FA to investigate Edinson Cavani | This thread is taking a break

[reelworld]

I'm not a native speaker in Spanish but was previously fluent enough to be able to work in Colombia and still retain a reasonable level now.

As I've said multiple times in this thread, I didn't love it but would never have dreamed to tell Colombians, or other South Americans, to change how they spoke. Similarly, as I've said, I wouldn't sanction Cavani either. Simple education would suffice.

But if someone tried calling me negrito in the UK, I wouldn't be particularly happy. Even if said in an endearing way by a friend.

You're not embedded to the SA culture as immensely as a native, of course it would be different. I just think that the idea that Cavani should not be able to address a fellow countryman in a way that he's comfortable is silly.
I also keep seeing that Cavani should follow what is acceptable in England since he's currently living there. If Cavani say this out loud in a café in Manchester they may have a point. But could you really defined what should be locally acceptable in a place as borderless as social media?

 

[el3mel]

I feel like this issus is getting far more than it deserves here. Didn't expect this thread to reach 26 pages to be honest.

 

[Paxi]

Which is actually the most important thing when judging these situations IMO.

I don't think the FA is going to see it that way, unfortunately.

Fa ruled back then the word 'negrito' in an of it self is not an offensive term. Suarez's behaviour on the whole was deemed racially abusive not because he called Evra negrito.

 

[iluvoursolskjær]

I understand there's no malicious intent here but addressing someone distinguishing them by their skin colour in a public space is still unacceptable, it's not difficult to grasp why people of demographics that have historically been discriminated against along those lines may be sensitive to being referred to that way.

Saying that, it's nothing more than an education thing regarding Cavani and he has rightly been pulled up on and made aware of it.

 

[MTF]

Don’t use word negrito inside UK. Simple.

Can you link me to the list of all the foreign words in all of the languages in the world that I'm not supposed to use in the UK?

 

[Schmeichel's Cartwheel]

Everything I accept is up to me, no? On the internet everyone can claim to be everything. "I'm no fan of Trump, but..." Skepticism is very necessary, particularly when people describe themselves.
Whether or not you have to care what I accept is another question.

I’m not going to take the time to explain my stance on every social issue just to prove to some random guy online that I’m on the left.

 

[cyberman]

Nobody is saying that. My point is that a word being acceptable in one country or culture does not make it so, especially when you are in another culture.




I've read the message sent. What I'm saying still stands. An Egyptian from Cairo may 'jokingly' call his Nubian Egyptian friend 'Abd'. If Salah did that, on a public profile, I would expect there to be a backlash as well, preferably with some education as to the current cultural context in which he lives, rather than a ban.

But its the same point. Its not your language, culture, nor place, to be offended for them?

 

[sammsky1]

Can you link me to the list of all the foreign words in all of the languages in the world that I'm not supposed to use in the UK?

this thread is about the word negrito so let’s stick to that.

 

[bsCallout]

Yes, when European languages have evolved within the societal context of slavery, white supremacy and embedded cultural racism, when those societies then decide to eradicate racism, their language absolutely has to also evolve or change.

The only question should be, do Spanish speaking black people find this word offensive.

Do you have any evidence that they do?

 

[antohan]

How is it for Black people in places such as Brazil? let alone places where the black presence has literally been white washed such as Uraguay and Argentina? You are ignorant to the experience so you paint it off as an European problem, it is not, it’s a world problem..

What the feck are you going on about? The natives weren't black and slaves were few and far apart as you don't need slaves to raise cattle, they were channeled to tropical regions with massive plantations so Europe could get a steady supply of sugar and chocolate.

 

[the_answer]

As a non US/English person of non-white origin I think that the N word (or blackface or the slant eye gesture or...) is deemed offensive mainly in the Anglo-American culture.

In recent times it's getting a bit much when the Anglo-American standard of political correctness is enforced upon people of other backgrounds and from other countries.
Whether it's the Bernardo Silva incident or using the term Latinx or...
I trying to explain this, because I feel that many latin posters dont understand the fuss (for cavani or b silva) while the English posters seem to see it more as an offense.

Coming back to Cavani, he used a spanish word which literally means black in a non-offensive manner. It would be a very bad sign if he got banned. Because there would be no boundary on PC Culture anymore. What if Heung Min Son appears on korean tv where he wears blackface? Ban? If ozil uses a word sounding like the n word to describe black people in turkish because it's the normal word to use in turkish? Ban?

 

[Schmeichel's Cartwheel]

Don’t use word negrito inside UK. Simple.

What other words am I not allowed to use?

I like to understand my censorship in advance. Thanks

 

[Zlatan 7]

[

It is translated as Cheers Black. If any other footballer posted those words they would be banned simple as that.

We know he is probably not racist and this was not intended as a racial slur but that does not matter.

There is no point going on and on about native tongues and translations. The rules are clear.

He will get banned and we will have to accept it

 

[reelworld]

Don’t use word negrito inside UK. Simple.

he didn't.
He use it in social media. Unless of course you think the internet is equal to UK. Which would be ridiculous

 

[SuperiorXI]

this thread is about the word negrito so let’s stick to that.

No, we need something to hand out to all the foreigners that come over to avoid this situation, if it really is an issue?

 

[drunkmonkmeth]

Its stupid to be offended by a word because it sounds like another word but has a different meaning? By this logic spanish people cannot even say black in their language because black in spanish is negro.

 

[africanspur]

You're not embedded to the SA culture as immensely as a native, of course it would be different. I just think that the idea that Cavani should not be able to address a fellow countryman in a way that he's comfortable is silly.
I also keep seeing that Cavani should follow what is acceptable in England since he's currently living there. If Cavani say this out loud in a café in Manchester they may have a point. But could you really defined what should be locally acceptable in a place as borderless as social media?

So you have to be a native speaker to discuss any societal issue? Not sure that works, especially as we've had a couple of people on here essentially try to whitewash racism on the continent by pretending it has nothing to do with Europe, when American history is (sadly) inextricably linked to European history.

If he'd sent it in a DM only, sure. As far as I'm aware, that's not the case.

 

[Buffalo Bills]

I feel like this issus is getting far more than it deserves here. Didn't expect this thread to reach 26 pages to be honest.

Yip.....you'd think someone had been murdered

 

[Paxi]

20 years ago I was in Brazil working on nailing a big fat contract. My Portuguese was rudimentary, I pretty much spoke Spanish and added a lot of ção and inho here and there.

When it was finally wrapped up we arranged to go have dinner that night. One of the (quite stunning) ladies offered me a lift back to the hotel and in front of fifteen people I looked at her straight in the eye as I said "Thank you love, but could we briefly stop at the shopping centre so I can buy the proper condom that this celebration deserves"

Spoiler

Camisa = shirt
Camisinha = condom

FML, watching their faces I reiterated the point that the occasion deserved a proper condom to celebrate with them all. Took me about five minutes to work it out and turn into a red beam.

 

[MTF]

I understand there's no malicious intent here but addressing someone distinguishing them by their skin colour in a public space is still unacceptable, it's not difficult to grasp why people of demographics that have historically been discriminated against along those lines may be sensitive to being referred to that way.

Saying that, it's nothing more than an education thing regarding Cavani.

We don't know the skin color of the person Cavani was replying to. But I'll said what myself and others from South America have said in this thread earlier but seems to be ignored: the terms 'negro' and 'negrito' are used affectionately between white people talking to other white people in Uruguay and Argentina. So it is not necessarily even a reference to skin color at all.

 

[L1nk]

I understand there's no malicious intent here but addressing someone distinguishing them by their skin colour in a public space is still unacceptable, it's not difficult to grasp why people of demographics that have historically been discriminated against along those lines may be sensitive to being referred to that way.

Saying that, it's nothing more than an education thing regarding Cavani and he has rightly been pulled up on and made aware of it.

Wasn't the person he was addressing white?

 

[Ludens the Red]

Have they changed the rules since the Suarez vs Evra case to completely remove context?

Yuh, minimum three game bans now. So yeah Cavani will get a three game ban, a warning and some education. Which is correct.

 

[Martial'sEmergingSmile]

The whole situation is like some absurdist comedy.

I've lived in four different countries. Age 6-10 I spent with my family in Brazil, where these type of nicknames are an important part of everyday speech. I am extremely dark skinned black, born in Ethiopia - yet the nickname I always got was Gordito because I was a chubby little kid. The people I most remember getting the Negrito nickname were light-skinned people with dark hair.

Anglo countries have become obsessed with searching for offence, even if it means actively ignoring all context and intent. It genuinely baffles me to see people comparing this situation to Suarez-Evra, like there's no difference in using the word Negro multiple times in an argument with a stranger, while pinching his skin and allegedly saying 'I don't speak to blacks' - compared to a man publically (ie clearly with good intent) using a nickname while thanking a friend for his congratulations.

The ironic thing is, despite the absolutely endless - often damaging imo - hyperfocus on identity and 'tolerance' in Anglo countries, the second that a situation happens where a person's actions actually have to be judged in light of their own cultural background, everybody instead just pretends that context doesn't exist, that their own narrow cultural frame of reference overrules all others and that erasure of South American culture and language is not just fine, but encouraged.

Demanding things like a 'reeducation' is just so creepy, and ironically reinforcing of some sort of perceived Anglo superiority.

 

[africanspur]

But its the same point. Its not your language, culture, nor place, to be offended for them?

Considering I've spent a reasonable portion of my life in both general regions and been called both terms, I think I'm allowed to have a personal opinion on it. I don't know who them is in this instance and, as I keep on saying, I have no intention of changing the Spanish language or South American culture as a whole (and don't think anybody is suggesting that either).

 

[90 + 5min]

Whilst I do not agree with his view, I don't think past transgressions come into who can have a view on something now, especially if they have been moved on from and corrected.

I don't mind if people have opinion. But coming from a somebody that have past, like he has, makes me always think that they should concentrate on their own life and problems before commenting others.

 

[saivet]

I suspect this term ‘negreto’ originated as a subliminal form of white supremacy, to ensure ‘others’ would always be identified as different, and that could subsequently be abused through discrimination. Else what is the point?

I think this is probably the case. I'm certainly aware of colourism in Spanish speaking Caribbean countries where the use of terms like Negrito are common. It's probably not used as an offensive term but I'm pretty certain it does stem from some form of colourist views that it's better to be lighter skinned rather than darker skinned.

Just because a term isn't considered to be offensive in one culture doesn't automatically make it fine. There are a lot of terms and sayings that were once deemed acceptable in English that aren't now.

I can't remember the exact term, but one of my friends who lived in China was called something similar to Negrito, and while it was not considered an offensive term there, it came from a place of ignorance that offended her.

 

[Dante]

Out of interest, what do you think about the word 'Abd' or 'Slave' being used in Arabic to describe black people? And most particularly, if they used that word, or a transliteration of that word, whilst working in the UK for a major company based there?

Would you ban the name Abdul from being used in the UK?

 

[UncleBob]

Yuh, minimum three game bans now. So yeah Cavani will get a three game ban, a warning and some education. Which is correct.

That's not what i asked for. I asked if they have changed the rules so that context no longer applies.

 

[Cassidy]

Can you link me to the list of all the foreign words in all of the languages in the world that I'm not supposed to use in the UK?

Just don't refer to someone by their race. Its not a foreign word issue, its a cultural issue around how people are referred to

 

[Inigo Montoya]

Yes I believe around the time of Bernado Silva incident

He’s fecked then
3 games

 

[sammsky1]

The Swaztika Is sign from ancient Hindu and Buddhist culture and connotes divinity or deep spiritualism inside India or Thailand.

But Nazi Germans culturally appropriated a version of this sign to represent them and it remains hugely offensive inside countries like U.K. today.

despite Hinduism owning this sign centuries before British people became aware of it, British Hindu’s are extremely careful how it is used inside U.K. and would never ever display in a public context, despite it meaning something very positive for them.

 

[Tom Cato]

Is it though? Or is it generally quite easy to be polite and mindful of others and, perhaps most importantly, if you do cause inadvertent offence, to take on board how and why and try to avoid it in the future if possible?

Well. Case in point, a person uses a language he's used all his life adressing a person with his local language.

It's evident Cavani isn't trying to be racist, insensitive or otherwise be harmful. He deleted the post immediately when he was notified and that was that.

The FA are opening an investigation that could actually punish him, on record, for being a racist.

This isn't a problem for ME personally because my langauge doesn't have any interpretations that can be misunderstood internationally. I completely get that it's not the same for everyone.

The FA should warn Cavani that this isnt ok here, and that should be the end of it.

Anything more is asking to punish for the sake of punishing, it wont acomplish anything meaningful. Context is everything, always.

 

[SuperiorXI]

The whole situation is like some absurdist comedy.

I've lived in four different countries. Age 6-10 I spent with my family in Brazil, where these type of nicknames are an important part of everyday speech. I am extremely dark skinned black, born in Ethiopia - yet the nickname I always got was Gordito because I was a chubby little kid. The people I most remember getting the Negrito nickname were light-skinned people with dark hair.

Anglo countries have become obsessed with actively looking for offence, even if it means actively ignoring all context and intent. It genuinely baffles me to see people comparing this situation to Suarez-Evra, like there's no difference in using the word Negro multiple times in an argument with a stranger, while pinching his skin and allegedly saying 'I don't speak to blacks' - compared to a man publically (ie clearly with good intent) using a nickname while thanking a friend for his congratulations.

The ironic thing is, despite the absolutely endless - often damaging imo - hyperfocus on identity and tolerance in Anglo countries, the second that a situation happens where a person's actions actually have to be judged in light of their own cultural background, everybody instead just pretends that context doesn't exist, that their own narrow cultural frame of reference overrules all others and that erasure of South American culture and language is not just fine, but encouraged.

Demanding things like a 'reeducation' is just so creepy, and ironically reinforcing of some sort of perceived Anglo superiority.

Spot on mate, highlights why punishing Cavani would be so dangerous. It's complete ignorance of a wider world with differing cultures and a complete 180 of diversity and inclusivity.

 

[Camilo]

The only thing that matter here is that intent is absolutely ignored. Mistakes from justifiable ignorance of another country must be punished, much like daft British tourists in Saudi lands.

 

[Gaussian]

I can link you the whole doc: https://www.thefa.com/-/media/cfa/h...ardised-rules-for-steps-1-to-6-2019-2020.ashx

The relevant portion was posted sometime yesterday but to paraphrase you cannot refer to race, ethnicity, or sexuality

The Competition and each Club does not and must not [by itsrules or regulations or] in any manner whatsoever unlawfully discriminate against any person within the meaning and
scope of the Equality Act 2010 or any law, enactment, order or regulation relating to
discrimination (whether by way of age, gender, gender reassignment,sexual orientation, marital
status, race, nationality, ethnic origin, colour, religion or belief, ability or disability, or otherwise).
2.23 The Competition and each Club shall make every effort to promote equality by treating
people fairly and with respect, by recognising that inequalities may exist, by taking stepsto
addressthem and by providing access and opportunitiesfor all members of the community,
irrespective of age, gender, gender reassignment,sexual orientation, maritalstatus, race,
nationality, ethnic origin, colour, religion or belief, ability or disability, or otherwise.
2.24 Any alleged breach of the Equality Act 2010 legislation must be referred to the
appropriate sanctioning Association for investigation.

Here is the only part of the document that refers to race. Both sections refer specifically to discrimination. I'm not sure this means what you said it means.

 

[sammsky1]

No, we need something to hand out to all the foreigners that come over to avoid this situation, if it really is an issue?

So get onto Boris ASAP then

 

[UncleBob]

Posted above somewhere

Can you quote the actual rule that you are referring to..

 

[reelworld]

So you have to be a native speaker to discuss any societal issue? Not sure that works, especially as we've had a couple of people on here essentially try to whitewash racism on the continent by pretending it has nothing to do with Europe, when American history is (sadly) inextricably linked to European history.

If he'd sent it in a DM only, sure. As far as I'm aware, that's not the case.

No, I think you have to be native speaker and embedded to the culture to call each other with that word.
For your last point, it's his social media. If other people can't accept the languages he use on it, they can simply unfollow him

 

[UnrelatedPsuedo]

It's not a big deal. Social Media and forums are even worse than tabloids.

Cavani basically said something that's fine in his country but not fine in the UK (where he works as a public figure). That's it, nothing more.

Don't get upset.

No. What he said is fine here too. There is no problem.

 

[sammsky1]

Yuh, minimum three game bans now. So yeah Cavani will get a three game ban, a warning and some education. Which is correct.

If that’s already defined, and presumably Cavani agreed to these regulations in his contract by agreeing to abide by FA regulations, then I also agree it’s correct.