him. He is likely going to be the difference maker here. But Pele and Garrincha are the big differential in the attack and that is some differential, In my opinion you can't really make it up with a better defense. You really need a Maradona or Messi to counter that. Not to disregard the chemistry of Pele-Garrincha and their incredible undefeated record for Brazil.
He is indeed playing against a very good defense, so here are some of the great defenders and defenses Pele faced -
That's 3 of the greatest defenders of all time !
He was also instrumental in destroying one of the great Italian team riding the wave of Catenaccio, which made them European champions in 1968 & had players from Milan who were Champions league winner in 1969 and Inter's consecutive CL winners. Players such as Burgnich, Facchetti & Rosato, playing in a conservative Italian system and Brazil ripped them to shreds with Pele being the chief architect
Then there were Santos tours to Europe but Italy specifically where he tore more well drilled Catanaccio defenses down. The highlight was of course beating the Italian champions and CL runner up Inter Milan 4-1. That's a defense which let only 1 goal against the attack of Di Stefano and Puskas and no goals against an attack spearheaded by Eusebio.
Antohan summed it up pretty nicely as "The guy was a fecking machine" in this great post - Here's the post he was replying to with some great data -
He is literally tier of his own here and he would make a difference !
Credit @Tuppet
He is indeed playing against a very good defense, so here are some of the great defenders and defenses Pele faced -
That's 3 of the greatest defenders of all time !
He was also instrumental in destroying one of the great Italian team riding the wave of Catenaccio, which made them European champions in 1968 & had players from Milan who were Champions league winner in 1969 and Inter's consecutive CL winners. Players such as Burgnich, Facchetti & Rosato, playing in a conservative Italian system and Brazil ripped them to shreds with Pele being the chief architect
Then there were Santos tours to Europe but Italy specifically where he tore more well drilled Catanaccio defenses down. The highlight was of course beating the Italian champions and CL runner up Inter Milan 4-1. That's a defense which let only 1 goal against the attack of Di Stefano and Puskas and no goals against an attack spearheaded by Eusebio.
Antohan summed it up pretty nicely as "The guy was a fecking machine" in this great post - Here's the post he was replying to with some great data -
Great stats but what you failed to do there, which is far more impressive, is order it by date.
Those were gruelling tours Santos engaged in to raise funds and which ultimately enabled them to keep Pelé (although he didn't earn that much comparatively, even had a shoe store jointly owned with a couple of other players).
I tired to transfer to excel but the formatting went tits up, so just did 1959 for reference, and particularly for those questioning whether he would be fit enough to deal with the modern game:
19 games in 39 days
11 wins, 4 draws, 4 defeats
69 goals for, 36 against, 24 goals scored by Pelé (1.26gpg)
05-26-1959 1-0 - Royal Standard
05-27-1959 4-2 2 RSC Anderlecht
05-30-1959 1-2 – Gentoise
06-03-1959 3-0 1 Feijenoord Rotterdam
06-05-1959 2-3 2 Inter Milano
06-06-1959 6-4 1 Fortuna Düsseldorf
06-07-1959 3-3 – 1. FC Nuremberg
06-09-1959 4-1 1 Servette Geneva
06-11-1959 6-0 1 Selection Hamburg
06-13-1959 7-1 3 Selection Lower-Saxony
06-15-1959 5-0 3 Selection Enschede
06-17-1959 3-5 1 Real Madrid
06-19-1959 2-2 1 Sporting Lisboa
06-24-1959 4-4 1 FC Valencia
06-26-1959 7-1 4 Inter Milano
06-28-1959 5-1 2 FC Barcelona
06-30-1959 4-2 - Genoa
07-02-1959 0-3 – Austria Wien
07-05-1959 2-2 1 Betis Sevilla
Look again at the fixtures, they regularly had to travel back and forth, and probably spent much of their resting time on a plane or train (e.g. 24/6 Valencia, 26/6 Milan, 28/6 Barcelona, 30/6 Genoa, 2/7 Austria Wien and 5/7 Betis back in Sevilla!).
Another remarkable thing is that he actually scores more as the tour progresses and he gets the hang of how these European teams try to go about stopping him
The guy was a fecking machine.
He is literally tier of his own here and he would make a difference !
Credit @Tuppet
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Can Garrincha get this done and win the trophy for Brazilians once again. He and Pele have never lost a game in 40 appearances together. Garrincha himself did not lose a single game until his very last one for Brazil. That is 1 defeat in 60 appearances, he was magic.
In his best performance at world cup 1962, Garrincha scored two goals (a rare header goal and the other after a long distance shot) and took the free-kick that resulted in Vavá’s goal, helping Brazil to knock out the powerful English team.
Concerning that game, the English player Johnny Haynes said: “How do you set about stopping the unstoppable?”.
In his best performance at world cup 1962, Garrincha scored two goals (a rare header goal and the other after a long distance shot) and took the free-kick that resulted in Vavá’s goal, helping Brazil to knock out the powerful English team.
Concerning that game, the English player Johnny Haynes said: “How do you set about stopping the unstoppable?”.
I basically just mean he'd be a passenger at this level. Competent at many things but not able to compete against Neeskens and Beckenbauer. That's true of the vast majority of centre mids, not a unique weakness of Seedorf's. The only difference if you can have some worse players that play a more limited, specialised role that might be more of a handful, but I'm not sure that could make any difference. It's just an unbelievably good midfield.
Seedorf was competent defensively but was never someone like Park or Deschamps who could cancel players out with specific instructions. He wasn't a liability but he wasn't a defensive strength. Offensively he was great, but not good enough to trouble those two in any serious way. He wouldn't be redundant but he wouldn't be influential.
I might be overvaluing the midfield but it's the only area on the pitch that I can see a notable difference in quality. He is legitimately not st the same level as the other 5.
I like him a lot really. I think Puskas can play this role outstanding. I still can't decide which way to swing though. I like the Zidane-Puskas combo a lot but I do think Don Elias is slightly more likely to stifle that attack than the other two CBsHmm not the biggest fan of Gentile (as RB) myself, but Neeskens supporting that right side sounds good.
@Enigma_87 How about putting Neeskens as RB and Gentile as DM to do the dirty work in midfield? Makes your right side much stronger attacking wise and gives you a dedicated water carrier in midfield
That‘s what I would have done, but ideas like that make me crash out without warning so what do I know
@oneniltothearsenal What do you think of Puskas as a CF? I like it here
For me that's mostly because I don't think a player is necessarily the best judge of himself. Its too hard to be completely objective regarding yourself. So by that principle I am less interested in what players have to say about themselves than for instance what managers (their own, opposition and completely neutral) have to say on it.
Pele was great but the point is, he isn't just one all-time great defender he has to overcome.
Its three. Beckenbauer, Scirea and Forster. Its a defensive juggernaut.
There's Beckenbauer who would look to cut the supply to Pele and frustrate Pele. Forster, with the task to keep a track of Pele. And, last but not the least, Scirea to sweep things up and stop Pele if he unshackles himself from Beckenbauer and Forster.
Now compare that to Best who is up against Gerets, who was a solid player but not really someone who can stop Best at his peak. And Amancio on the other wing up against Evra, who is the weakest defender on the pitch here.
Here's Nobby Stiles, one of the best markers ever, on Amancio and how tough a job it was to mark Amancio.
Nobby Stiles recalls the taut episode in some detail in his autobiography:- "It was a special challenge for me because it was one of the few times, under Busby or with Alf Ramsey for England, when I was given specific marking instructions. My man was Amancio, a player who had a lot of speed and subtlety. He did the thing defenders least like – he ran at them, offered them the ball and then struck very quickly.
"Real scored the goal that put them level early and the crowd went mad. By half-time it looked as if another of our European missions was going to end in disappointment. They were winning 3-0 in the game, 3-1 on aggregate. I was particularly upset because Amancio had scored one goal, a toe-poke from close in, and left me with a tightening thigh which required heat treatment at the interval.
"I had chased him down the line on the right, forcing him on to his weaker left peg and the ball had run out for a goal kick. As Alex Stepney prepared to take the kick and we trotted into position, Amancio suddenly whacked me. He gave me a tremendous kick on the thigh and right away I feared I wouldn't last the game.
"Even after the heat treatment, my thigh was still tightening and I realised Amancio was going to get away from me, and if that happened we could forget about getting to the final." United got there, remarkably though goals from midfielder David Sadler and central defender Bill Foulkes but not before Stiles did what he believed he had to do. "I ran beside Amancio, shouted 'oi' and when he turned I gave him a good smack. He went down and the Spanish fans went crazy. Despite the din, I heard one of my team-mates shout, 'fecking hell, Nob.'
"In the case of Simon, I could have told Ramsey on oath that it was a mistake, a mistiming. But I couldn't do that after the Amancio incident." He did not have to. Before the game, Busby said to Stiles, "show them that you're there". If he saw the Amancio incident, he didn't mention it.
We have a major advantage in midfield, that should help us dominate the game. Didi is obviously great but in Neeskens, with his quickness, stamina and tactical nous, you have the ideal player than constantly harry Didi and ensure he doesn't get much time and space on the ball to stamp his authority on the game. That combined with the fact that our wingers are up against the weakest defenders on the pitch, should help us win the match imo.
The thing with the midfield for me is something about the Scirea-Beckenbauer together I just don't think reaches the sum of its parts. I'm just not feeling that combo really though I agree Seedorf underwhelms here as well.
To be honest I feel the same way about my wingers, I don't particularly rate Gentile esp in a modern context, and can see Stoichkov having some joy and Garrincha is who he is. If Seedorf is considered underwhelming in this context Amancio should be too.
I do have some Arsenal fan bias though I also dislike Cashley so maybe that balances out but I feel Cole was just a level better defensively though Evra was better offensively. Where I personally think Evra is being underestimated here is his passing and cross. If Neeskens scampers off to cover Didi leaving Evra open, Evra can feed Pele and Garrincha with long rangers that could be the difference maker.