Messi v Ronaldo | Contains double your daily salt allowance

Messi or Ronaldo

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matbezlima

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To be honest, this whole debate about Messi improving those around him vs CR7 is stupid. There are too many factors to consider and not enough data to be able to say anything conclusive.

It takes time to adjust to a new team / system, players fluctuate in performance from season to season for no good obvious reason, injuries, what position they play in respective teams, other members of the team also play a huge role. Like you can't say Messi improves the output of the people around him by saying Zlatan had slightly better better average goal scored / minute in Barcelona compared to the season before / after. It's simply too hard to quantify.
I agree with this.

Answering to Cal, it is clearly false that players maintain the same level throughout their careers. Also, Suárez was brilliant in his first two seasons with Barcelona, but he has sharply declined ever since, and Suárez is the only one to blame. He is the one who must be praised for his first two brilliant seasons too.
 

Claudius

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The only way this debate makes any sense at all is if you dumb down the discussion as much as possible to just goals and assists. The more dimensions that you analyze, the more it becomes abundantly clear how superior Messi is as a player.

I find it absurd how people like Cal in this thread have somehow concluded that dribbling is meaningless unless it directly leads to something (a goal or assist). Is that also the case with key passes/through balls and such??? Football is a game of probabilities and the team that generates the most offense and highest quality offense is far more likely to score.

OPTA themselves have published graphics that say a progressive pass/run DOUBLES the likelihood that a team will score within the next 7 seconds. In this case a progressive pass/run is defined as one that advances the ball at least 10 meters.

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/the-neymar-deal-was-certainly-crazy-but-was-it-smart/

Here's an OPTA graphic that shows that Messi, at the age of 30, was head and shoulders all other players including guys like Neymar at ball progression. And keep in mind this is years after his prime, and especially his dribbling prime. Back in 2011 Messi averaged almost 2x (!!!) as many dribbles per game as he did when this graphic was made (around 2016/17).

https://barcanumbers.wordpress.com/2018/12/06/who-are-the-best-finishers-in-contemporary-football/

Here is an extensive study that took 100's of thousands of shots between the year 2006 and 2017 and analyzed finishing efficiency by players based on shot location. Messi is #1 in shooting efficiency at almost every range and #1 overall, far above other players. Where is Cristiano? Not even in the top 200. In fact, it should be statistically impossible that Messi is that efficient of a finisher given his volume of shots and the degree of difficulty.

Outside of just raw goalscoring totals, Messi is several standard deviations above Ronaldo in almost every other significant offensive statistic (except for aerial duels lol). Dribbling, dribbling efficiency, chance creation, passing accuracy, touches per game, finishing efficiency, etc. Messi is head and shoulders above in these categories.



But the real thing is that these numbers should not matter. Anyone who watches the game can see how much greater Messi's impact is all over the pitch. Anyone can see how his legendary performances in La Liga and CL are vastly more impressive than Ronaldo's whom relies largely on 1 touch finishes in the box to make an impact. Anyone can see how the degree of difficulty on most of Messi's goals/assists/actions are way, way more impressive than most of Ronaldo's.

Not to say that CR isn't a titan of the game, but people are suddenly re-defining legacy to mean "goals" in this thread. Pre-2010 not a single person said shit about Muller being comparable to Beckenbauer as an influence on Germany/Bayern and yet in this thread some people have the audacity to say they were very close to comparable. Guys like Cruyff, Maradona, Zidane, and many many more would not be anywhere near the top based on the re-defined criteria people are using just to put Ronaldo on the same pedestal as Messi.

And that's the difference between them. You don't need to redefine what it means to be "great" to see why Messi is the GOAT, whereas you have to use some insanely dumbed down mental gymnastics to justify saying Cristiano is the GOAT. Peoples' insistence on putting his name in the same sentence as Messi has done him so many favors. It's allowed him, in the minds of some, to basically leapfrog Maradona/Cruyff and the likes in GOAT discussions just because he's compared to Leo and handwave away any serious debate that never took place as to why CR is suddenly greater than they are.
 
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Cal?

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Some Twitter post I came across.


Just kidding. Transfermarkt.de.
07/08 - 22/34 (2,659 min) = 0.65/game, 121 min/goal
08/09 - 29/47 (4,154 min) = 0.62/game, 143 min/goal
09/10 - 21/45 (3,282 min) = 0.47/game, 156 min/goal

:rolleyes:
 

Hughie77

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Just put a statue of Messi up in Barca, so the lovers can have a pilgrim every year on his Birthday, bow in front of it put ribbons on it, hang baubles off it, and the pigeons will have somewhere to sit.

Bet someone says there's no pigeons in Barcelona, or if they are fly upside down not to shit on the place.
 

sun_tzu

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Just put a statue of Messi up in Barca, so the lovers can have a pilgrim every year on his Birthday, bow in front of it put ribbons on it, hang baubles off it, and the pigeons will have somewhere to sit.

Bet someone says there's no pigeons in Barcelona, or if they are fly upside down not to shit on the place.
Can we have a poll over who has the best statue
 
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Cloud7

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Messi’s passing and vision really is out of this world. Even if you ignore his goalscoring, he’s probably the most creative player in world football.
 

Tostao_80

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Messi’s passing and vision really is out of this world. Even if you ignore his goalscoring, he’s probably the most creative player in world football.
But he didn't score so what does it matter? Must be having a bad game.
 

Eddy_JukeZ

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Messi’s passing and vision really is out of this world. Even if you ignore his goalscoring, he’s probably the most creative player in world football.
Clearly the most creative player in world football.

This is what makes him special.

An incredible finisher, creative passer and dribbler all rolled into one with incredible decision making to boot.
 

padr81

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Leo should have joined us at City when he had the chance. Playing with a team of bottlers.
 

2mufc0

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Leo should have joined us at City when he had the chance. Playing with a team of bottlers.
Yeah city with the massive haul of 0 European cups, not bottlers at all.
 

altodevil

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I expect Messi to drop from his 820 (65.2%).

Which is so dumb.
 

freeurmind

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In before the mods close the poll again after Messi goes missing in the second leg.
 

marktan

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Why was this poll re-opened anyway after Messi's performance in the first leg and Ronaldo went out of the CL? Obviously the votes are going to increase for Messi.

Bit unfair considering Ronaldo's had 3 CL's in a row and this forum has goldfish memory.
 

JB08

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I’m firmly in the Messi camp but aye, there is no way Ronaldo would struggle to motivate one of his sides like Messi has here, with a fecking 3-0 lead.
 

Amar__

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I’m firmly in the Messi camp but aye, there is no way Ronaldo would struggle to motivate one of his sides like Messi has here, with a fecking 3-0 lead.
Yeah, he is a great motivator. I heard he has his Ted talk video.
 

2mufc0

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Just trotting around the centre circle with poor workrate no urgency , supposed to be the captain ffs.
 

JarkiJarko

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Barca concede 4. Whose fault is that? Messi's of course. Just like conceding 3 vs Roma was his fault too.
 

Red Stone

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Doing a reverse Ronaldo today. Heroically giving his side a massive lead in the first leg and then pissing it away pathetically in the second.

Messi is a master bottler and this is why he'll never be the greatest ever. He might be the most talented, he might have the highest ceiling, but he'll never be the greatest.
 

SportingCP96

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"GOAT" "Greatest of all time" "Easily the best ever" FECK outta here.

Don't anyone EVER say that again! as I have said MANY times Messi is the more TALENTED of the two bur Ronaldo is the best PLAYER. Always has been always will be.

Messi does not have that "thing" he does not have that X factor nor the mental fortitude to be the GOAT he does not have the thing that makes Tom Brady, Michael Jordan and....Cristiano Ronaldo the best.

I have always said this ALWAYS! I truly can be arsed by what anyone says right now TWO seasons in a row he let a 3 goal lead slip...thats your GOAT? Ronaldo would NEVER let it happen and all of you know that. Ronaldo would never let this slip and certainly not back to back. Just like he would NEVER lose 3 finals in a row.

The difference is some players SCORE 3 goals to claw their team back from a 2 goal deficit while the other lets TWO 2 goal leads SLIP back to back.

Enough of this. Like I said this debate ended 2016. Copa Americas, World Cup, TWO back to back 3 goal leads....sorry guys Messi just does not have IT.

Football is not just talent and the intangibles are just as valuable no matter which way you put it.

Anyone who says "its not even close" or "Goat" should not even get a response. He is not even the best of this generation let alone the goat.
 

Amar__

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Doing a reverse Ronaldo today. Heroically giving his side a massive lead in the first leg and then pissing it away pathetically in the second.

Messi is a master bottler and this is why he'll never be the greatest ever. He might be the most talented, he might have the highest ceiling, but he'll never be the greatest.
He was their best player tonight by a fecking mile :lol:
 

SportingCP96

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Doing a reverse Ronaldo today. Heroically giving his side a massive lead in the first leg and then pissing it away pathetically in the second.

Messi is a master bottler and this is why he'll never be the greatest ever. He might be the most talented, he might have the highest ceiling, but he'll never be the greatest.
Exactly Talent alone does not make you the GOAT and that is why guys like Brady and Jordan are the best.
 

Snowjoe

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I’ve closed the poll as I don’t think we should have it sullied by knee jerk voting
 
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