UK General Election - 12th December 2019 | Con 365, Lab 203, LD 11, SNP 48, Other 23 - Tory Majority of 80

[rcoobc]

The problem is not 'leftism' it's the perception of 'leftism' that people have because of years and years of relentless propaganda. Take the policies away from the Party and they're very popular

Most of Labour's policies barely scratched left of centre, Nationalisation of a few core public services possibly being furthest Left but hey, we're the country of the NHS, which is almost universally popular amongst the electorate.

A small raise in the top rate of tax and a small raise in corporation tax to bring both broadly in-line with other similar-sized European economies would barely even register.

Fact is, your average Joe Punchclock isn't voting on the viability of Labour's policies, they're usually single issue voters or in the absence of any other influences just blindly following the propaganda

I think Labour made a big mistake underestimating the self-employed vote. It's not just the rich that got hit by their tax rises

https://www.moneyobserver.com/news/...ll-labours-policies-do-your-personal-finances

Every small business owner would end up paying more tax. Lots more tax.

https://www.companybug.com/how-many-limited-companies-are-there-in-the-uk/

There were around 3.4 million sole proprietorships (60%) in the UK at the start of 2017, 414,000 partnerships (7%), and 1.9 million limited companies (33%).

Out of the 1.9 million actively trading limited companies in the UK (2017), around 990,000 were employers, whereas 891,000 companies were not. Therefore, just over half of limited companies are employers and just under a half are one man band businesses.

It's not just the rich that was going to be hit.

 

[esmufc07]

Even his bio tickled me, it’s kind of Partidge-eque

Labour Party Candidate for Leeds East. I am not currently an MP, as Parliament has been dissolved until after the General Election.

Unnecessary pedantry

Rumour has it he got everyone in his office a Terry’s chocolate orange.

 

[Fiskey]

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Really interesting, thanks for sharing.

 

[Cheesy]

It's such an eyeball tickler that people STILL need to be reminded that Labour lost that election.

When it comes to people's lives, a loss is most definitely not a fecking win.

And it's not as if their 2017 defeat was that of a resurgent party getting just over 300 seats but only just losing out to the winning party: they were still comfortably behind a distinctly average Tory Party. The only reason people were even mildly jubilant about that election was because expectations were just fecking dire at the start.

Don't get me wrong - I think Labour did plenty of good in 2017. They genuinely energised a lot of younger voters to an extent no party had for decades. Corbyn put forward a decent platform and managed to finally portray himself as somewhat electable. The party used social media to great effect.

But all of that was ultimately only worth anything if the party actually built on it and used it to get elected. In the end they failed resoundingly, and in the history books 2017 will go down as a fairly poor result for a Labour Party who'd lowered expectations so much that a Tory government was somehow still seen as a success...even though those on the left argue Tory governments are repugnant and harm people on a daily basis. Just wasted time with a leadership that were deeply unpopular to the point where Corbyn breaking even popularity wise was perceived as some great success.

 

[Ubik]

How many times do people like Burgon need to be reminded Labour lost in 2017?

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Can't believe they're still trotting out the 5m votes thing when they lost half that amount in a paltry couple of years IN OPPOSITION. He mentioned the Iraq war earlier today, apropos of nothing.

 

[Fiskey]

Even Burgos’s bio tickled me, it’s kind of Partidge-eque

Labour Party Candidate for Leeds East. I am not currently an MP, as Parliament has been dissolved until after the General Election.

Unnecessary pedantry

Haha, so true.

 

[CassiusClaymore]

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Good read but no suprise. Got to work on my "ok boomer" game for the foreseeable and wait for them all to die.

 

[Cheesy]

Can't wait for Burgon to be punted into the history books.

Just so fecking shit. Astounding someone can lack self-awareness to the point where he's not embarrassed at the mere suggestion of putting himself forward for leader. Astounding someone can (rightfully) point out how Tory governments harm people on a daily basis and yet celebrate a result which brought a Tory minority government and allowed them to continue harming people on a daily fecking basis.

 

[Redlambs]

And it's not as if their 2017 defeat was that of a resurgent party getting just over 300 seats but only just losing out to the winning party: they were still comfortably behind a distinctly average Tory Party. The only reason people were even mildly jubilant about that election was because expectations were just fecking dire at the start.

Don't get me wrong - I think Labour did plenty of good in 2017. They genuinely energised a lot of younger voters to an extent no party had for decades. Corbyn put forward a decent platform and managed to finally portray himself as somewhat electable. The party used social media to great effect.

But all of that was ultimately only worth anything if the party actually built on it and used it to get elected. In the end they failed resoundingly, and in the history books 2017 will go down as a fairly poor result for a Labour Party who'd lowered expectations so much that a Tory government was somehow still seen as a success...even though those on the left argue Tory governments are repugnant and harm people on a daily basis. Just wasted time with a leadership that were deeply unpopular to the point where Corbyn breaking even popularity wise was perceived as some great success.

100%

But it will always fall on death ears.

 

[CassiusClaymore]

Can someone tell if the the Diane Abbott shoe thing was real or not. Genuinely came up earlier tonight as comic relief.

 

[DOTA]

Can someone tell if the the Diane Abbott shoe thing was real or not. Genuinely came up earlier tonight as comic relief.

I don't know but I made the mistake of reading the twitter comments on it, never having fully subjected myself to witnessing the abuse Abbot gets before. People are vile.

 

[Shane88]

 

[ThierryHenry]

Nothing on Question Time tonight? I just want Helen Lewis (and Stephen Bush) to run the country.

Can someone tell if the the Diane Abbott shoe thing was real or not. Genuinely came up earlier tonight as comic relief.

It looks very real in the original photo, but there was another picture showing her with much more normal looking shoes - it must have just been some kind of trick of how she was facing.

 

[Lentwood]

I think Labour made a big mistake underestimating the self-employed vote. It's not just the rich that got hit by their tax rises

https://www.moneyobserver.com/news/...ll-labours-policies-do-your-personal-finances

Every small business owner would end up paying more tax. Lots more tax.

https://www.companybug.com/how-many-limited-companies-are-there-in-the-uk/


It's not just the rich that was going to be hit.

I haven’t done much reading on the subject but is that not just because people are taking the piss out of the contracting system?

I think Labour made a big mistake underestimating the self-employed vote. It's not just the rich that got hit by their tax rises

https://www.moneyobserver.com/news/...ll-labours-policies-do-your-personal-finances

Every small business owner would end up paying more tax. Lots more tax.

https://www.companybug.com/how-many-limited-companies-are-there-in-the-uk/


It's not just the rich that was going to be hit.

I’m no expert on tax but haven’t both Parties proposed changes in the system to stop contractors abusing the system by setting themselves up as limited companies and paying themselves dividends?

I know changes are due to be made next year regardless because I’ve a friend who does exactly this working as a contractor for a bank

 

[Yagami]

My brother was thinking of coming back to live in Manchester this year after a decade plus of living in Korea.

He's staying in Seoul now.

 

[Redlambs]

I haven’t done much reading on the subject but is that not just because people are taking the piss out of the contracting system?


I’m no expert on tax but haven’t both Parties proposed changes in the system to stop contractors abusing the system by setting themselves up as limited companies and paying themselves dividends?

I know changes are due to be made next year regardless because I’ve a friend who does exactly this working as a contractor for a bank

Labour's problem is they were going after everyone as if we all did this. I'm 100% above board, always have been, it's not right I could have been targeted alongside the feckers abusing the system.

 

[Lebowski]

Good post. Now do me a favour and try to see what I'm saying, if I can word it right that is

I'm not advocating for a return to new labour and all that, you guys just assume that's the go to because it's all left and right. That's literally all you lot care about right now, and that's not without reason.

However, regardless of brexit, Labour is split and Corbyn has failed to hold them together. Ed failed too. How much longer do you allow these failures before change is needed? You are we shouldn't lost what Corbyn has built, but we kind of have tonight no? This is an absolute humiliation. I said the other day we need a stronger speaker who can convey his core beliefs better, people kept saying we shouldn't have to have that, I said tonight that they should consider looking to move in slightly if only to claw back the floaters, I have been told if the right won't move why should we? (And also that I should vote Tory ). There basically seems no ideas or desire to even contemplating thought on anything, and when suggested we do, you guys instantly go to worst case scenario as if I'm suggesting you give up all you believe just because I'm telling you, and I am telling you, that this will keep happening over and fecking over until Labour get their act together.

What gets me is you keep saying the centre is dead, but what about all those floating voters. Of which I'm one? I'm not a true centrist at all, but I'm also not represented. It's flat out wrong to suggest everyone is now left or right and that's it, it's doing exactly what Labour have clearly done all through this campaign, completely missread the situation.

We need to stop these excuses, pick ourselves up and the Labour party need to find some way to pull itself together behind a real leader. And for god's sake, stop ignoring everyone and everything else and step outside the bubble and realise there's a lot more to this than brexit.


If I'm wrong to think all that, so be it. But at the end of the day, we keep losing and now extremely badly. I can't see how staying exactly as we are is going to change anything. Not in today's climate that's for sure.

Prepare yourself to receive the well thought-out reply I promised to you in the early hours of yesterday morning my friend!

It seems handy to start on the areas we agree on.

- For several reasons, lots of undecided voters who have voted for Labour in the past decided to either stay home, or vote for another party
- Corbyn's unpopularity was clearly a contributing factor for a lot of voters
- For this reason and in the broader sense, Corbyn's leadership has failed
- Due to the above, the party need a new leader and a new approach

Now, what the new approach should be is where I think we will differ.

Bearing in mind that I think we agree that virtually any socialist leader would get the same level of disgusting treatment by the media as Corbyn has endured, there seem to me to be two broad categorisations of plans for electoral success.

1) Britain's Obama
Put a photogenic, confident and slick centre-left leader in charge who is media-friendly and isn't perceived as economically radical enough to spook corporations or receive the non-stop character assassinations that plagued Corbyn. Probably somebody who is centre-right economically but socially progressive. The sort of person the typical middle England Tory could imagine voting for. Accept that you will have no real grassroots ground game as Momentum will be minimised, but try and mitigate that the same way the Tories do - attract weathly donors and spend money on targeted ads, and make use of a non-hostile media to get your message across. Play up your modern, progressive credentials and show that you will curb the worst inequalities of our economic system. Focus group your approach to be as simple, safe and palatable as possible. Appeal to whatever pollsters decide the modern equivalent of the 'Essex Man' or the 'Mondeo Man' are and win over enough voters 'floating voters' like you so that marginal south east seats turn red. Don't concern yourself with trying to reconnect old white working class men from the mining belt with politics, they're too dissilusioned / racist / myopic to make it worth the effort, and your economic policies are going to have friendlier edges but maintain the economic status quo, so won't benefit their communities anyway. Just hope that after Brexit, some of the red wall / 'mining-belt' seats Labour lost last night will return to you, mainly because 'who else are they going to vote for anyway?'.

2) Feel the Bern
Put another democratic socialist leader in charge. Use what you have learned from Corbyn's campaigns to shape your media strategy. Don't waste time complaining to the referee that institutions don't give you a fair shake, be proudly and aggressively anti-establishment in your entire approach. Make it absolutely clear what you are for (workers), and what (or more accurately who) you are against (rentiers). Counteract institutional bias and opposition by operating outside it. Use social media, local reporters and the resurgent socialist publications to get your message out instead of legacy media. Reshape Momentum based on what we learned yesterday, with far more effort going into local grassroots activism and engagement in the red wall / mining belt than in cities. With the Remain/Leave issue put to bed, make a conscious effort to show these communities that you can represent them and that electoral politics can improve their lives and rebuild their communities. Build connections between Labour's new metropolitan heartlands (London, Manchester, Liverpool, Leeds etc) and their 'old' mining belt heartlands and represent exploited workers from cities and towns alike. Create networks of local campaigns to show that the Labour party is a constant activist presence in working class communities, not just some volunteers who appear every 5 years and ask for/expect your vote. Expand the solidarity we're seeing develop in inner city working poor with movements like Acorn, Debtor's Unions and J4G, which will become even more prescient after 5 more years of Tory rule. Create a real 'labour' party of workers fighting against rentiers with a new definition of what it means to be working class. Expect to lose a few seats in middle England and wealthy parts of cities to either a nationalist far-right Tory party, or to the centre-right Lib Dems, but trust that the support of workers in a post-capitalist society facing climate crisis, falling living standards, post-Brexit economic slump is enough.

Of course there are many shades of grey in the middle of these two positions, but roughly speaking I think that's what the two poles look like.

It sounds like you would prefer something closer to approach number 1, which I just fundamentally think can't work in 2019. In the era of what Mark Blyth calls 'global Trumpism', a right and left version of populism is the new normal for the foreseeable future in my opinion.

It wouldn't have worked in this election, as evidenced by the type of seats labour lost (mining belt) and gained (cities). I don't think that mining belt communities turned away from Labour because of policy, or because Corbyn wasn't media-savvy or charming enough. They did it because they felt ignored for 40 years, patronised by Labour over Brexit, and sick of globalisation totally changing the demographic makeup of their community with none of the prosperity going to them. Ultimately, I think these places are largely devoid of any hope that electoral politics could restore their communities. 'Vote Leave', 'Take Back Control' and 'Get Brexit Done' has more successfully resonated with them than a progressive message of 'let's all be nicer to each other'.

I think you need a similarly simple and evocative message to win them back. Class war. Your lives are going to get better because the lives of the top 5% are going to get worse.

Finally, you mentioned that due to the scale of yesterday's defeat, we surely have to abandon Corbyn's gains (to some extent). I think that would be suicidal. Think of the few things that Labour has going for it at the moment. Increased support in inner cities, (mostly) popular policy platforms on issues that aren't Brexit, and most significantly, Momentum. The future for the Labour party has to build on these successes, not abandon them. I have seen some pundits (Alan Johnson, David Blunkett etc) blame Momentum for the result, but I have no idea why. Momentum did everything they could and you can see the results in the seats where they were. The idea that we should move forward by having a row with the tens of thousands of people that were prepared to go out campaigning for Labour in the wet and the cold seems fantastical and is a surefire way to destroy any chance of winning an election any time soon, in my opinion.

Lessons need to be learned and our approach needs to change, but let's not hack away at the few good things we have left at the moment.

Anyway, I will be thinking and writing about this election a lot over the coming weeks, but I think that's enough of my screen-vomit for now.

Feel free to let me know your thoughts, as I am keen to hear whether to a floating voter, this sounds vaguely sensible or like mad socialist ramblings.

 

[SteveJ]

Regulars on this thread will know I was very against Corbyn. But also hated Boris even more. Through the continual arguements put forward by the likes of @Pexbo, @Ultimate Grib, @CassiusClaymore @Fluctuation0161 @SteveJ and several others, I came to realise that nothing could be worse than voting Tory and BJ. So thanks for your persistence and wisdom.

I’ve spent past week convincing perhaps as many as 25 people in my constituency to put aside personal interests and vote Labour. And just voted Labour myself. Ours could be a close call so hoping I made a difference.

Well done, mate. And thank you.

 

[Damien]

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[rcoobc]

I haven’t done much reading on the subject but is that not just because people are taking the piss out of the contracting system?


I’m no expert on tax but haven’t both Parties proposed changes in the system to stop contractors abusing the system by setting themselves up as limited companies and paying themselves dividends?

I know changes are due to be made next year regardless because I’ve a friend who does exactly this working as a contractor for a bank

Maybe. But there are lots of people doing this because... just run a small business. Which is themselves.

Anyway.

 

[Full bodied red]

100%

But it will always fall on death ears.

You see that rain.....That's the tears of the left falling unheard and unloved....

 

[Damien]

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[Boycott]

Prepare yourself to receive the well thought-out reply I promised to you in the early hours of yesterday morning my friend!

It seems handy to start on the areas we agree on.

- For several reasons, lots of undecided voters who have voted for Labour in the past decided to either stay home, or vote for another party
- Corbyn's unpopularity was clearly a contributing factor for a lot of voters
- For this reason and in the broader sense, Corbyn's leadership has failed
- Due to the above, the party need a new leader and a new approach

Now, what the new approach should be is where I think we will differ.

Bearing in mind that I think we agree that virtually any socialist leader would get the same level of disgusting treatment by the media as Corbyn has endured, there seem to me to be two broad categorisations of plans for electoral success.

1) Britain's Obama
Put a photogenic, confident and slick centre-left leader in charge who is media-friendly and isn't perceived as economically radical enough to spook corporations or receive the non-stop character assassinations that plagued Corbyn. Probably somebody who is centre-right economically but socially progressive. The sort of person the typical middle England Tory could imagine voting for. Accept that you will have no real grassroots ground game as Momentum will be minimised, but try and mitigate that the same way the Tories do - attract weathly donors and spend money on targeted ads, and make use of a non-hostile media to get your message across. Play up your modern, progressive credentials and show that you will curb the worst inequalities of our economic system. Focus group your approach to be as simple, safe and palatable as possible. Appeal to whatever pollsters decide the modern equivalent of the 'Essex Man' or the 'Mondeo Man' are and win over enough voters 'floating voters' like you so that marginal south east seats turn red. Don't concern yourself with trying to reconnect old white working class men from the mining belt with politics, they're too dissilusioned / racist / myopic to make it worth the effort, and your economic policies are going to have friendlier edges but maintain the economic status quo, so won't benefit their communities anyway. Just hope that after Brexit, some of the red wall / 'mining-belt' seats Labour lost last night will return to you, mainly because 'who else are they going to vote for anyway?'.

2) Feel the Bern
Put another democratic socialist leader in charge. Use what you have learned from Corbyn's campaigns to shape your media strategy. Don't waste time complaining to the referee that institutions don't give you a fair shake, be proudly and aggressively anti-establishment in your entire approach. Make it absolutely clear what you are for (workers), and what (or more accurately who) you are against (rentiers). Counteract institutional bias and opposition by operating outside it. Use social media, local reporters and the resurgent socialist publications to get your message out instead of legacy media. Reshape Momentum based on what we learned yesterday, with far more effort going into local grassroots activism and engagement in the red wall / mining belt than in cities. With the Remain/Leave issue put to bed, make a conscious effort to show these communities that you can represent them and that electoral politics can improve their lives and rebuild their communities. Build connections between Labour's new metropolitan heartlands (London, Manchester, Liverpool, Leeds etc) and their 'old' mining belt heartlands and represent exploited workers from cities and towns alike. Create networks of local campaigns to show that the Labour party is a constant activist presence in working class communities, not just some volunteers who appear every 5 years and ask for/expect your vote. Expand the solidarity we're seeing develop in inner city working poor with movements like Acorn, Debtor's Unions and J4G, which will become even more prescient after 5 more years of Tory rule. Create a real 'labour' party of workers fighting against rentiers with a new definition of what it means to be working class. Expect to lose a few seats in middle England and wealthy parts of cities to either a nationalist far-right Tory party, or to the centre-right Lib Dems, but trust that the support of workers in a post-capitalist society facing climate crisis, falling living standards, post-Brexit economic slump is enough.

Of course there are many shades of grey in the middle of these two positions, but roughly speaking I think that's what the two poles look like.

It sounds like you would prefer something closer to approach number 1, which I just fundamentally think can't work in 2019. In the era of what Mark Blyth calls 'global Trumpism', a right and left version of populism is the new normal for the foreseeable future in my opinion.

It wouldn't have worked in this election, as evidenced by the type of seats labour lost (mining belt) and gained (cities). I don't think that mining belt communities turned away from Labour because of policy, or because Corbyn wasn't media-savvy or charming enough. They did it because they felt ignored for 40 years, patronised by Labour over Brexit, and sick of globalisation totally changing the demographic makeup of their community with none of the prosperity going to them. Ultimately, I think these places are largely devoid of any hope that electoral politics could restore their communities. 'Vote Leave', 'Take Back Control' and 'Get Brexit Done' has more successfully resonated with them than a progressive message of 'let's all be nicer to each other'.

I think you need a similarly simple and evocative message to win them back. Class war. Your lives are going to get better because the lives of the top 5% are going to get worse.

Finally, you mentioned that due to the scale of yesterday's defeat, we surely have to abandon Corbyn's gains (to some extent). I think that would be suicidal. Think of the few things that Labour has going for it at the moment. Increased support in inner cities, (mostly) popular policy platforms on issues that aren't Brexit, and most significantly, Momentum. The future for the Labour party has to build on these successes, not abandon them. I have seen some pundits (Alan Johnson, David Blunkett etc) blame Momentum for the result, but I have no idea why. Momentum did everything they could and you can see the results in the seats where they were. The idea that we should move forward by having a row with the tens of thousands of people that were prepared to go out campaigning for Labour in the wet and the cold seems fantastical and is a surefire way to destroy any chance of winning an election any time soon, in my opinion.

Lessons need to be learned and our approach needs to change, but let's not hack away at the few good things we have left at the moment.

Anyway, I will be thinking and writing about this election a lot over the coming weeks, but I think that's enough of my screen-vomit for now.

Feel free to let me know your thoughts, as I am keen to hear whether to a floating voter, this sounds vaguely sensible or like mad socialist ramblings.

I believe there are going to be a lot of people totally fatigued by an us vs them class war and just want a steady center-left labour party again. A party that isn't fighting internally or seemingly hijacked by fringe groups. Or where certain union bosses have too much power. I can understand the whole pendulum idea that if the right wing goes further right then the only way to balance it is to swing back to the left. But there has not been a proper old school left wing party elected in the UK for almost half a century, and that one didn't last long either.

The individual items of Corbyn's manifesto polled well but bunch them together and it was too much too quickly and people like it or not are conditioned to call bullshit on how you pay for it. If he focused on a few principles only --- the NHS, Education and Infrastructure investment (not full on nationalising the railways) + a the 2017 position on Brexit he'd have probably done better. To what degree I don't know but it wouldn't have been such a wipeout.

Instead a government sponsored broadband which polled well but was such a logistical headache just gave way to the idea it was economically illiterate. A tactically better leader would have realised there are some things you can only get away proposing once you're in government. So much of what he was proposing should have been put on the sidelines and left for a second term. Because a first term is always a referendum on your key campaign promises. He was promising too much.

Boris Johnson on the other hand promised one thing - get brexit done.

The fact that the brexit party and Farage don't think Boris's version of brexit is brexit is besides the point.

Labour tried to placate both sides with a proposal neither wanted. If you want brexit you had to back the tories. If you want to immediately revoke A50 and remain the lib dems were your party. Labour leavers didn't trust Labour and Remainers didn't trust Corbyn.

Then there was the typical Tory "we'll cut taxes" "we needed austerity because the debt of what the last labour government left behind but now we're on track" etc etc. The kind of economic message that they always spout against any Labour leader and manifesto.

A center-left party that just focuses on the bread and butter social democratic policies Labour always does is the only way to get elected. Don't add anything on top until you get into power. What Corbyn has done well is highlight the urgency of public services being dismantled, stuck up for the NHS, made the plight of homelessness and desperation of universal credit much more paramount than before. And he's resonated with left-wing advocates around the globe. But the fact of the matter the very people he was brought in to try and protect ended up turning on him. The working class labour strongholds who didn't give a damn about public ownership of utilities and solidarity.

 

[sammsky1]

Well done, mate. And thank you.

My constituentcy remained Labour, just, so was a small victory in an otherwise miserable night!

 

[SteveJ]

Interesting thread:

I did around 120 hours of canvassing in London, Bedford and Milton Keynes. I didn’t expect this result but here’s how I can make sense of it from what I encountered on the doorstep...

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[Boycott]

I think one point that might be worth value is with all the chaos in Westminster in the four years before yesterday, with three prime ministers, one recent general election vote of no confidence to both party leaders, brexit being delayed and opposed, cabinet ministers being replaced, shadow cabinet ministers being replaced, MPs defecting from their parties, a new party being set up, established MPs being expelled etc, a new speaker; there has been one constant. The Leader of the Opposition.

Some might have looked at it and thought either Corbyn is the one worth keeping or it's about time he got hounded out. I think in 2017 he managed to put on a lively campaign that resonated with people and hence Labour gained a lot of seats they lost in 2015 but in 2019 he became stale. And with all the right-wing character assassinations a lot of people stuck the boot in.

 

[DOTA]

Interesting thread:

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White English men over 50 and not frail are by far the people who scare me the most. They're the people who half way through a friendly chat in the pub glance at my handbag and say 'you're not gay are you?' and I pretend to be straight and quickly wrap up the conversation.

There is no other demographic that my experiences have made me prejudiced against.

 

[Skills]

Labour's problem is they were going after everyone as if we all did this. I'm 100% above board, always have been, it's not right I could have been targeted alongside the feckers abusing the system.

I don't think abusing the tax loophole is the biggest issue with contractors. For the extra pay, they're giving up paid leave, sick benefits, pension contributions, job security.

The biggest problem is that its resulted in big companies, offloading huge packages of work to contractors and using it to cut their own headcounts down to bare minimum.

 

[SteveJ]

White English men over 50 and not frail are by far the people who scare me the most. They're the people who half way through a friendly chat in the pub glance at my handbag and say 'you're not gay are you?' and I pretend to be straight and quickly wrap up the conversation.

Jeez

 

[jeff_goldblum]

Interesting thread:

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I think this cuts to a lot of hard truths about the electorate in this country. Rejection of British pride/exceptionalism is absolutely unacceptable to a group of voters who turn out in numbers on polling day and whose geographical spread makes them disproportionately influential under FPTP. The most effective right wing media attacks on Corbyn, Milliband and even Remain as a political position were attacks on their perceived lack of pride in Britishness above all else.

 

[SteveJ]

I think this cuts to a lot of hard truths about the electorate in this country. Rejection of British pride/exceptionalism is absolutely unacceptable to a group of voters who turn out in numbers on polling day and whose geographical spread makes them disproportionately influential under FPTP. The most effective right wing media attacks on Corbyn, Milliband and even Remain as a political position were attacks on their perceived lack of pride in Britishness above all else.

IMO, being patriotic is like me supporting the Glazers just because they happen to own United.

 

[2mufc0]

I think this cuts to a lot of hard truths about the electorate in this country. Rejection of British pride/exceptionalism is absolutely unacceptable to a group of voters who turn out in numbers on polling day and whose geographical spread makes them disproportionately influential under FPTP. The most effective right wing media attacks on Corbyn, Milliband and even Remain as a political position were attacks on their perceived lack of pride in Britishness above all else.

How would you fix this though? Seen a lot of people say this but nothing to resolve it.

 

[DOTA]

IMO, being patriotic is like me supporting the Glazers just because they happen to own United.

When I was about seven I was excited that my parents had bought a SHARP product.

 

[Fluctuation0161]

That says nothing of the sort.

Of course it does. Austerity led to changes in the benefit system for sick people. This is a direct symptom of austerity.

Tests designed to define sick people as "fit for work". Stopping any sickness benefit, reducing cost, "saving money".

Have you not been paying attention?
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...ill-disability-esa-fit-for-work-a8881001.html

https://www.theguardian.com/society...-for-work-appeal-seven-months-after-his-death

 

[Fluctuation0161]

If you want bury your head in the sand, ignore the stark reality in front of your eyes, dispute any data that logically follows then so be it, that's on you. Whatever helps you sleep at night after contributing to the deaths of thousands of people.

I think he is opting for the head in the sand approach.

 

[SteveJ]

When I was about seven I was excited that my parents had bought a SHARP product.

I acknowledge that there are plenty of things for Brits to feel proud of but, personally, I can't get over the historical, ingrained class system.

 

[sammsky1]

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[Fluctuation0161]

Anyone know what the Redcafe equivalent forum/discussion board is for Labour party enthusiasts? I want to join.

@Pexbo @Ultimate Grib @owlo @sun_tzu @Redlambs @Fluctuation0161

Not sure. Maybe create one?

 

[Fluctuation0161]

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Jesus.

 

[Fluctuation0161]

There's also the FPTP factor to consider - I'd imagine a lot of younger voters would either be excessively concentrated around student cities or metropolitan hubs which favour Labour anyway.

Exactly.

Also, generally speaking, people in Cities see the poverty much closer up than those in rural areas. They are more likely to understand massive scale of the problem and vote Labour imo.