Pogba & Fernandes in the same midfield

Pogba's new role in this system is a regista, and he roams at the back and provides the long passes while sucking in closing down center midfielders to open up the gap so that Bruno can be left free. I think OGS is intending him to turn into Pirlo.
The biggest issue now I think is his lack of match fitness, because he is getting closed down very quickly and opposition players seem to knock him off his feet quite easily. Going past one or two center midfields has always been in his greatest strength. Not sure why it is not the case now, and I suspect that it could be his lack of match fitness and how his fitness has been impacted by his coronavirus diagnosis.
 
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fps said:
Oh Pogba is held back wherever he plays by something or other. He isn’t fully fit right now but honestly it’s like he gets moved one foot to the left and suddenly people defend him because he isn’t in his best position. He is a highlights player, a moments player. He is not a 90 minutes player.
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A highlight player should play for highlights reels. Not in the current very deep position where high percentage passing is needed. It's McT, Matic, Fred, Maguire or Lindelof's job. Pogba cannot/will not/ should not stop trying risky dribbles/passes. So it's best for Man Utd and for OGS to play him higher up the field.
 
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Chief123 said:
Yes I would come to the same conclusion that the base behind him has never been good enough throughout his whole time at Utd. We’ve just had terrible defenders one after another which we then blame on Pogba for not being a very good defensive midfielder. Put a Van Dijk behind Pogba and he suddenly becomes one of the best midfielders in the world.
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Well we can say its illness, or his teammates or any other reason but at some point he has to least bear at least some responsibility.
 
FahadiHossein said:
Pogba's new role in this system is a regista, and he roams at the back and provides the long passes while sucking in closing down center midfielders to open up the gap so that Bruno can be left free. I think OGS is intending him to turn into Pirlo.
The biggest issue now I think is his lack of match fitness, because he is getting closed down very quickly and opposition players seem to knock him off his feet quite easily. Going past one or two center midfields has always been in his greatest strength. Not sure why it is not the case now, and I suspect that it could be his lack of match fitness and how his fitness has been impacted by his coronavirus diagnosis.
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Yeah good post. He's learning a new role. In fact, for the first time in his career he's being given a proper, useful role in a team. Let's hope he makes a success of it.
 
JohnnyKills said:
Yeah good post. He's learning a new role. In fact, for the first time in his career he's being given a proper, useful role in a team. Let's hope he makes a success of it.
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Yes, I also agree with this. Just got to get him fit and firing and he will play great at least some of the time. He has the skill set. Consistency has been his problem but perhaps a lot of that is linked to his physical condition. In his new role he can be very complimenting to Bruno. May turn out to be a master stroke.
 
I wonder if there are any major lingering effects from Covid on Pogba. Alot of people have breathing issues even after it goes away.

He looks well off the pace. You can see he is trying to pull things off but the legs aren't there to do it.

Hopefully will improve as he adds minutes. He will get back to the form we saw after he came back from injury.
 
Pogba shouldn't be judged on his few games of this season and coming off the back of Covid but it's genuinely hard to pick out a consistent run of games for the club where Pogba's looked like the player we should have gotten back from Juve (other than that run of Ole's first ten matches where he looked brilliant). As midfield partnerships go I''m trying to remember them all from 16-17 season to now;

Fellani and Pogba; Didn't work. Think everyone was a bit surprised Jose went with those two initially.
Herrera, Pogba, Fellaini, slightly better but not exactly world beating.
Matic and Pogba- didn't work. There were frequent complaints of Matic being left exposed in the midfield.
Matic, Pogba, and Herrera- The best I've seen Pogba play. He was the most attacking of the three and looked at his best.
Mctominay and Pogba- Unfair maybe as they didn't play together that often but it's looked a naff combination whenever I've seen it.

I haven't really seen enough of the Bruno, Pogba (+1) midfield to form an opinion but it seems like people are saying it's not working well. It also seems to be a bit reminiscent of the Lampard and Gerrard thing for England.
 
wylodyka said:
A highlight player should play for highlights reels. Not in the current very deep position where high percentage passing is needed. It's McT, Matic, Fred, Maguire or Lindelof's job. Pogba cannot/will not/ should not stop trying risky dribbles/passes. So it's best for Man Utd and for OGS to play him higher up the field.
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For me his best moments as a player I can recall are him getting a ball somewhere right in the centre on a turnover or against a high line and pinging a ball between the lines. Furthermore up against packed defences I don’t really really remember him doing much. He’s also not as good at shooting as I thought he would become.
 
fps said:
For me his best moments as a player I can recall are him getting a ball somewhere right in the centre on a turnover or against a high line and pinging a ball between the lines. Furthermore up against packed defences I don’t really really remember him doing much. He’s also not as good at shooting as I thought he would become.
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thats because you dont see him high up much now. when he is in the last 3rd he does create chances. In his first season yes he was shooting all the time and it shown he isnt that good at it
 
Looking at the highlights of this game and Fernandes was really poor defensively for nearly all of Brighton’s chances. He was near the man who got the chance just ball watching on most.

Im just not convinced that you can have both Pogba and Fernandes in the same midfield and have any defensive stability.
 
It could work with someone like Gattuso or Makelele behind them, not with past it Matic. I think DM is the biggest issue in our team.
 
Classical Mechanic said:
Looking at the highlights of this game and Fernandes was really poor defensively for nearly all of Brighton’s chances. He was near the man who got the chance just ball watching on most.

Im just not convinced that you can have both Pogba and Fernandes in the same midfield and have any defensive stability.
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Maybe a 4-2-3-1 isn't right for the squad all the time. Perhaps Ole needs to switch to another formation, like 4-2-2-2 to get the best out of them.

rest one of rashford Greenwood or martial since only 2 forward positions available, bring in a 2nd midfielder to be with Matic and stay behind pogba and fernandes... defense remains the same.

is there any reason Ole doesn't try Pogba + Fernandes as AM's for just one game? Too risky defensively? No formation with 2 AM's is efficient with our players? What is the reason?
 
Problem with Pogba is he doesn’t fit the system Ole wants to play, as much as I want Pogba to succeed for us, it’s not going to happen in the position he’s playing at the moment unless the whole team is playing well. He would need a beast of a CDM ala peak Makelele or Kante next to him to make it work. Matic is our best CDM and they can’t work it out in the double pivot.

For me, if we stay with 4231 we need 2 of Matic, VDB, Fred and McTominay in the double pivot (and I’m hoping VDB can play there but not seen enough of him). Pogba would have to be benched and utilised to cover Bruno and also Rashford and Greenwood as I think he could play those roles if needed. If he comes in and performs better than someone then he stays in the team simple. That way we have plenty of rotation in midfield and attack and we can concentrate on defensive solidity which is our issues at the minute.

We could always change our formation but that cause issues elsewhere on the pitch.
 
Eli Zee said:
Maybe a 4-2-3-1 isn't right for the squad all the time. Perhaps Ole needs to switch to another formation, like 4-2-2-2 to get the best out of them.

rest one of rashford Greenwood or martial since only 2 forward positions available, bring in a 2nd midfielder to be with Matic and stay behind pogba and fernandes... defense remains the same.

is there any reason Ole doesn't try Pogba + Fernandes as AM's for just one game? Too risky defensively? No formation with 2 AM's is efficient with our players? What is the reason?
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Matic isn’t mobile enough for that to work unfortunately. We don’t really have a player to make that formation work
 
Posh Red said:
Matic isn’t mobile enough for that to work unfortunately. We don’t really have a player to make that formation work
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Southampton make 4222 work with Romeu in the team, and he's no more mobile than Matic. Would also be keen to see Ole try 352 again, not sure if anyones fit to play the wingback roles at the moment though
 
JohnnyKills said:
Yeah good post. He's learning a new role. In fact, for the first time in his career he's being given a proper, useful role in a team. Let's hope he makes a success of it.
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If he was a returning journeyman or relatively old youngster who'd finally made it etc your sentiments might be applicable. But to say the above about a 90 million quid 'world class' supposed talisman demonstrates the mess Pogba and our team selection are in.
 
Are they really in the same midfield though? In a three they have very set defined roles and Pogba has shown he can't play any other role with any effect than the 10 role that Bruno is occupying. Bruno has played it and it fits the team much better than Pogba has ever had in his time here. Pogba in the other two midfield roles has looked varying levels of pointless.

I think if we're not just phasing Pogba out at the end of his contract then we should probably be buying the absoulte best top drawer defensive midfielder who can defend two positions if they're going to continue playing in the same team. The DM and then Pogba and Bruno forward creating.

This is the problem with jamming as many overvalued and overpaid players into the team over the last 6 years as possible. You end up with these gaudy combinations that don't work and nobody having the balls to just bin out players that need the bin.
 
Doesn't work with the 2 of them. Both are too indisciplined with their positioning. One we could maybe get away with but not 2.
 
Eli Zee said:
Maybe a 4-2-3-1 isn't right for the squad all the time. Perhaps Ole needs to switch to another formation, like 4-2-2-2 to get the best out of them.

rest one of rashford Greenwood or martial since only 2 forward positions available, bring in a 2nd midfielder to be with Matic and stay behind pogba and fernandes... defense remains the same.

is there any reason Ole doesn't try Pogba + Fernandes as AM's for just one game? Too risky defensively? No formation with 2 AM's is efficient with our players? What is the reason?
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Would certainly be worth trying with VDB and Fred behind them. Both mobile players.
 
Pogba has had so much time to fully establish himself and apart from about 6 matches last season has failed miserably to do so. He gives the ball away, he is lazy at getting back and always looks for the hollywood ball. I would put Van Beek with Fernandes myself, this would give us more go forward and energy.
 
ghaliboy said:
Pogba has shown he can't play any other role with any effect than the 10 role that Bruno is occupying.
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Yeah, he wasn't very good there either. He has a very tantalizing quality about him, that whenever you see him play anywhere on the pitch it just feels like while it's not working in this position, he would certainly be perfect somewhere else.

Players of his talent 'own' a spot, make it theirs and get a team built around them. It's quite telling that even after all these years we're still trying to figure out what kind of midfielder he is.
 
Jaqen H'ghar said:
Yeah, he wasn't very good there either. He has a very tantalizing quality about him, that whenever you see him play anywhere on the pitch it just feels like while it's not working in this position, he would certainly be perfect somewhere else.

Players of his talent 'own' a spot, make it theirs and get a team built around them. It's quite telling that even after all these years we're still trying to figure out what kind of midfielder he is.
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I'm not so sure. Almost every time he has played the left side of a midfield three, which he will tell you he prefers the most, he has excelled. During Mourinho's first season when we went on an unbeaten streak he played there. During the Europa league final that's also where he played and scored a goal. In the 18/19 season during Ole's initial streak it was also in this position he played in but he had the license to stay forward with Herrera and Matic behind him (so he started in the left side of midfield 3 but pushed up rather than starting up there).

If we just pulled Fernandes back a bit and had Pogba push up so that they were even. With Matic behind him it would work. I think it would make our entire team a bit more balanced than we are currently doing. With 4-2-3-1 you pretty much always know that we're going to feed the ball to Fernandes from midfield and it makes it easier to mark him out. You can make the formation work like Bayern do, because when Kimmich (or Thiago in CL) played as the 6 and needed options ahead of him, Muller would drop back with Goretza at times to give him the options.
 
3KDré said:
I'm not so sure. Almost every time he has played the left side of a midfield three, which he will tell you he prefers the most, he has excelled. During Mourinho's first season when we went on an unbeaten streak he played there. During the Europa league final that's also where he played and scored a goal. In the 18/19 season during Ole's initial streak it was also in this position he played in but he had the license to stay forward with Herrera and Matic behind him (so he started in the left side of midfield 3 but pushed up rather than starting up there).

If we just pulled Fernandes back a bit and had Pogba push up so that they were even. With Matic behind him it would work. I think it would make our entire team a bit more balanced than we are currently doing. With 4-2-3-1 you pretty much always know that we're going to feed the ball to Fernandes from midfield and it makes it easier to mark him out. You can make the formation work like Bayern do, because when Kimmich (or Thiago in CL) played as the 6 and needed options ahead of him, Muller would drop back with Goretza at times to give him the options.
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I think the majority would agree that his best performances have been from an 8 position on the left of the midfield (myself included), but even those weren't consistent enough. He wasn't interested in the defensive duties of a box to box midfielder, and the chances created for the front three were not as consistent as we needed them to be. So even then many called for pushing him up into the ten position to make use of his creative abilities.

This is kind of the point. We have a potential world class player in the side, and even though we all have watched him, we differ greatly on what his best position is, and what's holding him back. Most other players you have a very clear idea of where they play best, because it's obvious when you see them play there, and it's consistent enough there's very little room for doubt.

With Pogba it's not that he does an OK job wherever you play him but shines in a certain spot, it's that he leaves a lot to be desired while doing enough to convince that the talent is there.
 
I think ole's lack of flexibility is holding back the potential of our best first 11.

We could go - 433 with Fernandes as a false 9
--rb----cb---cb---lb
------------matic
-----De beek-pogba-
Green/Rash-fernandes-martial/rash

Or 3511
---------------cb-cb-cb
------------------matic
Williams-de beek-pogba-shaw
-------------Fernandes
‐--------martial/rash/green

Both formations not only fits both pogba and Fernandes in the same team well but also fits in de beek as well and at the same time gives matic good protection from being too exposed
 
Jaqen H'ghar said:
Yeah, he wasn't very good there either. He has a very tantalizing quality about him, that whenever you see him play anywhere on the pitch it just feels like while it's not working in this position, he would certainly be perfect somewhere else.

Players of his talent 'own' a spot, make it theirs and get a team built around them. It's quite telling that even after all these years we're still trying to figure out what kind of midfielder he is.
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My opinion is that he as a player with his ability doesn't work in this league. This league is full of smaller stronger nuggety players who will just get in and under a player like Pogba and the obvious chess move in his second season for him was "how do you combat this? Be better, fast and work harder... Go.." and it was blatantly obvious he never solved this equation and has been battling it ever since.

He's definitely a weird one, but it boils back down to my other point that once you get players like this on stupid amounts of money to the value that they produce on the pitch, at a club run in the background as poorly as United then there is little chance of doing the correct thing and binning them out straight away. That also has a required flow on effect to the rest of the squad making them raise their game for fear of the same treatment when the standards drop.

What you're describing is Bruno in a nutshell and it was a real "oh right, this is exactly the type of player we need at 10". Pogba playing subsequent roles behind the no10# has been a whole raft of "I don't see the point", for me anyway.
 
Pogba and Bruno are the problem. I’m almost certain that Matic dribbled past more people than them in the last game while also retaining the ball better.
My opinion on Bruno is on hold for a year or so

As for Pogba, he is like the David Luiz of midfielders. Obviously talented footballer but doesn’t work in any system because he lacks what is important to play CAM at high level which is playing in tight spaces. He also can’t play CM effectively because his ball retention is poor with poor defensive awareness.

The bigger question is which one is he likely to solve between ball retention and playing in tight spaces? Personally I think neither but if I were to guess I would say ball retention which is why he is better of playing CM not CAM.
 
Classical Mechanic said:
Looking at the highlights of this game and Fernandes was really poor defensively for nearly all of Brighton’s chances. He was near the man who got the chance just ball watching on most.

Im just not convinced that you can have both Pogba and Fernandes in the same midfield and have any defensive stability.
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You can, but just not with the system we play. Playing Pogba alongside a holding midfielder, has been shown numerous times not to be effective, but it's something managers are persisting with for reasons unknown. He does have the odd game there where he does well, but he's just not disciplined enough to play it consistently. Move up up the pitch and to the left and he's far better.
Aouar would be far better in the role United are trying to shoehorn Pogba into, I'd be happy if United sold Pogba and we got him to take his position, not a better player, just more suited to the team.
 
Chief123 said:
It’s not the best time to make that assessment when Pogba clearly isn’t match fit and looks miles off the pace.

There wasn’t many issues in the run of games since project restart when they both played together. Pogba isn’t really the issue. The issue is our spine is so suspect to the counter attack due to lack of pace in Matic, Lindelof and Maguire. It’s not the best base to have behind Pogba and Bruno.
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You never should have relied on defender to cover for your MF. There should be enough balance in the team, and BTW, why your CB needs to rush forward when your MF are dominating the field?

A fit Pogba, can play along side with Bruno, as demonstrated in the re-start season, you just don't use him as DMF. What makes Pogba special is his ability, and be able to play with different style per instruction. Against weaker teams he can roam forward more often, against stronger opponents, he can help to defend. Ideally Pogba has the right stuff to change his game according to tactics, problem is with Pogba himself.

So to answer the thread - can Pogba and Bruno play together - answer is yes against weaker teams, so 2/3 of the time, no problem. Can you deploy both against strong teams, answer is depending on whether you have confidence in him to follow the script and have discipline, with is 50-50 IMO.
 
OrcaFat said:
Yes, I also agree with this. Just got to get him fit and firing and he will play great at least some of the time. He has the skill set. Consistency has been his problem but perhaps a lot of that is linked to his physical condition. In his new role he can be very complimenting to Bruno. May turn out to be a master stroke.
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I hope so but i m afraid he would never be a Thiago/Pirlo.
 
ghaliboy said:
My opinion is that he as a player with his ability doesn't work in this league. This league is full of smaller stronger nuggety players who will just get in and under a player like Pogba and the obvious chess move in his second season for him was "how do you combat this? Be better, fast and work harder... Go.." and it was blatantly obvious he never solved this equation and has been battling it ever since.

He's definitely a weird one, but it boils back down to my other point that once you get players like this on stupid amounts of money to the value that they produce on the pitch, at a club run in the background as poorly as United then there is little chance of doing the correct thing and binning them out straight away. That also has a required flow on effect to the rest of the squad making them raise their game for fear of the same treatment when the standards drop.

What you're describing is Bruno in a nutshell and it was a real "oh right, this is exactly the type of player we need at 10". Pogba playing subsequent roles behind the no10# has been a whole raft of "I don't see the point", for me anyway.
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Good points.

It's frustrating when comparing him to Bruno, because Pogba is bigger, stronger and more skillful,but determination, decision making and effort give Bruno the edge.
 
DevilRed said:
I wonder if there are any major lingering effects from Covid on Pogba. Alot of people have breathing issues even after it goes away.

He looks well off the pace. You can see he is trying to pull things off but the legs aren't there to do it.

Hopefully will improve as he adds minutes. He will get back to the form we saw after he came back from injury.
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He looked totally spent when taken off. His eyes just looked blank. He's definitely suffering fatigue at that stage. I totally blame Ole for playing him when he's obviously not fit enough.
 
I think both Bruno and Pogba are good in creating goals and key pass, but bad in losing possession. Biggest difference between the 2 though, is that one is great at taking penalty, the other is totally suck at it.
 
I'll like to see us try a 4222 with both players playing behind two of Rashford,Martial and Greenwood.Pogba in the double pivot doesn't work,its like using an F1 vehicle on the street
 
If he sticks with this formation the only way it works is with pogba and Bruno swapped around. Pogba is at attacker at his best, he should be in the #10 role. Bruno had better work rate and better defensive skills so should play in the #8 role. Either that or drop pogba for Donny
 
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