Transgender rights discussion

[Dr. Dwayne]

I'm honestly confused on issues here. Tried to google up but nothing satisfactory.

What's the difference between Transgender women vs women?
Do anyone not women or transgender women menstruate?

I just googled transgender women and get " A trans woman is a woman who was assigned male at birth." which frankly doesn't help understand the issue.

In general, people are born with either male or female reproductive organs and are classified as such due to certain societal norms and humanity's unique need to label and order things. There are exceptions to this but we won't get into that here.

Occasionally, some males feel more like females deep inside, or vice-versa, and these people sometimes undertake a number of different of approaches to live a happier life as the man or woman they feel like rather than the man or woman they appear to be on the outside (and have been told they are by the rest of us for longer than they care to remember). These people are considered transgender. Those who started with male reproductive organs transition to become transgender women and those who start with female reproductive organs transition to become transgender men. Although transitioning is a long and involved process, as far as I know, transgenders do not magically adopt the reproductive functions of the men and women they have transitioned into.

Now the issue, as I understand it, is that some people who were born with female reproductive organs and are not inclined to be transgender feel threatened by transgender women but exactly why they do is unclear as their reasons do not appear to stand up to scrutiny and, as a result, it seems like plain old discrimination.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Now the issue, as I understand it, is that some people who were born with female reproductive organs and are not inclined to be transgender feel threatened by transgender women but exactly why they do is unclear as their reasons do not appear to stand up to scrutiny and, as a result, it seems like plain old discrimination.

Thanks Dwazza. It's like what I mostly thought it would be.

I think my confusion originates from transgender vs transsexual definitions.

When you say transgender women, I presume it is women trans-gendering (for lack of better word I know) into men, but still retain female traits (a la menstruation). So people like Rowling are concerned that trans-gendered women menstruate?

 

[Tribec]

Having read her piece, I still can’t understand why she is so strongly invested in this topic. The crux of her argument seems to be that biological sex is being eroded, a consequence being that ‘men’ will flock en masse to women’s toilets to abuse women now that toilets aren’t ‘sexxed’. Seems sensationalist to me.

What relevance is the fact that she has faced abuse? Is anyone actually trying to diminish the ‘lived reality’ of biological women? Is anyone stating that biological sex should be abolished?

I would be interested to see the ‘detransitioning’ figures she references, though. To each one’s own regarding transition, sure, but it mustn’t be easy - or fast - to transition. A proper assessment must occur from the requisite specialists. I agree with her on that front.

I mentioned in a previous post that a second study has qualified the results with regards the suicidal thoughts/attempts among trans youth quite recently, prior to that those against trans rights and leading this campaign had quoted a UK study of a couple of years back. With regards the detransition rate, they like to refer to a study which was based in the Netherlands, which was flawed in many ways. I know that the those that carried out the survey decided that if someone stopped being interviewed or responding to the survey they were considered to have detransitioned. The results suggested that up to 80% may have detransitioned, but from my own knowledge is that very few people do detransition if they seek medical intervention.

People may choose not to go down that route and that's fine, and may be for many different reasons, they may never start to transition. However, that shouldn't stop them exploring who they are.

As for the treatment side of things, the last figures I saw which were only released a month or so ago suggested that waiting times for the first appointment only at the GID clinics were on average 28 months long. This isn't some really quick fix thing, to get to surgery if that is indeed what you want can take anything up to 4 to 5 years minimum at the moment, that's going to be considerably longer post covid.

 

[Giant Midget]

Thanks Dwazza. It's like what I mostly thought it would be.

I think my confusion originates from transgender vs transsexual definitions.

When you say transgender women, I presume it is women trans-gendering (for lack of better word I know) into men, but still retain female traits (a la menstruation). So people like Rowling are concerned that trans-gendered women menstruate?

A transgender woman is someone who was born with the male sex that transitions to female, not the other way around.

 

[NWRed]

Social media is enraged over these tweets -

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Some observations from me:
- Some of the content is definitely transphobic and raising these issues during the pride month is absolutely moronic on her behalf. I do find it interesting though Rowling got a lot more rope than what a lot of other celebrities would have gotten given she has expressed similar thoughts before. I think that is a direct result of her books actually being popular in parts of the exact liberal left culture that in other circumstances would have "cancelled" a person after their first transgression.

- I do see a tendency of leftist SM circle to label any women a TERP if they even express a single contrary opinion to party online on trans issues. In extremist cases it may seem justified but when you have cases like ContraPoints it definitely seems too reactionary. For example, the stance on "genitalia preference/ Not sure if this is a settled debated with in LGBTQ+ circles or not but I do see many people/activists claim that having preference of genitalia is transphobic, as in if you are lesbian and don't want to have sex with a transwoman who still has a penis then that is transphobic. Personally, I see denying of people's choice in these terms as oppressive as forcing LGBTQ+ folks to conform to heteronormative behaviour.

Telling people the type of person they're attracted to is prejudicial, absolutely mental.

What I really don't understand about trans rights activists is their problem isn't about being allowed to do what they want, wear what they want, sleep with who they want be treated equally in terms of opportunities, it's that they seem to want to force other people to think what they want them to think. If alls you care about is what other people think of you then I'm sorry to break it to you but you have mental health issues.

 

[Tribec]

Telling people the type of person they're attracted to is prejudicial, absolutely mental.

What I really don't understand about trans rights activists is their problem isn't about being allowed to do what they want, wear what they want, sleep with who they want be treated equally in terms of opportunities, it's that they seem to want to force other people to think what they want them to think. If alls you care about is what other people think of you then I'm sorry to break it to you but you have mental health issues.

Equally the trans rights activists wonder why people think that they have every right to deny them rights that they are entitled to and campaign to remove any legal protections that they have.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

I just read Rowling's piece and to be honest, while this topic is fairly new to me, I still cannot see the reason for the backlash. From what I can see, the dominant school of thought these days, appears to be that 'you can be whatever you want to be' or what you innately feel to be. And that gender is as much as a social construct as a scientific one, or at least that it is something that can be amended should a person genuinely feel the need to. And I don't see any issue with that. It validates the feeling many people have about themselves, which is a positive thing. At the same time, if someone genuinely believes in the terminology of man and woman to be as is traditionally defined - the biology we are given at birth, to me, that's a different belief system and I don't see why one can't be allowed to feel that way.

Essentially, as long as one isn't discriminatory and hurtful in their behaviour, and treats everybody with equal compassion and judges them based on their merits and not gender/appearance, I don't see the reason to revolt. As far as I can see Rowling holds the second view I mentioned but doesn't really intend to harm anyone.

I've often seen Transgender introduced in forms /declarations here as well as the third gender after Male and Female. That appears to make a distinction between female and Transgender female right there. In all your counties they are seen as the same as women?

Also, I'm not sure her argument about washrooms is a terrible one. I can imagine that being a fear for a lot of women.

Again, not really sure where I stand on this. But like I said, I can't see the reason for outrage.

 

[NWRed]

Equally the trans rights activists wonder why people think that they have every right to deny them rights that they are entitled to and campaign to remove any legal protections that they have.

How is a person not being attracted to someone because of their genitalia denying them their rights?

 

[Tribec]

I just read Rowling's piece and to be honest, while this topic is fairly new to me, I still cannot see the reason for the backlash. From what I can see, the dominant school of thought these days, appears to be that 'you can be whatever you want to be' or what you innately feel to be. And that gender is as much as a social construct as a scientific one, or at least that it is something that can be amended should a person genuinely feel the need to. And I don't see any issue with that. It validates the feeling many people have about themselves, which is a positive thing. At the same time, if someone genuinely believes in the terminology of man and woman to be as is traditionally defined - the biology we are given at birth, to me, that's a different belief system and I don't see why one can't be allowed to feel that way.

Essentially, as long as one isn't discriminatory and hurtful in their behaviour, and treats everybody with equal compassion and judges them based on their merits and not gender/appearance, I don't see the reason to revolt. As far as I can see Rowling holds the second view I mentioned but doesn't really intend to harm anyone.

I've often seen Transgender introduced in forms /declarations here as well as the third gender after Male and Female. That appears to make a distinction between female and Transgender female right there. In all your counties they are seen as the same as women?

Also, I'm not sure her argument about washrooms is a terrible one. I can imagine that being a fear for a lot of women.

Again, not really sure where I stand on this. But like I said, I can't see the reason for outrage.

With regards the bit emboldened it's such a none issue what so ever. The claim is that self identification will lead to sexual predators entering female toilets to assault women. What's going to stop a predator from entering a female toilet to do just that right now? Nothing at all, it's a scare tactic created to cause panic.

As for the rest of your comment, I think most people would be happy to accept that people have differing view points, but when the consultation looking at updating the Gender Recognition Act of 2004 went live a couple or so years ago, those against Trans rights activated and since they are the majority and are supported by and large by rich, right wing religious groups from the US who helped get the PR right have managed to create a state of fear and panic against trans women mainly. They seem totally oblivious to trans men. We've had constant news paper articles attacking trans people and the community as well as appearing on national television and radio without trans voices to either discuss or argue the other side of the case. It was only about 2 weeks ago that for the first time in 2 or 3 years we didn't have a attack on the trans community by the national press on a Sunday morning.

Whilst both sides don't come out of this looking great, if those against trans rights hadn't been so coordinated and hadn't attacked from the start with hurtful lies and attacks on individuals and groups I think the trans community would have responded equally as politely, but once one side got nasty the other responded and it's just escalated to where we are today.

 

[Tribec]

How is a person not being attracted to someone because of their genitalia denying them their rights?

The response wasn't to that quote, but to "What I really don't understand about trans rights activists is their problem isn't about being allowed to do what they want, wear what they want, sleep with who they want be treated equally in terms of opportunities, it's that they seem to want to force other people to think what they want them to think. If alls you care about is what other people think of you then I'm sorry to break it to you but you have mental health issues."

Those against trans rights seem to want to tell trans women that they are not women, that they are shouldn't be afforded rights as women etc. Who some is attracted to and isn't is down to individuals to work out.

 

[dumbo]

What I really don't understand about trans rights activists is their problem... that they seem to want to force other people to think what they want them to think.

You're thinking of Derren Brown mate. Totally different thing.

 

[NWRed]

The response wasn't to that quote, but to "What I really don't understand about trans rights activists is their problem isn't about being allowed to do what they want, wear what they want, sleep with who they want be treated equally in terms of opportunities, it's that they seem to want to force other people to think what they want them to think. If alls you care about is what other people think of you then I'm sorry to break it to you but you have mental health issues."

Those against trans rights seem to want to tell trans women that they are not women, that they are shouldn't be afforded rights as women etc. Who some is attracted to and isn't is down to individuals to work out.

If what you care about isn't whether you can live where you want, with whom you want, dress how you want, sleep with who you want or do what you want, it's what pronoun people use when they address you, then it's time to ask yourself why.

My point is, if you can live your life as a man or woman if you choose, why does it matter that someone else believes if you're a man or a woman?

 

[altodevil]

See trans folk, how they want to be other gender and that. Doesn't that mean they are proponents of gender stereotyping? Otherwise why else would they feel they are the other gender.

If so, I find that fascinating given that weirdos have been saying men and women are the same for years. Does this mean if we reach full equality trans folk will cease to be?

 

[Rudie]

How is a person not being attracted to someone because of their genitalia denying them their rights?

You're confusing the trans rights activists for ALL trans people. You're using the extremes to tarnish a whole group of people, just like Rowling's is doing. You do know I could walk into any female space and nobody would batter an eyelid? There'd be masculine biological Women being called out before I'd be mentioned.

Rowling's view isn't balanced, she's coming across as bigoted because she's not only attacking all trans people but is also failing to mention the abuse that radical feminists give to trans people... "Shagging you must be like shagging a gaping wound!". This was said to a trans Woman who is quite rationale. Or her own snide remarks in the books she writes, most recently a crime one where the protagonist makes fun of a trans Woman. There's no debate or compromise to be had when both sides just scream obscenities at each other. Myself, like most trans Women don't need the hassle and can quite simply vanish into society and guess what? Rowling's would never know that there were trans Women using the same toilets as her.

 

[Tribec]

If what you care about isn't whether you can live where you want, with whom you want, dress how you want, or sleep with who you want or do what you want, it's what pronoun people use when they address you, then it's time to ask yourself why.

Why? it's treating others with respect and dignity and not being discriminatory, however a faction of society doesn't wish to be like that to trans people.

 

[Rudie]

See trans folk, how they want to be other gender and that. Doesn't that mean they are proponents of gender stereotyping? Otherwise why else would they feel they are the other gender.

If so, I find that fascinating given that weirdos have been saying men and women are the same for years. Does this mean if we reach full equality trans folk will cease to be?

See, your understanding of dysphoria is very primitive. For myself and many others, we have a sense of our own bodies and our own sexuality without the gender stereotypes. Many trans Men for example will start binding at an age when they start to exhibit breast development. It's far deeper than mere gender stereotypes.

 

[Conor]

I just read Rowling's piece and to be honest, while this topic is fairly new to me, I still cannot see the reason for the backlash. From what I can see, the dominant school of thought these days, appears to be that 'you can be whatever you want to be' or what you innately feel to be. And that gender is as much as a social construct as a scientific one, or at least that it is something that can be amended should a person genuinely feel the need to. And I don't see any issue with that. It validates the feeling many people have about themselves, which is a positive thing. At the same time, if someone genuinely believes in the terminology of man and woman to be as is traditionally defined - the biology we are given at birth, to me, that's a different belief system and I don't see why one can't be allowed to feel that way.

Essentially, as long as one isn't discriminatory and hurtful in their behaviour, and treats everybody with equal compassion and judges them based on their merits and not gender/appearance, I don't see the reason to revolt. As far as I can see Rowling holds the second view I mentioned but doesn't really intend to harm anyone.

I've often seen Transgender introduced in forms /declarations here as well as the third gender after Male and Female. That appears to make a distinction between female and Transgender female right there. In all your counties they are seen as the same as women?

Also, I'm not sure her argument about washrooms is a terrible one. I can imagine that being a fear for a lot of women.

Again, not really sure where I stand on this. But like I said, I can't see the reason for outrage.

As far as I can see, the very point of her initial tweet was questioning why something used the term 'person', when it's clear that the reason it was used was for inclusion purposes. So she can't claim to hold those views while making comments like she did.

 

[NWRed]

Why? it's treating others with respect and dignity and not being discriminatory, however a faction of society doesn't wish to be like that to trans people.

How is it discriminatory? Discrimination is being denied opportunities or having your actions treated differently.

Again, my point is, if you believe you are a woman, and can live your life as a woman, why does it matter if someone else believes you are a woman? It seems to me that gay rights was focussed on being allowed to live their lives as they wanted, with "we don't give a feck what you think" attitude, whereas trans rights activists seems to only care about what others think, at least that's the impression that is given of the movement by the most vocal amongst it.

 

[Rudie]

How is it discriminatory? Discrimination is being denied opportunities or having your actions treated differently.

Again, my point is, if you believe you are a woman, and can live your life as a woman, why does it matter if someone else believes you are a woman? It seems to me that gay rights was focussed on being allowed to live their lives as they wanted, with "we don't give a feck what you think" attitude, whereas trans rights seems to only care about what others think, at least that's the impression that is given of the movement by the most vocal amongst it.

Yeah, why don't trans Women just shut up and live their lives as Women... Exactly what they'd like to be able to do.

 

[NWRed]

Telling people the type of person they're attracted to is prejudicial, absolutely mental.

What I really don't understand about trans rights activists is their problem isn't about being allowed to do what they want, wear what they want, sleep with who they want be treated equally in terms of opportunities, it's that they seem to want to force other people to think what they want them to think. If alls you care about is what other people think of you then I'm sorry to break it to you but you have mental health issues.

You're confusing the trans rights activists for ALL trans people. You're using the extremes to tarnish a whole group of people, just like Rowling's is doing. You do know I could walk into any female space and nobody would batter an eyelid? There'd be masculine biological Women being called out before I'd be mentioned.

Rowling's view isn't balanced, she's coming across as bigoted because she's not only attacking all trans people but is also failing to mention the abuse that radical feminists give to trans people... "Shagging you must be like shagging a gaping wound!". This was said to a trans Woman who is quite rationale. There's no debate or compromise to be had when both sides just scream obscenities at each other. Myself, like most trans Women don't need the hassle and can quite simply vanish into society and guess what? Rowling's would never know that there were trans Women using the same toilets as her.

I'm not confusing anything, if you read my post I specifically said trans rights activists. I know that the vast majority of trans people just want to live their lives how they want.

The abuse you mention is clearly appalling and I'm in no position to offer an opinion on the positions of the trans community or the feminist community on these issues but if the online discussion was focussed on things like that abuse rather than semantics then, in my opinion, they would have far more support.

 

[dumbo]

I managed four paragraphs of her blog piece and stopped because it was getting me down. It's quite a miserable attempt to dig herself out.

 

[NWRed]

Yeah, why don't trans Women just shut up and live their lives as Women... Exactly what they'd like to be able to do.

What I want to know is how are you being stopped from doing that by someone not believing you are a woman or by using the wrong pronoun.

Just to give you my personal experience of this, I'm a teacher and in the last form group I had, whom I had taken for 5 years, there was a trans man and no matter how much I tried I always, without fail, referred to him as her, it was automatic and I just couldn't help it. One parents evening I got myself into such a twist because I couldn't stop using the pronoun her that I just had to stop the meeting and apologise, the parent didn't seem offended and we ended up sat there apologising to each other endlessly. I never treated him differently, never thought of him differently, but even now I have to make a conscious effort to write him instead of her. Why is that disprespecful or wrong?

Edit: In the end I just ended up referring to him by his name at all times because I just couldn't stop myself from saying her.

 

[Rudie]

What I want to know is how are you being stopped from doing that by someone not believing you are a woman or by using the wrong pronoun.

Just to give you my personal experience of this, I'm a teacher and in the last form group I had, whom I had taken for 5 years, there was a trans man and no matter how much I tried I always, without fail, referred to him as her, it was automatic and I just couldn't help it. One parents evening I got myself into such a twist because I couldn't stop using the pronoun her that I just had to stop the meeting and apologise, the parent didn't seem offended and we ended up sat there apologising to each other endlessly. I never treated him differently, never thought of him differently, but even now I have to make a conscious effort to write him instead of her. Why is that disprespecful or wrong?

I've stated where I stand on the pronouns debate in a previous thread and I suggest you read it as your understanding of trans people from a teacher's perspective is worrying and is clearly cherry picked from Twitter extremists. https://www.redcafe.net/threads/transgender.452657/

Secondly, if it was as easy as "why don't you just live your lives as Women and stop complaining" it would be a non issue, for trans people the journey is very personal and they'd love nothing more than to just be left to get on with it. But when something as simple as going to the toilet is questioned then it becomes an issue. https://womansplaceuk.org/toilets/
Have you ever been to an event? Out for the evening? Gone somewhere on holiday and needed the toilet? Of course you have.

Try this for me, next time you do try not using any public restrooms, this means your only toilet is that you use at home. If you've ever come close to wetting yourself over something so trivial then you'd understand the plight many trans Women have. To be within inches of degrading yourself in front of friends, loved ones. To be in floods of tears because you're bent over double trying to keep it in. Is that living a life of normality to you?

And don't even get me started on going without food because the dysphoria prohibits you from ever leaving your house. No quick trips to the supermarket. You'd rather starve than face reality. Try that one too, going without food for a good week, seeing what scraps you can scavenge.

Better yet, stick a dress on and go out, see what sort of looks and comments you get. Until you've done all of these then you know nothing of what it's like to be a trans Woman and have no place to tell them to just "live with it, because the gays did" a statement which also shows a worrying lack of understanding of the whole LGBTQ community as a whole.

 

[Rudie]

Edit: In the end I just ended up referring to him by his name at all times because I just couldn't stop myself from saying her.

I think you really need to read a blog I wrote about my colleagues reactions to myself coming out https://candifluffy.wixsite.com/about/post/stepping-out-at-work
It seems like you were the one making more of a deal of it then the person themselves which probably led to their discomfort around you. Most trans people, like myself, couldn't give a rats ass what you think about them.

 

[NWRed]

I've stated where I stand on the pronouns debate in a previous thread and I suggest you read it as your understanding of trans people from a teacher's perspective is worrying and is clearly cherry picked from Twitter extremists. https://www.redcafe.net/threads/transgender.452657/

Secondly, if it was as easy as "why don't you just live your lives as Women and stop complaining" it would be a non issue, for trans people the journey is very personal and they'd love nothing more than to just be left to get on with it. But when something as simple as going to the toilet is questioned then it becomes an issue. https://womansplaceuk.org/toilets/
Have you ever been to an event? Out for the evening? Gone somewhere on holiday and needed the toilet? Of course you have.

Try this for me, next time you do try not using any public restrooms, this means your only toilet is that you use at home. If you've ever come close to wetting yourself over something so trivial then you'd understand the plight many trans Women have. To be within inches of degrading yourself in front of friends, loved ones. To be in floods of tears because you're bent over double trying to keep it in. Is that living a life of normality to you?

And don't even get me started on going without food because the dysphoria prohibits you from ever leaving your house. No quick trips to the supermarket. You'd rather starve than face reality. Try that one too, going without food for a good week, seeing what scraps you can scavenge.

Better yet, stick a dress on and go out, see what sort of looks and comments you get. Until you've done all of these then you know nothing of what it's like to be a trans Woman and have no place to tell them to just "live with it, because the gays did" a statement which also shows a worrying lack of understanding of the whole LGBTQ community as a whole.

I did read the thread you quoted but I couldn't find a post where you specifically discussed pronouns.

Why is my understanding of trans people is worrying? I have never and would never treat anyone any differently based on their gender identity and using the student in question as an example I didn't think of him differently afterwards than I did before. The uncomfortableness I talked about in the parents evening I mentioned was my issue caused by the perception of trans rights created by activists online, which is exactly the point I'm making, they are doing trans people no favours with their piling on people for things like semantics when they should be campaigning for an end to the abuse you mentioned or for genuine problems like toilets, my opnion on which would be to campaign for genderless toilets with cubicals for everyone. I might actually be able to find a clean one then.

I think you really need to read a blog I wrote about my colleagues reactions to myself coming out https://candifluffy.wixsite.com/about/post/stepping-out-at-work
It seems like you were the one making more of a deal of it then the person themselves which probably led to their discomfort around you. Most trans people, like myself, couldn't give a rats ass what you think about them.

That's pretty much the conclusion I came to afterwards, the point I'm making about trans rights activists is that they give the perception that being misgendered is akin to racism, which causes alot of ill will amongst people whose support for rational things like the right to do and be what you want has always been there. I'll give the blog a read - however, from my perspective, it doesn't seem like we disagree on much, though you seem to disagree and I don't quite understand why.

Edit: I read your blog and, from my perspective, it only serves to highlight what I talking about - that the online actiivities of trans activists only serve to create problems that don't and shouldn't exist, however I'm sure the online activities of trans phobic people only created the hesitation and anticipation of awkardness that you discussed in your blog. Maybe my point is that the internet is bad for us all and we should just blow it up.

 

[Rudie]

I did read the thread you quoted but I couldn't find a post where you specifically discussed pronouns.

https://www.redcafe.net/threads/transgender.452657/post-25134460

I go by anything, the truth is that only myself and medical practitioners need know now my biology. Yes the whole trans rights debate is harming all involved, this thread is about a literacy icon who is fanning that debate under the pretence of "loving trans people" and using extremists as an excuse to do so. In that thread I actively defended Rowling the last time she'd raised the subject https://www.redcafe.net/threads/transgender.452657/post-25133088 which I did vocally with friends etc, something I now regret.

I don't think people should be arrested for using the wrong pronouns, I couldn't give a crap what pronouns people use. I still remember after a night of drinking at a spa, hot tubs etc with my best friend for her birthday and us grabbing breakfast the next morning, I distinctly remember the dysphoria and saying to my friend that I'd keep my head down and would she order for us. The Cafe we'd selected wouldn't have looked out of place on Last of the Summer Wine. We selected it thinking it would be quiet but we couldn't see until we were inside... It was brimming, we got the last table and I grabbed the seat with my back to as many people as I could get. I had no makeup, I was androgynous with jeans and a tshirt. They bought our meals over.

"There you go ladies."

I looked at my friend and she looked at me, the biggest smiles formed on our faces. My dysphoria cleared within seconds. They'd used their own pronouns based on what they saw and for me, that was my cure and a big tipping point of my journey.

Not everybody is as fortunate to be able to reach that place but as a society surely we should do what we can to help people get there, even if it is using pronouns we don't actually see but secretly know the person desperately wants to hear?

 

[DFreshKing]

If the term 'woman' is not going to be defined how we have always had medically or how Rowling says it is how is 'Woman' defined?

 

[Rudie]

If the term 'woman' is not going to be defined how we have always had medically or how Rowling says it is how is 'Woman' defined?

The definition has expanded to become more inclusive, language evolves. Quite simply what do you see? Do you really think I should be using the Men's toilets? I think that'd confuse a whole lot of people personally. I mean, I'd find it pretty funny but I'd be putting myself in danger for several reasons, for example, if people thought I was skipping the queues for the ladies. I've spoken about biology here https://www.redcafe.net/threads/transgender.452657/post-25133563

 

[balaks]

The definition has expanded to become more inclusive, language evolves. Quite simply what do you see? Do you really think I should be using the Men's toilets? I think that'd confuse a whole lot of people personally. I mean, I'd find it pretty funny but I'd be putting myself in danger for several reasons, for example, if people thought I was skipping the queues for the ladies. I've spoken about biology here https://www.redcafe.net/threads/transgender.452657/post-25133563

I've no issue with there being a third toilet option for people that is unisex - in fact I think it's a great idea and everybody should have a choice and not have to feel they are being forced into an uncomfortable situation because they need a pee.

 

[Tribec]

What I want to know is how are you being stopped from doing that by someone not believing you are a woman or by using the wrong pronoun.

Just to give you my personal experience of this, I'm a teacher and in the last form group I had, whom I had taken for 5 years, there was a trans man and no matter how much I tried I always, without fail, referred to him as her, it was automatic and I just couldn't help it. One parents evening I got myself into such a twist because I couldn't stop using the pronoun her that I just had to stop the meeting and apologise, the parent didn't seem offended and we ended up sat there apologising to each other endlessly. I never treated him differently, never thought of him differently, but even now I have to make a conscious effort to write him instead of her. Why is that disprespecful or wrong?

Edit: In the end I just ended up referring to him by his name at all times because I just couldn't stop myself from saying her.

My thoughts on this issue, i.e not using the correct pronouns, did you consider that using the incorrect pronouns may in someway have left the young person feeling invalidated by you constantly referring to him as her? Did he at any point feel able to challenge you over this? By you not using the correct pronouns and if they didn't feel able to challenge you that would give others in the class (and I'm not saying this happened) some scope should they be of that nature to misgender this person themselves, and that could lead to bullying. Now in this case it may not have happened, but having worked with so many trans youth over the past few years I've seen this happen.

I do hope that come September when the LGBTQ+ is added into PSHE as a requirement your school fully embraces this. I fully hope your local authority does as well, and doesn't capitulate as others authorities have done by removing trans lesson plans sent out to schools by reputable organisations following pressure from some of the anti trans rights groups like transgendertrend, LGB Alliance or SafeSchools.

 

[horsechoker]

I've no issue with there being a third toilet option for people that is unisex - in fact I think it's a great idea and everybody should have a choice and not have to feel they are being forced into an uncomfortable situation because they need a pee.

This toilet is usually gender neutral although I don't know what people with disabilities would think if they saw an abled-bodied person using it.

 

[crappycraperson]

Rowling's essay being referred to - https://www.jkrowling.com/answers/

 

[Tribec]

This toilet is usually gender neutral although I don't know what people with disabilities would think if they saw an abled-bodied person using it.

So in a way you answer your own question. Why should trans women be forced to use a disabled toilet if they are not disabled?

 

[Cait Sith]

"People who menstruate" in a false sense of overly political correctness is as comically absurd as "peoplekind" by Justin Trudeau. Liberalism being like this now is the reason why we have right wing nuts being elected left and right in Western countries.

 

[horsechoker]

So in a way you answer your own question. Why should trans women be forced to use a disabled toilet if they are not disabled?

True, but this is the only gender neutral toilet that exists. It's not me who has a problem with sharing a bathroom with trans people.

 

[balaks]

True, but this is the only gender neutral toilet that exists. It's not me who has a problem with sharing a bathroom with trans people.

Yes but we live in the real world and in the real world many people do feel uncomfortable with it and indeed many trans people also feel uncomfortable with the toilet issue so why not make a change that benefits everybody and gives people a choice? Maybe at some point in the future we will live in a world where everybody is totally fine with sharing a bathroom with anybody but we are nowhere near that.

 

[Rudie]

The Unisex toilet solution goes against what rad fem's want. They don't want everything to be unisex; toilets, prisons, changing rooms, where would it stop? They want sex segregation period.

But how is that policed or implemented? That's my question. It can't be. And what about establishments without the room to add extra toilets. Unless every toilet is going to have a blood test station, an x-ray machine. etc. then it's not possible.

Even with a unisex toilet how would this stop trans Women from using the Women's? Again, are Women going to be subjected to intense medical screening on entry? Are we going to segregate people who have "manly" features, which would include many biological Women. It's absurd.

 

[Tribec]

True, but this is the only gender neutral toilet that exists. It's not me who has a problem with sharing a bathroom with trans people.

I think you'll find these are gender neutral as well..

 

[balaks]

The Unisex toilet solution goes against what rad fem's want. They don't want everything to be unisex; toilets, prisons, changing rooms, where would it stop? They want sex segregation period.

But how is that policed or implemented? That's my question. It can't be. And what about establishments without the room to add extra toilets. Unless every toilet is going to have a blood test station, an x-ray machine. etc. then it's not possible.

I'm not going to pretend I know much about it because I don't. However would common sense not dictate that offering people a choice which includes a unisex option can enable trans people (or anybody else for that matter) who feel uncomfortable with the current male/female toilet options (I'd imagine because of how other people react) an option to avoid all that and go and use the loo without those issues. I'm not pretending this is a long-term solution but it surely is a better option than having people feeling so uncomfortable with how things are now they are avoiding using public toilets at all? You don't need to police anything - just let people use whichever loo they feel comfortable using.

Personally I feel uncomfortable in unisex toilets so I would continue to use the male loos but as long as we all get the option then surely that's ok?

 

[horsechoker]

Yes but we live in the real world and in the real world many people do feel uncomfortable with it and indeed many trans people also feel uncomfortable with the toilet issue so why not make a change that benefits everybody and gives people a choice? Maybe at some point in the future we will live in a world where everybody is totally fine with sharing a bathroom with anybody but we are nowhere near that.

We'd have to build the facilities to accommodate everyone. I don't know what the solution would be particularly in small venues. There was a period in time where people didn't want to use the same bathroom as non-White people, today that attitude would be seen as ridiculous.