Ludo Draft SF: GSTQ vs Indnyc

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

vs

........................................................ TEAM GSTQ ............................................................................................... TEAM INDNYC .............................................





TEAM GSTQ

Tactics: The team plays a standard 4-2-3-1

Defending: Man marking system with below specific roles

1. Shesternyov marks Henry
2. Djalma marks Ronaldinho
3. Andrade marks Ronaldo
4. Zito marks Charlton

Style of play: Take control of the game and take the game to the opposition with aggressive positive football.

Specifics to be discussed during the game in the thread.



TEAM INDNYC

Formation: 4-2-1-3

Tactics: Fluid counter attacking setup with interchangable front 4 and attack through the opposition flanks

Attack : Cristiano Ronaldo starts on the right but like Charlton, Ronaldinho, and Henry is given a free role to move wherever he wants.

This was Ronaldo at United starting nominally on the right but drifting all over. Ronaldinho, Charlton, and Henry are perfectly capable of drifting all over the pitch

Midfield :

Vieira is playing as a B2B and Ocwirk is the deepest defensive midfielder. They will get support from Charlton in the defensive phase of the game. Ockwirk would look to release Ronaldo and Ronaldinho as quickly as possible

Defence :

Bossis, and Ashley Cole are the fullbacks with both of them being balanced is supporting the flanks rather than primarily attacking. Vidic, Carvalho, and Banks form a strong central core.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

@GodShaveTheQueen @Indnyc All the best!

 

[Indnyc]

Good luck @GodShaveTheQueen

Don’t really have any weaknesses in the team so can’t really criticize.

I’m not sure the tactics on Man marking my forwards is the best approach though.. Henry, Ronaldo and Ronaldinho are exceedingly good at interchanging positions which make them incredibly difficult to man mark.

Similarly, Charlton drops deep fairly often to dictate the play and Zito following him may not really be the best use.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

Good luck @Indnyc

Just reached home and the kid is really excited to see me. Will join the discussion in a while. I do have some really interesting points to make.

 

[Indnyc]

Good luck @Indnyc

Just reached home and the kid is really excited to see me. Will join the discussion in a while. I do have some really interesting points to make.

Sure.. I am in and out and will comment when I am around

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

Don’t really have any weaknesses in the team so can’t really criticize.

I rarely criticize the opposition tactics in any of my games, but this time, its difficult not to.

I think playing Ocwirk in this game is a huge tactical blunder. And I'll give you my reasons why.

Having researched a fair bit on Ocwirk's playing style in the past, its very easy to deduce that in the defensive phase of the game, he was a very reactive player and not a proactive one.

If anyone finds the point vague, below is what I define as a reactive player and a proactive player in the defensive phase.

Reactive player : One who waits for his opponent to make his run or move before dealing with him. These kind of players would usually be effective against direct players (runners, dribblers etc)

Proactive player : One who plans to be down the opponent's nose all the time even before he gets the chance to make his move or express himself. These kind of players would usually be effective against players who can take the game away from you if you give them time and space to read the game and express themselves.

Ocwirk probably is one of the most reactive great defensive midfielders of all time.

Against someone like Di Stefano, playing him is absolutely suicidal. You simply can't give Di Stefano the freedom he would have here with Ocwirk not the kind to track him around. Sure, you have Charlton and Vieira in the mix, but they are secondary and tertiary defensive contributors. They would have other responsibilities too like combating the other opposition midfielders, making their presence felt on the counters etc. If you sacrifice them, its like losing on multiple other aspects just to cover for Ocwirk's playing style which is again pretty much suicidal.

I can see Di Stefano running a riot from midfield here. That midfield is sorely missing a figure like Zito in my team.

And this is from someone who is probably the biggest Ocwirk fan here. I ran out of words for complimenting your midfield in the last game and in isolation, it still is awesome. You put him against a Laudrup or Zico and I'd not bad an eye lid. Against Di Stefano, he becomes a huge liability in my eyes.

 

[harms]

And still one step away from the (probably suicidal) mouthwatering front five of Gento-Puskas-Di Stefano-Kocsis-Garrincha
Puskas and Di Stefano will score anyway, but to have one of the all-time greats at the end of Gento's and Garrincha's crosses would've been great.

There will be tons of goals in this game, I'll just have to decide for myself which side will score more in the end.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

I’m not sure the tactics on Man marking my forwards is the best approach though.. Henry, Ronaldo and Ronaldinho are exceedingly good at interchanging positions which make them incredibly difficult to man mark.

Similarly, Charlton drops deep fairly often to dictate the play and Zito following him may not really be the best use.

I think most people miss a very basic aspect of Man marking and zonal defending. I have said it in other games before as well.

All man marking systems have a bit of zonal marking to them and all zonal marking systems have a bit of man marking to them. There is no such thing as pure man marking or pure zonal marking.

Just because players can interchange, doesn't mean man marking systems are toast. In fact most modern systems to date are man marking systems. And most modern systems have a good bit of interchanging in attack.

Now what matters is also the defenders in question and their styles of play and zones they impact.

Lets take my 2 defenders against your 2 best attackers for example.

1. Djalma Santos - While probably the greatest defensive right back of all time, could also play a CB and has often been used a RCB
2. Victor Andrade - Has played across the pitch as a left half back, right half back and a defensive midfielder

You already see how versatile they are. They are capable of moving away from their original positions and still being at home in so many other positions. That is where the primary man marking and secondary impact on multiple zones takes the idea home beautifully. (Now where this would have broken is if you had gung ho wing backs like Carlos with Ronaldinho).

Lets go to the last defender in question.

Albert Shesternyov - He faced R9 in the last game and won plaudits as a very good fit against a pacy striker. Henry while not being a poor man's R9 is a midddle class man's Fenomeno. I think this will be a similar but definitely easy task for him than the last game and makes so much sense.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

And still one step away from the (probably suicidal) mouthwatering front five of Gento-Puskas-Di Stefano-Kocsis-Garrincha

You see reinforcements for me have been pointless, so I wanted freshness in every game with different formations.
My formation if I make it to the final has been decided from R1 and all 5 of them will start. It will probably lose but its so awesome. I will post it if I lose this game.

Puskas and Di Stefano will score anyway, but to have one of the all-time greats at the end of Gento's and Garrincha's crosses would've been great.

You know I thought a couple of people would say this but below was my thinking -

1. That great Madrid team with the same Gento-Puskas-Di Stefano axis never had any GOAT header around. They went on to win European Cups for fun.
2. Vava had about the same height and heading capability as Puskas. Most of those assists from Garrincha on the right seemed low crosses scored with the foot rather than headers to me. Both his assists in the 1958 WC final were low crosses scored off the foot rather than head. The burst of pace and a quick low cross was his trademark. Something that any poacher would love.
3. Lastly, Vidic would have been a pretty nice match for Kocsis in the air, so you know after so many games that people would consider Kocsis just a good header and nothing else which would kill that battle for me.

So I decided to go with the poacher Puskas here who would be right at home with Di Stefano and Gento while Garrincha being decent company.

 

[harms]

You know I thought a couple of people would say this but below was my thinking -

1. That great Madrid team with the same Gento-Puskas-Di Stefano axis never had any GOAT header around. They went on to win European Cups for fun.

Yeah, it’s obviously a proven and brilliant partnership that’ll score any type of goals for fun. It’s just that Kocsis would’ve given them even more threat and variety.

 

[Indnyc]

I think most people miss a very basic aspect of Man marking and zonal defending. I have said it in other games before as well.

All man marking systems have a bit of zonal marking to them and all zonal marking systems have a bit of man marking to them. There is no such thing as pure man marking or pure zonal marking.

Just because players can interchange, doesn't mean man marking systems are toast. In fact most modern systems to date are man marking systems. And most modern systems have a good bit of interchanging in attack.

Now what matters is also the defenders in question and their styles of play and zones they impact.

Lets take my 2 defenders against your 2 best attackers for example.

1. Djalma Santos - While probably the greatest defensive right back of all time, could also play a CB and has often been used a RCB
2. Victor Andrade - Has played across the pitch as a left half back, right half back and a defensive midfielder

You already see how versatile they are. They are capable of moving away from their original positions and still being at home in so many other positions. That is where the primary man marking and secondary impact on multiple zones takes the idea home beautifully. (Now where this would have broken is if you had gung ho wing backs like Carlos with Ronaldinho).

Lets go to the last defender in question.

Albert Shesternyov - He faced R9 in the last game and won plaudits as a very good fit against a pacy striker. Henry while not being a poor man's R9 is a midddle class man's Fenomeno. I think this will be a similar but definitely easy task for him than the last game and makes so much sense.

I am not going to comment on the Ocwirk being reactive/proactive because i disagree and it's a pointless argument.

Ocwirk to me was a wonderful player and his ability to dictate play from the back is unparalleled. As for a tactical blunder, my other option was Makelele and i can already hear the comments he would have got.

The key battle in the game is who scores more and i genuinely don't know who will score more really.

Your views on your two full backs vs my two best attackers can easily be switched if we say Cole and Bossis as well?

If Djama has claims to be the best right back, Cole has arguments to be one of the best modern fullbacks

Andrade was amazing but i argue his best performances came on the right (Not saying he isn't great on the left) and is not significantly better than Bossis

I'll probably only take Djalma in my team.. Definitely prefer Vidic - Carvalho over your Central Pairing.

Henry was great in targeting weaker centerbacks ( Same with C. Ronaldo btw) and i can see them targeting Santamaria (Not that he is in anyway a weak defender).

On Zonal Marking vs. Man to Man marking, i get the difference but when you call out "Specific Roles" it means you are following my players which i think is a recipe for disaster.

 

[Indnyc]

And still one step away from the (probably suicidal) mouthwatering front five of Gento-Puskas-Di Stefano-Kocsis-Garrincha
Puskas and Di Stefano will score anyway, but to have one of the all-time greats at the end of Gento's and Garrincha's crosses would've been great.

There will be tons of goals in this game, I'll just have to decide for myself which side will score more in the end.

I think this is the crux of it. I genuinely can't say which team will score more.

In general i think my wingers have a better scoring record than his and his striker and no.10 have better goal scoring records.

I would also like to hear views from neutrals who is the more hard working no. 10 between Charlton and Di Stefano

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

I am not going to comment on the Ocwirk being reactive/proactive because i disagree and it's a pointless argument.

Heyy if you want to dismiss the whole detailed argument I presented as pointless without providing any defense, that is your call. I'll let the voters decide the validity or pointlessness of the argument

Ocwirk to me was a wonderful player and his ability to dictate play from the back is unparalleled.

And who questioned that part of it? The whole argument I presented was around the defensive side of his game and his style of play. Not sure what value it adds to that discussion.

Its funny you didn't disagree with my analysis of Ocwirk and your midfield in the last game when I was all praises but today its pointless. Fair does

The key battle in the game is who scores more and i genuinely don't know who will score more really.

I am not sure how the eventual scoreline or who scores more goals can be the 'key battle' of any football game. That is taking an overly simplified conclusion to the game without feeling the need to discuss any other actual key battles like 'Di Stefano vs Ocwirk'.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

If Djama has claims to be the best right back, Cole has arguments to be one of the best modern fullbacks

Sure, I wouldn't disagree. I will slightly correct it.
Djalma has claims to be the greatest right back of all time while Cole has claims to be one of the best of modern times.

I am sure deep down you know me to be a fair guy when it comes to judging. I already pointed out Cole from your team and Zanetti from 2mufc0's as not out of place players against a great right winger in my last game

You don't need to go till Maldini. I'd say Zanetti from @2mufc0 's team or Cole from @Indnyc 's wouldn't 'pop out'.

Sure it won't be a cake walk for them and they might still fail. You can never trust anyone fully against the likes of Garrincha and Fenomeno on their day

But Zanetti and Cole surely wouldn't pop out like Carlos does here. Not by any stretch of imagination.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

Henry was great in targeting weaker centerbacks ( Same with C. Ronaldo btw) and i can see them targeting Santamaria (Not that he is in anyway a weak defender).

See this is such a naive view. Santamaria - weaker defender. Vidic - better defender. Game, set, match.

They both had some great things about them and some weaknesses in their games. Without taking them into account, just passing judgements is not sensible. Or at least not my style.

I have watched enough of Santmaria and I made a very detailed post on him in the last game (no copy paste, my own observations). No one cared for it but let me post it again to see if anyone reads.

Been eagerly waiting for someone to bring this up.

I think this is not the perfect way to look at it even though I have been critical of him as well.
Below is how I look at him.

Having watched a lot of him, I noticed two flaws in his game or in the Madrid defensive structure

1. He committed a lot into his tackles/headers and if he didn't win the duel, he left a big space behind (3 man defense with 2 of them covering out wide as well) which was great for the opposition to exploit.
2. He was not a good organizer of a defense. The number of times that Madrid defense looked out of shape was very often.

How do you work around these flaws? Below is how I would do it.

1. Pair him with a good organizer of a defense so that he is not solely responsible for doing it.
2. Pair him with a good sweeper who could cover behind for his stopper partner.

In essence, you pair Santamaria with say a Forster/Kohler, its a terrible idea.

You pair him with a Tresor/Shesternyov, you have a great partnership.

There is a fairly modern example to emphasize this even more. Take John Terry and Riccardo Carvalho.

Take Carvalho out of the equation and Terry looked an average defender with tonnes of mistakes in him (You can't win all your duels obviously).
You pair him with a Carvalho to cover for him, you get the team with best defensive record of the PL era.

There is a reason Santamaria is remembered as a great of all times and there is a reason why he is often criticized. But its not pure white and black. You need to look at both the reasons and then build the defense the best way you can.

 

[Indnyc]

Heyy if you want to dismiss the whole detailed argument I presented as pointless without providing any defense, that is your call. I'll let the voters decide the validity or pointlessness of the argument

And who questioned that part of it? The whole argument I presented was around the defensive side of his game and his style of play. Not sure what value it adds to that discussion.

Its funny you didn't disagree with my analysis of Ocwirk and your midfield in the last game because I was all praises but today its pointless. Fair does

I said i disagree with your assessment that Ocwirk was a reactive player. Now that is the starting point of your argument. I genuinely don't have anything else to add on it.

My view is that he is as good as anybody in the defensive side of the game against Di Stefano ( Excluding the GOATs like Rijkaard). His style of play of sitting deep and dictating is exactly what i need to play long balls to release my wingers. I think he'll do well to slow down Di Stefano and that's all i can ask for.

I am not sure how the eventual scoreline or who scores more goals can be the 'key battle' of any football game. That is taking an overly simplified conclusion to the game without feeling the need to discuss any other actual key battles like 'Di Stefano vs Ocwirk'.

I don't really see a big difference in the two sides even in terms of tactics. Both teams would love to see the ball in wider areas getting wingers more involved.. A no. 10 who is great in dictating play..

Di Stefano vs. Ocwirk is such a narrow way of looking at it.. Carvalho is perfectly capable of stepping out and so is Vieira.. It isn't like Ocwirk is going to be isolated all the time

 

[Indnyc]

See this is such a naive view. Santamaria - weaker defender. Vidic - better defender. Game, set, match.

They both had some great things about them and some weaknesses in their games. Without taking them into account, just passing judgements is not sensible. Or at least not my style.

I have watched enough of Santmaria and I made a very detailed post on him in the last game (no copy paste, my own observations). No one cared for it but let me post it again to see if anyone reads.

I never said the bolded part or even implied it.. All i said was between your two center backs, my wingers and center forward will target the weaker one..

And that i prefer my defense over yours but that doesn't mean it is better or worse.. I prefer a certain style of player and i prefer a Carvalho who can step out and snuff attacks and Vidic who is a rock solid body on line kind of defender

 

[Indnyc]

Sure, I wouldn't disagree. I will slightly correct it.
Djalma has claims to be the greatest right back of all time while Cole has claims to be one of the best of modern times.

I am sure deep down you know me to be a fair guy when it comes to judging. I already pointed out Cole from your team and Zanetti from 2mufc0's as not out of place players against a great right winger in my last game

Sure and that's exactly what i said about Cole.. Great modern fullback and Bossis is a reasonably good fit for Gento.. I don't think either are really out of place..

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

I said i disagree with your assessment that Ocwirk was a reactive player. Now that is the starting point of your argument. I genuinely don't have anything else to add on it.

So in the last game you compared him to Busquets and now you don't think he is a reactive player? So Busquets is not a reactive player? You'd be the first one to call him a proactive player.

My view is that he is as good as anybody in the defensive side of the game against Di Stefano ( Excluding the GOATs like Rijkaard).

Wow, you know what, get one of the well knowledgeable long time drafters on here to agree to him being defensively as good as anybody against Di Stefano other than GOAT's like Rijkaard and I will let you take the game right away.

I don't really see a big difference in the two sides even in terms of tactics. Both teams would love to see the ball in wider areas getting wingers more involved.. A no. 10 who is great in dictating play..

If you don't see the difference between a Zito and Ocwirk's playing style and what they bring to the table and if you don't see what kind of player is needed to stop the likes of Di Stefano and Charlton, I wouldn't expect you to see a 'big difference in the two sides tactically'

Di Stefano vs. Ocwirk is such a narrow way of looking at it.. Carvalho is perfectly capable of stepping out and so is Vieira.. It isn't like Ocwirk is going to be isolated all the time

He is your primary defensive shield in midfield. Expecting him to look around for defensive help is as big a liability as it gets.

Sure, Vieira and Charlton had good workrate, but they still needed Makelele and Stiles alongside them in their best teams. They were supposed to add an additional secondary shield in midfield, not cover for the primary defensive player in midfield itself.

And Di Stefano vs Ocwirk is not a narrow way of looking at it. As I said before, a player that could work against Laudrup or Zico won't necessarily work against Di Stefano or Hidegkuti.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

As for a tactical blunder, my other option was Makelele and i can already hear the comments he would have got.

Just wanted to reply on this.

Whether Makelele would have been a good decision or not depends on how you would have setup.

If you would have setup like the current 4-3-3, I would not have been very impressed as Makelele was also not very agile which works in Di Stefano's favour.

If you would have setup like a proper 4-2-3-1 with Vieira being the double pivot (with of course some B2B responsibilities), I would have liked it. In fact, that is what I expected to face.

Proven partnership of course in France's glory years.

 

[harms]

You have Makelele, who had won everything next to Vieira and formed arguably the greatest defensive unit in Premier League's history alongside Carvalho and Cole and you choose Ocwirk?

It's hard for me to get behind the "unparalleled" passing game of Ocwirk or him being as good as any non-Rijkaard DM defensively. He is a good player but he's not going to be able to stop Di Stefano — and I can't see how he is a better choice than Makelele here.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

Tactics: Fluid counter attacking setup with interchangable front 4 and attack through the opposition flanks

I should have seen and replied to this at the start but I think I will reply to this before heading for a long nap.

Ocwirk was a brilliant player. All testimony suggests he was gem.

He was called the director in both attack and defense for a reason. And that reason was to dominate and control games from midfield.

If someone asks me to build a team around Ocwirk, it will be one that would have a lot of the ball and look to play on the front foot.

Not a counter attacking setup. Sure, he'd be great at finding the forwards on the counters.

But that is not what made him great. He is a player Pep would love. Not one that would love to play in a counter attacking setup.

Would be detrimental to both his defensive side and not give him the chance to fully express his magnificent offensive side.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

I will join the discussion again tomorrow @Indnyc

Been a good to and fro with a good amount of hard tackles from both sides

Hopefully more neutrals chime in by the time I am up again. Cheers.

 

[Gio]

GSTQ has set up well here to mitigate Indnyc's key strengths. The full-back choices and Shesternyev are three of the most optimal you could envisage against that stupendous trio.

You have Makelele, who had won everything next to Vieira and formed arguably the greatest defensive unit in Premier League's history alongside Carvalho and Cole and you choose Ocwirk?

It's hard for me to get behind the "unparalleled" passing game of Ocwirk or him being as good as any non-Rijkaard DM defensively. He is a good player but he's not going to be able to stop Di Stefano — and I can't see how he is a better choice than Makelele here.

Yeah. I rate Ocwirk highly, but he looks vulnerable here against a guy who scored so heavily from that area of the park. More so where that defence needs a tad more protection with Puskas floating around.

 

[Indnyc]

I will join the discussion again tomorrow @Indnyc

Been a good to and fro with a good amount of hard tackles from both sides

Hopefully more neutrals chime in by the time I am up again. Cheers.

Congratulations! I got busy yesterday and couldn’t log on.. Great team and all the best in the final

 

[Indnyc]

You have Makelele, who had won everything next to Vieira and formed arguably the greatest defensive unit in Premier League's history alongside Carvalho and Cole and you choose Ocwirk?

It's hard for me to get behind the "unparalleled" passing game of Ocwirk or him being as good as any non-Rijkaard DM defensively. He is a good player but he's not going to be able to stop Di Stefano — and I can't see how he is a better choice than Makelele here.

I messed up.. Should have played Makelele but doubt it would have been enough against GSTQs Juggernaut

Cheers for the comments

 

[Enigma_87]

I messed up.. Should have played Makelele but doubt it would have been enough against GSTQs Juggernaut

Cheers for the comments

Ocwirk doesn't get enough credit here and to be honest, without properly assessing him myself (videos, games) it's hard to imagine him holding his own in such a pivotal role.

Looking at the game you would probably edge it in midfield with Makelele, but as a whole it was going to be uphill battle either way as there is too much quality on the opposite side that would create more opportunities to outscore you IMO.

 

[Indnyc]

Ocwirk doesn't get enough credit here and to be honest, without properly assessing him myself (videos, games) it's hard to imagine him holding his own in such a pivotal role.

Looking at the game you would probably edge it in midfield with Makelele, but as a whole it was going to be uphill battle either way as there is too much quality on the opposite side that would create more opportunities to outscore you IMO.

Fair points. When i started i wanted my midfield to be Vieira and Schweinsteiger.. In the end i couldn't find another defensive midfielder when Schweinsteiger got blocked

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

Congratulations! I got busy yesterday and couldn’t log on.. Great team and all the best in the final

Thanks mate.

Congratulations on a great draft to you as well. I am sure you enjoyed building that lot.

 

[Synco]

Congrats @GodShaveTheQueen, first of all! Clean sweep.

But despite being too late here: shouldn't GSTQ's decision to go for explicit man marking have received more attention as a major factor in this game?

First of all, I certainly have a lot to learn on the subject and the collective mechanisms involved. GSTQ's post (#8) makes it sound like markers following their players and leaving their position is no big deal, and the benefits of zonal marking would somehow still sufficiently apply. Tbh, I'd still have to be convinced by that, not least because of his team's specific setup.

My (provisional) reasoning: I tend to agree with @Indnyc, especially on the ability of his marked players to use their intelligent movement to their team's advantage. To me it seems like this could have seriously disrupted GSTQ's defensive order. After all, four out of six of GSTQ's defensive players can be dragged away from their position, to whatever extent. And I'm not sure how many of their offensive teammates would have put in a shift to consistently fill the holes, and defend the vacated spaces? Wouldn't that open up a lot of space for unmarked players, like Cole, Bossis and Vieira?

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

Congrats @GodShaveTheQueen, first of all! Clean sweep.

Thanks, I got lucky with you not getting a chance to vote on time

To me it seems like this could have seriously disrupted GSTQ's defensive order. After all, four out of six of GSTQ's defensive players can be dragged away from their position, to whatever extent.

The bold part is where we think differently. Lets take an example

1. Herrera man marking Hazard
2. Man Utd defense man marking Chelsea's attack

There is a big difference in Case 1 and 2.

The difference is 'to whatever extent' is only applicable in case 1. Herrera can follow Hazard every where he goes from one flank to the other and from the AM position to deep lying playmaker's position. While Herrera contributes very little to the shape of the team in this case, the rest of the team remains in shape.

When a team man marks another team, it doesn't work that way. If Cristiano runs towards the left flank, it doesn't mean Andrade will blindly follow him. If Charlton drops between the CB's to build from the back, doesn't mean Zito would go to the centre forward position. Each man marking player in such a setup would have certain zones and limits till where he will follow his assignee. Beyond them, you would expect the shape and defensive organization of the team to work in auto pilot mode.

Wouldn't that open up a lot of space for unmarked players, like Cole, Bossis and Vieira?

Vieira, I don't agree. Lets not forget there is Coluna in the midfield too.

Now coming to Cole and Bossis, you are absolutely right. Such a setup can break with attacking full backs who can constantly open newer channels and more permutations than the man marking defenders can handle. In fact, I mentioned this myself in the thread earlier.

You already see how versatile they are. They are capable of moving away from their original positions and still being at home in so many other positions. That is where the primary man marking and secondary impact on multiple zones takes the idea home beautifully. (Now where this would have broken is if you had gung ho wing backs like Carlos with Ronaldinho).

But, below was my thinking -

1. Neither Cole and Bossis were super attacking fullbacks although they could contribute
2. I didn't expect Indy to give them attacking roles with the wingers I have who could absolutely rip the defense on counters with their sheer pace.

I was right with point 2. Below is from the OP.

Defence :

Bossis, and Ashley Cole are the fullbacks with both of them being balanced is supporting the flanks rather than primarily attacking. Vidic, Carvalho, and Banks form a strong central core.