He's not a DM though.
If we're starting Bruno and Pogba, Matic needs to play.
How can McTominay be dropped when he hasn't started a league game this year? For McTominay to start it would mean Fred or Matic is being dropped.
Who gets the 3rd midfield slot: Fred or McTominay
- Thread starter Fortitude
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If we're starting Bruno and Pogba, Matic needs to play.
Erm he started against Everton in March...
basically started all league games up till november then missed 2 (injured?)
then started the next 5
Then missed 7 with inury
5 mins as a sub in his first game back
started against everton
than 1 week after sub against city
so other than when injured or his first game back from injury mctominay has started every league game except one
Hes also started all FA cup games when fit
Hes also started 5 games in the europa (including 2 this year) and been on the bench twice (wasnt in the squad twice - injured?)
So yeah hes a starter and he has started 3 games this year after his injury
The ideal attacking line-up for me is:
McTominay, Fred - Rashford, Pogba, Bruno - Martial
Now those 6 would scare most teams
McTominay, Fred - Rashford, Pogba, Bruno - Martial
Now those 6 would scare most teams
Whoever does start can we all agree that Lingard and Pereira shouldn't?
Didn’t bother to read much of this thread. It’s hardly just a binary choice between Fred and McTominay. It’s bound to be a much recycled midfield with fixture congestion and everyone back from injury. Like I don’t see any thread going Pogba or Matic... hopefully all these people get to play a part. A test of strategy and people management for Ole for sure though.
If you use that rationale, then Pogba shouldn't be dropped because everytime he is fit, he starts. He only misses games due to injury.
That might even work in a 4-2-2-2 formation.
Something like this:
DDG
AWB Lindelof Maguire Shaw
Fred Mctominay
Pogba -------- Bruno
Rashford Martial
The only problem with this formation is that it puts a tonne of pressure on the fullbacks to provide width. Still, this setup is probably the best way to incorporate our best first eleven.AWB Lindelof Maguire Shaw
Fred Mctominay
Pogba -------- Bruno
Rashford Martial
Going to be a tough fight between Fred/Mctominay/Matic.
Personally I think Ole will opt to have Matic with them, and leave Fred/Mctominay to be a pair for another game.
We might end up doing 2 different teams and having Pogba/Fernandes on different sides as the creative hub
Personally I think Ole will opt to have Matic with them, and leave Fred/Mctominay to be a pair for another game.
We might end up doing 2 different teams and having Pogba/Fernandes on different sides as the creative hub
Doubt it. He might rotate and bring in 1 midfielder to replace another one from the previous game but not all 3 at once. That's how you fail to get any sort of cohesion and the midfield need to be a consistent one, at least 2 players have to be consistently involved and not changed ever 1 or 2 games.Going to be a tough fight between Fred/Mctominay/Matic.
Personally I think Ole will opt to have Matic with them, and leave Fred/Mctominay to be a pair for another game.
We might end up doing 2 different teams and having Pogba/Fernandes on different sides as the creative hub
Well we're going to be playing 3 games a week for a month, rotation will definitely be needed.
Could we perhaps play Bruno on the right?
Mctominay Fred and fernandes for me. Most balanced working well, no need to change
No, he was signed to be a CAM, we should play him where he is most effective.
I hope you're wrong. That formation just doesn't work for us and that Everton game is a good example...
I think Fred should be the one in front of the defense line because he does a wonderful job cleaning up and also he's quick and does the messy tackles if required. He's our Kante and i think he can be better than Kante if he kept improving. I love Brazilians and i think they are full grown footballers. They have football in their blood. Mctominay on the other hand is also great but i think sometimes he doesn't really go for it when it comes to forward passes or picking off a free winger. He's great, no doubt about that and with Pogba and Bruno in front of him he'll learn a lot and quick but for now, in the big games it should be Fred.
Any formation is as good as it's players and manager principles. Same 4 midfielder formation will be so much better with creative player like Pogba,
We started the season like this :
Pogba--McTominay
-------Lingard
I think Bruno will slot in in place of Lingard.
Even when we have McTominay and Fred playing together in midfield, its Fred who plays a bit further forward, with Matic/McTominay staying back.
Pogba--McTominay
-------Lingard
I think Bruno will slot in in place of Lingard.
Even when we have McTominay and Fred playing together in midfield, its Fred who plays a bit further forward, with Matic/McTominay staying back.
I don't think it will. Not without our FB's. If we had FB's who were more attack minded then it could work. But ours are better defensively than they are offensively and with that formation you need your FB's to provide the width...
Defence needs to be solid as feck as if we are playing Pogba, Bruno, and 3 up top
I'm assuming that the fixture list will be quite crowded, so this certainly would make sense.Going to be a tough fight between Fred/Mctominay/Matic.
Personally I think Ole will opt to have Matic with them, and leave Fred/Mctominay to be a pair for another game.
We might end up doing 2 different teams and having Pogba/Fernandes on different sides as the creative hub
Against Spurs? Matic for balance.
Ideally McTominay would have a similar adaption to his role like Marchisio at Juventus. Marchisio played in central midfield, physical robustness, energetic foil with dogged determination, viciously underrated on the ball, with stand out performance in key game in his locker. A role not dissimilar to McTominay. Following Pirlo's departure, Marchisio took on the role as the deepest midfielder. Juventus started the 15/16 season with Padoin, and it was only when Marchisio entered the fray, over Padoin that took to his role like a duck to water that Pogba had a galvanising influence on Juventus. Marchisio was historically a grafter playing the role of a deep lying playmaker. Pogba still a mezzala, but now with less defensive responsibilities with Pirlo out the picture. Khedira was useful as a defensive box to box midfielder positioning Pogba to be less of a shuttler at times. Marchisio transitioned from #8 to #6. Potentially a stretch
(given the discrepancies at the stage of their career when making the transition) , but it would be ideal if McTominay could make a similar transition.
When City made the acquisition of Fernandinho he was a defensive box to box midfielder. In this game against Bayern he was playing alongside the designated defensive midfielder Javi Garcia, and Silva in a more advanced position making it a balanced midfield setup. In contrast to the issues when it was him and Yaya as box to box midfielders which made CIty susceptible to being overrun in midfield. Most noticeable on the European stage, Barca in the 1st half. With Guardiola, Fernandinho would transition from a tenacious defensive box to box midfielder into a defensive linchpin with expansive passing and spatial and tactical awareness. Potentially a stretch ((given the discrepancies at the stage of their career when making the transition) , but it would be ideal if Fred could make a similar transition.
I think Ole with start Matic against Spurs.
The use of our full backs will be of fundamental importance. We could be the reverse Liverpool in some aspects. Liverpool have a workmanlike midfield, and world class delivery from the full backs. The cbs also contribute with long range passes, or stepping into midfield. With Pogba and Fernandes, we have the personnel for a midfield which is predominantly creative. Concurrently, the personnel of our full backs is more defensive orientated. Using our full backs as inverted full backs will give more options on the ball for the defensive pivot, and allow the two danger men in question to advance further up the pitch. This could be particularly useful for Man Utd, as Bruno and Pogba are very direct in the way they approach the game, penchant for going for the killer ball at the risk of being dispossessed, as well as shots from distance. In 16/17 especially, Pogba would occupy areas of the pitch in very advanced areas as he knew Bonucci had the expansive passing range to pick him up. When Pogba is placed in a side overly reliant on him for creativity, he doesn't get to venture further forward to be a goal threat as much as he'd like. With inverted full backs centrally, we could see more of Pogba being an aerial threat in open play as he momentarily takes up roles of a shadow striker once the opportunity presents itself.
Do United have the necessary full backs to make it work? Looking at City, Zinchenko is a midfielder by trade, so it isn't too surprising that he acclimatised to the role. Something that couldn't be said of Cancelo thus far, whose very much a ball carrier used to operating vertically. They don't exactly grow on trees, but in a dream world United would have Leovegildo Júnior. United have players that were recently released that may have potentially been good inverted fullbacks to a competent degree, one being Blind. Now, I didn't like Blind as a central midfielder, but perhaps playing as an inverted full back may have alleviated the lingering doubts I had of him. Another player being Lee O'Connor who in purely aesthetic terms was almost like a hybrid of Lahm and Frenkie de Jong. Now United don't have the aforementioned fullbacks. And here's where I want to mention Kyle Walker. In the past two seasons, he has just 3 assists despite being formerly regarded as an offensive full back. Concerning his defensive style, he used to show the winger on the outside as he had every confidence in his athleticism. This isn't too dissimilar to Bisakka showing wingers on the outside. I don't remember his passing being particularly impressive at Spurs, but now that he's playing centrally he has more outlets than being confined to the side. It might be a stretch for Bisakka to do the same, but maybe not. There's also the issue of who provides the width if the full backs are tucked in. The 15/16 Martial would've thrived in that role I'd imagine, a dribbling specialist. It would be wasted on any variation of Rashford as he has a different skillset. James would be fine on the right, but there's question marks if he has the requisite sprinkling of stardust. Could also use with Maguire marshalling the defence to move higher up the pitch, and Lindelof taking much more responsibility on the ball.
In some respects, the prospect of having Bruno and Pogba reminds me of Lampard and Ballack. Strong personalities, prolific (assists/goals) midfielders in the offensive phase, forceful players, and have an arsenal of strings to their bow. Naturally, footballing intelligence will be required to adapt to the actions of partner. I remember when Pogba first arrived, Mata and Rooney took turns in going deep when Pogba left Fellaini to go further forward. Many of Pogba's detractors have been waiting for him to have a decisive clutch moment. Take his clutch moment against Man City for an example. In some ways, it resembled the clutch moment of Ballack against Man Utd. One of Ballack's best performances in a Chelsea shirt. The persistent shots from distance of Fernandes reminds me of Lampard's penchant to have a shot on goal.
(given the discrepancies at the stage of their career when making the transition) , but it would be ideal if McTominay could make a similar transition.
When City made the acquisition of Fernandinho he was a defensive box to box midfielder. In this game against Bayern he was playing alongside the designated defensive midfielder Javi Garcia, and Silva in a more advanced position making it a balanced midfield setup. In contrast to the issues when it was him and Yaya as box to box midfielders which made CIty susceptible to being overrun in midfield. Most noticeable on the European stage, Barca in the 1st half. With Guardiola, Fernandinho would transition from a tenacious defensive box to box midfielder into a defensive linchpin with expansive passing and spatial and tactical awareness. Potentially a stretch ((given the discrepancies at the stage of their career when making the transition) , but it would be ideal if Fred could make a similar transition.
I think Ole with start Matic against Spurs.
The use of our full backs will be of fundamental importance. We could be the reverse Liverpool in some aspects. Liverpool have a workmanlike midfield, and world class delivery from the full backs. The cbs also contribute with long range passes, or stepping into midfield. With Pogba and Fernandes, we have the personnel for a midfield which is predominantly creative. Concurrently, the personnel of our full backs is more defensive orientated. Using our full backs as inverted full backs will give more options on the ball for the defensive pivot, and allow the two danger men in question to advance further up the pitch. This could be particularly useful for Man Utd, as Bruno and Pogba are very direct in the way they approach the game, penchant for going for the killer ball at the risk of being dispossessed, as well as shots from distance. In 16/17 especially, Pogba would occupy areas of the pitch in very advanced areas as he knew Bonucci had the expansive passing range to pick him up. When Pogba is placed in a side overly reliant on him for creativity, he doesn't get to venture further forward to be a goal threat as much as he'd like. With inverted full backs centrally, we could see more of Pogba being an aerial threat in open play as he momentarily takes up roles of a shadow striker once the opportunity presents itself.
Do United have the necessary full backs to make it work? Looking at City, Zinchenko is a midfielder by trade, so it isn't too surprising that he acclimatised to the role. Something that couldn't be said of Cancelo thus far, whose very much a ball carrier used to operating vertically. They don't exactly grow on trees, but in a dream world United would have Leovegildo Júnior. United have players that were recently released that may have potentially been good inverted fullbacks to a competent degree, one being Blind. Now, I didn't like Blind as a central midfielder, but perhaps playing as an inverted full back may have alleviated the lingering doubts I had of him. Another player being Lee O'Connor who in purely aesthetic terms was almost like a hybrid of Lahm and Frenkie de Jong. Now United don't have the aforementioned fullbacks. And here's where I want to mention Kyle Walker. In the past two seasons, he has just 3 assists despite being formerly regarded as an offensive full back. Concerning his defensive style, he used to show the winger on the outside as he had every confidence in his athleticism. This isn't too dissimilar to Bisakka showing wingers on the outside. I don't remember his passing being particularly impressive at Spurs, but now that he's playing centrally he has more outlets than being confined to the side. It might be a stretch for Bisakka to do the same, but maybe not. There's also the issue of who provides the width if the full backs are tucked in. The 15/16 Martial would've thrived in that role I'd imagine, a dribbling specialist. It would be wasted on any variation of Rashford as he has a different skillset. James would be fine on the right, but there's question marks if he has the requisite sprinkling of stardust. Could also use with Maguire marshalling the defence to move higher up the pitch, and Lindelof taking much more responsibility on the ball.
In some respects, the prospect of having Bruno and Pogba reminds me of Lampard and Ballack. Strong personalities, prolific (assists/goals) midfielders in the offensive phase, forceful players, and have an arsenal of strings to their bow. Naturally, footballing intelligence will be required to adapt to the actions of partner. I remember when Pogba first arrived, Mata and Rooney took turns in going deep when Pogba left Fellaini to go further forward. Many of Pogba's detractors have been waiting for him to have a decisive clutch moment. Take his clutch moment against Man City for an example. In some ways, it resembled the clutch moment of Ballack against Man Utd. One of Ballack's best performances in a Chelsea shirt. The persistent shots from distance of Fernandes reminds me of Lampard's penchant to have a shot on goal.
Yup it's why i said earlier in the thread that Lindelof will stick out like sore thumb if he continues playing like he's shielding before covid even happened.
The weakest links in the team right now if we play our best players is the right wing and him imo.
I tend to agree. Fred is amazing, covering a lot of ground all around the pitch, McTominay does the same but brings the physical aspect as well. Fernandes seems undroppable.
Based on attributes, I think Pogba and Fred could work too.
The fact we play defensive full backs gives us the ability to be extra attacking more centrally and that's why I agree with you that we will play Matic for now to balance it out.
I've always thought about what the CDM will actually allow us to do in the future. Will he protect the back line and allow the ball playing CB's get forward to make our central attacking game even more in quantity whilst the CDM sits back to guard alongside our defensive fullbacks depending on what side the attack is developing?
This is why I personally think Ole will go for a CDM that has the ability to drop to CB or atleast guard CB from a deep position enough to play Bruno and Pogba in one formation, but also make the 352 and the 4231 work in one formation.
I look forward to see how Mctomminay as a CDM is but to me, Mctomminay and Fred are two terrific terriers at CM than CDM so far. Mctomminay however is clearly developing under Carrick so that is only ever going to help him be a CDM for us in the future. His passing is really starting to be good.
imo for first choice 11 i would have fred over mctominay if that was the only choice allowed. Fred has the ability to pass the ball and wriggle out of pressure. This will happen more often when we play better teams and therefore we might aswell start practicing with worse opposition. Yes he will lose the ball sometimes and we will concede a goal because of it, but he will also create many oppurtunities and goals if he's able to beat the initial press.
Kind of like how Guardiola doesnt mind his goal keepers conceeding a goal here or there if they are sweeping and passing out from the back. Its because he knows that overall there will be a net positive goal difference playing like that (for his team) compared to booting it long which would eliminate those mistakes by the goalkeeper but also eliminate any possibility of scoring goals his way.
Kind of like how Guardiola doesnt mind his goal keepers conceeding a goal here or there if they are sweeping and passing out from the back. Its because he knows that overall there will be a net positive goal difference playing like that (for his team) compared to booting it long which would eliminate those mistakes by the goalkeeper but also eliminate any possibility of scoring goals his way.
Don't think Fred shouldn't be the third midfielder. Bruno and Pogba absolutely must be attacking whether teams are parking the bus or not so we need someone that sits and is very good defensively. Both Fred and Mctominay had a bad game yesterday but I'm not judging from that alone
From a defensive perspective Fred isn't the one. Gets beaten too easily. Gets bullied off the ball too easily. Sometimes slips and falls on the ground for some reason. Can't shield the back line and he's bad aerially for the occasional long ball that may come his way as the deepest midfielder
Mctominay is the better candidate. He's much better than Fred defensively. Better tackler, better aerially, tough to be bullied off the ball. What i think he lacks is positional awareness of a DM and this is what makes Matic.
In all honesty I think we need a DM. Matic is on the decline and doesn't have the pace we need in a midfield with Bruno and Pogba. Fred would get rinsed similarly to what happened when paired with Pereira this season. Mctominay we've seen he and Pogba in a pivot earlier this season and they were dominated.
That said I'd say Mctominay and Matic are the candidates but both have weaknesses that could cost us
From a defensive perspective Fred isn't the one. Gets beaten too easily. Gets bullied off the ball too easily. Sometimes slips and falls on the ground for some reason. Can't shield the back line and he's bad aerially for the occasional long ball that may come his way as the deepest midfielder
Mctominay is the better candidate. He's much better than Fred defensively. Better tackler, better aerially, tough to be bullied off the ball. What i think he lacks is positional awareness of a DM and this is what makes Matic.
In all honesty I think we need a DM. Matic is on the decline and doesn't have the pace we need in a midfield with Bruno and Pogba. Fred would get rinsed similarly to what happened when paired with Pereira this season. Mctominay we've seen he and Pogba in a pivot earlier this season and they were dominated.
That said I'd say Mctominay and Matic are the candidates but both have weaknesses that could cost us
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Once again - Matic. He’s just a better footballer & also is a real DM.
Matic. Not even debatable. Superior in everything but pace and stamina. That is why we need to sign someone.
The few minutes Bruno&Pogba + McT played were good. McT discipline and holding, with Pogba holding the centre when McT pulled to the side, Bruno joining in to help defensively, them exchanging passes with each other, McT mostly laying it off giving simple passes to Brun and Pog, etc.
But unfortunately that's too short.
Need to see + Fred first..
...and + Matic when opposing teams are actually attacking, not "shut up shop" like what Spurs did.
But unfortunately that's too short.
Need to see + Fred first..
...and + Matic when opposing teams are actually attacking, not "shut up shop" like what Spurs did.
Matic
We dont need to see this
Neither, both are substandard.
At the moment Matic with Fred as back-up.
The priority for me is to provide the right formation to get the best out of Bruno and Pogba
bailey Maguire Lindelof
AWB mctom Pogba Shaw
bruno
Greenwood Rashford
AWB and Shaw must bomb forward to give us width and offer protection in midfield so Pogba not exposed
Bruno and Pogba can pick the passes for the front 2 and add a few goals
We're not going to be serious contenders with Fred and McTominay as first team regulars. They should be in the squad as back-up and no more.
You need world-class fullbacks who are equally efficient in defense and attack to make a 3-5-2 effective, and we don't have that in AWB or Shaw.
Many have held that sort of opinion, but it’s as if now Liverpool have made it fashionable to have average midfielders, which is used to counter.
I think Scott and Fred have done themselves great credit this season to be fair to them, and have a role to play. I think Fred in particular has shown great quality, and Scott had developed very well. I think a top midfield can have one of these players, but not necessarily both.
Ultimately, I think the best teams typically impose themselves on the other teams. Almost every player in their team is lined up in accordance to how he is going to go and beat the other team. We’ve made great strides - but I think the midfield and the full-back areas of the team, and even right wing with James have leaned more to a ‘how are we going to stop other teams beating us’ focus. Unsurprisingly, we have a great defensive record and score and create too little.
I don’t think reactive teams make the best teams. The next step is for us to create a plan that is in motion from the first whistle every week, with other teams more concerned about how to stop it.
AWB & Shaw stent good enough going forward to make that work. Would be way too defensive.
Romero
AWB
Bailly
Maguire
Shaw
Matic
Pogba
Bruno
Greenwood
Martial
Rashford
That is our strongest eleven.