Teacher beheaded near Paris after showing cartoons of Prophet Muhammad

[Foxbatt]

It's double standards anywhere. Where Mahthir does it or Macron does it. The issue now is not the cartoons. Yes the poor teacher got brutally murdered because of a cartoon. That's extremely wrong. The murderer was shot dead and rightly so. Anyone who murders or injures anyone should be held to account. No one sane is going to object to this.
What makes the matter worse is Macron interjecting into this and putting the cartoons on government buildings. That shows government support not for the free speech but for humiliation of Muslims. All Muslims.
Violence should never be encouraged in any way. It's better for all Muslims not to respond with violence but with their cheque books if they want to respond.
This is just the beginning of this in my view.

 

[2mufc0]

For example, a tiny, fringe French magazine like Charlie Hebdo publishes satirical cartoons of religious content. The vast majority of religious Christians and Jews just roll their eyes and move on. It's not even a major topic of conversation, if they don't like it, they don't read it. Seemingly a very large number of Muslims though (majority? I don't know) seem to consider this a highly inappropriate attack on religion.

This wasn't the case though? Macron ordered the cartoons to be projected onto government buildings, was there a need to do this? There are plenty of other ways to make the point.

 

[coolredwine]

This wasn't the case though? Macron ordered the cartoons to be projected onto government buildings, was there a need to do this? There are plenty of other ways to make the point.

Except he didn’t.

 

[Foxbatt]

I have to agree with 2mufc on this. This has got nothing to do with the cartoons anymore. It's got all to do with Macron now.
That said humiliation and insults against the Prophet is nothing new. History tells us that he was humiliated and insulted many times during his time. He didn't do anything about it and neither did his followers. Understandable that Muslims would get extremely angry but violence should not be the way forward. I don't think even Erdogan is calling for violence. He is calling for boycott of French products and he has the right to call for it too.
Some people are mixing up the cartoons issue and the French Governments support for the cartoons to be displayed. Two different issues.

 

[utdalltheway]

The idea that some Muslims should get mad enough to murder because of some cartoons or French support for the cartoons is frankly .

 

[RoadTrip]

I have to agree with 2mufc on this. This has got nothing to do with the cartoons anymore. It's got all to do with Macron now.
That said humiliation and insults against the Prophet is nothing new. History tells us that he was humiliated and insulted many times during his time. He didn't do anything about it and neither did his followers. Understandable that Muslims would get extremely angry but violence should not be the way forward. I don't think even Erdogan is calling for violence. He is calling for boycott of French products and he has the right to call for it too.
Some people are mixing up the cartoons issue and the French Governments support for the cartoons to be displayed. Two different issues.

It’s just the usual case where extremists have warped the response via manipulation to get reactions like this to further their cause.

Also about Macron demanding cartoons be projected, is this truly what he did or is this an exaggeration?

 

[MadMike]

This wasn't the case though? Macron ordered the cartoons to be projected onto government buildings, was there a need to do this? There are plenty of other ways to make the point.

Err what? Macron ordered that only after a crazy had lost his head and went into the building to kill the cartoonists. Not before.

Which means a tiny fringe satirical magazine provoked the ire of religious conservatives in the first place. So the point stands.

 

[RoadTrip]

The idea that some Muslims should get mad enough to murder because of some cartoons or French support for the cartoons is frankly .

As I just posted, it’s extremists that have effectively manipulated people into reacting this way. Sure the vast majority of Muslims will be offended but it would generally end there. The problem is if extremists are able to get into the psyche of even one person through propaganda you can end up with these types of reactions.

The real issue is the question of how you fix it. Be weak on extremists and they won’t change their views and you disillusion your population and that leads to more aggression and hatred towards Muslims overall. Be strong and you alienate Muslims and that feeds into the extremism cycle.

 

[coolredwine]

The point i was trying to make is that the french govt can legally ban the cartoons to maintain "public order". The next point i am making is the cartoons can be legally seen as racism and also defamatory and insulting to the "honor of a particular group". The final point i am making is that french law allows "opinions" on religions and therefore people should be free to critique religions.

Having said all of that i see the situation worsening in france and europe, erdogen will milk it politically for his political benefit and so will the far right politicians in europe. Even the islamic terrorists are conservative right wingers living in there eco chamber. I won't be surprised if there's another ethnic cleansing in europe a few decades from now, the left is doomed.

Half of the things can be banned to maintain public order because almost everyone is offended by one thing or the other.

the initial cartoon was anything but racist/discriminatory in nature. Erdogan one can be termed classless/insulting at best. But for Turkish officials to fall over it because of cartoons is downright funny. That’s what CH wanted and they have got it.

 

[fishfingers15]

How does Erdogan even enter in this argument? Murders happened in France anyway.

 

[RoadTrip]

Err what? Macron ordered that only after a crazy had lost his head and went into the building to kill the cartoonists. Not before.

Which means a tiny fringe satirical magazine provoked the ire of religious conservatives in the first place. So the point stands.

I think you’re missing the point. Regardless of whether the act which caused Macron to do this is valid in justifying the action he took, that’s not the only point to consider is it? You have to look at the wider impact and consequence and what it means. It’s not that difficult to appreciate.

 

[coolredwine]

Also about Macron demanding cartoons be projected, is this truly what he did or is this an exaggeration?

Misinformation. Two townhalls in the south projected the cartoon and none of them have anything to do with Macron.

 

[2cents]

How does Erdogan even enter in this argument? Murders happened in France anyway.

Because he is trying to project himself as the guardian of Muslim dignity globally. Just as Khomeini did in 1989.

 

[MadMike]

I have to agree with 2mufc on this. This has got nothing to do with the cartoons anymore. It's got all to do with Macron now.
That said humiliation and insults against the Prophet is nothing new. History tells us that he was humiliated and insulted many times during his time. He didn't do anything about it and neither did his followers. Understandable that Muslims would get extremely angry but violence should not be the way forward. I don't think even Erdogan is calling for violence. He is calling for boycott of French products and he has the right to call for it too.
Some people are mixing up the cartoons issue and the French Governments support for the cartoons to be displayed. Two different issues.

See that's what I'm talking about. Being extremely angry about this, is far FAR from understandable in my view.

Other people making jokes about your religion shouldn't make you mad. Not liking them and rolling your eyes is an understandable and reasonable response. If the majority get angry then a tiny minority will vent that anger. That is a problem.

 

[Bebestation]

I dont mean to be rude by this but do other murders happen in multiracial countries with the murderer shouting out their gods and prophets name?

 

[spontaneus1]

The fact that some Muslims seem more concerned by them being made to look bad than the fact their members of their faith are being radicalised to the extent where they carry out these attacks says a lot to me.

 

[utdalltheway]

As I just posted, it’s extremists that have effectively manipulated people into reacting this way. Sure the vast majority of Muslims will be offended but it would generally end there. The problem is if extremists are able to get into the psyche of even one person through propaganda you can end up with these types of reactions.

The real issue is the question of how you fix it. Be weak on extremists and they won’t change their views and you disillusion your population and that leads to more aggression and hatred towards Muslims overall. Be strong and you alienate Muslims and that feeds into the extremism cycle.

Yeah sane Muslims will be rolling their eyes alright. It’s the crazies you have to fix.
And I’ve no idea how to fix this. Whatever I’d suggest they probably should do the opposite.

 

[MadMike]

I think you’re missing the point. Regardless of whether the act which caused Macron to do this is valid in justifying the action he took, that’s not the only point to consider is it? You have to look at the wider impact and consequence and what it means. It’s not that difficult to appreciate.

No, looking at it again I don't think I'm missing anything. I'm merely interpreting it differently to you. Macron was entirely right (and of course justified) to bring up the problem of deep religious conservativism and how a large part of the Muslim minority interpret the cartoons as attacks on them and their religion. The problem doesn't get solved by ignoring it.

Also as others have pointed out, he didn't order that cartoon projection.

Misinformation. Two townhalls in the south projected the cartoon and none of them have anything to do with Macron.

 

[fishfingers15]

Because he is trying to project himself as the guardian of Muslim dignity globally. Just as Khomeini did in 1989.

He's just being selective about it and even posters here are falling for it hook, line and sinker. How is macron even a problem here? What a farce and thank feck le pen is nothing like Trump

 

[stevoc]

I have to agree with 2mufc on this. This has got nothing to do with the cartoons anymore. It's got all to do with Macron now.
That said humiliation and insults against the Prophet is nothing new. History tells us that he was humiliated and insulted many times during his time. He didn't do anything about it and neither did his followers. Understandable that Muslims would get extremely angry but violence should not be the way forward. I don't think even Erdogan is calling for violence. He is calling for boycott of French products and he has the right to call for it too.
Some people are mixing up the cartoons issue and the French Governments support for the cartoons to be displayed. Two different issues.

No innocent people are being murdered and decapitated that’s the issue that everyone especially Muslim leaders should be focusing on not the words of a political leader.

Macron hasn’t said anything that should justify people being murdered.

 

[Shark]

France is fecked. Can only hope that countries around Europe that can still prevent this, do so. Including my own.

 

[spontaneus1]

If France didn't want to be the victim of terror attacks its shouldn't have dressed like a slut.

 

[MadMike]

The fact that some Muslims seem more concerned by them being made to look bad than the fact their members of their faith are being radicalised to the extent where they carry out these attacks says a lot to me.

Some are even suggesting they are right in being very very angry about this. Just that the anger shouldn't be crossing over to violence.

Conveniently ignoring that if the majority do get angry about such a non-issue as those cartoons, then a few will surely turn to violence.

 

[Simbo]

The fact that some Muslims seem more concerned by them being made to look bad than the fact their members of their faith are being radicalised to the extent where they carry out these attacks says a lot to me.

Aye, a man walked into a church this morning, grabbed a 70 y/o grandmother as she was attending mass and hacked away at her neck with a blade until he beheaded her. Anybody saying "this is about macron" or pushing to boycott French products is supporting and taking the side of that that man. I don't see any other way about it?

 

[fishfingers15]

What should macron do? Ban the cartoons of Muhammad in France? Will that prevent the killings?

 

[MadMike]

What should macron do? Ban the cartoons of Muhammad in France? Will that prevent the killings?

Allegedly he should be more tolerant and sympathetic as intolerants are murdering innocents. Go figure.

 

[Shane88]

This is ultimately about a very small minority of Muslims and the ruling elite in France wanting to win this so-called argument of freedom of speech and censorship with the combination of murder, toughness, insensitivity, intolerance, and triumphalism. Basically, both sides are just out to prove my dick is bigger than yours. Sadly, this doesn't end well for anybody.

Totally. Cartoons. Beheadings.

Six of one, half a dozen of the other.

 

[UncleBob]

Totally. Cartoons. Beheadings.

Six of one, half a dozen of the other.

 

[Sad Chris]

It‘s frustrating that we still think or believe we could be able to find a solution within our own lifespan. It will not happen, not even close. Just as little as I‘ll be able to get to know all the nice and kind people of different beliefs.

I‘d like to think that religion will be solved and eradicated by evolution but I don‘t think we‘ll be around for anywhere near that long. Reason and logic aren’t things anymore, we‘re back to blind tribalism, even in the modern world as opposed to the place religions would like to keep their followers bound to the darkness.

In my short lifespan I choose not to save any place for debating these pathetic, barbaric crimes. I don‘t care how peaceful you proclaim to be or how many terrible people abuse your faith. Open your bloody eyes and wake the feck up. You are part of a massive problem that isn‘t going away. Stop trying to play down or justify the ridiculous arguments of religious leaders that tolerate or support hate crimes.

If you can‘t see who is wrong here without needing to offer a different angle or pseudo-reasoning, please, just please crawl back under the rock you came from.

 

[utdalltheway]

Totally. Cartoons. Beheadings.

Six of one, half a dozen of the other.

There’s good on both sides.

 

[utdalltheway]

France is fecked. Can only hope that countries around Europe that can still prevent this, do so. Including my own.

Sadly, I’m afraid you might by right.
They made themselves a shitty bed now they have to lie in it.
If the other western countries aren’t taking heed and action then they’re sleepwalking into the same nightmare.

 

[fishfingers15]

Allegedly he should be more tolerant and sympathetic as intolerants are murdering innocents. Go figure.

Surely tolerance and sympathy is not a bad thing. But who should he be tolerant to? Not the murderer surely? He can and should preach for tolerance all around. Is he not doing that?

 

[Foxbatt]

So you are saying that Muslims have no right to be angry? That's ridiculous. Yes they have no right to violence but now Muslims must not get angry because they are showing cartoons of The Prophet?
Macron is right that violence has no place not only in France but in any country because of the cartoons. He is right the extremism should stop.
But he has poured fuel into the fire by supporting the cartoons to be displayed publicly.

 

[UncleBob]

So you are saying that Muslims have no right to be angry? That's ridiculous. Yes they have no right to violence but now Muslims must not get angry because they are showing cartoons of The Prophet?
Macron is right that violence has no place not only in France but in any country because of the cartoons. He is right the extremism should stop.
But he has poured fuel into the fire by supporting the cartoons to be displayed publicly.

Fuel into the fire, christ.

There's no room for allowing mental knobheads to limit the freedom of expression based on a daft religion..

We're in 2020, this whole theme of waging war in the name of religion is somewhat daft.

 

[spontaneus1]

So you are saying that Muslims have no right to be angry? That's ridiculous. Yes they have no right to violence but now Muslims must not get angry because they are showing cartoons of The Prophet?
Macron is right that violence has no place not only in France but in any country because of the cartoons. He is right the extremism should stop.
But he has poured fuel into the fire by supporting the cartoons to be displayed publicly.

Yes. If you are angry over cartoons you are in the wrong. Blasphemy is fine in France. If that's something you have an issue with you are the problem but can't admit it.

 

[MadMike]

Surely tolerance and sympathy is not a bad thing. But who should he be tolerant to? Not the murderer surely? He can and should preach for tolerance all around. Is he not doing that?

He is being tolerant, he's jut not perceived as being tolerant by those who choose to interpret it as an attack on their religion.

When this is happening in France....

(source: BBC)

...he's entirely right in pointing out that it's a particular a religion that has a problem with indoctrination, intolerance and freedom of speech which it needs to solve.

Stating the obvious to everyone fact that we have a problem in our hands, is not an attack or discrimination. Charlie Hebdo cartoons made fun of all religions. But only one community got riled up and angry which resulted in violence from some of their followers.

 

[fishfingers15]

He is being tolerant, he's jut not perceived as being tolerant by those who choose to interpret it as an attack on their religion.

When this is happening in France....

(source: BBC)

...he's entirely right in pointing out that it's a particular a religion that has a problem with indoctrination, intolerance and freedom of speech which it needs to solve.

Stating the obvious to everyone fact that we have a problem in our hands, is not an attack or discrimination. Charlie Hebdo cartoons made fun of all religions. But only one community got riled up and angry which resulted in violence from some of their followers.

Gotcha.. still confused why Erdogan waded in and why is no one going after him for fueling this fire

 

[Simbo]

So you are saying that Muslims have no right to be angry? That's ridiculous. Yes they have no right to violence but now Muslims must not get angry because they are showing cartoons of The Prophet?
Macron is right that violence has no place not only in France but in any country because of the cartoons. He is right the extremism should stop.
But he has poured fuel into the fire by supporting the cartoons to be displayed publicly.

Angry over what? Murderous evil acts carried out in the name of their religion? or Cartoons?

If the latter then its difficult because I'm not sure having a "right to be angry" is even a concept. Anger is an emotion and has nothing to do with human rights. We can only have our opinion on whether they should or shouldn't be angry over cartoons, and of course they shouldn't, because that would be irrational and stupid.

 

[utdalltheway]

Children are expected to be better at controlling themselves. Why can't we expect the same of the few muslims - that you can't lose your shit over some feckin cartoons?

 

[Asger]

So you are saying that Muslims have no right to be angry? That's ridiculous. Yes they have no right to violence but now Muslims must not get angry because they are showing cartoons of The Prophet?
Macron is right that violence has no place not only in France but in any country because of the cartoons. He is right the extremism should stop.
But he has poured fuel into the fire by supporting the cartoons to be displayed publicly.

Angry about a guy that never existed anyway! It’s sad how all those religions have done to this Earth!