What truly worries me about Manchester United

[devilish]

United since Fergie and Gill retired have been amateur hour. Let's take a look down memory lane:

• We completed a £27.5m move for Fellaini when his release clause if activated by July 31 would have been £23.5m (https://www.bbc.com/sport/football/23710170)
• We tried buy Herrera and were laughed at by Bilbao and Spanish FA (https://www.theguardian.com/football/2013/sep/03/ander-herrera-manchester-united)
• We purchased Mata for a £37.1m fee when he's clearly not a United type player - he is a great guy, he's not a great United player and this was obvious from day 1
• We waste time pursuing Kroos, Cesc, Bale etc.
• We fire Moyes
• We signed Angel di Maria for £59.7m only to get rid a year later. Someone should have done the homework on his personality, mentality, motivations etc prior to spending a British world record fee on a player. Failing that, someone should have ensured he settled in better in the new environment.
• We paid £27m for Luke Shaw, at the time one of the most expensive teenagers ever, basically for the price of Mane' and Tadic (which is what Southampton did). His career at United even prior to the knee injury was meh, and after recovery has also been meh. For comparison, Liverpool paid £10m for Robertson and he's a better player than Shaw is.
• Then we went back to Spain and paid the clause for Herrera a year later. Thankfully we learned this time.
• We bought Marcus Rojo, Daley Blind and Falcao. Complete scattergun approach.
• The following season we bought Schneiderlin and Schweinsteiger - that worked out well!
• We bought Depay, Darmian and brought Romero on a free (clearly the best transfer). But then we gave a contract to Victor Valdes, because why the feck not?
• We sold Chicharito for a pittance and he immediately went on an amazing scoring spree in Leverkusen. So much so that Leverkusen sold him 2 years after they bought him, for a profit. Well done Man Utd.
• Same thing for Jonny Evans, sold him to WBA for a pittance and they sold him to Leicester 3 years later for double the price. Well done Man Utd.
• To close the circle, we were quoted 70 million for Maguire, but thankfully we didn't bite.
• We bought Martial for a crazy fee (equivalent to KDB or 1.5x Mane or 1.5x Salah) and thankfully he's a great player but we certainly overpaid on transfer deadline.
• We fire LVG
• Enter Mourinho, we bring in the player of the year in Germany (£30m Mkhitaryan), player of the year in France (Zlatan on a free) and pay a world record fee for Pogba.
• A year in, Mourinho loses trust in Mkhitaryan and sends him to Arsenal in exchange for Sanchez. We give Sanchez a ridiculous salary that basically ruins our wage structure and threatens to ruin any future salary negotiations with existing players (see: De Gea now, Pogba possible next year). Sanchez needless to say has been a complete disaster on the pitch. We laughed at City for saying they couldn't afford Sanchez, but they were right, it's not just the transfer fee and the agent fee, it's the wages and the detrimental effect on the wage structure that is key. And he's been shite on the pitch.
• We also pay £30m for Eric Bailly who lacks a brain and consequently plays only when all the others are injured.
• We buy Lukaku, Matic and Lindeloff. For the outlay, none looks a bargain, and quite fits the United philosophy (except maybe Victor). Yes, I like Rom, and I think he's got the temperament and intelligence to be a United #9, but does he have the first touch, scoring record in big matches and participation in buildup play required of our leading striker? Not so sure. Matic is just a short term buy that appeased Mourinho. We finish a distant second to City and get bounced in Europe by Sevilla who have more 'eritage apparently.
• Then we buy Fred (of the famous, "Why did we buy Fred" thread)
• We buy Dalot and Grant.
• We fire Mourinho

So this is the record under Ed Woodward's stewardship. Spent a billion dollars and the squad is miles from the best in England, let alone the best in Europe.

Sporting director should be of equal stature and independent of the manager, have a long-term view in mind, keep the philosophy of the club in mind when recruiting players and not bring the manager's favorite flavors of the month to the club (Fellaini, Depay, Matic come to mind) and most importantly be in touch/contact with scouts and agents throughout the year to execute a competent transfer process and campaign. Michael Edwards and Txiki Begiristian take a lot of the burden from Klopp and Guardiola respectively with regards to team building. Big clubs like Juventus, Real Madrid, Barcelona, Bayern Munich have already made moves in the market and have a clear idea of what they want the squad to look like. We still don't know if we're going for Ole or Poch, and if we go for Poch when can we get him and how much will he cost us. So until that's settled we can't even plan the transfer campaign.

If there's one thing Ed is good at it's marketing and generating headlines. Every season we were in for Cristiano Ronaldo - the prodigal son - to bring him back, and it looked like every summer we got played for a better contract at Real Madrid. When Ronaldo actually wanted to move, he called his agent to get in touch with Juve and they agreed the terms in a couple of weeks. In March 2018. Then Juve agreed a fee with Real in June and that's that. End of story.

This

 

[ForestRGoinUp]

What worries me is the reliance on the so called 'potential' of so many of our players. All I keep hearing is that so and so has the potential to be xxxxx (insert superlative here)!

We have been blinded by the success of the class of '92 which was a once in a lifetime group of players that actually fulfilled their potential.

Our reliance on current players to (hopefully) fulfill their potential is currently the most pressing of my Utd concerns.

Rashford apparently has the potential to be world class (although personally I doubt it).

Martial apparently has the potential too.

Lindalof has the potential to be a Man Utd centre half for years to come apparently.

Shaw has the potential to be a great LB.

Fred incredibly in some fans eyes still has the potential.

McTominay apparently has the potential.

Pereira apparently has the potential.

Chong apparently has the potential.

Greenwood apparently has the potential.

Dalot apparently has the potential.

Heck even Lingard apparently still has the potential to be a Utd great.

It's fine having a few promising youngsters in there but our reliance on so many actually coming through is a concern.

Given the fact we are such a rich club we should just be buying the best proven talent out there and not relying on..........yes you guessed it, potential!

It’s so true. And so many think that the class of 92 is something in our DNA. We wouldn’t be nearly 3 decades on from anything even remotely similar if it was.

As good as Barcelona’s academy is and as recent as it produced something along the lines of our CO92, you didn’t see them hold out hope that it would keep producing. They kept bringing in top foreign talent.

We’re now even starting to award top tier contracts to players who’ve shown nothing more than potential. The Martial’s Lingards Shaw’s etc. on 100-150 per week. God knows what Rashford is bending the club over for just because he can at this point.

 

[Lentwood]

What worries me is the reliance on the so called 'potential' of so many of our players. All I keep hearing is that so and so has the potential to be xxxxx (insert superlative here)!

We have been blinded by the success of the class of '92 which was a once in a lifetime group of players that actually fulfilled their potential.

Our reliance on current players to (hopefully) fulfill their potential is currently the most pressing of my Utd concerns.

Rashford apparently has the potential to be world class (although personally I doubt it).

Martial apparently has the potential too.

Lindalof has the potential to be a Man Utd centre half for years to come apparently.

Shaw has the potential to be a great LB.

Fred incredibly in some fans eyes still has the potential.

McTominay apparently has the potential.

Pereira apparently has the potential.

Chong apparently has the potential.

Greenwood apparently has the potential.

Dalot apparently has the potential.

Heck even Lingard apparently still has the potential to be a Utd great.

It's fine having a few promising youngsters in there but our reliance on so many actually coming through is a concern.

Given the fact we are such a rich club we should just be buying the best proven talent out there and not relying on..........yes you guessed it, potential!

Correct - as I have said elsewhere, the majority of posters have been suckered into believing that all of the above have the potential to be world class because of the Class of 92 + Ronaldo & Rooney - however, they forget (or are not aware) that all of those players came into the side and made a huge impact from day one!

The likes of Giggs, Rooney and Ronaldo in particular came into the side as teenagers and where consistently in our best 2/3 players most games. The likes of Martial, Rashford and Shaw have one good game in four/five and most of the others listed above are mediocre at best the majority of the time. I am sure someone will come up with some nonsense stats to attempt to prove me wrong but I watched those players grow up and I'll say with total certainty in my mind that they were all streets ahead of the current crop in terms of ability.

Some posters seem to think a player will improve just by getting older which I also find really bizarre...again they are confused by what happened with the likes of Rooney and Ronaldo.

Ronaldo, for example, had all of the raw ability in the world, he could beat people for fun, his delivery was good, his shooting was a little wild but technique of striking the ball was good and he was physically phenomenal. What he lacked was the ruthlessness and awareness to put his amazing natural ability to best effect.

Rooney was a 'street' footballer when he arrived at Utd. A real dynamo of a player who combined power, speed and first-class technique. However, he had a bad temper and was easily wound-up and could get very frustrated in games, which sometimes effected his performance.

My point is, Ronaldo and Rooney had outstanding, almost unique abilities even at 18/19. Where they both needed to improve was 'mentally' if you like. This comes with age and maturity

Rashford (sorry to pick on him but needs to be done for comparison) does not have outstanding raw technical ability. His first touch is often very poor, when he runs with the ball he often looks ungainly and regularly over-runs the ball or takes a false touch and his heading ability is non-existent (in fact, he has bottled several good goalscoring opps. with his head). I don't see how, after 15yrs in the Manchester Utd set-up, any of these attributes are going to significantly improve just by getting older.

When Ronaldo was 'bad' it was because he would beat 3/4 players and then fail to deliver a cross because he wanted to do ten more stepovers. Very, very rarely did you see him take more than the odd poor touch or make the odd bad pass

When Rooney was 'bad' it was because he would boot someone up in the air and get sent off or be more concerned with chasing someone back into the fullback position out of frustration. Very, very rarely did you see him take more than the odd poor touch or make the odd bad pass

When Rashford is bad, he absolutely stinks the place out (see last 4/5 games). At times, on a bad day, if you saw Rashford and took off his red shirt (and your own red-tinted glasses), you would think he was a Championship player at best. I understand he also shows flashes of great skill - but Rooney and Ronaldo would be producing this every week and keeping their base level high

When Martial is bad, you don't even notice he is on the pitch. Rooney and Ronaldo where always involved. Even in their very worst games they were constantly at the centre of things and kept going, kept trying, kept having the confidence to make something happen and as supporters, you felt like they would!

When Shaw is bad, he looks like a hungover Sunday league fullback who had an double sausage mcmuffin on the way down!

I'm sorry if all of that sounds harsh...Rashford, Martial and Shaw are not bad players....I just have my doubts about whether they can be 'top' players in the way that Giggs, Beckham, Scholes, Rooney and Ronaldo where

 

[ErranMorad]

United since Fergie and Gill retired have been amateur hour. Let's take a look down memory lane:

• We completed a £27.5m move for Fellaini when his release clause if activated by July 31 would have been £23.5m (https://www.bbc.com/sport/football/23710170)
• We tried buy Herrera and were laughed at by Bilbao and Spanish FA (https://www.theguardian.com/football/2013/sep/03/ander-herrera-manchester-united)
• We purchased Mata for a £37.1m fee when he's clearly not a United type player - he is a great guy, he's not a great United player and this was obvious from day 1
• We waste time pursuing Kroos, Cesc, Bale etc.
• We fire Moyes
• We signed Angel di Maria for £59.7m only to get rid a year later. Someone should have done the homework on his personality, mentality, motivations etc prior to spending a British world record fee on a player. Failing that, someone should have ensured he settled in better in the new environment.
• We paid £27m for Luke Shaw, at the time one of the most expensive teenagers ever, basically for the price of Mane' and Tadic (which is what Southampton did). His career at United even prior to the knee injury was meh, and after recovery has also been meh. For comparison, Liverpool paid £10m for Robertson and he's a better player than Shaw is.
• Then we went back to Spain and paid the clause for Herrera a year later. Thankfully we learned this time.
• We bought Marcus Rojo, Daley Blind and Falcao. Complete scattergun approach.
• The following season we bought Schneiderlin and Schweinsteiger - that worked out well!
• We bought Depay, Darmian and brought Romero on a free (clearly the best transfer). But then we gave a contract to Victor Valdes, because why the feck not?
• We sold Chicharito for a pittance and he immediately went on an amazing scoring spree in Leverkusen. So much so that Leverkusen sold him 2 years after they bought him, for a profit. Well done Man Utd.
• Same thing for Jonny Evans, sold him to WBA for a pittance and they sold him to Leicester 3 years later for double the price. Well done Man Utd.
• To close the circle, we were quoted 70 million for Maguire, but thankfully we didn't bite.
• We bought Martial for a crazy fee (equivalent to KDB or 1.5x Mane or 1.5x Salah) and thankfully he's a great player but we certainly overpaid on transfer deadline.
• We fire LVG
• Enter Mourinho, we bring in the player of the year in Germany (£30m Mkhitaryan), player of the year in France (Zlatan on a free) and pay a world record fee for Pogba.
• A year in, Mourinho loses trust in Mkhitaryan and sends him to Arsenal in exchange for Sanchez. We give Sanchez a ridiculous salary that basically ruins our wage structure and threatens to ruin any future salary negotiations with existing players (see: De Gea now, Pogba possible next year). Sanchez needless to say has been a complete disaster on the pitch. We laughed at City for saying they couldn't afford Sanchez, but they were right, it's not just the transfer fee and the agent fee, it's the wages and the detrimental effect on the wage structure that is key. And he's been shite on the pitch.
• We also pay £30m for Eric Bailly who lacks a brain and consequently plays only when all the others are injured.
• We buy Lukaku, Matic and Lindeloff. For the outlay, none looks a bargain, and quite fits the United philosophy (except maybe Victor). Yes, I like Rom, and I think he's got the temperament and intelligence to be a United #9, but does he have the first touch, scoring record in big matches and participation in buildup play required of our leading striker? Not so sure. Matic is just a short term buy that appeased Mourinho. We finish a distant second to City and get bounced in Europe by Sevilla who have more 'eritage apparently.
• Then we buy Fred (of the famous, "Why did we buy Fred" thread)
• We buy Dalot and Grant.
• We fire Mourinho

So this is the record under Ed Woodward's stewardship. Spent a billion dollars and the squad is miles from the best in England, let alone the best in Europe.

Sporting director should be of equal stature and independent of the manager, have a long-term view in mind, keep the philosophy of the club in mind when recruiting players and not bring the manager's favorite flavors of the month to the club (Fellaini, Depay, Matic come to mind) and most importantly be in touch/contact with scouts and agents throughout the year to execute a competent transfer process and campaign. Michael Edwards and Txiki Begiristian take a lot of the burden from Klopp and Guardiola respectively with regards to team building. Big clubs like Juventus, Real Madrid, Barcelona, Bayern Munich have already made moves in the market and have a clear idea of what they want the squad to look like. We still don't know if we're going for Ole or Poch, and if we go for Poch when can we get him and how much will he cost us. So until that's settled we can't even plan the transfer campaign.

If there's one thing Ed is good at it's marketing and generating headlines. Every season we were in for Cristiano Ronaldo - the prodigal son - to bring him back, and it looked like every summer we got played for a better contract at Real Madrid. When Ronaldo actually wanted to move, he called his agent to get in touch with Juve and they agreed the terms in a couple of weeks. In March 2018. Then Juve agreed a fee with Real in June and that's that. End of story.

Excellent work. A good summary & timeline of our utter incompetence since Sir Alex's retirement. We have a gross spend of ~£680m and a net spend of ~£480m in this period; one of the highest in world football. Our wage bill has consistently been in the top 3. For all this money spent on transfer fees & wages, what we have to show for are 7th, 4th, 5th, 6th & 2nd position in the league. The odds are that we are going to finish outside the top 4 this season too. Which wil make it four times out six where we finish outside the top 4. That is not even Arsenal level, it's how Spurs used to perform a few years back.

In the champions league we have never made it beyond the quarters in our 3 appearances before the current one. One quarter, one group stage exit and r16 to fecking Sevilla last season. We have won a couple of mickey mouse cups thanks to some easier routes. Yippee!

The sad part is that the squad still looks like in need of a major surgery. The defense, the midfield and the attack can all use top additions; the defense & the attack more than one. Eddie the idiot promised potential managers an adult version of Disneyland, and the fans & the world "........things in the transfer market that other clubs can only dream of. Watch this space." So far what he has delivered is nothing but shambles.

So, it's not outrageous that some fan worry about the future direction of the club. Eddie has stumbled onto a good thing in Ole. Now he needs to back him with big money and big signings, kind of like how City backed Pep. If Eddie continues with his maverick ways, like he has so far, we are in some more tough times. This is a very important window, and we need to be making quick moves and get players in as early as possible. It's not going to be easy with Bayern and Real both looking to have big windows. They both have already made their moves. We cannot be caught napping with our dicks in our hands, again.

Will Eddie be able to deliver? Well....watch this space!

 

[Isotope]

Correct - as I have said elsewhere, the majority of posters have been suckered into believing that all of the above have the potential to be world class because of the Class of 92 + Ronaldo & Rooney - however, they forget (or are not aware) that all of those players came into the side and made a huge impact from day one!

The likes of Giggs, Rooney and Ronaldo in particular came into the side as teenagers and where consistently in our best 2/3 players most games. The likes of Martial, Rashford and Shaw have one good game in four/five and most of the others listed above are mediocre at best the majority of the time. I am sure someone will come up with some nonsense stats to attempt to prove me wrong but I watched those players grow up and I'll say with total certainty in my mind that they were all streets ahead of the current crop in terms of ability.

Some posters seem to think a player will improve just by getting older which I also find really bizarre...again they are confused by what happened with the likes of Rooney and Ronaldo.

Ronaldo, for example, had all of the raw ability in the world, he could beat people for fun, his delivery was good, his shooting was a little wild but technique of striking the ball was good and he was physically phenomenal. What he lacked was the ruthlessness and awareness to put his amazing natural ability to best effect.

Rooney was a 'street' footballer when he arrived at Utd. A real dynamo of a player who combined power, speed and first-class technique. However, he had a bad temper and was easily wound-up and could get very frustrated in games, which sometimes effected his performance.

My point is, Ronaldo and Rooney had outstanding, almost unique abilities even at 18/19. Where they both needed to improve was 'mentally' if you like. This comes with age and maturity

Rashford (sorry to pick on him but needs to be done for comparison) does not have outstanding raw technical ability. His first touch is often very poor, when he runs with the ball he often looks ungainly and regularly over-runs the ball or takes a false touch and his heading ability is non-existent (in fact, he has bottled several good goalscoring opps. with his head). I don't see how, after 15yrs in the Manchester Utd set-up, any of these attributes are going to significantly improve just by getting older.

When Ronaldo was 'bad' it was because he would beat 3/4 players and then fail to deliver a cross because he wanted to do ten more stepovers. Very, very rarely did you see him take more than the odd poor touch or make the odd bad pass

When Rooney was 'bad' it was because he would boot someone up in the air and get sent off or be more concerned with chasing someone back into the fullback position out of frustration. Very, very rarely did you see him take more than the odd poor touch or make the odd bad pass

When Rashford is bad, he absolutely stinks the place out (see last 4/5 games). At times, on a bad day, if you saw Rashford and took off his red shirt (and your own red-tinted glasses), you would think he was a Championship player at best. I understand he also shows flashes of great skill - but Rooney and Ronaldo would be producing this every week and keeping their base level high

When Martial is bad, you don't even notice he is on the pitch. Rooney and Ronaldo where always involved. Even in their very worst games they were constantly at the centre of things and kept going, kept trying, kept having the confidence to make something happen and as supporters, you felt like they would!

When Shaw is bad, he looks like a hungover Sunday league fullback who had an double sausage mcmuffin on the way down!

I'm sorry if all of that sounds harsh...Rashford, Martial and Shaw are not bad players....I just have my doubts about whether they can be 'top' players in the way that Giggs, Beckham, Scholes, Rooney and Ronaldo where

Good post, man. That's why I couldn't be bother with posters who are naively think we should fill up our squad with all academy youngsters or young players, thinking they're all will turn into world class players.

And United can just patiently wait another 5 years and put up with all those inconsistency

 

[MackRobinson]

United since Fergie and Gill retired have been amateur hour. Let's take a look down memory lane:

• We completed a £27.5m move for Fellaini when his release clause if activated by July 31 would have been £23.5m (https://www.bbc.com/sport/football/23710170)
• We tried buy Herrera and were laughed at by Bilbao and Spanish FA (https://www.theguardian.com/football/2013/sep/03/ander-herrera-manchester-united)
• We purchased Mata for a £37.1m fee when he's clearly not a United type player - he is a great guy, he's not a great United player and this was obvious from day 1
• We waste time pursuing Kroos, Cesc, Bale etc.
• We fire Moyes
• We signed Angel di Maria for £59.7m only to get rid a year later. Someone should have done the homework on his personality, mentality, motivations etc prior to spending a British world record fee on a player. Failing that, someone should have ensured he settled in better in the new environment.
• We paid £27m for Luke Shaw, at the time one of the most expensive teenagers ever, basically for the price of Mane' and Tadic (which is what Southampton did). His career at United even prior to the knee injury was meh, and after recovery has also been meh. For comparison, Liverpool paid £10m for Robertson and he's a better player than Shaw is.
• Then we went back to Spain and paid the clause for Herrera a year later. Thankfully we learned this time.
• We bought Marcus Rojo, Daley Blind and Falcao. Complete scattergun approach.
• The following season we bought Schneiderlin and Schweinsteiger - that worked out well!
• We bought Depay, Darmian and brought Romero on a free (clearly the best transfer). But then we gave a contract to Victor Valdes, because why the feck not?
• We sold Chicharito for a pittance and he immediately went on an amazing scoring spree in Leverkusen. So much so that Leverkusen sold him 2 years after they bought him, for a profit. Well done Man Utd.
• Same thing for Jonny Evans, sold him to WBA for a pittance and they sold him to Leicester 3 years later for double the price. Well done Man Utd.
• To close the circle, we were quoted 70 million for Maguire, but thankfully we didn't bite.
• We bought Martial for a crazy fee (equivalent to KDB or 1.5x Mane or 1.5x Salah) and thankfully he's a great player but we certainly overpaid on transfer deadline.
• We fire LVG
• Enter Mourinho, we bring in the player of the year in Germany (£30m Mkhitaryan), player of the year in France (Zlatan on a free) and pay a world record fee for Pogba.
• A year in, Mourinho loses trust in Mkhitaryan and sends him to Arsenal in exchange for Sanchez. We give Sanchez a ridiculous salary that basically ruins our wage structure and threatens to ruin any future salary negotiations with existing players (see: De Gea now, Pogba possible next year). Sanchez needless to say has been a complete disaster on the pitch. We laughed at City for saying they couldn't afford Sanchez, but they were right, it's not just the transfer fee and the agent fee, it's the wages and the detrimental effect on the wage structure that is key. And he's been shite on the pitch.
• We also pay £30m for Eric Bailly who lacks a brain and consequently plays only when all the others are injured.
• We buy Lukaku, Matic and Lindeloff. For the outlay, none looks a bargain, and quite fits the United philosophy (except maybe Victor). Yes, I like Rom, and I think he's got the temperament and intelligence to be a United #9, but does he have the first touch, scoring record in big matches and participation in buildup play required of our leading striker? Not so sure. Matic is just a short term buy that appeased Mourinho. We finish a distant second to City and get bounced in Europe by Sevilla who have more 'eritage apparently.
• Then we buy Fred (of the famous, "Why did we buy Fred" thread)
• We buy Dalot and Grant.
• We fire Mourinho

So this is the record under Ed Woodward's stewardship. Spent a billion dollars and the squad is miles from the best in England, let alone the best in Europe.

Sporting director should be of equal stature and independent of the manager, have a long-term view in mind, keep the philosophy of the club in mind when recruiting players and not bring the manager's favorite flavors of the month to the club (Fellaini, Depay, Matic come to mind) and most importantly be in touch/contact with scouts and agents throughout the year to execute a competent transfer process and campaign. Michael Edwards and Txiki Begiristian take a lot of the burden from Klopp and Guardiola respectively with regards to team building. Big clubs like Juventus, Real Madrid, Barcelona, Bayern Munich have already made moves in the market and have a clear idea of what they want the squad to look like. We still don't know if we're going for Ole or Poch, and if we go for Poch when can we get him and how much will he cost us. So until that's settled we can't even plan the transfer campaign.

If there's one thing Ed is good at it's marketing and generating headlines. Every season we were in for Cristiano Ronaldo - the prodigal son - to bring him back, and it looked like every summer we got played for a better contract at Real Madrid. When Ronaldo actually wanted to move, he called his agent to get in touch with Juve and they agreed the terms in a couple of weeks. In March 2018. Then Juve agreed a fee with Real in June and that's that. End of story.

In a thread where he is being criticized for not making moves early (without a DOF everyone is clamoring for mind you), he is simultaneously taking heat for failed transfers (after the fact) AND not spending enough money. This is why I roll my eyes at the Woodward criticism. He's just a convenient "evil American banker" scapegoat.

Do you really think he initiates transfers or just signs the checks? Do you think a sporting director won't be prone to errors or perhaps end up not a good fit? There isn't a silver bullet and one can argue due to Ole's success the real issue over the Woodward's tenure has been underachieving managers rather than players.

Speaking of underachieving players, one thing I absolutely can't vibe with is how fans claim they knew a player wouldn't work out or he wasn't "United material". Not sure what this has to do with Woodward if he's just fulfilling the mangers wishes most of the time, but it's complete nonsense. The bolded are just after-the-fact criticisms that really aren't fair to a guy who signs checks. For instance (not trying to pick on you), you seemed fine with the money spent in the Sanchez signing initially. Just b/c he turns out to be shit, I don't understand why that is automatically Woodward's fault?

The real marketing geniuses are the Manchester United Supporters' Trust and the Red Knights. Their 2005 smear campaign against the Glazers for their leveraged buyout has led to the Glazer family and anyone directly employed by them to become the perpetual scapegoat whenever anything goes wrong with the club (look at some of the absurd comments in the "Should Mourinho go thread?" where the Glazer's and Woodward took a lot of the heat from the Jose loyalists).

I honestly would rather not defend a wealthy CEO, but some of the criticism is over-the-top.

 

[Bill Hartzia]

Levy isn't the elephant in the room and won't be...

 

[SER19]

If Herrera leaves on a free his time here encapsulates Woodward’s reign. The farce of trying to sign him in 2013 was genuinely embarrassing and I find that word overused, and now we may be letting him go on a free 5 years after getting him. Woodward is a shambles.

 

[9 Stone Elvis]

United since Fergie and Gill retired have been amateur hour. Let's take a look down memory lane:

• We completed a £27.5m move for Fellaini when his release clause if activated by July 31 would have been £23.5m (https://www.bbc.com/sport/football/23710170)
• We tried buy Herrera and were laughed at by Bilbao and Spanish FA (https://www.theguardian.com/football/2013/sep/03/ander-herrera-manchester-united)
• We purchased Mata for a £37.1m fee when he's clearly not a United type player - he is a great guy, he's not a great United player and this was obvious from day 1
• We waste time pursuing Kroos, Cesc, Bale etc.
• We fire Moyes
• We signed Angel di Maria for £59.7m only to get rid a year later. Someone should have done the homework on his personality, mentality, motivations etc prior to spending a British world record fee on a player. Failing that, someone should have ensured he settled in better in the new environment.
• We paid £27m for Luke Shaw, at the time one of the most expensive teenagers ever, basically for the price of Mane' and Tadic (which is what Southampton did). His career at United even prior to the knee injury was meh, and after recovery has also been meh. For comparison, Liverpool paid £10m for Robertson and he's a better player than Shaw is.
• Then we went back to Spain and paid the clause for Herrera a year later. Thankfully we learned this time.
• We bought Marcus Rojo, Daley Blind and Falcao. Complete scattergun approach.
• The following season we bought Schneiderlin and Schweinsteiger - that worked out well!
• We bought Depay, Darmian and brought Romero on a free (clearly the best transfer). But then we gave a contract to Victor Valdes, because why the feck not?
• We sold Chicharito for a pittance and he immediately went on an amazing scoring spree in Leverkusen. So much so that Leverkusen sold him 2 years after they bought him, for a profit. Well done Man Utd.
• Same thing for Jonny Evans, sold him to WBA for a pittance and they sold him to Leicester 3 years later for double the price. Well done Man Utd.
• To close the circle, we were quoted 70 million for Maguire, but thankfully we didn't bite.
• We bought Martial for a crazy fee (equivalent to KDB or 1.5x Mane or 1.5x Salah) and thankfully he's a great player but we certainly overpaid on transfer deadline.
• We fire LVG
• Enter Mourinho, we bring in the player of the year in Germany (£30m Mkhitaryan), player of the year in France (Zlatan on a free) and pay a world record fee for Pogba.
• A year in, Mourinho loses trust in Mkhitaryan and sends him to Arsenal in exchange for Sanchez. We give Sanchez a ridiculous salary that basically ruins our wage structure and threatens to ruin any future salary negotiations with existing players (see: De Gea now, Pogba possible next year). Sanchez needless to say has been a complete disaster on the pitch. We laughed at City for saying they couldn't afford Sanchez, but they were right, it's not just the transfer fee and the agent fee, it's the wages and the detrimental effect on the wage structure that is key. And he's been shite on the pitch.
• We also pay £30m for Eric Bailly who lacks a brain and consequently plays only when all the others are injured.
• We buy Lukaku, Matic and Lindeloff. For the outlay, none looks a bargain, and quite fits the United philosophy (except maybe Victor). Yes, I like Rom, and I think he's got the temperament and intelligence to be a United #9, but does he have the first touch, scoring record in big matches and participation in buildup play required of our leading striker? Not so sure. Matic is just a short term buy that appeased Mourinho. We finish a distant second to City and get bounced in Europe by Sevilla who have more 'eritage apparently.
• Then we buy Fred (of the famous, "Why did we buy Fred" thread)
• We buy Dalot and Grant.
• We fire Mourinho

So this is the record under Ed Woodward's stewardship. Spent a billion dollars and the squad is miles from the best in England, let alone the best in Europe.

Sporting director should be of equal stature and independent of the manager, have a long-term view in mind, keep the philosophy of the club in mind when recruiting players and not bring the manager's favorite flavors of the month to the club (Fellaini, Depay, Matic come to mind) and most importantly be in touch/contact with scouts and agents throughout the year to execute a competent transfer process and campaign. Michael Edwards and Txiki Begiristian take a lot of the burden from Klopp and Guardiola respectively with regards to team building. Big clubs like Juventus, Real Madrid, Barcelona, Bayern Munich have already made moves in the market and have a clear idea of what they want the squad to look like. We still don't know if we're going for Ole or Poch, and if we go for Poch when can we get him and how much will he cost us. So until that's settled we can't even plan the transfer campaign.

If there's one thing Ed is good at it's marketing and generating headlines. Every season we were in for Cristiano Ronaldo - the prodigal son - to bring him back, and it looked like every summer we got played for a better contract at Real Madrid. When Ronaldo actually wanted to move, he called his agent to get in touch with Juve and they agreed the terms in a couple of weeks. In March 2018. Then Juve agreed a fee with Real in June and that's that. End of story.

This is what confuses me.

I read here that we will not challenge until we get rid of the Glazers and Woodward.

Yet we have spent "a billion dollars".

We talk of not backing the manager yet we are blaming Woodward for the signings being crap. So is it the manager picking the signings or Woodward?

Everything after the departure of Moyes smacks of Monday Morning Quarterback. Across the forums I read, the media and most outlets there was a level of optimism and pleasure at the managerial appointments and the signings made at the time. We say "Thank **** we didn't back Mourinho by signing Maguire" yet bemoan not backing the manager.

In Van Gaal and Mourinho we appointed men with decent pedigree and we backed them in the transfer market with significant funds. We have demonstrated in 3 months with Solskjaer that a group of players are capable of more than they were showing. Perhaps the boys that have been through the revolving door since 2013 would have been too under different leadership.

It seems to me that for some the desire is to criticise retrospectively regardless of what the club do. Spend money and we are overpaying for crap signings. Don't spend money and we aren't backing the manager. Keep the manager on and we are dithering. Sack the manager and we are knee jerking.

The above list of perceived disasters could very easily be eclipsed by the penny pinching and non-signings of the PLC era in the 90s and signings made by Ferguson in the 00s if we really want to spin things in that manner.

Bottom line - win on the pitch and it justifies most things off it (Bebe, Anderson, Nani, Hargreaves, Veron etc etc), don't win on the pitch and anything done off it will be shot at.

 

[Copa Mundial]

Correct - as I have said elsewhere, the majority of posters have been suckered into believing that all of the above have the potential to be world class because of the Class of 92 + Ronaldo & Rooney - however, they forget (or are not aware) that all of those players came into the side and made a huge impact from day one!

The likes of Giggs, Rooney and Ronaldo in particular came into the side as teenagers and where consistently in our best 2/3 players most games. The likes of Martial, Rashford and Shaw have one good game in four/five and most of the others listed above are mediocre at best the majority of the time. I am sure someone will come up with some nonsense stats to attempt to prove me wrong but I watched those players grow up and I'll say with total certainty in my mind that they were all streets ahead of the current crop in terms of ability.

Some posters seem to think a player will improve just by getting older which I also find really bizarre...again they are confused by what happened with the likes of Rooney and Ronaldo.

Ronaldo, for example, had all of the raw ability in the world, he could beat people for fun, his delivery was good, his shooting was a little wild but technique of striking the ball was good and he was physically phenomenal. What he lacked was the ruthlessness and awareness to put his amazing natural ability to best effect.

Rooney was a 'street' footballer when he arrived at Utd. A real dynamo of a player who combined power, speed and first-class technique. However, he had a bad temper and was easily wound-up and could get very frustrated in games, which sometimes effected his performance.

My point is, Ronaldo and Rooney had outstanding, almost unique abilities even at 18/19. Where they both needed to improve was 'mentally' if you like. This comes with age and maturity

Rashford (sorry to pick on him but needs to be done for comparison) does not have outstanding raw technical ability. His first touch is often very poor, when he runs with the ball he often looks ungainly and regularly over-runs the ball or takes a false touch and his heading ability is non-existent (in fact, he has bottled several good goalscoring opps. with his head). I don't see how, after 15yrs in the Manchester Utd set-up, any of these attributes are going to significantly improve just by getting older.

When Ronaldo was 'bad' it was because he would beat 3/4 players and then fail to deliver a cross because he wanted to do ten more stepovers. Very, very rarely did you see him take more than the odd poor touch or make the odd bad pass

When Rooney was 'bad' it was because he would boot someone up in the air and get sent off or be more concerned with chasing someone back into the fullback position out of frustration. Very, very rarely did you see him take more than the odd poor touch or make the odd bad pass

When Rashford is bad, he absolutely stinks the place out (see last 4/5 games). At times, on a bad day, if you saw Rashford and took off his red shirt (and your own red-tinted glasses), you would think he was a Championship player at best. I understand he also shows flashes of great skill - but Rooney and Ronaldo would be producing this every week and keeping their base level high

When Martial is bad, you don't even notice he is on the pitch. Rooney and Ronaldo where always involved. Even in their very worst games they were constantly at the centre of things and kept going, kept trying, kept having the confidence to make something happen and as supporters, you felt like they would!

When Shaw is bad, he looks like a hungover Sunday league fullback who had an double sausage mcmuffin on the way down!

I'm sorry if all of that sounds harsh...Rashford, Martial and Shaw are not bad players....I just have my doubts about whether they can be 'top' players in the way that Giggs, Beckham, Scholes, Rooney and Ronaldo where

Agree 100% with this!

As I mentioned in my post we are relying on players coming good which is not a good place for a club of Utd's stature to be in.

I'm glad you were brave enough to highlight Rashford's deficiencies, as a noob to the Caf I thought I'd better tread lightly.

When I hear people talk about Rashford, his potential and how young he is I immediately compare him to the likes of Owen, Fowler and Rooney. It was clear to see these players clearly had the ability from 18 years old and were proving it week in week out. Their skill levels and technical ability far surpassed that of Rashford's. Rashford has one decent game and because he plays for Utd he is hyped up beyond belief. Stick him in a mid table team and nobody would be talking about him.

In fact you could stick half of our players in a mid table team and they would not stand out imho.

Very few of our players if any would get into the current City or Liverpool teams at the moment. We need to start filling our team with proven quality and not relying on players to just 'come good'.

 

[9 Stone Elvis]

The Class of 92 would not have come through in 2019 though because they simply wouldn't have been given the chance. We don't have time to let players develop now because there really isn't time for anything. That said I don't believe Rashford is absolutely top drawer but I think he is a very good player who deserves to be part of the first team squad. the issue becomes if we play him and he plays badly there will always be a clamour for a big signing in his position rather than sticking with him. That's just the way of the world.

I do agree that the top young players tend to make their mark very early which is why I look at how long we waited for Lingard to "come good" and I shake my head. I suspect we have dropped standards to meet him rather than him raising his game to be good enough for where we should be.

 

[Paxi]

Phil Brown was saying this weeks ago but people don't like him so it didn't count.

 

[TRUERED89]

Agree 100% with this!

As I mentioned in my post we are relying on players coming good which is not a good place for a club of Utd's stature to be in.

I'm glad you were brave enough to highlight Rashford's deficiencies, as a noob to the Caf I thought I'd better tread lightly.

When I hear people talk about Rashford, his potential and how young he is I immediately compare him to the likes of Owen, Fowler and Rooney. It was clear to see these players clearly had the ability from 18 years old and were proving it week in week out. Their skill levels and technical ability far surpassed that of Rashford's. Rashford has one decent game and because he plays for Utd he is hyped up beyond belief. Stick him in a mid table team and nobody would be talking about him.

In fact you could stick half of our players in a mid table team and they would not stand out imho.

Very few of our players if any would get into the current City or Liverpool teams at the moment. We need to start filling our team with proven quality and not relying on players to just 'come good'.

Rashord's numbers are better than Rooney & Ronaldo when they were 21 and those two had a proper manager, imagine Rashy under Fergie instead of LVG and Jose, come on guys lay off him, there's plenty more to come, we cant compare everyone to Ronaldo anyway because he's quite possibly the best player who ever lived. Not to mention the bottle the kid showed in the 93rd min to smash that pen past Buffon..

 

[R'hllor]

What we want to become and how to attain it is 2 different matters.

Any fans can tell you about how why and what Manchester united is all about and what we want for our football club. Basically we want another class of 92 and another saf. Getting them is another thing.

Having a clear vision and setting things up to work towards it is another.

 

[Moriarty]

This

It's very good isn't it? Depressing, but good.

One thing that wasn't mentioned (or I overlooked it) was the state of the ground. Old Trafford will need upgrading soon and that won't be cheap.

 

[fezzerUTD]

This is what confuses me.

I read here that we will not challenge until we get rid of the Glazers and Woodward.

Yet we have spent "a billion dollars".

We talk of not backing the manager yet we are blaming Woodward for the signings being crap. So is it the manager picking the signings or Woodward?

Everything after the departure of Moyes smacks of Monday Morning Quarterback. Across the forums I read, the media and most outlets there was a level of optimism and pleasure at the managerial appointments and the signings made at the time. We say "Thank **** we didn't back Mourinho by signing Maguire" yet bemoan not backing the manager.

In Van Gaal and Mourinho we appointed men with decent pedigree and we backed them in the transfer market with significant funds. We have demonstrated in 3 months with Solskjaer that a group of players are capable of more than they were showing. Perhaps the boys that have been through the revolving door since 2013 would have been too under different leadership.

It seems to me that for some the desire is to criticise retrospectively regardless of what the club do. Spend money and we are overpaying for crap signings. Don't spend money and we aren't backing the manager. Keep the manager on and we are dithering. Sack the manager and we are knee jerking.

The above list of perceived disasters could very easily be eclipsed by the penny pinching and non-signings of the PLC era in the 90s and signings made by Ferguson in the 00s if we really want to spin things in that manner.

Bottom line - win on the pitch and it justifies most things off it (Bebe, Anderson, Nani, Hargreaves, Veron etc etc), don't win on the pitch and anything done off it will be shot at.

It's not the money expenditure that is the issue, it is that Ed Woodward is making the decisions and has no idea about how to run a football club. So until him and the Glazers are gone, people are right Utd wont be a challenger.
People might say well Glazers and Woodward are separate? Yes they are hence why it all went to shish when David Gill went, they obviously dont care about Woodwards position as long as he makes them tons of cash.
Its the infrastructure not the money.

 

[9 Stone Elvis]

It's not the money expenditure that is the issue, it is that Ed Woodward is making the decisions and has no idea about how to run a football club. So until him and the Glazers are gone, people are right Utd wont be a challenger.
People might say well Glazers and Woodward are separate? Yes they are hence why it all went to shish when David Gill went, they obviously dont care about Woodwards position as long as he makes them tons of cash.
Its the infrastructure not the money.

So are we saying that both LVG and Mourinho didn't pick the players we signed and that Woodward chose them and gave them to the managers?

 

[fezzerUTD]

So are we saying that both LVG and Mourinho didn't pick the players we signed and that Woodward chose them and gave them to the managers?

Bravo, somebody gets it.

 

[Suedesi]

In a thread where he is being criticized for not making moves early (without a DOF everyone is clamoring for mind you), he is simultaneously taking heat for failed transfers (after the fact) AND not spending enough money. This is why I roll my eyes at the Woodward criticism. He's just a convenient "evil American banker" scapegoat.

Do you really think he initiates transfers or just signs the checks? Do you think a sporting director won't be prone to errors or perhaps end up not a good fit? There isn't a silver bullet and one can argue due to Ole's success the real issue over the Woodward's tenure has been underachieving managers rather than players.

Speaking of underachieving players, one thing I absolutely can't vibe with is how fans claim they knew a player wouldn't work out or he wasn't "United material". Not sure what this has to do with Woodward if he's just fulfilling the mangers wishes most of the time, but it's complete nonsense. The bolded are just after-the-fact criticisms that really aren't fair to a guy who signs checks. For instance (not trying to pick on you), you seemed fine with the money spent in the Sanchez signing initially. Just b/c he turns out to be shit, I don't understand why that is automatically Woodward's fault?

The real marketing geniuses are the Manchester United Supporters' Trust and the Red Knights. Their 2005 smear campaign against the Glazers for their leveraged buyout has led to the Glazer family and anyone directly employed by them to become the perpetual scapegoat whenever anything goes wrong with the club (look at some of the absurd comments in the "Should Mourinho go thread?" where the Glazer's and Woodward took a lot of the heat from the Jose loyalists).

I honestly would rather not defend a wealthy CEO, but some of the criticism is over-the-top.

Woodward criticism is fair, because as the CEO the buck ultimately stops with him. Maybe he's loved by the owners and shareholders for keeping the share price up, but as a supporter I don't think he's done a good job. It's not the "not spending enough" argument - if that was case, I'd say his pursestrings are tied and that's just that. The argument against Woodward "he's wasted too much money" and that's highlighted in his approach to manager recruitment (ignoring Moyes, but going from LVG to Mourinho is beyond ridiculous), to player recruitment (you can re-read the bullet points again) and the fact that there's no footballing continuity at the club once a manager goes. Certain players are United players regardless if the manager is Moyes, LVG or Mourinho. What happened instead is you've got a manager clearing the deck of existing squad, failing, and then you've got the subsequent manager doing the same. So you've got a lot of churn, a lot of squad-building, without strategic thinking.

Sir Alex was unique, but the club and the fanbase should move on from a system that worked uniquely for HIM. Instead we should aim for a system that is used successfully by all the big clubs in Europe. Unless we find a new Ferguson.

 

[jem]

I am not too concerned about Ole. He is work in progress but most of his ideas are top notch, he's decent in man management and he's got potential.

What truly worry me is

- Its 17th March and we've yet to hire a top DOF. We can't let Ole handle all the responsibility by himself. That destroyed more experienced managers let alone someone whose learning the ropes

- While other clubs are busy signing new players for next year (Ramsay will soon join Juventus, De Jong will soon sign with Barcelona, Godin will join Inter next summer, Pavard will join Bayern) we've yet to do anything on the transfer market front. That despite having so many positions that need to be strengthened + the EPL transfer deadline is ridiculously short.

- The likes of DDG, Herrera and Periera are heading towards the end of his contract. We need that to be sorted pronto.

- One of the best Football CEOs has change clubs and we weren't even remotely interested in him. Instead we still cling to Woodward whose good in making money but has proven time and time again that he's got no idea about football matters.

I grew up a Dallas Cowboys fan, and the Woodward/Jerry Jones parallels are disturbingly similar (obviously Woodward isn't the owner, but still.)

 

[9 Stone Elvis]

Woodward criticism is fair, because as the CEO the buck ultimately stops with him. Maybe he's loved by the owners and shareholders for keeping the share price up, but as a supporter I don't think he's done a good job. It's not the "not spending enough" argument - if that was case, I'd say his pursestrings are tied and that's just that. The argument against Woodward "he's wasted too much money" and that's highlighted in his approach to manager recruitment (ignoring Moyes, but going from LVG to Mourinho is beyond ridiculous), to player recruitment (you can re-read the bullet points again) and the fact that there's no footballing continuity at the club once a manager goes. Certain players are United players regardless if the manager is Moyes, LVG or Mourinho. What happened instead is you've got a manager clearing the deck of existing squad, failing, and then you've got the subsequent manager doing the same. So you've got a lot of churn, a lot of squad-building, without strategic thinking.

Sir Alex was unique, but the club and the fanbase should move on from a system that worked uniquely for HIM. Instead we should aim for a system that is used successfully by all the big clubs in Europe. Unless we find a new Ferguson.

Its TWO managers, its not an extensive list.

Its also contradictory to blame Woodward on the one hand for poor player recruitment (suggesting he selected the players) while on the other blaming him for a lack of continuity in managerial styles because they cleared the decks and brought in their own players to fit their styles.

 

[KingMinger22]

We have spent one of the most in world football in the past 5 years but it still hasn't been nearly enough.

If Real Madrid had been as shit as we have during this period, they would have spent that in one season and on the highest calibre of players.

See: 2009, 2019 (likely).

We need massive investment right now. At least four top class players. That's probably not going to happen.

 

[Suedesi]

Its TWO managers, its not an extensive list.

Its also contradictory to blame Woodward on the one hand for poor player recruitment (suggesting he selected the players) while on the other blaming him for a lack of continuity in managerial styles because they cleared the decks and brought in their own players to fit their styles.

No it ain't - you're missing the point as per usual.

I'm blaming Woodward, as United CEO for the scattergun approach in player and manager recruitment without a coherent philosophy.

 

[tomaldinho1]

My biggest worry though isn't how poor we are with money because, luckily, we are a commercial behemoth. My worry is that the weight of the success of the class of '92 is like an anchor on the team, it's a constant insurmountable yardstick of comparison only made worse by the fact that pretty much all of the class of '92 bar Beckham & Butt regularly appear on tv criticising this United team. 'Not a United player' has become one of my pet hates because it's like we're stuck in this weird vacuum where we have an obsession with a)trying to bring youth players through and b)playing a brand of counter attacking football that hasn't really evolved in over a decade.

As is seen often in this forum, I feel we (as a club) are always thinking in such basic terms - find an aerially dominant CB, find a 'creative' midfielder or a pacey winger. What we need to do is address (in LVG's accent) our philosophy because at the moment it seems like we're happy harking back to how we used to play when the league was completely different. Name the top 5 or so teams in Europe right now....none of them play in the same way we do and there's a reason for that.

 

[9 Stone Elvis]

No it ain't - you're missing the point as per usual.

I'm blaming Woodward, as United CEO for the scattergun approach in player and manager recruitment without a coherent philosophy.

Is that not being addressed if he appoints Solskjaer in so far as he is a "united" man playing a "united" way and therefore "United" signings will follow. I do get what you are saying but I link there is a logic to the Van Gaal appointment and then the Mourinho appointment given the circumstances we were in at the time. I would also say that MANY of the signings were welcomed at the time by most people and their continued failure to adapt was a source of frustration. Something that was illustrated further by latterly the same group of players looking completely different under Solskjaer compared to Mourinho which suggests the problem wasn't player recruitment but player deployment. Unless we absolutely know who chooses the players its difficult to speak in definitives. Given the nature and personality of both Van Gaal and Mourinho they don't strike me as the types who would allow £500m of players they didn't want to be foisted on them by a man with no football background and just accept it quietly.

 

[Red Dreams]

The debacle of the Sanchez contract overshadows all the mistakes done since Fergie left.
Now all the players are running down their contracts to get lot more money.
The obvious cost of replacing players at current market value is the key factor.

De Gea and Herrera are key players for us.

Mata may want more playing time as well.

Next season Pogba is certain to want huge money too.

 

[Patrick08]

I will keep it simple, It's only Ed Woodward and his way of doing things worries me at Man united. He is just effing clueless.

Handing Jones a 5 year contract because he is 26 and letting de gea's and herrera's contract to run down as they are older and near 30's which might affect their mentality and form in the most crucial time of the year are some of his latest feckups. Not worried about losing them two but it surely can effect mentality of the players and deflect attention from their game. Also Mata's contract is running down and we won't earn money off him or he will sign a big contract with which he will b difficult to move on.

Man united is in nose dive mode under ed Woodward and the glazers have to act and make some much necessary fundamental changes at the club.

 

[Patrick08]

We need massive investment right now. At least four top class players. That's probably not going to happen.

Investment will happen. The worry remains if it will happen on the right signings with a proper strategy or not.

 

[purgethefallen]

Correct - as I have said elsewhere, the majority of posters have been suckered into believing that all of the above have the potential to be world class because of the Class of 92 + Ronaldo & Rooney - however, they forget (or are not aware) that all of those players came into the side and made a huge impact from day one!

The likes of Giggs, Rooney and Ronaldo in particular came into the side as teenagers and where consistently in our best 2/3 players most games. The likes of Martial, Rashford and Shaw have one good game in four/five and most of the others listed above are mediocre at best the majority of the time. I am sure someone will come up with some nonsense stats to attempt to prove me wrong but I watched those players grow up and I'll say with total certainty in my mind that they were all streets ahead of the current crop in terms of ability.

Some posters seem to think a player will improve just by getting older which I also find really bizarre...again they are confused by what happened with the likes of Rooney and Ronaldo.

Ronaldo, for example, had all of the raw ability in the world, he could beat people for fun, his delivery was good, his shooting was a little wild but technique of striking the ball was good and he was physically phenomenal. What he lacked was the ruthlessness and awareness to put his amazing natural ability to best effect.

Rooney was a 'street' footballer when he arrived at Utd. A real dynamo of a player who combined power, speed and first-class technique. However, he had a bad temper and was easily wound-up and could get very frustrated in games, which sometimes effected his performance.

My point is, Ronaldo and Rooney had outstanding, almost unique abilities even at 18/19. Where they both needed to improve was 'mentally' if you like. This comes with age and maturity

Rashford (sorry to pick on him but needs to be done for comparison) does not have outstanding raw technical ability. His first touch is often very poor, when he runs with the ball he often looks ungainly and regularly over-runs the ball or takes a false touch and his heading ability is non-existent (in fact, he has bottled several good goalscoring opps. with his head). I don't see how, after 15yrs in the Manchester Utd set-up, any of these attributes are going to significantly improve just by getting older.

When Ronaldo was 'bad' it was because he would beat 3/4 players and then fail to deliver a cross because he wanted to do ten more stepovers. Very, very rarely did you see him take more than the odd poor touch or make the odd bad pass

When Rooney was 'bad' it was because he would boot someone up in the air and get sent off or be more concerned with chasing someone back into the fullback position out of frustration. Very, very rarely did you see him take more than the odd poor touch or make the odd bad pass

When Rashford is bad, he absolutely stinks the place out (see last 4/5 games). At times, on a bad day, if you saw Rashford and took off his red shirt (and your own red-tinted glasses), you would think he was a Championship player at best. I understand he also shows flashes of great skill - but Rooney and Ronaldo would be producing this every week and keeping their base level high

When Martial is bad, you don't even notice he is on the pitch. Rooney and Ronaldo where always involved. Even in their very worst games they were constantly at the centre of things and kept going, kept trying, kept having the confidence to make something happen and as supporters, you felt like they would!

When Shaw is bad, he looks like a hungover Sunday league fullback who had an double sausage mcmuffin on the way down!

I'm sorry if all of that sounds harsh...Rashford, Martial and Shaw are not bad players....I just have my doubts about whether they can be 'top' players in the way that Giggs, Beckham, Scholes, Rooney and Ronaldo where

Think you're being a bit harsh on Shaw there, imo he's the best by far of those you've mentioned. Agree with all your other points, though.

I know it's not a popular opinion, but I believe that wholesale improvements are required, this team/squad is nowhere near to being good enough.

 

[POF]

Small matter that City wouldn't sell to United. Also I am sure they were well aware of his potential but now they have seen how he has played at senior level they have added reassurance that he is worth that kind of money. But ultimately, nothing to do with United not having a DOF.


It depends on exactly what model is implemented but really this is more geared towards the scouting department. The DOF isn't necessarily looking for bargains but for the right fit of player to compliment the team. if thats Sancho at 150 mil why wouldn't a DOF sanction that move, going for a cheaper alternative might result in an underperforming team.


But now you have an issue in that Manager and DOF will both point at each other as being the cause. The coach is under performing because the DOF brought in crap players, the DOF feels the players were good but the coach is misusing them. I don't think the split in roles makes it any easier to determine liability for poor performance.

I completely agree that if Sancho is who they want, then go for him. The problem is, the current United has such a slip shod recruitment process that they only ever go for players when they are at their most expensive.

As an example, when Sancho was at City, if United saw him as a long term major target for the club, tap him up, pay his agent £10m on the proviso he signs no more than a 3-year deal at Dortmund, then bid for him in 18-24 months when Dortmund are forced to sell.

If you know he's likely to sign in 12 months then you can plan accordingly.

But they didn't identify him as a major target until now because there is absolutely no long term plan and the extent of the planning seems to be a list of 5 players provided by the manager just before every window. Now Dortmund hold all of the cards and it will take a small fortune to sign a player who is in his first season of senior football.

If the coach and DoF are pointing fingers at each other then the right people aren't in the roles. In particular with someone like Ole, if the club can't find a DoF who can work with him they're not trying hard enough.

The acid test on players recruited is how much other clubs are willing to pay for those players. If whoever signed Sanchez can sell him this summer for £50m it's a good signing. If he's an albatross around the club's neck that they can't get rid of, causing issues for every contract negotiation (like he is) then the DoF would be clearly accountable.

 

[wolvored]

If Eddie continues with his maverick ways, like he has so far, we are in some more tough times. This is a very important window, and we need to be making quick moves and get players in as early as possible. It's not going to be easy with Bayern and Real both looking to have big windows. They both have already made their moves. We cannot be caught napping with our dicks in our hands, again.

Will Eddie be able to deliver? Well....watch this space!

I think he knows he is drinking in the last chance saloon with this one. Thats why he gave Ole the job while he, and maybe he has others helping him decide who to bring in. Ole has been the surprise as no one expected him to do what he has done. The fact that there has been no announcement yet, means maybe there might be an agreement with another manager, or maybe Ole has got it and perhaps they are working on a DOF, and want to announce both at the same time. I think big cash will be flashed this summer whoever comes in. Lets hope we do a lot better than previous years.

 

[the chameleon]

It's his pure incompetence.

I was anti-Mourinho. I'm anti-Glazer. I can never forgive what they done to the club post purchase.

But Woodward has been the biggest constant in our time in the shadows of English football.

He has allowed players to run down contracts. Rewarded mediocre players with new contracts.

He has never been able to make shrewd signings. When he sacked LVG, he should built on that possession approach by getting a more modern version of LVG. But he opted for a completely different style.

His consistent obsession with Galacticos over functional team players. Whilst other clubs spend the season trying to building up their interest in players, we seem to come in right at the end when the player has already chosen another club.

Van Dyke was an example of that.

He either can't keep attract a DoF because they know they won't be able to do their jobs or he's playing the fans along and sees himself as a championship manager player.

When things go bad, he'll do a press release to ease up fan's fears. I wouldn't be surprised if he has assistants reading here who are tasked with when to make the next press release on the DoF.

The amount of players we've skipped that would have made us contenders on both domestic and European fronts.

 

[ForestRGoinUp]

My biggest worry though isn't how poor we are with money because, luckily, we are a commercial behemoth. My worry is that the weight of the success of the class of '92 is like an anchor on the team, it's a constant insurmountable yardstick of comparison only made worse by the fact that pretty much all of the class of '92 bar Beckham & Butt regularly appear on tv criticising this United team. 'Not a United player' has become one of my pet hates because it's like we're stuck in this weird vacuum where we have an obsession with a)trying to bring youth players through and b)playing a brand of counter attacking football that hasn't really evolved in over a decade.

As is seen often in this forum, I feel we (as a club) are always thinking in such basic terms - find an aerially dominant CB, find a 'creative' midfielder or a pacey winger. What we need to do is address (in LVG's accent) our philosophy because at the moment it seems like we're happy harking back to how we used to play when the league was completely different. Name the top 5 or so teams in Europe right now....none of them play in the same way we do and there's a reason for that.

Bingo

 

[sideshow_bob]

United since Fergie and Gill retired have been amateur hour. Let's take a look down memory lane:

• We completed a £27.5m move for Fellaini when his release clause if activated by July 31 would have been £23.5m (https://www.bbc.com/sport/football/23710170)
• We tried buy Herrera and were laughed at by Bilbao and Spanish FA (https://www.theguardian.com/football/2013/sep/03/ander-herrera-manchester-united)
• We purchased Mata for a £37.1m fee when he's clearly not a United type player - he is a great guy, he's not a great United player and this was obvious from day 1
• We waste time pursuing Kroos, Cesc, Bale etc.
• We fire Moyes
• We signed Angel di Maria for £59.7m only to get rid a year later. Someone should have done the homework on his personality, mentality, motivations etc prior to spending a British world record fee on a player. Failing that, someone should have ensured he settled in better in the new environment.
• We paid £27m for Luke Shaw, at the time one of the most expensive teenagers ever, basically for the price of Mane' and Tadic (which is what Southampton did). His career at United even prior to the knee injury was meh, and after recovery has also been meh. For comparison, Liverpool paid £10m for Robertson and he's a better player than Shaw is.
• Then we went back to Spain and paid the clause for Herrera a year later. Thankfully we learned this time.
• We bought Marcus Rojo, Daley Blind and Falcao. Complete scattergun approach.
• The following season we bought Schneiderlin and Schweinsteiger - that worked out well!
• We bought Depay, Darmian and brought Romero on a free (clearly the best transfer). But then we gave a contract to Victor Valdes, because why the feck not?
• We sold Chicharito for a pittance and he immediately went on an amazing scoring spree in Leverkusen. So much so that Leverkusen sold him 2 years after they bought him, for a profit. Well done Man Utd.
• Same thing for Jonny Evans, sold him to WBA for a pittance and they sold him to Leicester 3 years later for double the price. Well done Man Utd.
• To close the circle, we were quoted 70 million for Maguire, but thankfully we didn't bite.
• We bought Martial for a crazy fee (equivalent to KDB or 1.5x Mane or 1.5x Salah) and thankfully he's a great player but we certainly overpaid on transfer deadline.
• We fire LVG
• Enter Mourinho, we bring in the player of the year in Germany (£30m Mkhitaryan), player of the year in France (Zlatan on a free) and pay a world record fee for Pogba.
• A year in, Mourinho loses trust in Mkhitaryan and sends him to Arsenal in exchange for Sanchez. We give Sanchez a ridiculous salary that basically ruins our wage structure and threatens to ruin any future salary negotiations with existing players (see: De Gea now, Pogba possible next year). Sanchez needless to say has been a complete disaster on the pitch. We laughed at City for saying they couldn't afford Sanchez, but they were right, it's not just the transfer fee and the agent fee, it's the wages and the detrimental effect on the wage structure that is key. And he's been shite on the pitch.
• We also pay £30m for Eric Bailly who lacks a brain and consequently plays only when all the others are injured.
• We buy Lukaku, Matic and Lindeloff. For the outlay, none looks a bargain, and quite fits the United philosophy (except maybe Victor). Yes, I like Rom, and I think he's got the temperament and intelligence to be a United #9, but does he have the first touch, scoring record in big matches and participation in buildup play required of our leading striker? Not so sure. Matic is just a short term buy that appeased Mourinho. We finish a distant second to City and get bounced in Europe by Sevilla who have more 'eritage apparently.
• Then we buy Fred (of the famous, "Why did we buy Fred" thread)
• We buy Dalot and Grant.
• We fire Mourinho

So this is the record under Ed Woodward's stewardship. Spent a billion dollars and the squad is miles from the best in England, let alone the best in Europe.

Sporting director should be of equal stature and independent of the manager, have a long-term view in mind, keep the philosophy of the club in mind when recruiting players and not bring the manager's favorite flavors of the month to the club (Fellaini, Depay, Matic come to mind) and most importantly be in touch/contact with scouts and agents throughout the year to execute a competent transfer process and campaign. Michael Edwards and Txiki Begiristian take a lot of the burden from Klopp and Guardiola respectively with regards to team building. Big clubs like Juventus, Real Madrid, Barcelona, Bayern Munich have already made moves in the market and have a clear idea of what they want the squad to look like. We still don't know if we're going for Ole or Poch, and if we go for Poch when can we get him and how much will he cost us. So until that's settled we can't even plan the transfer campaign.

If there's one thing Ed is good at it's marketing and generating headlines. Every season we were in for Cristiano Ronaldo - the prodigal son - to bring him back, and it looked like every summer we got played for a better contract at Real Madrid. When Ronaldo actually wanted to move, he called his agent to get in touch with Juve and they agreed the terms in a couple of weeks. In March 2018. Then Juve agreed a fee with Real in June and that's that. End of story.

Brilliant!
The next time I see a "but why do we need a DOF?" comment, I'm going to refer to this post.

 

[Wumminator]

Brilliant!
The next time I see a "but why do we need a DOF?" comment, I'm going to refer to this post.

You could redo that list for Arsenal/City/Chelsea/Liverpool/Tottenham

 

[devilish]

I really don't understand what people actually want.

One the one hand not backing Mourinho last summer was a stick to beat Woodward with. Yet its been shown that the players the club had could perform to a far higher standard under someone who wasn't Mourinho so in that sense Woodward was right. But then you would suggest that by not backing the manager you are undermining his role.

So instead we officially undermine his role by employing a DofF to sign the players and make the decisions giving the manager a get out clause for failure and an additional hurdle to overcome in order to get success.

It seems to me we haven't had any issues signing players since 2013 aside from the first window after Fergies departure. We have spent unparalleled amounts of cash on players who haven't worked out yet we have also seen that put the players in the right formation with an attacking mentality and (last Saturday aside) they will tend to win.

Why not just actually get the right man in the dugout who can actually motivate and work with the players and then back him in the market for the players he identifies and do it because he is the right man rather than through in another layers of admin because in truth we don't trust the managers we are appointing in the first place?

we've spent 400m on transfers and we've got one of the highest salary bill in football with so little to show for. Most of our top players are heading towards the end of their contract, we're struggling to attract the players we need and some of the utter stupidity made throughout the past 6 years border to the hilarious. I mean, who on earth would buy a player for more money on deadline day when just few days before we could have activated the minimum clause fee and get him for cheaper?

Woodward is great in making money. He's horrible in spending it. He needs help on the football side.

 

[FootyGirl88]

You could redo that list for Arsenal/City/Chelsea/Liverpool/Tottenham

Liverpool and City have one and look where they are now, Chelsea had one but he left and their signings haven't been great since he's departure. Arsenal are also using a DOF going forward.

 

[beedoubleyou]

We don't really have a clue what's happening inside the club, but I've a feeling Ole cares about United as much, if not more, than most fans and will do his best to steer us in the right direction.

His experience as a manager, while not insignificant, might not make him a Sir Alex-shaped sage - but he knows more than any of us and I've complete faith in the path he'll take us down.

He won't look at United like a three-year chapter in his career as the previous two managers did, he's not here to leverage an expensive contract in an easier league.

Ole cares about United like we do and has witnessed what we have we equal aghast.

I truly believe he will prioritise the long-term future of the club and will start by getting the right mix in the locker room.

If he thinks a DOF is the right way to go, I'm sure that's the way we'll go.

It's March. If you don't think things are happening behind the scenes, you're insane.

It's March. I don't expect our plans to be shared publicly.

It's March.

 

[JohnnyLaw]

Liverpool and City have one and look where they are now, Chelsea had one but he left and their signings haven't been great since he's departure. Arsenal are also using a DOF going forward.

Citys and Liverpools success coincides with the appointments of Pep and Klopp. You could just aswell attribute their respective success to the managers as you could the DoF structures, especially in Citys case as they signed plenty of duds between the time Txiki took charge and Peps appointment.

 

[bushyboy]

Great post @Suedesi.

I'm not a Glazer or Woodward fan. In hindsight, it's always easy to criticize. At the time Van Gaal and Mourinho were the best options considering Klopp and Pep weren't available?

The biggest problem was that we didn't have luck with most of our signings who failed to live up to expectations.

Utd seem reactionary instead of being proactive. When last have we signed a top talent before another big club has?

Hopefully Ole gets the job, gets backed in the transfer market, gets a bit of luck with his signings doing great, and has the balls to get rid of mediocre players.