Utd Sign Carrick

[Fortitude]

Fecking 'ell, I give up. I've not got the energy to argue with fantasy football fans today...

That's quite pathetic. Carrick is not a DM and he does not play like one. It really is simple. IF you can't grasp it, then you should give up.

 

[CnutOfAllCnuts]

I don't know what game it is you're watching. You're completely wrong. No point going on and on about this. 8yrs ago there were some of the very best 'box-to-box' midfielders around, because teams played that way. The position is almost eradicated now as your list of 5 'box-to'box' players would show. 5yrs ago that list would have read Keane, Vieira, Redondo, Effenberg and Davids...now look at that shite list of players you put up and tell me the position is not dying out. Only Gerrard comes close to any of them.

There are plenty of them around, but the trend these days seem to be that most team plays with a holding midfielder. These trends come and go, like 15 years ago it was very populare to play with wing-backs. That trend didn't "eradicate" full-backs and wingers.

 

[Mozza]

I don't know what game it is you're watching. You're completely wrong. No point going on and on about this. 8yrs ago there were some of the very best 'box-to-box' midfielders around, because teams played that way. The position is almost eradicated now as your list of 5 'box-to'box' players would show. 5yrs ago that list would have read Keane, Vieira, Redondo, Effenberg and Davids...now look at that shite list of players you put up and tell me the position is not dying out. Only Gerrard comes close to any of them.

Its not dying out, there's been a dip in quality but almost every team has there allrounder in midfield, the one who does a bit of everything

 

[Fortitude]

why not? various combinations of smith, fletcher, giggs and oshea worked last season

Fletcher, Smith and O'Shea have more of the aggression needed for the role. Playing Scholes and Carrick against a top class midfield without cover is suicide.

 

[CnutOfAllCnuts]

That's quite pathetic. Carrick is not a DM and he does not play like one. It really is simple. IF you can't grasp it, then you should give up.

No, Carrick isn't a "DM", he is a centre midfielder. A decent one, and better than what we have, so will most likely improve our team. Hurrah!

 

[Fortitude]

Of course it COULD work, seeing as they are both two handy midfielders.

Whether it will work, remains to be seen.

What kind of non-commital answer is that. Give your opinion. Would it work, or not?

 

[CnutOfAllCnuts]

Fletcher, Smith and O'Shea have more of the aggression needed for the role.

O'Shea has aggression?

Why has he never shown any of that on the pitch?

 

[Mozza]

Most managers want their wingers to attack. And not have to cover for ineffienciencies in the middle of the pitch.

Its not about the ineffiencies of there midfield, they can only cover so much ground, if the winger doesn't track the oppositions fullback no one is going to

 

[Fortitude]

Play behind Carrick? He plays that deep you'll be needing a centerback

Alongside him, whatever. He needs someone to do the majority of the defensive work, he's not the man for that job.

 

[CnutOfAllCnuts]

What kind of non-commital answer is that. Give your opinion. Would it work, or not?

How on earth am I supposed to know? - I left my magic crystal ball at home this morning.

 

[Mozza]

Alongside him, whatever. He needs someone to do the majority of the defensive work, he's not the man for that job.

He does the majority of the defensive work at Tottenham, why does that have to change at United?

 

[CnutOfAllCnuts]

Alongside him, whatever. He needs someone to do the majority of the defensive work, he's not the man for that job.

Have you gone to the same black 'n white school of life as Devilish?

 

[Transfer United Till I Die]

He does the majority of the defensive work at Tottenham, why does that have to change at United?

Im getting Deja Vu. NO. HE. DID. NOT. He is not a defensive midfielder. he is a deep lying playmaker. Christ on a bike Mozza. Get with the programme.

 

[Fortitude]

There are plenty of them around, but the trend these days seem to be that most team plays with a holding midfielder. These trends come and go, like 15 years ago it was very populare to play with wing-backs. That trend didn't "eradicate" full-backs and wingers.

Whatever you want to call it. Top notch 'midfielders' as you call them are few and far between in the modern game, that is a fact. If you want to argue this pointless issue further, provide any names comparable to what I put up for 5yrs ago. You can't, because they do not exist in the modern game.

We will get done over like Liverpool did in the CL final when they tried to play Gerrard and Alsono (a pairing with more defensive abilty than Carrick and Scholes) if we play quality sides with Carrick next to Scholes in a 4-4-2. Not only that, Scholes won't be able to get forward like he should either.

 

[Fortitude]

Its not about the ineffiencies of there midfield, they can only cover so much ground, if the winger doesn't track the oppositions fullback no one is going to

But that's a wingers only job. He should not have to come in field and help out the central pair. Any team that uses a 4-4-2 with a deep-lying playmaker in it does not use 2wingers. This is a fact. We would be breaking the mould to do so and we would pay heavily for it.

 

[CnutOfAllCnuts]

Whatever you want to call it. Top notch 'midfielders' as you call them are few and far between in the modern game, that is a fact. If you want to argue this pointless issue further, provide any names comparable to what I put up for 5yrs ago. You can't, because they do not exist in the modern game.

We will get done over like Liverpool did in the CL final when they tried to play Gerrard and Alsono (a pairing with more defensive abilty than Carrick and Scholes) if we play quality sides with Carrick next to Scholes in a 4-4-2. Not only that, Scholes won't be able to get forward like he should either.

Top notch FOOTBALLERS are few and far between.

Who knows whether we will get done over with a midfield pairing of Scholes and Carrick. Maybe, maybe not. It will depends on the rest of the team, not Scholes and Carrick only.

What I do know, is that a midfield partnership of Scholes and Carrick is far more promising than a midfield pairing of Giggs and O'Shea. I.e. an improvement on last season. Happy days.

 

[CnutOfAllCnuts]

But that's a wingers only job. He should not have to come in field and help out the central pair.

Of course they should.

Have you ever played football?

 

[Mozza]

Im getting Deja Vu. NO. HE. DID. NOT. He is not a defensive midfielder. he is a deep lying playmaker. Christ on a bike Mozza. Get with the programme.

He did though, it wasn't Jenas doing it, nor Lennon, Davids did a bit but he was so far wide he couldn't be helping Carrick too much, who else could it be?

 

[Fortitude]

Have you gone to the same black 'n white school of life as Devilish?

If you can't argue your points you should leave this alone. It's not about black and white it is simple common sense. Carrick is not a 'box-to-box' player, there are no lines to muddy. Carrick is a very good playmaker, outside of that, his game is average. If we're going to use him correctly he will need defensive support. That is the bare bones of it. You don't put a square peg in a round hole. Which is what you seem to be suggesting, along with Mozza.

At no point have I done a 'Devilish'

 

[Guvnorgaz]

I wouldnt get to into arguing about whether he is a cm or dm cos he aint fecking signed yet!

 

[Fortitude]

Top notch FOOTBALLERS are few and far between.

Who knows whether we will get done over with a midfield pairing of Scholes and Carrick. Maybe, maybe not. It will depends on the rest of the team, not Scholes and Carrick only.

What I do know, is that a midfield partnership of Scholes and Carrick is far more promising than a midfield pairing of Giggs and O'Shea. I.e. an improvement on last season. Happy days.

Well I hope people don't act surprised if we get turned over with that pairing. It's going to help us going forward, it will put a strain on us going backwards. Top class sides will relish playing against that pairing.

 

[Mozza]

But that's a wingers only job. He should not have to come in field and help out the central pair. Any team that uses a 4-4-2 with a deep-lying playmaker in it does not use 2wingers. This is a fact. We would be breaking the mould to do so and we would pay heavily for it.

Not realy, nothing wrong with wingers tucking in and helping out, and they have to do it against sides that play narrower formations, the fullbacks don't need the help the midfield does, no point in standing around doing nothing when the oppositions got the ball

 

[CnutOfAllCnuts]

If you can't argue your points you should leave this alone. It's not about black and white it is simple common sense. Carrick is not a 'box-to-box' player, there are no lines to muddy. Carrick is a very good playmaker, outside of that, his game is average. If we're going to use him correctly he will need defensive support. That is the bare bones of it. You don't put a square peg in a round hole. Which is what you seem to be suggesting, along with Mozza.

At no point have I done a 'Devilish'

Any player needs "defensive support". The defending starts up-front, and we are blessed there, especially with Rooney, who puts a hell of a lot of pressure on the ball up front.

You are right, you shouldn't put a square peg in a round hole. Neither should you pigeon hole footballers as much as you and the likes of Devilish seem to like to do.

 

[Guvnorgaz]

And we still havent signed him so dont all go getting your kecks in a twist

 

[Fortitude]

Of course they should.

Have you ever played football?

So you're saying a winger should; attack, defend against his full back as well as abandon the wing to help out an inept CM, thus letting his full back run free?

Righto.

And what would me playing football have to do with the basic rules of being a winger?

 

[djemba's arse]

Here's a thought: A player can adapt. Even though it might not say 'DM' next to Carrick's name on football manager, that does not mean he's unable to do defensive work. He played as the most defensive midfielder for England against Equador, and was man of the match.

He's a bloody good midfielder, and will strengthen our side.

 

[CnutOfAllCnuts]

Well I hope people don't act surprised if we get turned over with that pairing. It's going to help us going forward, it will put a strain on us going backwards. Top class sides will relish playing against that pairing.

It wouldn't put more strain on us defensively than the Giggs - O'Shea pairing.

 

[Fortitude]

Not realy, nothing wrong with wingers tucking in and helping out, and they have to do it against sides that play narrower formations, the fullbacks don't need the help the midfield does, no point in standing around doing nothing when the oppositions got the ball

It's really not the same as having a dedicated extra CM helping out all game. Your wingers would be dead after half a season of doing that. Their main job is to attack, stretch the play by creating width, their third job is track their wide man. In those 4-4-2's where there is 3cm's the 'wide CM' never stretchs the pitch and he barely gets forward compared to a winger.

 

[thoward]

when i look at how arse signed rosicky for 8mil, i just think that carrick for 17mil is bad business (despite the fact that we may not be paying all of it in one go).. or even duff for 5 mil?

United need Carrick more than Arsenal need Rosicky. Im not sure exactly wherell he play at Arsenal, he mightny necessarily even be a regular.

 

[Mozza]

It's really not the same as having a dedicated extra CM helping out all game. Your wingers would be dead after half a season of doing that. Their main job is to attack, stretch the play by creating width, their third job is track their wide man. In those 4-4-2's where there is 3cm's the 'wide CM' never stretchs the pitch and he barely gets forward compared to a winger.

We've always played that way and non of our wingers have been dead towards the end of the season

 

[CnutOfAllCnuts]

So you're saying a winger should; attack, defend against his full back as well as abandon the wing to help out an inept CM, thus letting his full back run free?

Righto.

And what would me playing football have to do with the basic rules of being a winger?

Yes, a winger has to be prepared to do that, especially in games when the opposition play with three centre midfielders against our two.

It's not a question of letting his fullback run free - he won't do that if there is good sideways movement in the midfield four hwen the opposition are in possession.

Having played football would have given you a better idea of the game. I have always said that to fully understand and appreciate the details of the game, you will have to have played to a certain level, i.e. not park football or school football.

Which I suspect you have not...?

 

[Guvnorgaz]

Irrelevant argument because he isnt our fecking player you transfer muppets

 

[Fortitude]

Any player needs "defensive support". The defending starts up-front, and we are blessed there, especially with Rooney, who puts a hell of a lot of pressure on the ball up front.

You are right, you shouldn't put a square peg in a round hole. Neither should you pigeon hole footballers as much as you and the likes of Devilish seem to like to do.

By pointing out the fact, and it is a fact that there are more department to midfield then their were even 8yrs ago, I'm pidgeon-holing footballers?

Give over.

Your notion of total football where the midfielders can all play like Robbo, is a thing of the past. We have to adapt or like I said, breed our own through the academy.

 

[thoward]

Won't that give him bad blisters?

 

[CnutOfAllCnuts]

and it is a fact that there are more department to midfield then their were even 8yrs ago

What utter rubbish

 

[Fortitude]

We've always played that way and non of our wingers have been dead towards the end of the season

Having the likes of Butt, Ince, Robbo, Keane infield is not the same as having Carrick and Scholes. The times the wingers needed to tuck in for the top lot was minimal. It would be an every game thing with Scholes-Carrick in the middle.

 

[CnutOfAllCnuts]

Finally someone spotted it

 

[Fortitude]

What utter rubbish

If you want to contest it simply name me some top rate box-to-boxers of this current era like I asked you to do about 20posts ago...

Conversely, why is it that there are so many top notch DM's out there now that were not around yrs ago. Answer these points and I'll concede you're right if you can't, then stop going on about it.

 

[tilo]

Fortitude everything you have said has been spot on! Fight the madness!

 

[VanNistelrater]

Here's a perfect example of what happens when you play a naturally offensive minded midfield next to a deep-lying playmaker in a 4-4-2. The rape of the dippers in the CL final first half. Any side worth its weight will maul a pairing like that. It was only stabilised when they put Hamann on, a DM, and gave him the defensive work and Alonso the ball to actually use.

You can't play a deep-lyuing playmaker in a 4-4-2 unless you put another defensively minded midfielder on the wing. Examples of this are Spurs with davids on the left wing last season and Seedorf doing the same at Milan. We play with two wingers, not 3 midfielders in a 4-4-2. We'd get feckin raped with Scholes-Carrick in the middle.

Very good post, I think you're right. Something worth thinking about for sure.