Passing - Players or bad coaching

[RedStarUnited]

Apart from the first half vs City, every game I watch of United I end up complaining about how bad we are at passing the ball. Generally speaking these symptoms happen nearly every game;

• Too many touches .- Players taking 3/4/5 touches only to make a pass they should have made with their second touch. Maguire is one of the biggest culprits of this.
• Momentum Killing - This happens when we put together 3 or 4 passes and then on he 5th, the ball goes all the way back so we have to start again. What makes this bad is theres usually an open pass forward that gets ignored. A Jesse Lingard special.
• Lacking Direction/Power - This is when a player who is on the ball makes a pass to a teammate that forces them to either change direction or wait for the ball because it's not in their path. I feel our players don't care how the receiver gets the ball as long as it gets there. This ties to the momentum killing point above. Luke Shaw loves this.

Now the question I have is, is this because the players are not good enough or because they are badly coached. Im leaning towards the coach because I have seen teams worse than us pass and move with much more purpose than us. Whats the Cafe opinion?

 

[Majima]

Poor coaching. We're a very stagnant team to watch if the opposing team isn't giving us acres of space. Either we've got the world's stupidest players (unlikely) or the coaching isn't up to standard.

 

[Xaviesta]

Your passing issues are all the more strange as Michael Carrick is on the coaching staff and he was a pretty passer of the ball.

 

[JPRouve]

Your passing issues are all the more strange as Michael Carrick is on the coaching staff and he was a pretty passer of the ball.

Being good at something doesn't make you good at teaching it.

 

[Xaviesta]

Being good at something doesn't make you good at teaching it.

That's true.

 

[Massive Spanner]

Being good at something doesn't make you good at teaching it.

I learnt that the hard way in Knife Throwing Class.

 

[Owngoalscorer]

Maguire and Lindelhof are a distinct improvement on what Smalling / Jones used to be like but still.. there are one or two encouraging signs but i'd agree with much of the OP.
The problem seems to stem from a lack of imagination - we just move the ball across the backline and head up the wings which is completely predictable: so much so that the passes to Obi Wan for example often leave him in a dead end having to pass back and start the whole rigmarole again.. then there's the "hospital" passing ie passing to an to a teammate who is completely surrounded by oppo players... and gets robbed pretty much immediately. We really need a bit of variety where players take on opposition players drawing them in to create space for others - then the others of course have to move into space something that is at a premium against teams that set up a low block like wolves. and something that the much maligned Lingard used to be decent at (the running)

 

[Roughseas]

It’s the players. The game vs Wolves was an improvement on previous performances in terms of passing, but many still hesitated when a forward pass was what was required. There was a game at the end of last year, when Rashford came back into form iirc, when everybody was high on confidence and executing these passes. Same confidence shown when they had the famous streak at the beginning of Ole’s reign. If we add a skilful player to the team, someone like Bruno, it will elevate confidence again and make things click.

 

[Rozay]

Coaching is a bigger issue than technical for me, but the technical deficiencies are also there.

The movement and symbiosis of a team is central to a good passing team. When it’s all said and done, most players at this level can play a 5/10 yard pass well enough from a technical standpoint. However, I don’t even think you need a ball to practise the systems needed. It’s all about rhythm and movement. I wouldn’t be surprised to see Ajax kids all on a training ground moving around in patterns without a ball, synchronised in their motion. Add a football in there later and the team will know what to do.

 

[gerdm07]

The "Lacking Direction/Power" or weight is what I see each match and is frustrating. I think it's a combination of player's ability and coaching. A good example is when we circulate the ball around the back and with midfielders. Too often the pass does not make it easy for the receiver to face forward with the right touch. Some of this is coaching. On the other hand, it's quite obvious Pogba is the only midfielder with the skills to consistently make good simple passes and good creative passes. We need more talent in midfield.

 

[Gio]

Structurally, the team isn't set up in a way that is conducive to building into advanced positions with short intricate play. The players do not appear to be drilled to know how to create those situations where they can overload with possession football in the attacking third. They do not seem to have the habits in place and that partly may be their limitations and instincts as footballers but owes a lot to how the team is worked on a day-to-day basis on the training ground.

 

[el3mel]

We're pretty poor in both departments. We have stupid players but at the same time our coaches aren't doing anything to even cover for such deficiencies.

 

[Andycoleno9]

It is about coaching. Not just in training. Coach selects players and style. Nobody is forcing coach to select players who lack technique. This is not about Ole. I am talking in general now.
Coach in pre-season can replace players who can't play by his rules. Ole did it with Lukaku for example. He could have bought other full back instead AWB, he could have bought other winger instead of James. He could have bought midfielder instead playing with McT.
He chose to play in this setup. He rates some other traits more than pure technique. I respect that. Klopp rates pace. Guardiola technique. Simeone wants fighters.
Ole wants to have hard working team. I don't know is it the best way to go in football.

At the end we shall see was Ole right. Personally if i am the coach, i would always make technique and skill as priority. But what the hell i know about coaching

 

[Web of Bissaka]

Both

 

[Forevergiggs1]

Everything is too rushed. If we had better technical players then it wouldn't be such an issue. Someone should remind Ole that when the opposing team has set itself up defensively then the counter attacking option Is off the table but we seem to be playing the same way countering as we do trying to break defences down which is why we lose the ball so much. We don't have the patience / ability to keep possession until a gap opens up.

 

[FootyGirl88]

Coaching, when you see teams like Sheff Utd doing it without problems you cant tell me its a personnel issue.

 

[MonkeysMagic]

100% coaching.

Poor coaching has been the hallmark of our decline last few years, particularly in the opposition half. Statistically our passing accuracy isn't too bad but when isolated to passes in the opposition half, we lag behind most top level teams. I dont see this scenario changing with 'better' players unless the coaching is replaced by better coaches!

 

[Leftback99]

Mainly players. Our lack of quality in the 3 centre midfield positions being the main problem.

I think people also overrate other teams after seeing highlights rather than watching full games and scrutinising them in the same way. Wolves were poor in possession last night despite supposedly far better coaching, Sheff Utd have the 3rd lowest possession % in the league.

 

[KevinJoh]

Both, and a few more.

First of all there is lack of quality. Our players often can't pass the simple pass. It is often very slow, or behind the player. Usually you will see that player on receiving end needs to stop and wait for the ball, instead of running on it. It is not up to coaching as those are basic stuff, and players learn that in early academy years in even low level clubs. Sunday league players would get bashing if they pass like that. I can't say I have any explanation why this is happening, as I am sure coaches don't want that, and I am sure players can execute that in training 100 of 100 times.

What I think is the reason for those bad passes is the lack of confidence. I think our players are under big pressure that they can't cope with. It is weird, but when we are playing games we are expected to win, our passing game is below average or bad. If we score somehow, it get much better. Like we are more relaxed and start to play without pressure. Like we are overthinking before that. On the other hand, when we are goal down we tend to drop down tools, or in some situation play for pride and than we are getting better. From my point of view it has something to do with low confidence and pressure. Lukaku talked about it a little bit, like complaining that he and Pogba have been scapegoats. I guess, when you are thinking like that it will be shown on the pitch as every bad pass or first touch will send you thinking about that and not thinking about the game and what you should do on the pitch.

One more thing I have noticed is that we are looking for something special all the time. Like, you have easy pass, but no, we will go for shooting from distance or some long pass. Like it is importan to them to show that they are good enough to play for United, so simple is not enough. Of course they are making mistakes in that situation. Pereira is the best example.

Coaching also. I wouldn't say it is passing, but it is movement and patterns. Beside counters, I am not sure that I have noticed any patterns in our movements. Therefore passing is not instinctive and trained, also can't be fast, with first touch. No, as you don't know where your teammates will be when you are in some position, you need to check out first and therefore you need to make one or two touches while you are checking this. This is obvious in every part of the field, especially when we are in possession and have rival in low block. It is slow cause there is no movement so midfielders and defenders are just passing around while expecting something to happen in front of them. This is all up to the coaching and I don't see much of improvement in that area. Too static, and therefore too boring. Too static also means less options for the man with the ball that causes mistakes or sideways and backward passes.

Also, I would say that our players technical ability is not on the highest level. Beside a few players, a lot of our players need two touches to take control of the ball and that of course cause that they can't pass with first or second touch.

 

[tjb]

Its completely the players. Same thing for 6 years now under different managers. Off the ball movement comes with offensive awareness. We had Louis Van Gaal, one of the greatest managers in football history at creating spaces through movement and passing. He came to united and tried to implement his football and it was still slow and lacking movement. Then Mourinho came in, bought Pogba, and for a while, when Pogba played deeper in midfield, the ball was moving quickly and we were consistently playing at a decent tempo. Movement and passing is all about quality. Being able to move it quickly isn't something a manager can do for you while on the pitch or in training. A player has to have confidence in his ability and the quality to actually make the right passes and move into the right spaces. Fred, for example, lacks the quality to make good passes consistently, particularly when he first came to the club; so now he dallies a lot more than before.

In addition to this, we also lack and have been lacking a capable no.10 that can help us link our midfield with our attack. Considering that we tend to play with two holding midfielders ( we can't even switch to a 3 man midfield as we do not have enough quality in the position to try thiss), it is important for the no.10 to help the other attacker receive the ball. We have never truly had a good and consistent no.10 since sir alex left. In addition to this, our centre backs have usually been poor technically and our full back positions are only now being filled capably. We have not had a good passing game in the same way that Burnley hasn't had one.

 

[tjb]

Both, and a few more.

First of all there is lack of quality. Our players often can't pass the simple pass. It is often very slow, or behind the player. Usually you will see that player on receiving end needs to stop and wait for the ball, instead of running on it. It is not up to coaching as those are basic stuff, and players learn that in early academy years in even low level clubs. Sunday league players would get bashing if they pass like that. I can't say I have any explanation why this is happening, as I am sure coaches don't want that, and I am sure players can execute that in training 100 of 100 times.

What I think is the reason for those bad passes is the lack of confidence. I think our players are under big pressure that they can't cope with. It is weird, but when we are playing games we are expected to win, our passing game is below average or bad. If we score somehow, it get much better. Like we are more relaxed and start to play without pressure. Like we are overthinking before that. On the other hand, when we are goal down we tend to drop down tools, or in some situation play for pride and than we are getting better. From my point of view it has something to do with low confidence and pressure. Lukaku talked about it a little bit, like complaining that he and Pogba have been scapegoats. I guess, when you are thinking like that it will be shown on the pitch as every bad pass or first touch will send you thinking about that and not thinking about the game and what you should do on the pitch.

One more thing I have noticed is that we are looking for something special all the time. Like, you have easy pass, but no, we will go for shooting from distance or some long pass. Like it is importan to them to show that they are good enough to play for United, so simple is not enough. Of course they are making mistakes in that situation. Pereira is the best example.

Coaching also. I wouldn't say it is passing, but it is movement and patterns. Beside counters, I am not sure that I have noticed any patterns in our movements. Therefore passing is not instinctive and trained, also can't be fast, with first touch. No, as you don't know where your teammates will be when you are in some position, you need to check out first and therefore you need to make one or two touches while you are checking this. This is obvious in every part of the field, especially when we are in possession and have rival in low block. It is slow cause there is no movement so midfielders and defenders are just passing around while expecting something to happen in front of them. This is all up to the coaching and I don't see much of improvement in that area. Too static, and therefore too boring. Too static also means less options for the man with the ball that causes mistakes or sideways and backward passes.

Also, I would say that our players technical ability is not on the highest level. Beside a few players, a lot of our players need two touches to take control of the ball and that of course cause that they can't pass with first or second touch.

I agree. I don't understand why we are not direct anymore. These day's its almost as if we are trying to pass the ball into the net despite the fact that we are not actually good at passing. It's the one gripe I have with Ole. We have very physical midfielders and full backs. We can afford to scrap in midfield and attack as we tend to win a lot of aerial duels and tackles. I think we would benefit from having a more direct game, having our keeper kick the ball out of defence so that we can win a midfield scrap instead of trying to pass around organizaed premier league teams when this is what we struggle with the most. With Fernandes coming in, we should have enough creativity to be able to create effectively from these won battles ( having lingard and pereira means that our link to attack is not very strong).

 

[clarkydaz]

lower clubs come to Old Trafford and outplay us

 

[Ludens the Red]

Definitely coaching.This is quite clear by the fact that on a regular basis I have watched the following teams pass the ball better than us this season .
Brentford
Leeds
Norwich
Sheffield United
Brighton
West Brom

 

[thepolice123]

Its really down to coaching.

The main issues are the structure of the team and a lack of coordinated movements.

We have some players who aren't the best in tight spaces (which is normal) but are asked to receive the ball in situations where there are either a lack of options or players positioned too far apart. The football system is supposed to solve this problem so that they don't get shown up while getting the best out of them. Unfortunately for us we don't have such system.

 

[Dr. Dwayne]

By the time they are senior players at top clubs, players should know how to pass a ball. I see our players making terrible passes at least half of the time.

By that I mean passes that roll up your leg when you receive it because the passer is imparting backspin on the ball when they release it. You'd think they'd know better and try to use topspin instead.

 

[Wolfmother]

If you cant pass the ball as a senior elite player there isn’t a coach in the world that can help you.

 

[Slik]

These things you mentioned have been evidently under Mourinho also and even Van Gaal to an extent since all we did wasn’t pass backwards and sideways so we kept the ball.
So if it’s a coaching problem, that means Van Gaal, mourinho, ole all can’t coach players to pass the ball? Or it could just be the obvious, some of our players lack imagination with their passing and very awful and enjoy back passing since it’s the end easier option.

 

[Velvet Revolver]

Apart from the first half vs City, every game I watch of United I end up complaining about how bad we are at passing the ball. Generally speaking these symptoms happen nearly every game;

• Too many touches .- Players taking 3/4/5 touches only to make a pass they should have made with their second touch. Maguire is one of the biggest culprits of this.
• Momentum Killing - This happens when we put together 3 or 4 passes and then on he 5th, the ball goes all the way back so we have to start again. What makes this bad is theres usually an open pass forward that gets ignored. A Jesse Lingard special.
• Lacking Direction/Power - This is when a player who is on the ball makes a pass to a teammate that forces them to either change direction or wait for the ball because it's not in their path. I feel our players don't care how the receiver gets the ball as long as it gets there. This ties to the momentum killing point above. Luke Shaw loves this.

Now the question I have is, is this because the players are not good enough or because they are badly coached. Im leaning towards the coach because I have seen teams worse than us pass and move with much more purpose than us. Whats the Cafe opinion?

what you mention is all coaching and to some extent the players confidence in achieving the said action. Look at sheffield united, a team with average players but their passing is quite good.

 

[Velvet Revolver]

These things you mentioned have been evidently under Mourinho also and even Van Gaal to an extent since all we did wasn’t pass backwards and sideways so we kept the ball.
So if it’s a coaching problem, that means Van Gaal, mourinho, ole all can’t coach players to pass the ball? Or it could just be the obvious, some of our players lack imagination with their passing and very awful and enjoy back passing since it’s the end easier option.

Under LVG we did quite a lot of passing albeit sideways because possession! Under Jose it was counter attacking mentality so passing was not something his teams are known for (I think). In fact even under SAF our passing game was quite simple plus we had scholes so...

 

[jamesjimmybyrondean]

I'd blame the coaching. I don't know if it's just me but there are several times where we play and the pitch just seems so wide for us especially when we face a well drilled team.

We also have difficulties playing out from the back when the opponent plays a high press. I was watching an analysis on Marco Rose (Google Marco rose leftback football if interested) and their build up play and style of play was so good. It didn't require any sort of creative midfielder but just players that can do the basic passing. You could easily see there was something going on in training. The players knew their next move, constantly finding spac, moving together, it just made passing easier.

I agree completely that we lack imagination and I think that is down to the players, you can see the difference when Mata plays and when Lingard plays.

If people think it's the players, let's not forget Oles first game at Cardiff where we passed like prime Barca

 

[Class of 63]

Yep i'm sure our highly rated coaches encourage the players to regularly pass the ball to the opposition - it's all part of a cunning plan you see. Patience needed.

 

[James Ward]

It's a bit of both, our midfielders are shocking. Our forwards just stand still. Our full backs are solid at defending and brutal at going forward. Ole also has Rashford and James too far forward every match.

It's just a cluster f*** of everything really.

 

[Aouer-United]

I feel like our forward need to find space to exploit in behind the defence and call for the ball. Greenwood, , Andreas, Martial and James should call for more when they move around. Only Mata and Rashford were calling for ball consistent and move around to exploit space

For example, Shaw overlap but didn't call for ball either and just stand there. James didn't call for the ball where AWB could have played in for him.

They need to call for ball more if they spot space to exploit which will result in us more attacking and forcing them to sit deep.

Our team has a lack of understanding in exploiting space causing us to be very static in attacking. AWB was very hesitant to run when he has too much wide space ahead of him and go to the far post to cross/cutback. Rashford should have gone up left far post for cutback if he was surrounded by defenders, instead, he's trying to dribbling trying to cut in, he has attempted many time like this and it hasn't worked out so well for him.

I could go on more but that's enough for me.

 

[Listar]

Definitely coaching.This is quite clear by the fact that on a regular basis I have watched the following teams pass the ball better than us this season .
Brentford
Leeds
Norwich
Sheffield United
Brighton
West Brom

Norwich? The same Norwich that gets thrashed twice by United this season? I guess good at passing the ball is kinda useless then seeing that they are bottom of the table..

 

[berbatrick]

It's been a problem since 2012, and relates to team shape (coaching), number of touches (coaching/talent) and actual raw passing talent from midfield (zero without Pogba).

 

[Ludens the Red]

Norwich? The same Norwich that gets thrashed twice by United this season? I guess good at passing the ball is kinda useless then seeing that they are bottom of the table..

We’re obviously better than all of those teams. That was sort of the point. We have far far better individuals than those teams. The point is about passing. Thankfully passing doesn’t isn’t the be and end all of football and the ability to win games which is just as well as were not very good at it.

 

[Listar]

We’re obviously better than all of those teams. That was sort of the point. We have far far better individuals than those teams. The point is about passing. Thankfully passing doesn’t isn’t the be and end all of football and the ability to win games which is just as well as were not very good at it.

I am not sure we are that bad at passing. We are able to pass out from the back no problems, compared to when we were with Mourinho, and have you seen Arsenal? We are good at retaining possession against weaker teams, showing we can keep the ball with our passing.

The issues we have are:
- finishing chances, as can be seen by how many clear cut chances we made every game that we missed; and
- ability to create good attacking patterns and penetration against low block (where our slow passing and slow decision making comes in)

 

[SteveW]

Defintely Ole and the coaches fault that some of our players are bad passers. They were simply brilliant at it under previous managers.

 

[meamth]

Let me simplify this to everyone:

Ole out Brigade: "Coaching, because they are clueless bunch. My grandma is more charismatic than Carrick."

Neutrals: "It's a bit of both, we clearly need a better manager, but Ole has done a decent job so far".

Ole in Brigade: "Ed Woodward needs to go".

 

[Ludens the Red]

I am not sure we are that bad at passing. We are able to pass out from the back no problems, compared to when we were with Mourinho, and have you seen Arsenal? We are good at retaining possession against weaker teams, showing we can keep the ball with our passing.

The issues we have are:
- finishing chances, as can be seen by how many clear cut chances we made every game that we missed; and
- ability to create good attacking patterns and penetration against low block (where our slow passing and slow decision making comes in)

We pass from the back more but it’s not very good. Maguire and Lindelof spend years on the ball to make simple passes.
And yeah arsenal are awful at it, mainly because they have players like sokratis who think they’re Xavi.
We keep possession well in the same way we did under van Gaal, it’s just sort of defensive short non ambitious possession with no penetration. We’re not as bad going forward as we were under Lvg but we’re worse defensively.
but yeah the main issue with our passing is unlocking the low block but that comes with coaching good movement, angles, passes etc, we don’t do that. If we did there wouldn’t be any ‘slow decision making’ because itd come natural to the players.