Fantastic today, very Vidic like, love him
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Season Average Rating
- Appearances
- 40
- Clean sheets
- 8
- Goals
- 1
- Assists
- 1
- Yellow cards
- 3
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik @Rood and Imran @Annihilate Now! start with the good news by celebrating Manchester United Women's emphatic FA Cup win over Spurs at Wembley and the future of manager Marc Skinner.
Then it's the bad news and the ever worsening form of our Men with losses to Arsenal and Palace.
Finally the main debate - ETH Out now or keep him until the end of the season - if not longer. Are you Team Nik or Team Imran?
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Is on the upward climb. Really cultured defender and I love him. Needs another terminator next to him.
Kudos to him. Proving me very, very, very wrong. Long may it continue.
Very true. He got so much hate from people here. Clearly because he isn't English. Players like Jones and Smalling have survived years yet it was players like Lindelof who people wanted to deem not good enough. If he was English people would be raving about him. He is better than Stones in my opinion. He needs a proper CB next to him and an actual RB. He is adjusting to the PL and learning to be more aggressive. He is not Vidic level in the air but he is decent. What is the point of players like Jones being good in the air if he loses his man every time anyway. Lindelof is reliable. Once we see him partnered with a competent CB we will see him shine.
He has 61% success in aerial duels, which is good for a CB. Last season it was less than 50%. Looks like he has improved and also there is lot of aggression in his game, which is always good for a CB.
Not just you but plenty on here including me. He suddenly has that aggression and physicality to his game that he never showed last year. Our best defender this season. Smalling and Lindelof should be our starting pair from now on.
In the air? I think its because neither of them were taking extra responsibility to just go for the ball in the air and clear it out.
Jones was the one Kane made runs behind to get shots on the floor. And there was the one diving header Kane put straight at De Gea, where Jones was the one pressuring him.
Young was also a problem at right back with Alli pulling onto the back post to get headers.
Llorente had the freedom to take the ball down out of the air just outside the box and all the time in the world to try and find Kane with a pass in behind at the end. He also had 2 headers after he came on in the 80th minute.
In the main I think it was set pieces that were a problem for us in the air
The problem with that is that he has attempted the 8th least of a CB in the league. Bailly is 2nd least, Toby and Verthongen are 5th and 6th least
If you don't attempt to win a header its not going to be counted in your "duels". And the less you try the easier it will be to maintain an okayish success rate.
Clearly that’s BS. I have yet to see a criticism because of his nationality!
My beef with him is his lack of fundamental defending basics - most notably heading, positioning and concentration. Even yesterday he let Toby A free, which would have resulted in a goal if not for Superman in nets.
I’m happy his confidence is up but I like my cbs to be able to defend first and foremost.
We never learn. I was literally laughing at how pathetic Vida and Evra were in the beginning, especially Evra.
Not everyone slots in perfectly (sustainably) from the get go. Ibra is the only exception that springs to mind.
Not everyone slots in perfectly (sustainably) from the get go. Ibra is the only exception that springs to mind.
He’s been injured quite a lot. Are those numbers per 90 minutes?
I meant them to be but your right, those were per game. Forgot to change it over.
To rectify :
Per 90 mins
So it would be 5th least aerials attempted per 90 mins in the league. With Bailly 2nd, Toby 3rd
I was calling for his head earlier. Put him back into Mourinho's system again, and he will play like his "old" self. Ole's attacking style of play sits well with many of our players. Lindelof has finally showed his true potential.
Last season he was losing even that, this season he is winning them.
Anyways, what a player he is turning out to be, Our best CB.
He's improved in that regard massively over the last month. Obviously he'll never be amazing in the air, but if he continues at his current level it's no longer accurate to say his aerial game is rubbish.
Hear what you're saying but Pique, Mascherano and the whole of City's defence seem to do alright despite not having defensive desire to win a ball or basics. I think the art of defending is changing, as strikers in this country are changing also. The Alan Shearer target man type of striker seems to be dying out and being replaced with the Marcus Rashford type. Lindelof just needs someone with experience next to him and he'll grow into a great CB. Someone with experience, it's no surprise we're looking at Godin or Koulibaly as his partner.
I mean yeah, its an improvement. As have been our last few games where he has won more headers than previous to that. He has an uphill task improving his average because he attempted so few headers until the last few weeks. Even his 1 game where he won lots of headers, and he won the most headers out of him and Jones Vs. Spurs and he's still this far down the list because of how few he attempted until this point.
And don't just rate him on how he is playing right now. Include these 2 facts;
1. He is 24 years old! Thats the same age Vidic was when he came, and Vidic didn't perform world class right away. Koulibaly had a market value of €16m 3 years ago when he was 24yo. You can find many more examples. Very few centerbacks is finished product at that age.
2. He is playing next to players like Jones, Bailly, Young and Valencia. Most CB's play much better next to great players. Just look at Lovren playing next to Van Dijk vs Matip/Klavan.
He is much better now than he was 6-12 months ago, and with a run of games + new CB-partner I'm pretty sure we will see him just getting better.
1. He is 24 years old! Thats the same age Vidic was when he came, and Vidic didn't perform world class right away. Koulibaly had a market value of €16m 3 years ago when he was 24yo. You can find many more examples. Very few centerbacks is finished product at that age.
2. He is playing next to players like Jones, Bailly, Young and Valencia. Most CB's play much better next to great players. Just look at Lovren playing next to Van Dijk vs Matip/Klavan.
He is much better now than he was 6-12 months ago, and with a run of games + new CB-partner I'm pretty sure we will see him just getting better.
This was also my thoughts. Yes he has decent numbers won vs lost aerials, but he doesn’t go in many duels. He has clearly improved, but it is still his weakness. I personally think that he has improved because he is good at making headers higher up the pitch, when comes with force. He is much weaker at crosses in the penalty area.
I still think he was good yesterday, not amazing but the best CB on the pitch. He got fooled by Alli once, but the other big chance, Alderweireld, even Rashford said it was his responsibility. Getting fooled one or two times by Spurs forwards is still ok. My biggest issue is that Tottenham were allowed to hit cross after cross in the second half. That must be improved.
They were also constantly attacking in the the last third of the match. Of course they will get many shots. Think Eriksen got too much freedom in the second half, after being shit down totally by Herrera in the first.
Agree with the first half of this post - I mentioned the 3 chances with Alderweireld, Kane and Alli earlier in the thread, if any of those go in then this thread would be full of criticism. The whole of the back 4 (apart from Shaw) were really poor in the 2nd half, hence why De Gea was tested so often.
I hope you're not right about the last line, he is getting better but that is perhaps because we are comparing him to Lindelof of last season / the start of this.
Yeah theres a different standard of judgement for "newer" players like Lindelof as opposed to our older CBs Smalling and Jones. When opponents get 1 or 2 attempts on goal where they might have done better they get slaughtered, but its completely ignored by the majority in a Lindelof performance. It was similar in the first few years of Bailly being here too, it was ignored.
That said Lindelof has shown this season that he's better than Jones, especially in the big matches. Jones hasnt played many and when he has, he hasnt looked good. Lindelof has looked better
When Lindelof and Smalling got to play a number of games together, before Smalling hurt himself, I got the feeling that they gradually built up an understanding of each other's positions and movements and were very close to a "breakthrough" to something bigger and better.
After that, Lindelof has continued to develop, but his CB partners have had more difficulty convincing. I sincerely hope that Smalling will soon be back so they can continue to build on their interaction. I think the two could be good enough together so that we can compete for top positions and titles again.
With a few more years of training, experience and a little more muscle, I also think Lindelof has the potential to be world-class. But it's still a team sport and then he must also have world-class players around him, so that road is longer and depends not only on him.
After that, Lindelof has continued to develop, but his CB partners have had more difficulty convincing. I sincerely hope that Smalling will soon be back so they can continue to build on their interaction. I think the two could be good enough together so that we can compete for top positions and titles again.
With a few more years of training, experience and a little more muscle, I also think Lindelof has the potential to be world-class. But it's still a team sport and then he must also have world-class players around him, so that road is longer and depends not only on him.
You’re half right but you’re also half wrong
Pique is a great header of tie ball yet also capable of passing out. That being said, in Spain they play less in the air than in England.
In England, thank god this defence doesn’t have to face shearer - he’d destroy them.
Btw off the top of my head; deeney, glen Murray, benteke, rondon, Arnautovic, morata, mitrovic , Wilson, king, richarlison. I’m sure that there’s more, all lads good in the air. That’s before we look at defenders who are great at attacking corners - keane, vvd, dunk, Duffy, Doherty, Toby A, stones, komoany, Maguire etc.
I watched the Everton game yesterday and the amount of great crosses they put in, one of which led to Zouma heading the opener.
Yes some teams have changed more to possession footy but being able to head is still a big big part of the game. A CB needs to be able to head or at least have someone beside him who is great at it. At the moment only smalling excels at this
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Great? We conceded 11 shots on target. He got done at least 3 times.
If we buy Koulibaly and Milenkovic, we would have no issues in the air no matter what pairing, Smalling and Lindelöf included in these 4. The concern is not only our CBs, but our general defending against crosses (fullbacks and wingers + midfielders tracking runners) but also on corners and freekicks, we constantly ball watch, lose the man or fail to communicate. Work needs to be done there too, we seem to have regressed year by year in that department under Jose
I like him, and I like how comfortable he is in possession but his defending is a little bit inconsistent at times.
Spurs had at least 2 chances because he got beaten one on one or lost his man.
I think he is getting praised here because we won the game.
Spurs had at least 2 chances because he got beaten one on one or lost his man.
I think he is getting praised here because we won the game.
Pique and Mascherano weren't a partnership in the premier league. City have Kompany, he's very good in the air. There are still plenty of strikers who are physical in the league, dunno where you get that idea from.
As for players like Shearer not being around, if he were around now he'd still be a potent striker. He was never a big guy up top, but he certainly knew how to bully defenders.
What one on one are you speaking of?
He played well yesterday, and I disagree with those who say we didn't defend well... Spurs are a terrific team, been scoring plenty of goals. I think we wilted (believe it or not) second half, Ericsson dropped deep and provided more quality into Alli, Kane, Trippier etc. Any team would have found that second half difficult to deal with, and we are coming out of loooong period of lacking confidence, and playing pretty sh**e. Lots of pot shots, do not always equate to great chances.. I watched the 11 shots again (SKY are showing them..) and aside from maybe three (Alli one-on-one, Alli header, and the Toby flick from the corner), I would expect a decent Prem keep to make those saves. I agree, it was too many shots etc to concede, but we competed for every chance, every ball, and on many occasions, it was good defending that made chances so difficult.
I am not saying we defended perfectly. I am not saying that we could have been better. I am saying give us some credit. Give Lindeholf some credit, because we have come a long way in a v short while, and will improve.
The fact that Son is barely mentioned is testimony to how well we defended.
I think we missed some legs in midfield, and that tactically, second half, we were in the main, second best. But that is no disgrace against a very high quality side.
I am not saying we defended perfectly. I am not saying that we could have been better. I am saying give us some credit. Give Lindeholf some credit, because we have come a long way in a v short while, and will improve.
The fact that Son is barely mentioned is testimony to how well we defended.
I think we missed some legs in midfield, and that tactically, second half, we were in the main, second best. But that is no disgrace against a very high quality side.
I do not accept that he was at fault completely for the Toby effort. Toby made a good run and Lindelof followed him but because of Rashford he cannot get to him. It is a team game and Rashford was at the near post and should have seen it coming. The Alli one, yes, he got turned. If there are so many chances created from midfield, the defence is going to make mistakes.
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Exactly this, for those having a bit of a go at Victor. Rashford admitted just as much in one of his post-match interviews.
That tackle he made when he was racing back reminded me so much of Vidic. Think hes getting stronger which is helping him too.
1:27, turned by Alli. 1:39, done by Kane. Both resulted in clear chances. Had their finishing been as good as Rashford's, it would've been a different game.
I understand what you're saying. But for me, he's not a defender for a elite level club. Michael Keane is a better defender IMO, and we let him go. The only reason he's at the club is due to Mourinho. I very much doubt we'd have signed him if we had someone other than Mourinho in charge. We didn't need to sign him when we had Tuanzebe at the club. But Mourinho wasn't gonna give a chance to him. Lindelof is good on the ball, but I suspect we'll always discuss his vulnerabilities as a defender.
If Spurs had finished their chances yesterday, then the tone in here would be very different. Our defence got pulled apart and Jones seems to be getting the brunt of the criticism and that to me is unfair, when Lindelof was also nearly as bad.
We need two CBs that will come straight into the team (Koulibaly, De Ligt) to really have a significant impact on our defence. What I don't agree with is, that we should pair Lindelof with a dominant CB who will paper over the Swedes weaknesses.
Even though I’ve been a big critic of his aerial weakness I’ve still praised him for his improvement this season. Having said that, I do realize he seems to back off duels now and I absolutely think it’s because he doesn’t fancy himself winning some headers and would rather cover his own arse for the turn because he damn sure knows Jones and young are going to make an absolute mess of the second ball. He is a very intelligent player. Long May his improvement continue
Is it called bad defending if a striker does something great to outmanouver the defender? We're talking about world class strikers (kane etc.) Sure, they got better of him a couple of times, but which defender doesn't? I would not call it bad defending just because you get outplayed by a class striker. It wasn't like he lost his man or whiffed a kick or something (except maybe the Toby chance).
Of course it is a nice weapon to move up CB at corners and other setpieces. We have seen Smalling score a few times and Lindelof had a header the other match which led to Matic goal. But I don’t think this should be overestimated.
If you look at the results there are not many header goals from CBs. I could be wrong, but I dont think anybody of the ones you mention have had more than one this season and some of them zero.
One mans muck is another mans gold
You should be aware of that you are pretty alone with that opinion. Lindelof got ratings between 6-8 in all papers yesterday and the average rating here was also very high.
We conceded 11 chances as a team... the rest of the defence were definitely a factor but so were the midfield - didn't do anywhere near enough to stop passes between the lines or players running at the defence or crosses. I get Ole telling the front three to stay up (as an out ball) but that doesn't excuse the midfield allowing Spurs to come from the halfway line to our box at will.
They all (Lindelof included) need to work harder and be more joined up.
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