I am waiting for 1 more non clay slam for Nadal. Win that and takes a big big stride towards the GOAT spot.
At least Federer is not undisputed GOAT anymore.
At least Federer is not undisputed GOAT anymore.
Greatest mens tennis player of all time
- Thread starter Raoul
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He's the greatest single court player of all time and it isn't even close.
Difference between him vs anyone else who's played on clay is huge
Difference between him vs anyone else who's played on clay is huge
It's not just about clay. Don't think anyone else has come close to that level of dominance on any single surface. It's amazing!
That dominance is actually a point in his favour instead of discounting him somewhat by calling just clay GOAT. 7-1 vs Djokovic and 6-0 vs Federer at FO. That's insane against two other GOATs of game. Those two on the other hand haven't dominated him same way on their stronger surfaces.
Even if Nadal wins the next 10 FO, I cannot put him ahead Federer (or even Djokovic). To do so, he need to win on other surfaces.
Saying that, Rafa on clay is far better than the other two on their favorite surfaces. If you have to choose one player to play your life in a surface of your choice, it is Rafa on clay. The way he has dominated FO is very unlikely to happen again. Next year, he might win as many FO as Sampras has won Grand Slams in total which is beyond insane.
Saying that, Rafa on clay is far better than the other two on their favorite surfaces. If you have to choose one player to play your life in a surface of your choice, it is Rafa on clay. The way he has dominated FO is very unlikely to happen again. Next year, he might win as many FO as Sampras has won Grand Slams in total which is beyond insane.
Federer's dominance came in a period of transition with no other competitors. That's why he isn't the GOAT. Beating up Hewitt and Roddick is great but not GOAT. Both Nadal and Djokovic have a better claim at GOAT.
Federer's record against both Nadal and Djokovic is indicative of the same.
Federer's record against both Nadal and Djokovic is indicative of the same.
Remove the hard court slams for Federer, he's down to 9.
Remove the hard court slams for Djokovic, he's down to 7.
They're just lucky 2 of the slams are played on identical courts, and the other (grass) is just a more extreme version of HC.
Yeah exactly! The argument works both ways. If he manages to win a couple more on other surfaces, he'll seal it.
Forget these 3, he is the real GOAT
It was so much fun watching him growing up and it really is incredible that Nadal will match his haul in just one GS. Just drives home the level of dominance Rafa has displayed in the French Open.This why Borg deserves some recognition in the debate. 11 slams by the age of 26 when he suddenly retired - 6 on clay - 5 on grass . All the while didn't bother to play in the Aussie at all (except one year). Had the same amount of French titles as Nadal had at 26, when Borg walked away from the game.
Borg was pretty good as well. ↑
As good as Rafa, Djoko and Federer are, probably the most unplayable tennis I've ever seen was from Wawrinka, during his hot streak.
Federer’s favorite was grass. Remove it, he has 12.
He has a good case already imo. Whoever has the most slams always does, and Nadal has a head to head lead over Fed. That said, I get the feeling Djokovic will finish with the most slams since he's still playing at a high enough level to win the the three non-French slams next year and possibly into 2022. I think Fed will retire after Wimbledon next year.
Before my time, but from what I read about him, he could have won 20+ if he bothered to play in AO and didn’t retire that early.
They also won one French open which should go against them in this debate. But for some reason that gets ignored. Clay is the toughest surface to play. You can’t serve your way out of trouble, slower courts and points are longer. Nadal just makes it look easy.
Nadal needs just one AO with a French open and then there’s no debate as he would be the first to win 2 slams on each surface. But like Nadal at the FO, Djokovic is very dominant there.
Yeah and the Aussie was still played on grass at the time when Borg was dominant at Wimbledon. He would have won a few Aussie's for sure if he was bothered to travel there year.
Both Federer and Djokovic also have a huge chunk of their Slams on one surface. Maybe we should look at their records outside of just Hard Courts too if we do so with Rafa?
Anyway, I've often said Novak will be GOAT and not Rafa but this only clay lazy comments don't make sense. Nadal has beaten Federer and Djokovic across all surfaces and at their favorite surfaces while the pair of them have one win vs Rafa at RG and that too a Rafa at his absolute worst since he began playing.
IF he ever gets this, I don't think there will be much left to debate but I don't see him winning it while all three of Thiem, Federer and Novak are around. He's easily better than everyone else on the surface but it's still a tough ask to beat those three back to back in Australia.
Federer's 20 are pretty evenly distributed among two surfaces and three of the four slams.
Don’t discount Rafa at the US open. Novak last reached a Us open final in 2016. Nadal has won two since then. A pandemic stopped him from possibly winning another one.
That's a big, contestable claim. Could easily say that grass is tougher because it requires more technical skill and doesn't favour grinders.
Maybe if we had two clay Slams Nadal's would be more evenly distributed across Slams as well? All three players have a majority of their Slams on one surface and that's absolutely fine.
Novak is considered the best Hard Court player of this last decade and yet, somehow, it gets overlooked that Nadal is the most successful US Open player this last ten years. He's won FOUR which is so impressive. He's also missed 1 or 2 through injury/covid. He's also reached 3 or 4 finals at AO that he's lost to go along with the one he's won. He's great across all surfaces but just out of this world on the clay.
Nadal's USO record is quite good. It is last slam of year, you need to be in good physical condition and he is only 1 behind the players with most slams at USO in open era.
How do you see Djokovic physically to reach 20 or pass it? Nadal is with the reserve deposit but Nole is not a kid either
The problem with many when it comes to G.O.A.T.s is that people look at the stats, with no consideration given to the style of play, years of playing, and many many other variables (Also comparing different eras is ridiculous. A past era will always be at a disadvanatage to a current era.
If it's about stats, Maradona wouldn't be in the top 20, heck possibly not even top 50, football players of all time!
If it's about stats, Maradona wouldn't be in the top 20, heck possibly not even top 50, football players of all time!
I think he'll get there but his stupidity cost him at the US open already and I think he would've won Wimbledon again this year too.
I think he's a lock for Australia and then strong favourite for Wimbledon and US open again.
More technical skill? There’s a reason why someone brainless like Kyrgios doesn’t bother on clay because he knows on grass he can serve his way out of trouble.
Raionic and Anderson would never make finals at the French. They barely make it past the first week. Even Isner made it to a semi at Wimbledon. Being a big server is not technical skill.
I still fancy Djokovic to have the most by the end of his career. I still put Rafa first of all time though.
The reason people cite stats and numbers is because they tangible. Style of play is completely subjective.
Yes Djokovic will be strong favourite on non-clay slams in next 2 years, injury permitting. Although Thiem came close on AO this year and he will be big challenge on hard courts. Thiem will also be slight favourite on clay vs Djokovic.
The drop after these 3 is going to be huge. Thinking about watching likes of Tsitsipas and Zverev at later stages combining good with crap and throwing tantrums on the court makes me sad.
I've always been more of a Federen fan due to his style, but I'll happily put Nadal alongside him. Two greatest tennis players ever. Don't care if Djokovic ends up winning more grand slams, can't stand the cnut and don't like seeing him play. I'm biased like that.
What's the greatest tennis match of all time? For me personally, that 2008 Wimbledon final between Nadal and Federer.
To be fair Tsitipas had chances vs Djokovic the other day in first two sets.
As for Zverev, he should be thankful that Djokovic got disqualified as Djokovic would have torn apart his pathetic second serve.
I liked the look of Sinner the other day. Ruud on clay could trouble some players.
You never know what will happen after they retire. In the early 2000s, I remember thinking Tennis would suffer when Sampras and Agassi retired and ceded slams to the likes of Hewitt, Roddick, Safin, and Ivanesevic - and then literally the same year as Agassi won his last slam Federer emerged to win Wimbledon, then the following spring Nadal emerged to win his first French. For all we know, the players who will be a part of the GOAT convo in 20 years are only just turning pro now.
In that case, I hope he´ll have a case of lack of motivation / laziness / mental blockage, and won´t become obsessed with reaching that number
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Of course serving requires skill. As Djokovic demonstrated today, if you can't serve well you'll struggle in tennis -- regardless of surface.
For every Isner, I can point to a grinder like Gauston Gaudio who managed to win the French but did feck all elsewhere.
2012 AO final (even though Nadal sadly lost). Extreme sustained quality.
In terms of pure shotmaking, some of Wawrinka's wins are hard to beat though.
Nadal has won 13 out of 20 grand slam tournaments at one tournament and on one surface. He’s certainly the greatest clay court player but not the greatest. I’d put Federer above both him and Novak (particularly given the Dr Fuente stuff and Djokovic’s Farah-like ascent from good to winning machine).