What next for Mourinho?

[GM K]

Different paths, same result in terms of losing the dressing room and from there on there's only one possible outcome.

Imo you fail to present any sort of logic, you claim that we need to make the manager more important than any super star player, or that we hire a director of football to tuck in between the board and the team/manager. The manager is already more important, always has been, nothing has changed. How is the latter going to change anything in terms of power struggles anyway ? You present a solution to a make-belief situation (player power > manager power) and your solution won't change anything. In isolated situations, manager vs super star player, the manager will always win. If the case is bigger, like in Mourinho's situation where the manager has lost the players in the dressing room, the manager will always lose. Director of football or no director of football, doesn't matter, you'll never find anyone willing to sack off the majority of the squad because the manager has managed to fall out with the team.

There's no fundamental flaws in our current structure, there's nothing that makes it more or less likely that a manager will fail compared to a club that uses a DoF. Real Madrid had a DoF, Mourinho fell out with him and had him booted out, then he fell out with the rest of the Real Madrid squad, even Cristiano Ronaldo loathes him. The reasons for me wanting a director of football is because i think it's a better way going forward, but it has absolutely feck all to do with power struggles, if anything you just add an extra potential issue.

So basically we are fine the way we are and just need to hire Ole or Poch or Zidane then?

Okay, let's see how that will go in another three seasons. Believe me, if it goes well, I will be more than happy.

Curious though, why are we then looking for a DoF if we don't need one?

 

[FootballHQ]

IIRC he did ask for Hugo Almeida, but more as a provocation. He didn't actually want him, he wanted a big guy up top, something different from Benzema and Higuain(and he wasn't particularly satisfied with those two. Too inconsistent)

It was the season Adebayor turned up on loan.

TBF Almeida's scoring record actually surprised me, didn't realise he was that prolific at Werder Bremen. Another largely forgettable Portugal centre forward in the major tournaments.

 

[GM K]

Mourinho was given the same amount of control that Fergie had, more or less full control over everything at the club. He told the club which players he want to sign and the players he didnt need, the club (Woodward) then did his best to accommodate the manager.

Clear there was a divide because we didn't sign Perisic ? We signed the vast majority of players he wanted that summer, Lindeloef, Lukaku and Matic. Yet it's supposed to be a massive divide because we failed to get one player due to Inter asking for an insane fee and Martial on loan ? There was nothing indicating a divide that summer, the club was happy to do what it could to get the players Mourinho wanted, but there's a limit to what is acceptable. The summer of 2018 is another story.

You keep saying Jose had the control Fergie had but the reality does not support that. Would Woodward have turned Fergie down if Fergie wanted Perisic or Willian or a center back or if he wanted Pogba or Martial sold? Forget about the merits or otherwise of the decisions for a sec and Forget about any faults of Jose for now. Focus on Fergie's authority. Would Woodward have so blatantly turned him down? The answer is no for anyone who really understood Fergie's extent of control back then. Yes, Fergie earned it, no doubt about that but the point remains: in that structure, Fergie was god! If other managers have not earned that kind of trust or control, must we then stick to it especially if we are not ready to give them six years to get their bearings right?

 

[Sauldogba]

Pep made each of his teams stronger.

He definitely made Bayern weaker.
I don't care what anyone says that Bayern team had another Champions League in it.
imo If they had kept Heynckes they would have probably been the first team ever to win back to back Champions League trophies
That's how good they were before he took over.

 

[Sauldogba]

Amazing post bro. What is happening at United must be quite embarrassing for Mourinho. For a much younger less experienced coach to take over and accomplish what he failed to do in 2 years with the same exact players is not a good look. His last option is to resort to hinting at some non-existent behind the scene issues as mitigation. Pogba was brilliant for 3 yrs in juventus as well as the World Cup and is now thriving with OGS yet we are supposed to believe he didn’t want to play or had disciplinary issues that prevented he and the team from functioning.
For that to be true, we would have to believe Rashford, Matic, Herrera(who was criminally underused) had disciplinary issues holding them back as well.

Lets wait and see if Ole wins a trophy first before we go down that road.
Not to say im not impressed with him but he hasn't done anything yet.

 

[Kapardin]

Bayern were shit?!?!?!?!?! They why did they look better than us

He has a point. Klopp won those titles when LvG was at Bayern I believe. Of course, not taking anything away from his incredible work at Dortmund and the title wins, but it helps when extraneous factors favor him.

But rich of Jose to talk about it though as his last league title came when the league itself was shit (biggest tactical rivals being LvG, Bodgers and Pellegrini) and his 2nd place with us came when Chelsea and Arsenal were both shit and Liverpool were concentrating on their CL campaign.

Happens to every manager as some luck is always involved in success, but sometimes the luck factor overrides the actual work put in.

 

[Sauldogba]

It is truly unbelievable, and must be hilarious to watch for our opposition fans!

Absolutely right. It must be quite unprecedented in football that fecking second place is being celebrated as some kind of special achievement. It makes a fecking mockery of everything this club stands proud for.


It's not an achievement, it's celebrating failure, for finishing behind our biggest local rival. It makes me sick in the mouth just thinking about it being celebrated as an achievement.

FFS

I don't see whats so funny.
I think he seriously underachieved with our squad and his style of football in his last year was dreadful but joses stint at united>>>>>klopp and Pochs.
Like it or not he did finish second only because the team ahead of us were playing football manager with oil and he also did win us two trophies.
And he had a very respectable record against the top 6 clubs.

 

[Idxomer]

He has a point. Klopp won those titles when LvG was at Bayern I believe.

Heynckes was the manager when Dortmund won the double in 2012.

 

[SirAF]

I like him again.

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[Shark]

I like him again.

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Didn't Klopp knock Jose out of the CL during this period?

 

[FootballHQ]

Bayern won the treble the season before Klopp's first league.

 

[Xaviesta]

Bayern won the treble the season before Klopp's first league.

Bayern won the treble in 2013, 12 months after Klopp's 2nd league title.

 

[FootballHQ]

Bayern won the treble in 2013, 12 months after Klopp's 2nd league title.

Ah my mistake. Got confused by 2010 as both Bayern and Inter went into that match needing to win to win treble.

 

[UncleBob]

You are missing the point. It's not about failing to sign a player, it's how. If Mourinho and Woodward agreed that perisic was too expensive, there would have been no issue. If the club simply didn't have the funds, there would have been no issue. But that wasn't the case. Mourinho wanted him, even at inter's asking price, the funds were there, and he Woodward overruled him.

There's a difference between failing to agree a price and overruling someone. Woodward has to more to factor in than just getting Perisic, you're trying to boil it down to the manager being overruled and let down in a summer where we spent £150mill getting the midfielder he wanted, the striker he wanted and the defender he wanted. Mourinho was more than happy to praise the efforts that were put in to get 3 of the 4 players that were identified. Summer of 2018 is a different story, i'd say you've picked the wrong transfer window in terms of arguing about getting overruled..

You keep using guardiola and klopp as examples but they don't work since they're not in charge in the same way. They they were never given the kind of power and control United gives to managers.

Ofcourse the examples work, are you arguing that Guardiola didn't want Sanchez and then Mahrez ? Guardiola wanted a player, the sporting director wanted the player, club failed to land Sanchezr because they thought the fees involved were insane and they couldn't agree a price with Leicester for Mahrez until the sommer window. The manager and sporting director were overruled, according to your logic, doesn't matter that there's a difference in structure in place.

 

[UncleBob]

You keep saying Jose had the control Fergie had but the reality does not support that. Would Woodward have turned Fergie down if Fergie wanted Perisic or Willian or a center back or if he wanted Pogba or Martial sold? Forget about the merits or otherwise of the decisions for a sec and Forget about any faults of Jose for now. Focus on Fergie's authority. Would Woodward have so blatantly turned him down? The answer is no for anyone who really understood Fergie's extent of control back then. Yes, Fergie earned it, no doubt about that but the point remains: in that structure, Fergie was god! If other managers have not earned that kind of trust or control, must we then stick to it especially if we are not ready to give them six years to get their bearings right?

Woodward didn't turn Mourinho down, he failed to agree a fee that was acceptable for Perisic. Chelsea didn't want to sell Williand and Willian didn't want to leave Chelsea, it was always clear that Willian staying/leaving depended on Conte's future, we had no chance. Doesn't matter if it was Mourinho, Fergie or whoever, any manager that manages to lose the dressing room ends up getting sacked, no one is going to listen to someone in that position and sell quality players that will be extremely difficult to replace in todays transfer market.

 

[GhastlyHun]

He definitely made Bayern weaker.
I don't care what anyone says that Bayern team had another Champions League in it.
imo If they had kept Heynckes they would have probably been the first team ever to win back to back Champions League trophies
That's how good they were before he took over.

We'll never know about that. But I don't believe the team would have kept the same intensity as of the 12-13 season. That one was fueled by the runner up triple in 2012, and by the height of the Bayern-Dortmund rivalry.
And we were not weaker under Pep except for the first season. In the other two nobody could have complained about us winning the CL.

 

[GM K]

Woodward didn't turn Mourinho down, he failed to agree a fee that was acceptable for Perisic. Chelsea didn't want to sell Williand and Willian didn't want to leave Chelsea, it was always clear that Willian staying/leaving depended on Conte's future, we had no chance. Doesn't matter if it was Mourinho, Fergie or whoever, any manager that manages to lose the dressing room ends up getting sacked, no one is going to listen to someone in that position and sell quality players that will be extremely difficult to replace in todays transfer market.

Let's agree to disagree my friend.

 

[UncleBob]

So basically we are fine the way we are and just need to hire Ole or Poch or Zidane then?

Okay, let's see how that will go in another three seasons. Believe me, if it goes well, I will be more than happy.

Curious though, why are we then looking for a DoF if we don't need one?

It's two seperate arguments.

The structure at the club itself isn't why Mourinho failed, or Moyes and Van Gaal for that matter. A different structure wouldn't have prevented Mourinho falling out with everyone from star players to the cleaning staff. Every report indicate that he was against a change of structure at United.

Then there's the general debate, where i do agree that we should opt for a director of football. It will make it easier to plan for continuity by having a plan for how the club wants to play football, with a sporting director finding the correct type of players and where we hire a manager that fits into an overall plan, instead of hiring managers that have different views on how the club should play football. There's no invisible red string between Moyes, Van Gaal and Mourinho, they all represent very different approaches to football, which resulted in us spending an absolute fortune on players under Van Gaal that the next manager, Mourinho, didn't fancy at all. If we had a sporting director in place we might not have approached Van Gaal or Mourinho to begin with.

However, once we've hired the manager the structure, no matter what it is, won't prevent power struggles or the manager falling out with everyone.

 

[fellaini's barber]

What happened with your last 3 managers...

In general, the more work you have to do, and the least amount of help you have to do it, the more likely you are to fail. The United manager position is the most difficult in the sport. That's down to the lack of structure. Too much distance between the training pitch and the club's decision-makers, too much work put onto the manager's job. What makes it untenable then is the fact the club's higher ups don't actually give full control to the manager

Mate you are completely making all that up, same as your point about about our current structure leading to 'internal collapses'. What happened with our last 3 managers is that one was inept and the other two were past it. There is no deep special explanation needed to explain why the managers we hired failed, don't know why people keep coming up with all this shit. What would our 'structure' have done about Jose falling out with everyone from Pogba to Valencia? Would our board have made all LVG's failed signings successful or made us sideway pass our way to a league title? What structure do you think Moyes woukd be successful in?

 

[SCP]

If I was him would start to change the script. Enough said.

 

[SwansonsTache]

If he had the ability to reflect introspectively he would hang his fecking head in shame.

 

[SCP]

If he had the ability to reflect introspectively he would hang his fecking head in shame.

He isn't showing any sort of that. In fact his friends on the media, at least here in Portugal still keep the same spinning. "The players made his bed". Same shit of arguments used when he left Madrid or Chelsea.

 

[K2K]

I don't disagree that we made an offer. Even Di Mario reported that.

But we never made an offer that was close to Inters demands. Our only offer was before Spaletti came in. We never made another formal offer thereafter.

That is what I was alluding to.

 

[JPRouve]

I don't disagree that we made an offer. Even Di Mario reported that.

But we never made an offer that was close to Inters demands. Our only offer was before Spaletti came in. We never made another formal offer thereafter.

That is what I was alluding to.

Why would we make a new offer for a player that wasn't interested?

 

[Kapardin]

He isn't showing any sort of that. In fact his friends on the media, at least here in Portugal still keep the same spinning. "The players made his bed". Same shit of arguments used when he left Madrid or Chelsea.

That is to be expected. He would try to protect his own reputation. Fair enough, but he certainly looks foolish now, especially his comments about Rashford's "natural ability" being lower than Sterling, or when he said forwards cannot be coached at finishing -- look how Rashford controls the ball, creates chances and also finishes now after a few weeks under Ole.

 

[K2K]

I like him again.

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I don't even like Klopp but you could argue that Mourinho's greatest achievement with Porto came in a season when most of Europes top clubs were poor.. Remember that years UCL was Porto vs Monaco. Hardly a blockbuster.

 

[No Idea For Nickname]

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[SCP]

That is to be expected. He would try to protect his own reputation. Fair enough, but he certainly looks foolish now, especially his comments about Rashford's "natural ability" being lower than Sterling, or when he said forwards cannot be coached at finishing -- look how Rashford controls the ball, creates chances and also finishes now after a few weeks under Ole.

I was naively expecting his reaction to be different looking at the reaction the team had since he left. At least reading and listening to what his friends here in the media its the same. Problem for him, because he probably thinks the problem has nothing to do with him. At least if any significant club will sign him we will know it will be based on agents moves.

 

[K2K]

Why would we make a new offer for a player that wasn't interested?

We maybe might not have been interested ourselves.. Especially when Inter were making it known that they wanted Martial in exchange.

No conclusive way to know.

 

[JPRouve]

We maybe might not have been interested ourselves.. Especially when Inter were making it known that they wanted Martial in exchange.

No conclusive way to know.

I don't really understand your point. The club tried to sign him, he had an offer on the table and rejected it. There is nothing else to discuss about, it's fairly straightforward.

 

[No Idea For Nickname]

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[No Idea For Nickname]

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[minoo-utd]

Jose complaining that he didn't get the support needed like Klopp and Pep.

 

[No Idea For Nickname]

Jose complaining that he didn't get the support needed like Klopp and Pep.

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[sunama]

In those clips, Jose is looking refreshed and is actually looking good.
I remember when he attended some of our press conferences - he looked like he'd been dragged by a tractor and thrown into the press conference.
I still don't understand the concept of living in a hotel for 2.5 years.

I wanted him to do well here. I wanted him to stay here till he retired, winning us multiple trophies, but sadly this was not to be.
Our search for someone to take us back to the top, continues.

 

[K2K]

I don't really understand your point. The club tried to sign him, he had an offer on the table and rejected it. There is nothing else to discuss about, it's fairly straightforward.

It's simple.

We made an offer in the Summer. Inter rejected it. Considering what Inter were demanding it seems our interest ended there . Around that time Perisic never denied interest..

Then a few months later the player said he wasn't interested in joining.

It's inconclusive who ended interest first. That's the point I was making.

And we have completely gone off tangent.

 

[K2K]

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He probably had the biggest ego in that dressing room. There was the problem.

 

[No Idea For Nickname]

In those clips, Jose is looking refreshed and is actually looking good.
I remember when he attended some of our press conferences - he looked like he'd been dragged by a tractor and thrown into the press conference.
I still don't understand the concept of living in a hotel for 2.5 years.

I wanted him to do well here. I wanted him to stay here till he retired, winning us multiple trophies, but sadly this was not to be.
Our search for someone to take us back to the top, continues.

leaving hotel after being sacked, picture:
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/footbal...cked-manchester-united-manager-departs-clubs/

 

[No Idea For Nickname]

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so he knew it before season started

 

[No Idea For Nickname]

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