Woodward, Glazers....

finneh

Full Member
Joined
Jun 28, 2010
Messages
7,318
You're right, looking at the figures Real & Barca attracted for their new kit deals Woodward let it go too cheaply; United stuck with this deal do another 5 seasons too.

We've been told by a couple of posters on here what the Glazers brought to United in terms of commercial expertise which is complete nonsense.
In truth I didn't buy into the "commercial genius" line then or now. I recall having many debates with a few on here (I believe one was GCHQ who often set our interest payments against our increased commercial revenue; as if we'd have been completely static without the Glazers).

Our commercial revenues increased at a similar rate to similar clubs like Bayern, Real and Barcelona. That's not to say we weren't poor in this regard towards the end of the PLC era, but it would take stratospheric incompetence to have ignored this obvious revenue generator, particularly for the decade mid 00's to mid 10's.

This is the limit for me, when pretend journalists start playing to the gallery. The only club that has been seriously spending is the one that had a registration ban and therefore a bit of cash from the previous windows. Everyone else seems stuck in the same area and why would United be an endless pit of money, no other club is and they all act accordingly,
The fans would be acting differently if we'd spent a billion over the last 15 years on a new stadium, rather than for the privilege of our owners.

Context is key. If City spend nothing for the next 5 years their owners have enough goodwill that the fan-base will barely say a word. Likewise fair-minded Spurs fans wouldn't complain as they've spent £1b on a new stadium. Arsenal fans were incredibly patient a decade ago for the same reason.

Our fanbase is always going to be one transfer window away from a revolt given what's happened the past decade and a half as there is no goodwill between the ownership and the fans. The reason is obvious given their enriching themselves at the expense of the club.

If the Glazers want to gain some goodwill then all they need to do is invest the entirety of our EBITDA over the next decade on the club (senior players, stadium improvements, youth upgrades, youth players, hell even paying down their debt).
 
Last edited:

Fosu-Mens

Full Member
Joined
Apr 11, 2016
Messages
4,101
Location
Fred | 2019/20 Performances

This is the limit for me, when pretend journalists start playing to the gallery. The only club that has been seriously spending is the one that had a registration ban and therefore a bit of cash from the previous windows. Everyone else seems stuck in the same area and why would United be an endless pit of money, no other club is and they all act accordingly,
While I agree with your sentiment about said Journalist and those tweets, I also think there is the case that the Glazers/Woodward only seems to act when the fans are showing signs of unrest/revolt against club/owners. And since the Glazers clearly only have a financial interest in the club, anything/anyone creating/attempting to create a common understanding among United fans that we are not going anywhere with the current owners/governance is better than those that gets briefed by the club/Woodward. So right or wrong, I'm ok with pretenders playing for the gallery as long as it aligns with what is best for the club long term -->getting new owners (as long as it is not Saudi/criminals/blatant sportswashing).

No chance he is getting any personal interviews with the players anytime soon by posting critique of the owners/governance for his 50k+ followers on twitter.
 

MancunianAngels

Full Member
Joined
Jan 11, 2013
Messages
2,512
Location
Manchester
Supports
FC United
As for the social media stuff.

As Mark Ogden just said on Twitter: "You can’t make a big deal of Ighalo trending worldwide on Twitter and then complain about keyboard warriors moaning about transfers... "

Barney from RedNews sums it up quite well aswell:" United worried about a ‘social media frenzy’ - in anyway related to the United who had Richard Arnold boast not so long ago that: "Transfer speculation drives high level of interaction within our social media communities."
 

Vault Dweller

Correctly predicted Italy to win Euro 2020
Joined
May 26, 2016
Messages
6,710
Location
Vault 88, The Commonwealth
If that is true, it's annoying that we're being pointed at as the problem.

We don't want transfers, we'd all rather have another class of 92' come through instead, but someone seems to think that will just organically happen with as little investment as possible. In the mean time, while we're waiting for the next Messi to be born in Manchester and grow up being a United fan, someone has to buy better players than Jones, Lingard, Mata, Pereira and Ighalo.

Don't blame us for wanting progress and improvement, blame yourselves for buying a club that has expectant fans.
Agreed. Most of the stuff on Twitter and what have you is daft, but the legit concerns from us having a good end to the season and expecting to build on it, especially after all the chat from the likes of Woodward and co.

Frustrating.
 

Vault Dweller

Correctly predicted Italy to win Euro 2020
Joined
May 26, 2016
Messages
6,710
Location
Vault 88, The Commonwealth
As for the social media stuff.

As Mark Ogden just said on Twitter: "You can’t make a big deal of Ighalo trending worldwide on Twitter and then complain about keyboard warriors moaning about transfers... "

Barney from RedNews sums it up quite well aswell:" United worried about a ‘social media frenzy’ - in anyway related to the United who had Richard Arnold boast not so long ago that: "Transfer speculation drives high level of interaction within our social media communities."
Absolutely bang on. Hypocritical to say the least.
 

JPRouve

can't stop thinking about balls - NOT deflategate
Scout
Joined
Jan 31, 2014
Messages
66,186
Location
France
While I agree with your sentiment about said Journalist and those tweets, I also think there is the case that the Glazers/Woodward only seems to act when the fans are showing signs of unrest/revolt against club/owners. And since the Glazers clearly only have a financial interest in the club, anything/anyone creating/attempting to create a common understanding among United fans that we are not going anywhere with the current owners/governance is better than those that gets briefed by the club/Woodward. So right or wrong, I'm ok with pretenders playing for the gallery as long as it aligns with what is best for the club long term -->getting new owners (as long as it is not Saudi/criminals/blatant sportswashing).

No chance he is getting any personal interviews with the players anytime soon by posting critique of the owners/governance for his 50k+ followers on twitter.
It doesn't align with the clubs interests though, it's a genuinely stupid take that has for only goal to get clicks and followers for his useless articles. If he starts writing articles showing that the club has been consistently spending big and that the money has been squandered by Woodward and the managers that the board picked then he will be sharing interesting informations that hopefully will force the club to change things but when you act as if the club isn't spending money and that others are spending when they aren't, then you are a fraud because your tweet is blatantly wrong.
 

Fosu-Mens

Full Member
Joined
Apr 11, 2016
Messages
4,101
Location
Fred | 2019/20 Performances
As for the social media stuff.

As Mark Ogden just said on Twitter: "You can’t make a big deal of Ighalo trending worldwide on Twitter and then complain about keyboard warriors moaning about transfers... "

Barney from RedNews sums it up quite well aswell:" United worried about a ‘social media frenzy’ - in anyway related to the United who had Richard Arnold boast not so long ago that: "Transfer speculation drives high level of interaction within our social media communities."
Well, more difficult to boast in the Q. earnings calls about all the social media activity when most of it is against the club/owners/governance. There are only two things the Glazers/governance of the club really care about:
1. MUFC continuing as a cash cow.
2. Appeasing the fans. If the fans unite and revolt against the club/owners = bad for business. I reckon they have some people acting as pro Glazers trolls on social media and watching for negative trends that might unite the fans .
 

Fosu-Mens

Full Member
Joined
Apr 11, 2016
Messages
4,101
Location
Fred | 2019/20 Performances
It doesn't align with the clubs interests though, it's a genuinely stupid take that has for only goal to get clicks and followers for his useless articles. If he starts writing articles showing that the club has been consistently spending big and that the money has been squandered by Woodward and the managers that the board picked then he will be sharing interesting informations that hopefully will force the club to change things but when you act as if the club isn't spending money and that others are spending when they aren't, then you are a fraud because your tweet is blatantly wrong.
Negativity about the club and owners actions, right or wrong, never aligns with the clubs interest. But what is the interest of the club/owners? Does it align with the interest/goal of the fans/manager etc?
I'm not disputing whether United have spent enough or not (Since 2014 we have certainly spent enough on transfers and wages, shame about the outcome though).What I'm refering to is the effects of tweets like that: Fans uniting against owners/governance of the club. And they only act when fans are starting to get agitated or there is a financial benefit from doing it.... More fans getting pissed at the owners/Woody/the "Club", the likelier it is that they will do something other than getting more sponsors, generating mediaclicks, counting money... The effects of his tweets should align with the long term interests of the fans.
 

JPRouve

can't stop thinking about balls - NOT deflategate
Scout
Joined
Jan 31, 2014
Messages
66,186
Location
France
Negativity about the club and owners actions, right or wrong, never aligns with the clubs interest. But what is the interest of the club/owners? Does it align with the interest/goal of the fans/manager etc?
I'm not disputing whether United have spent enough or not (Since 2014 we have certainly spent enough on transfers and wages, shame about the outcome though).What I'm refering to is the effects of tweets like that: Fans uniting against owners/governance of the club. And they only act when fans are starting to get agitated or there is a financial benefit from doing it.... More fans getting pissed at the owners/Woody/the "Club", the likelier it is that they will do something other than getting more sponsors, generating mediaclicks, counting money... The effects of his tweets should align with the long term interests of the fans.
There is no effect to tweet like that outside of getting clicks for ESPN, these tweets have existed for decades and many clubs, it only serves the paper publishing it.
 

Fosu-Mens

Full Member
Joined
Apr 11, 2016
Messages
4,101
Location
Fred | 2019/20 Performances
There is no effect to tweet like that outside of getting clicks for ESPN, these tweets have existed for decades and many clubs, it only serves the paper publishing it.
Few papers/news corporations have an altruistic motive, so you could basically say that about most journalists and papers, without considering whether their postings are factually right or wrong. At least he takes a dig at those that have made this club into a capitalistic farce, so I can overlook the clickbaiting.

Do you think the owners/governance of the clubs interest aligns with the interest of the fans?
 

Sylar

Full Member
Joined
May 15, 2007
Messages
40,579
Matt Judge seems to be let of quite a bit, but that might be because he doesnt go to games like Woodward and is always seen like LevyLite.

I do find it funny how they are worried about negativity, and wanting Ole and the team to be backed by Fans, but they themselves arent doing that exact thing to help him succeed.
We are short in positions and have been for so many windows. We need a window where we bring in about 6 faces to stop that (because every time we bring in 3 we lose 3 and thus are short in the squad and are hoping for every youth incoming to be a success)

We are the new arsenal in terms of what is 'required' by those at the top. Its a business and will continue to be (and everything extra is a bonus)
It has been the case since 2005 but Fergie masked that with his genius.

I mean it was the same philosophy but Fergie kept winning:
-Replace Ronaldo with Obertan and Valencia (still have money left over)
-Don't sign Tevez but sign free agent owen

Lose CL final and try close gap with Young and Jones rather than bolstering midfield. (I wont put all the blame on those at top cos some of our managers have just blown / wasted money and been bad overall - but then again this has all happened under the watch of Ed Woodward since he took over from Gill)

The owners aim is to get CL football every other year to ensure the payments come in. If we miss out on CL for a year its not a huge deal, cos they will then use the clubs money to 'invest' the year after to push to getting CL qualification again. From 6th to 4th is worth the investment.
from 4th to 'possibly' 3rd or 2nd or the chance at 1st is not worth the investment for them, and thats sad for a organisation like United but thats what weve become to them. Woodward basically said not winning is not a big deal with his whole what happens on the field doesnt affect what happens of it etc.

For us to compete we need a huge string of luck in certain factors, investment when it does happen to be all correct, injuries not to occur, youth promotion needs to be hits to fill out the squad and we need luck in games too. That altogether will see us compete but isnt a formula you can really fully control.
 

JPRouve

can't stop thinking about balls - NOT deflategate
Scout
Joined
Jan 31, 2014
Messages
66,186
Location
France
Few papers/news corporations have an altruistic motive, so you could basically say that about most journalists and papers, without considering whether their postings are factually right or wrong. At least he takes a dig at those that have made this club into a capitalistic farce, so I can overlook the clickbaiting.

Do you think the owners/governance of the clubs interest aligns with the interest of the fans?
I do based on our spendings. The disconnect comes with their lack of competency and sport management acumen, which isn't special in sport and why I'm not losing my mind, we are experiencing what most clubs experience when they don't stumble on a managerial gem on the bench or in the front office. I have one question for United fans, do they think that the Edwards interests didn't align with fans interests in the 70s/80s?
 

red thru&thru

Full Member
Joined
Mar 2, 2004
Messages
7,657
The fans, well at least I do, want more clarity on who does what in terms of recruitment etc. Then we need to hold these people accountable. At the moment in time, Ed brushes off all responsibility on the footballing sides of things.
 

Fosu-Mens

Full Member
Joined
Apr 11, 2016
Messages
4,101
Location
Fred | 2019/20 Performances
I do based on our spendings. The disconnect comes with their lack of competency and sport management acumen, which isn't special in sport and why I'm not losing my mind, we are experiencing what most clubs experience when they don't stumble on a managerial gem on the bench or in the front office. I have one question for United fans, do they think that the Edwards interests didn't align with fans interests in the 70s/80s?
So if the Glazers wanted United to be among the best, they would still think that Woodward did a good enough job since SAF left? That the amount that has been spent on players and wages from 2013 and until now is reflected in the team's performances and results?
To me, the only alignment between the owners and the fans is where the owners want top 4 and CL due to the financial benefits, wheras the fans wants it due to staying competitive.

I'm OK with financially motivated owners as long as the profitability comes as an effect of performances on the pitch. Profitability/increased revenue and football performance are not mutually exclusive, at least not in any modern economic eyes. Long term profitability/success in companies is linked with customer satisfaction and quality as the main goal of the company, not profitability. And when the main goal of a company is to deliver quality products and customer satisfaction, the people in charge are the ones that know how to make good products and knows how to satisfy the customers, not an accountant... Sure, you can be short term profitable by cutting cost +++ but it is not sustainable. The customers will stop buying the products, the same will the fans over time. They will lose interest in the club.
 

Chesterlestreet

Man of the crowd
Joined
Oct 19, 2012
Messages
19,566
Imagine a 30-year barren spell for either Liverpool or United starting today. That English club will fade away into obscurity, definitely will. The playing field has become incredibly competitive. In a few years' time, we may see five/six, or even seven teams with a genuine chance of winning the PL.
Yes - that's a fair point: things do change (always), the landscape changes and the PL seems to just further cement its status as the biggest league in the world in terms of commercial appeal, with more teams joining an "elite" group at the top: however, I'd still say that the basic challenge for any team seeking to avoid becoming irrelevant is to remain - precisely - part of said group (whether that group comprises four teams - or seven).

In a future scenario where six or seven teams have the resources (financial and otherwise) to genuinely challenge for the biggest prizes, finishing below the top four won't have the same implications. By which I mean, it wouldn't necessarily spell disaster from either a commercial or a football perspective (the ability to attract sponsors - and players).

For the presumed top teams (based on wealth and potential in general) in most leagues, finishing anywhere from 3rd and below is considered failure at the moment. In a scenario where you're actually looking at seven "top teams", this would necessarily change - as in, the perception of both fans and potential sponsors would have to change with regard to what is considered unacceptable.
 

Fosu-Mens

Full Member
Joined
Apr 11, 2016
Messages
4,101
Location
Fred | 2019/20 Performances
This guy is a full blown muppet and the physical embodiment of our shit Twitter fan base
If he complained about spending in general, then yes.
But if he says that our contracts, the players bought, different type of managers, wage structure etc, then at least some of his message is correct regardless of him being a muppet or not.
 

crossy1686

career ending
Joined
Jun 5, 2010
Messages
31,950
Location
Manchester/Stockholm
If he complained about spending in general, then yes.
But if he says that our contracts, the players bought, different type of managers, wage structure etc, then at least some of his message is correct regardless of him being a muppet or not.
He speaks is with the clarity of hindsight and absolute bollocks about the contracts offered to Greenwood and Williams.

The fact the title is United are finished is sensationalism and shows you what his true intention is.
 

Chesterlestreet

Man of the crowd
Joined
Oct 19, 2012
Messages
19,566
You even mention that we tried to get Klopp!
That's a point worth mentioning.

He apparently turned us down because he found Woodward's pitch a bit ridiculous (Disney Land and so forth), but we did try to get him by all accounts.

Fine margins and all that.

Put it like this: if Klopp had accepted, is there any reason to think the Glazers would have denied him the money he has been given by Liverpool's owners?

The answer is definitely "no", in my opinion.

Is there any reason to think they would've been vehemently against making certain structural changes Klopp might have suggested?

The answer is: "not really", because as far as we know the Glazers are quite happy to leave "football matters" to "football people". It's what they've done ever since their father made his move. The problem has never been that they've interfered on the football side or positively blocked progressive changes - not unless you buy into the more outrageous conspiracy theories about Woodward and his supposed ego.
 

Fosu-Mens

Full Member
Joined
Apr 11, 2016
Messages
4,101
Location
Fred | 2019/20 Performances
He speaks is with the clarity of hindsight and absolute bollocks about the contracts offered to Greenwood and Williams.

The fact the title is United are finished is sensationalism and shows you what his true intention is.
In general, the way we do our contracts are bad. Revisionism yes, but not wrong.

Clickbait title.

Then i will not care to watch. Still, even idiots are right sometimes.
 

JPRouve

can't stop thinking about balls - NOT deflategate
Scout
Joined
Jan 31, 2014
Messages
66,186
Location
France
So if the Glazers wanted United to be among the best, they would still think that Woodward did a good enough job since SAF left? That the amount that has been spent on players and wages from 2013 and until now is reflected in the team's performances and results?
To me, the only alignment between the owners and the fans is where the owners want top 4 and CL due to the financial benefits, wheras the fans wants it due to staying competitive.

I'm OK with financially motivated owners as long as the profitability comes as an effect of performances on the pitch. Profitability/increased revenue and football performance are not mutually exclusive, at least not in any modern economic eyes. Long term profitability/success in companies is linked with customer satisfaction and quality as the main goal of the company, not profitability. And when the main goal of a company is to deliver quality products and customer satisfaction, the people in charge are the ones that know how to make good products and knows how to satisfy the customers, not an accountant... Sure, you can be short term profitable by cutting cost +++ but it is not sustainable. The customers will stop buying the products, the same will the fans over time. They will lose interest in the club.
Which is why I questioned their competency. If they were competent and only cared about profitability they would either reduce the club's annual budget or try hard to fix the organizational issues that the club seemingly has when it comes to the first team management. When you do neither of these things, the only conclusion is that you are incompetent because you do not optimize your own revenues and also do not optimize the quality of the product, as you put it.

I said in the past that I suspect too things, they know that they are out of their depth from a management standpoint and they are afraid to make a big move at board level because they know that they are out of their depth. This football club hasn't had an actual COO since Bolingbroke left for Inter, we have a CFO doing that job. Personally it would be my first move, you can find that type of people within football and you could even find very competent COOs outside of football, from that point that person should audit the club, compare it to other structures within the game, understand the strength and weakness of every key executives and build a structure that specifically fits United. And what I'm describing here has little to do with Football or football knowledge it applies to every businesses and on the football part finding help isn't that difficult if you build a network which is where asking advice from SAF would help.
 

KiD MoYeS

Good Craig got his c'nuppins
Joined
Feb 1, 2010
Messages
33,018
Location
Love is Blind
A few #WoodwardOut tweets creating a cloud of negativity. :lol:

Not only are they unambitious and greedy, they are deluded.
 

Fosu-Mens

Full Member
Joined
Apr 11, 2016
Messages
4,101
Location
Fred | 2019/20 Performances
Which is why I questioned their competency. If they were competent and only cared about profitability they would either reduce the club's annual budget or try hard to fix the organizational issues that the club seemingly has when it comes to the first team management. When you do neither of these things, the only conclusion is that you are incompetent because you do not optimize your own revenues and also do not optimize the quality of the product, as you put it.

I said in the past that I suspect too things, they know that they are out of their depth from a management standpoint and they are afraid to make a big move at board level because they know that they are out of their depth. This football club hasn't had an actual COO since Bolingbroke left for Inter, we have a CFO doing that job. Personally it would be my first move, you can find that type of people within football and you could even find very competent COOs outside of football, from that point that person should audit the club, compare it to other structures within the game, understand the strength and weakness of every key executives and build a structure that specifically fits United. And what I'm describing here has little to do with Football or football knowledge it applies to every businesses and on the football part finding help isn't that difficult if you build a network which is where asking advice from SAF would help.
That they are incompetent is something we can agree about. Not sure that they see themselves as out of their depth, given that , according to rumours, Glazers are the once OKing every transfer.
 

JPRouve

can't stop thinking about balls - NOT deflategate
Scout
Joined
Jan 31, 2014
Messages
66,186
Location
France
That they are incompetent is something we can agree about. Not sure that they see themselves as out of their depth, given that , according to rumours, Glazers are the once OKing every transfer.
Owners/executive boards will always be the ones Oking large expenditures, it's a weird point that journalists have put in fans heads.
 

united for life

Full Member
Joined
Apr 25, 2014
Messages
2,264
A few #WoodwardOut tweets creating a cloud of negativity. :lol:

Not only are they unambitious and greedy, they are deluded.
greedy describes them best! They are not into football and dont care about the fans. for them it’s business.
 

Schmeichel's Cartwheel

Correctly predicted Italy to win Euro 2020
Joined
Dec 21, 2014
Messages
11,420
Location
Manchester

This is the limit for me, when pretend journalists start playing to the gallery. The only club that has been seriously spending is the one that had a registration ban and therefore a bit of cash from the previous windows. Everyone else seems stuck in the same area and why would United be an endless pit of money, no other club is and they all act accordingly,
Damn JP, didn’t have you down as a Glazer/Woodward sympathiser.
 

Chesterlestreet

Man of the crowd
Joined
Oct 19, 2012
Messages
19,566
When you do neither of these things, the only conclusion is that you are incompetent because you do not optimize your own revenues and also do not optimize the quality of the product, as you put it.
A common enough theory (among fans) is that while Malcolm Glazer himself was a shrewd business man, his kids do not necessarily possess anywhere near the same acumen.

One might speculate (for the hell of it, more than anything - as it's all hypothetical) that Uncle Malc would have realized that simply replacing Fergie with anybody else wouldn't be sufficient, and that he might have initiated certain fundamental changes (with regard to the club's "structure") that his offspring certainly did not initiate: they basically carried on in the same vein (but without Fergie).

ETA Uncle Malc died within a year of Fergie retiring - and his hands-on influence as owner probably wasn't that great for a while before he kicked the bucket.
 

Fosu-Mens

Full Member
Joined
Apr 11, 2016
Messages
4,101
Location
Fred | 2019/20 Performances
Owners/executive boards will always be the ones Oking large expenditures, it's a weird point that journalists have put in fans heads.
Dependent on the size of the expenditure. I agree that the transfers like Sancho, Pogba etc would need to be passed through the owners as it would be equialent to 20-30% of the revenue as a comparison, however as long as it is paid with the clubs own money and not external investment, it should not be an issue (not specifically talking about Sancho deal but in general).
 

LawCharltonBest

Enjoys watching fox porn
Joined
May 17, 2012
Messages
15,555
Location
Salford
From the Smalling thread..

How are people going to feel when we end this transfer window with a net spend of £0?
 

GiddyUp

Full Member
Joined
Apr 11, 2015
Messages
4,917
We're simply a finished club with these cretins running us.

We will make Liverpool's drought look like a fecking joke
Owned by trailer park barons and run by a banker that likely doesn't watch any football outside of United games. Without the right manager or players this club is fecked because off the pitch the game is passing us by. I would be more happy with Van Dar Sar than any player or manager at this point. Woodward out and we can move forward.