Refs & VAR 2020/2021 Discussion

[marktan]

I was in favour of VAR but I think I'm against it now. Too many bs offsides, handballs, slight contacts in the box, it's just not really enjoyable seeing bs decisions in every game and I'd rather just return to the previous situation where there was the occasional bad decision but things were done in real time with people's eyes.

 

[arnie_ni]

The main thing that shows people’s inability to grasp the rules that they’re complaining about is the fact that they’re complaining about shirt sleeves being offside and then claiming that the offside rule should change.

If you think that it’s bollocks that a shirt sleeve can be offside, complain about the handball rule, because that’s what’s caused this. Unless you want the offside rule to be that you can be offside by any goal-scoring part of the body apart from the shirt sleeve, the cock, the arse and the left ear, which would make it even more of a clusterfeck, then the new handball law is the one you should have an issue with. But then again, everyone was complaining about goals being disallowed for hitting shoulders, Bailly conceding a penalty off his shoulder etc, so then we’re back to square one.

We've said we want it to be feet vs feet

 

[arnie_ni]

Whats happening now? All the football guys on my twitter going of

 

[MattofManchester]

Maybe we should implement a mic on refs for VAR decisions like they have in rugby.
Also, feel like there needs to be margin for error, especially for offside. Similar to cricket on LBW decisions, if the gap is miniscule, as in under a certain number of centimetres, the original decision stands.

Handballs and penalties should also allow VAR to use common sense.

Players are going down for breaths of air ffs. Also seems like players are trying to kick the ball at the arms of opposition players.

It's becoming a very despicable game.

 

[Annihilate Now!]

Whats happening now? All the football guys on my twitter going of

Aston Villa had a goal disallowed for offside... Due to Barkley standing in front (ish) of Leno. Probably the right call because - even though Leno would never have saved it - the ref isn't allowed to predict that.

 

[Rossa]

Liverpool may not spend that much on players, but how much do they spend on the FA?
Sterling gets nothing, but on the counter seconds later, Mane is awarded a pen for an identical challenge. Where is VAR?
Later in the match, Mane tackles from behind on a counter, gets nothing. Then moments later, Laporte gets a yellow for a 50/50 duel on Salah. Refs are atrocious one match after another. I think VAR has only made it worse.

 

[Anustart89]

We've said we want it to be feet vs feet

And then a guy scores with his head and you're going to complain that his head was offside and he scored with it.

 

[arnie_ni]

And then a guy scores with his head and you're going to complain that his head was offside and he scored with it.

Ive explained why i think feet vs feet is best, as have others, its all in the last couple of pages.

 

[arnie_ni]

Aston Villa had a goal disallowed for offside... Due to Barkley standing in front (ish) of Leno. Probably the right call because - even though Leno would never have saved it - the ref isn't allowed to predict that.

Similar to Everton vs us last season then

 

[UncleBob]

Since we're talking so highly of VAR in other countries

Ball is hammered at goal from what, 7 yards out, player tries to move his arm into his body while leaning into the path of the shot to block it, penalty and a second yellow card

 

[Adam-Utd]

And then a guy scores with his head and you're going to complain that his head was offside and he scored with it.

You can’t really gain an advantage by your head or your arm leaning over the line though. The offside rule was brought in to stop goal hanging, it was never meant to be dealt with in Millimetres.

bamfords goal is perfect example of this, his feet are 2 yards onside but because he’s leaning forward and his arm is stretched out he’s deemed “offside” but how on earth is he gaining any advantage from that? He didn’t. That should never be given offside and the rules need a big rework.

 

[Snow]

Since we're talking so highly of VAR in other countries

Ball is hammered at goal from what, 7 yards out, player tries to move his arm into his body while leaning into the path of the shot to block it, penalty and a second yellow card

Yeah but Spain were harsh on these things even before VAR. They're consistent about it. That is a clear penalty according to the rules however. If you're blocking a shot on goal it's always a pen no matter what and results in a straight red, not a second yellow.

 

[Okey]

My opinion is they need to decide on a very narrow list of what VAR can adjudicate. We don't need it for absolutely every decision. Refs and Linos have made marginal calls for ages and we've got on with it. There's howlers that get talked about for years, like England's goal against Germany at the World Cup. Stuff like that should be rooted out by VAR. Absolutely no one in the football world would have had a problem if McGinn's goal stood. Indeed people were wondering what they were checking. It just looks like they're examining every little thing and finding a reason to make a decision or disallow a goal. Not necessary. Let the game flow for goodness sakes!

 

[MikeeMike]

“Do you watch cricket? They have an umpires call which is their allowance, meaning its to close to over ride so they go back to the umpires original decision.”

No words for that illogical drivel.

 

[MikeeMike]

“Handballs and penalties should also allow VAR to use common sense.”

I’m expecting Jeremy Beadle to jump out at any point. “Handballs” and “Penalties” should allow VAR to use common sense?
No words

 

[Withnail]

You can’t really gain an advantage by your head or your arm leaning over the line though. The offside rule was brought in to stop goal hanging, it was never meant to be dealt with in Millimetres.

bamfords goal is perfect example of this, his feet are 2 yards onside but because he’s leaning forward and his arm is stretched out he’s deemed “offside” but how on earth is he gaining any advantage from that? He didn’t. That should never be given offside and the rules need a big rework.

That was so ridiculous. He's only offside because he pointed. If he's not off if he doesn't point then he's not off.

And even then it's only because they changed the handball rule to include the oh-so
-scientific definition of the part of your arm that's normally covered by a t-shirt.

 

[UncleBob]

Yeah but Spain were harsh on these things even before VAR. They're consistent about it. That is a clear penalty according to the rules however. If you're blocking a shot on goal it's always a pen no matter what and results in a straight red, not a second yellow.

It's shit.
Consistently shit

 

[georgipep]

You can’t really gain an advantage by your head or your arm leaning over the line though. The offside rule was brought in to stop goal hanging, it was never meant to be dealt with in Millimetres.

bamfords goal is perfect example of this, his feet are 2 yards onside but because he’s leaning forward and his arm is stretched out he’s deemed “offside” but how on earth is he gaining any advantage from that? He didn’t. That should never be given offside and the rules need a big rework.

When every spectator can re-watch the situation on slow motion replays from multiple angles, there is no other way but to make the offside a factual rule about the body parts that can actually score a goal. You cannot revert back from that because then you have people complaining how a goal was allowed when it was obvious that the part of the body that scored the goal was behind the line.

 

[arnie_ni]

“Do you watch cricket? They have an umpires call which is their allowance, meaning its to close to over ride so they go back to the umpires original decision.”

No words for that illogical drivel.

Not sure what you mean here. What i stated is fact.

 

[MikeeMike]

Not sure what you mean here. What i stated is fact.

Yes. Each team has a set number of challenges but In football VAR has an actual frame of video and ball trajectories are not used.This is clear cut. Video does not have a margin of error.Yes , sure ,sometimes it is a mm decision but it is what it is.

 

[Adam-Utd]

When every spectator can re-watch the situation on slow motion replays from multiple angles, there is no other way but to make the offside a factual rule about the body parts that can actually score a goal. You cannot revert back from that because then you have people complaining how a goal was allowed when it was obvious that the part of the body that scored the goal was behind the line.

I don't think anybody who watched that would say it's offside apart from the referees.

 

[arnie_ni]

Yes. Each team has a set number of challenges but In football VAR has an actual frame of video and ball trajectories are not used.This is clear cut. Video does not have a margin of error.Yes , sure ,sometimes it is a mm decision but it is what it is.

We're on to another dicussion now, but how does football not have a margin of error, especially offside and determining the frame to use, ie when the ball was passed?

Im sure in some of these mm ones, if you seen the frame before or after it could be onside.

Im actually not in favour of a "stay with the on field decision" in football but there is definitely a margin of error in football.

 

[MikeeMike]

We're on to another dicussion now, but how does football not have a margin of error, especially offside and determining the frame to use, ie when the ball was passed?

Im sure in some of these mm ones, if you seen the frame before or after it could be onside.

Im actually not in favour of a "stay with the on field decision" in football but there is definitely a margin of error in football.

Well maybe we should agree to disagree. If decision is so tight , down to the mm, it is still a mm and can be used to make the decision.

 

[georgipep]

I don't think anybody who watched that would say it's offside apart from the referees.

Maybe ask Palace fans. At the time it happened.

 

[Adam-Utd]

Maybe ask Palace fans. At the time it happened.

Let's ask them after the match now they know they've won. Bet they agree it's a stupid decision.

 

[Zlatan 7]

Jus this weekend in the premier league there was..
A ridiculous Bamford offside where there’s no way that’s 100% accurate.
The two hand ball penalty incidents that were hard as a defender to avoid.
The Fulham conceded goal that was offside.

whether it’s the rules changed to make var calls simpler or changed just because, they’re a joke and they’re clearly ruining the enjoyment of football.

it’s more like coronation street these days, all manufactured drama to supposedly create more excitement. How anyone can defend any of those decisions is beyond me

 

[georgipep]

Let's ask them after the match now they know they've won. Bet they agree it's a stupid decision.

You can't ask them after the fact. That's the whole point. When there is a lot at stake you make the decision by the book. And because there is always a lot at stake (theoretically) you always make the decision by the book.

 

[arnie_ni]

Well maybe we should agree to disagree. If decision is so tight , down to the mm, it is still a mm and can be used to make the decision.

I even said as much in my own post... "Im actually not in favour of a "stay with the on field decision"

 

[Withnail]

And thats what we are arguing. Its quite silly your sleeve should be given offside.

Hence 3 or 4 posters calling for feet only so simplify it.

And yes we know there would still be close calls using feet.

I think if they are going to persist with this line drawing stuff it definitely should be based on position of the feet. The players are in motion so if 90% of their bodies are level, it makes no sense to say someone is offside because they are leaning further forward or they're pointing.

To be honest they should probably just scrap the lines. Watch the replay and if the player is obviously off it's off and if it's too close to call then they are on. The spirit of the law isn't being served with the current system.

 

[Adam-Utd]

I think if they are going to persist with this line drawing stuff it definitely should be based on position of the feet. The players are in motion so if 90% of their bodies are level, it makes no sense to say someone is offside because they are leaning further forward or they're pointing.

To be honest they should probably just scrap the lines. Watch the replay and if the player is obviously off it's off and if it's too close to call then they are on. The spirit of the law isn't being served with the current system.

The issue with the replays is that camera angles are never dead straight so they can always give the optical illusion of being offside. Look at the Greenwood v Leipzig goal, we all thought he was off initially.

I do agree though that they arm pits and lines blurring into each other is just too stupid to make a tight call.

 

[Zlatan 7]

Why didn’t they draw a line up from the defender who was behind Bamford? He looked like he had just as much chance of playing him onside. Was it because they couldn’t get any reference points from that defender? What a mess

 

[Withnail]

The issue with the replays is that camera angles are never dead straight so they can always give the optical illusion of being offside. Look at the Greenwood v Leipzig goal, we all thought he was off initially.

I do agree though that they arm pits and lines blurring into each other is just too stupid to make a tight call.

Yeah I'd not taken that into account... Ugh.

Feet is the fairest way in that case, although we're still going to get an attackers toenail being off-side.

What constitutes a material advantage in that situation?

 

[georgipep]

Yeah I'd not taken that into account... Ugh.

Feet is the fairest way in that case, although we're still going to get an attackers toenail being off-side.

What constitutes a material advantage in that situation?

I don't think we can accept to rule it by the feet only when players score a ton of goals with their heads. I don't see any problem with the current system and as long as they frickin agree on the shirt sleeves, we can all get on with it and move to the real problems of VAR:

• Lack of consistency in similar situations
• VAR still being the subjective as one referee is looking at the replays
• VAR to be used in only a fraction of the situations
• The stupidity of 'clear and obvious error'

Offsides are fine. People moan because their teams get goals disallowed or conceded. Be onside and/or defend better.

 

[Withnail]

I don't think we can accept to rule it by the feet only when players score a ton of goals with their heads. I don't see any problem with the current system and as long as they frickin agree on the shirt sleeves, we can all get on with it and move to the real problems of VAR:

• Lack of consistency in similar situations
• VAR still being the subjective as one referee is looking at the replays
• VAR to be used in only a fraction of the situations
• The stupidity of 'clear and obvious error'

Offsides are fine. People moan because their teams get goals disallowed or conceded. Be onside and/or defend better.

The point about the feet has nothing to do with the fact that you can score a goal with your head.

If you are running alongside someone and, for example, due to the difference in running styles your head is marginally in front of them but your feet are level/behind theirs when the ball is kicked, you're not actually gaining any material advantage.

Similarly, if you are pointing and the upper part of your arm is ahead of the defender you're not gaining a material advantage.

The ball still has a fair distance to travel after it is kicked. If isn't like a first past the post photo-finish.

 

[Anustart89]

You can’t really gain an advantage by your head or your arm leaning over the line though. The offside rule was brought in to stop goal hanging, it was never meant to be dealt with in Millimetres.

bamfords goal is perfect example of this, his feet are 2 yards onside but because he’s leaning forward and his arm is stretched out he’s deemed “offside” but how on earth is he gaining any advantage from that? He didn’t. That should never be given offside and the rules need a big rework.

Just wait until someone pings a cross onto an outstretched arm for a perfectly legitimate goal. Then people will give it large about that.

I agree that Bamford shouldn’t be offside, but that’s because I think that handball should mean that you can’t play the ball with your arm (not even part of it!). I think it’s fair to judge offside by goalscoring parts of the body. The end of the sleeve is such an arbitrary measure brought in because referees couldn’t agree on what a shoulder is, which is idiotic.

 

[georgipep]

The point about the feet has nothing to do with the fact that you can score a goal with your head.

If you are running alongside someone and, for example, due to the difference in running styles your head is marginally in front of them but your feet are level/behind theirs when the ball is kicked, you're not actually gaining any material advantage.

Similarly, if you are pointing and the upper part of your arm is ahead of the defender you're not gaining a material advantage.

The ball still has a fair distance to travel after it is kicked. If isn't like a first past the post photo-finish.

I don't see how tracking feet is any better though. Not only running style but the exact moment in one's movement during running can change things drastically in terms of the offside rule, if that is to be measured. Depending on the starting position, one's foot can be further behind their knee. Should we ignore that too? I just don't see the benefit of using the feet instead of the parts of the body which are legally allowed to score a goal.

 

[sullydnl]

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Supports the complaints a lot of people have with marginal offside calls.

Though the fact that they will be introducing an entirely different gps system for offsides in coming seasons means these particular problems are short-term. We'll have to see how accurate the new system is when that comes along.

 

[Annihilate Now!]

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Supports the complaints a lot of people have with marginal offside calls.

Though the fact that they will be introducing an entirely different gps system for offsides in coming seasons means these particular problems are short-term. We'll have to see how accurate the new system is when that comes along.

I'm intrigued by this GPS technology thing... Surely it can't be that accurate? I mean are they putting chips over a whole body or something?

Interesting that the PL wanted an allowance and FIFA basically want them to treat tech as 100% accurate.

 

[arnie_ni]

Tweet

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Supports the complaints a lot of people have with marginal offside calls.

Though the fact that they will be introducing an entirely different gps system for offsides in coming seasons means these particular problems are short-term. We'll have to see how accurate the new system is when that comes along.

So basically most of us were right. There is a margin of error but the pl were forced to remove it by fifa and if they were allowed what they wanted quite a few disallowed goals eg bamford and mane would have stood?

They even go onto say its totally up to the var ref what camera angle he uses and what line he plots, going further and saying it looks like bamfords line was drawn wrong?

Seems like a complete shambles.

 

[sullydnl]

I'm intrigued by this GPS technology thing... Surely it can't be that accurate? I mean are they putting chips over a whole body or something?

Interesting that the PL wanted an allowance and FIFA basically want them to treat tech as 100% accurate.

It's a good question. It sounds like they're still weighing up bids from several different tech providers but this is what at least one of them was suggesting:

Spoiler

One of the main challenges in the development of an advanced offside technology is the accurate and automated detection of the kick-point. The technology provider informed the group about possible solutions like tracking data from sensor technology or video data from camera systems.

Furthermore, a system has to correctly identify which body part places a player onside or offside. Accuracy tests have shown that human operators tend to pick different body parts for offside lines. Strides have been made in that area as well, with the automated system presented learning to correctly model a player's skeleton. In the future, the developed algorithms of the system should be able to automatically identify which body part placed the player offside and by what distance.

https://www.fifa.com/who-we-are/new...-demonstration-of-advanced-offside-technology

Sounds fancy but I'm sure we'll hear more about the actual accuracy closer to the time.

Still, it should remove the current inconsistencies about which frame is chosen and which parts of the body lines are drawn from. Plus it will apparently be an awful lot quicker, with the VAR getting an alert for offsides in much the same way the ref currently does when the ball crosses the goal-line.

According to Johnson the plan is/was to roll it out for the 2022 world cup, so we won't be waiting too long to see.