Attitude or preparation?

Adam-Utd

Part of first caf team to complete Destiny raid
Joined
Sep 10, 2010
Messages
39,954
Why is it that we cannot start playing football until the 30th minute?

every single time we go 1-0 down. We start matches like we’ve just woken up and can’t be bothered. This cannot continue, we can’t keep getting out of going 1 or 2 goals down before we wake up.

what is going so badly wrong?!
 

Falcow

New Member
Joined
Mar 20, 2019
Messages
1,338
Location
Dublin
Bit of both I'd say. Casual attitude really really pisses me off
 

Web of Bissaka

Full Member
Joined
Feb 20, 2017
Messages
8,553
Location
Losing to Comeback Winning!
Both of those affected each other.

Attitude <--> Preparation.

Squad with good attitude will naturally always prepare themselves.
Squad with good preparations will encourage good attitude among the players.

How?
1. Get players who are a natural with ready-made good attitude. (automatic/passive)
2. Get skilled manager and coaches who foster good preparations and therefore foster good attitude among the players. (manual/active)
 

UmbroDays

Full Member
Joined
Aug 12, 2019
Messages
738
Coaching is the ultimate end

No positivity, then coach it into them. He needs to be out on the side of the pitch and reaffirming his tactics. We see it with damn near every successful manager, get on the sideline and get your troops moving.

But before that, the tactics in training, the team choices, etc NEED to be better. There is no one on our coaching staff that belongs at the biggest British club and one of the biggest in Europe. None of them have won anything as coaches nor even been in a coaching team who have won something (of worth)
 

Carl

has permanently erect nipples
Joined
Mar 6, 2008
Messages
45,376
Why is it that we cannot start playing football until the 30th minute?

every single time we go 1-0 down. We start matches like we’ve just woken up and can’t be bothered. This cannot continue, we can’t keep getting out of going 1 or 2 goals down before we wake up.

what is going so badly wrong?!
100% on Ole. If he can take all the credit for our comebacks, he can take the shit for how dreadfully we start games. Clear and obvious lack of preparation.
 

Sanchez7

Full Member
Joined
Mar 23, 2011
Messages
1,769
Location
London
Attitude/Prep/Coaching - The crime was losing in Istanbul and the way we conceded the first goal. Made a retired Demba Ba look like Ronaldo.
 

Schmeichel's Cartwheel

Correctly predicted Italy to win Euro 2020
Joined
Dec 21, 2014
Messages
11,420
Location
Manchester
We’ve got a truly terrible manager. Our manager will never ever ever get another PL job. Championship clubs would turn him down. Absolutely clueless to the point of parody.
 

Eddy_JukeZ

Full Member
Joined
Aug 21, 2012
Messages
17,130
Preparation stemming from the manager + coaching staff

We show good attitude when we're losing most of the time. I'll credit Ole for that as well to be fair.

But awful starts have been a constant this season.
 

pratyush_utd

Can't tell DeGea and Onana apart.
Joined
Aug 30, 2017
Messages
8,431
Both. 2nd half we were okay so preparation has to be questioned.
 

Chipper

Adulterer.
Joined
Oct 25, 2017
Messages
5,696
I don't even need to focus on the timing of the goals we concede to get mad.

We've conceded 17 in 10 in the PL, 10 in 6 in the CL. That's just too many anyway you want to look at it. 3 clean sheets (I think) in those 16.

If you're that leaky when you're supposed to have aspirations at the right end of the table it's bad coaching, prep and lack of organisation.
 

Andycoleno9

matchday malcontent
Joined
Mar 4, 2017
Messages
29,017
Location
Croatia
With threads like this getting creating a lot, i am seriously starting to doubt do fans know what managers actually do (except picking 11 players for game)
 

Adam-Utd

Part of first caf team to complete Destiny raid
Joined
Sep 10, 2010
Messages
39,954
With threads like this getting creating a lot, i am seriously starting to doubt do fans know what managers actually do (except picking 11 players for game)
So elaborate a bit, give us an answer instead of riddles.
 

arnie_ni

Full Member
Joined
Apr 27, 2014
Messages
15,216
Has to be preparation, if it was attitude you'd be dropping those that aren't getting their act to together and replacing them with someone that's going to deliver your game plan and put your preparation into action.

So even if it is attitude it comes full circle back to ole for not doing anything about it.
 

FrankDrebin

Don't call me Shirley
Joined
Aug 25, 2019
Messages
20,520
Location
Police Squad
Supports
USA Manchester Red Socks
We start every game nowadays flat footed and today was another perfect example. We knew they would come out of the blocks and play at a high tempo yet what did we do ? Just stood there like bloody daydreamers. Arghh.
 

always_hoping

Full Member
Joined
Jun 7, 2013
Messages
7,810
Attitude a big part of it. I don't think a lot of those players realised the task they were faced with tonight before it was too late. RB leipzig are the only team in Europes top leagues that has won every one of their league and CL home matches this season and after reaching the CL semi finals last year it was clearly a very difficult assignment for United.

In the end RB will likely be surprised also by Uniteds attitude as they didn't make themselves hard to beat or score against.
 

croadyman

Full Member
Joined
Mar 9, 2018
Messages
34,832
Glad to hear that most people think it's attitude and poor preparation rather than my mate who is making excuses like things will look better when we aren't playing twice a week which personally I found hilarious
 

Blackwidow

Full Member
Joined
Oct 8, 2011
Messages
7,760
The match on Saturday and various analyzings on German Sky this week hinted exactly the way Nagelsmann would let Leipzig play...

Especially Erik Meijer who does the CL analyzes showed several vids how players hurt your left flank together with scenes of Angelino and others. Even if Solskjaer though they would play with a real striker like Poulsen or Sorloth - there was a big possibility they do not and there was no plan B for that!
 

kouroux

45k posts to finally achieve this tagline
Joined
Apr 25, 2007
Messages
96,174
Location
Djibouti (La terre des braves)
100% on Ole. If he can take all the credit for our comebacks, he can take the shit for how dreadfully we start games. Clear and obvious lack of preparation.
I would agree with this. It keeps happening so often too, his message isn't getting through to the players.
 

croadyman

Full Member
Joined
Mar 9, 2018
Messages
34,832
I would agree with this. It keeps happening so often too, his message isn't getting through to the players.
Yeah very true but expect another vote of confidence from the usual Utd journos which is depressing
 

smi11ie

Not a philogynist
Newbie
Joined
May 4, 2017
Messages
885
Location
Buri Ram
Supports
Rangers
The players only focus and have intent after they concede. This is Ole's responsibility and I think it is down to his aimless/rambling style of talking. He does this alot. I like Ole and I hope he keeps his job and gets a chance to improve but, he needs to be more clear and direct and express himself with confidence and passion. It is his main weakness for me in addition to sitting down too much. He is just not naturally a confident mouthy leader and he needs to be. Hope he can do it but I fear he just isn't good enough in this area.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Sultan

croadyman

Full Member
Joined
Mar 9, 2018
Messages
34,832
The players only focus and have intent after they concede. This is Ole's responsibility and I think it is down to his aimless/rambling style of talking. He does this alot. I like Ole and I hope he keeps his job and gets a chance to improve but, he needs to be more clear and direct and express himself with confidence and passion. It is his main weakness for me in addition to sitting down too much. He is just not naturally a confident mouthy leader and he needs to be. Hope he can do it but I fear he just isn't good enough in this area.
Wow and there was me thinking only the romantics in our fanbase and rival fans wanted him to keep his job
 

RedDevil@84

Full Member
Joined
Jun 5, 2014
Messages
21,742
Location
USA
You can only blame the attitude only so many times. After a point it is obvious that the preparation is not enough or does not translate into performances. Which means the coaching team is not doing a good job. And the buck stops with Ole, unfortunately
 

smi11ie

Not a philogynist
Newbie
Joined
May 4, 2017
Messages
885
Location
Buri Ram
Supports
Rangers
Wow and there was me thinking only the romantics in our fanbase and rival fans wanted him to keep his job
Utd are my second team, 20 years now, initially due to the SAF connection.
 
Last edited:

Matriac

Full Member
Joined
Jan 23, 2020
Messages
1,502
The players only focus and have intent after they concede. This is Ole's responsibility and I think it is down to his aimless/rambling style of talking. He does this alot. I like Ole and I hope he keeps his job and gets a chance to improve but, he needs to be more clear and direct and express himself with confidence and passion. It is his main weakness for me in addition to sitting down too much. He is just not naturally a confident mouthy leader and he needs to be. Hope he can do it but I fear he just isn't good enough in this area.
We have no idea how he is when he talks to the playera and can be more free.
He's always restrained in the media. I think his "rambling" there is down to looking for the most positive and politically correct way to answer questions.

We've seen several reports from current players and ex-team mates of his that he's a very different person off camera, and especially in the dressing room.
 

kundalini

Full Member
Joined
Aug 26, 2004
Messages
5,756
Why is it that we cannot start playing football until the 30th minute?

every single time we go 1-0 down. We start matches like we’ve just woken up and can’t be bothered. This cannot continue, we can’t keep getting out of going 1 or 2 goals down before we wake up.

what is going so badly wrong?!
Teams have a limited amount of energy. This is especially true when playing twice a week, with only minimal rotation.

They adopt different approaches as to when to use their energy.

Some teams start fast, press like crazy, then retreat and try to hold on when they are exhausted.

United seem to run less during the early stages, hoping to exploit the spaces once the opposition no longer have the energy to press.

What we have struggled to do, is to prevent the opposition from creating good chances to score during our cautious phase.

In this particular match, Wan-Bissaka's inability to shut down Angelino hurt us in the first 30 mins.
 

Champ

Refuses to acknowledge existence of Ukraine
Joined
Jun 17, 2017
Messages
9,888
The players only focus and have intent after they concede. This is Ole's responsibility and I think it is down to his aimless/rambling style of talking. He does this alot. I like Ole and I hope he keeps his job and gets a chance to improve but, he needs to be more clear and direct and express himself with confidence and passion. It is his main weakness for me in addition to sitting down too much. He is just not naturally a confident mouthy leader and he needs to be. Hope he can do it but I fear he just isn't good enough in this area.
Ole is a fantastic speaker, he constantly uses language to great effect in the media.
Nearly every word he says has a positive connotation which suggests this is something he has worked on throughout his career.
We have no idea what he sounds like in the dressing room, however hearing him on the training ground he sounds alot more vocal than when he is on the side of the pitch.
As a former player, I'd imagine Ole is aware of how much notice a player takes of the manager on the touchline during a game. Loads of players have suggested that they don't even listen to the managers shouts as usually with a crowd you can't hear them!!
 

jamesjimmybyrondean

Full Member
Joined
Feb 26, 2019
Messages
7,093
It's the idea that we think we are prepared when we don't know what is coming. This may sound silly but I thought we would lose the game the moment we walked out to the pitch. Why? The body language. I saw all our players jogging and doing alot of body movements when walking through the dugout. Like they were warming up while the Leipzig players just walked and lined up to the champions league anthem with their chest high in full focus.
 

Volumiza

The alright "V", B-Boy cypher cat
Joined
Jul 13, 2018
Messages
13,563
Location
Somewhere in the middle
Ole is a fantastic speaker, he constantly uses language to great effect in the media.
I completely disagree. Yes he uses positivity and is obviously a nice guy but can you imagine him giving motivational speeches? Can you imagine his players being scared of him or really feeling his authority? I can’t.

I’ve sat in enough meetings with enough different types of people and I see in Ole someone that could easily be beaten in a serious and confrontational situation. Now I may be wrong of course but that is what I see and have always seen with Ole.
 

oz insomniac

Full Member
Joined
Mar 12, 2016
Messages
416
Tactics what tactics.
Playing a high pressing, quick passing team that needed a win, Ole picks an ageing , slow Matic coupled with another midfielder in McTo inlay , who is not constructive in a match where a result was needed.
Rashford , as is Martial is not a true 9 and with no attacking midfielder apart from the lone Bruno it’s a recipe for defeat.
DDG hasn’t successfully defended inside the 6 yard box for a long time and seems content with trying to cover with his feet in most circumstances, and it’s starting to impact the defence in a big way.
Who are the best centre defensive pairing, surely that should be apparent by now.
How he left Donny and Pogba on the bench in a game like this is mystifying and then after the game to say it was the Turkey awa6 game that cost.
what does it say for his preparation agais t PSG at home and RBL away, just not good enough and although a legend , he’s out of his depth not only in big games, but against teams that play a defensive wall such as The bottom half of the EPL.
Expext the normal support from Woodward and the Glazers, they still get their bonuses and dividends and won’t want to pay out a contract early, it’s all too similar under their ownership , prepare to be disappointed.
 

Matriac

Full Member
Joined
Jan 23, 2020
Messages
1,502
I completely disagree. Yes he uses positivity and is obviously a nice guy but can you imagine him giving motivational speeches? Can you imagine his players being scared of him or really feeling his authority? I can’t.

I’ve sat in enough meetings with enough different types of people and I see in Ole someone that could easily be beaten in a serious and confrontational situation. Now I may be wrong of course but that is what I see and have always seen with Ole.
There is loads of evidence like this article out there that he is a completely different person in the dressing room.

https://metro.co.uk/2019/02/16/manc...aer-nasty-side-claims-chris-smalling-8645588/

I sometimes talk to press for my work, and I change my personality to a much more positive one when I do.
 

Volumiza

The alright "V", B-Boy cypher cat
Joined
Jul 13, 2018
Messages
13,563
Location
Somewhere in the middle
There is loads of evidence like this article out there that he is a completely different person in the dressing room.

https://metro.co.uk/2019/02/16/manc...aer-nasty-side-claims-chris-smalling-8645588/

I sometimes talk to press for my work, and I change my personality to a much more positive one when I do.
I remember reading that at the time and not being convinced. Like I said, I may be wrong, but that’s how he comes accross to me.

In relation to this thread my view is we seem to be badly prepared for a heck of a lot of games. Ok, some games we seem to have it right but good performances should not be this sporadic. That is on Ole.
 

r3idy

Correctly predicted France to win World Cup 2018
Joined
Jul 7, 2012
Messages
1,317
Location
Near Old Trafford
Preparation will lead to a better attitude. When the Skipper comes out and says if its a 3 a 5 or 4 at the back then we would have conceded (or words to that effect) then you have to put that down to p1ss poor preparation.

The panel was absolutely spot on last night when they said Ole is trying to get a system to fit the players rather than imposing a system on the club. Is Klopp's they typical Liverpool way ? Is Jose or Moyes playing the typical Spurs or West Ham way (Whatever the feck that is) but the players and the system are working together.

Where I do have a little sympathy for Ole is the longer end to the season and less of a pre-season for us is definitely having an impact on the shape and tactics. Last season when we play well, and we get results against the top teams, it was no fluke, it was good matches, well deserved victories in most cases with a plan to contain and then counter at pace. That's preparation and good management. I dont buy into the Ole out brigade it's just luck. This season it looks like we have regressed.
 

Sky1981

Fending off the urge
Joined
Apr 12, 2006
Messages
30,084
Location
Under the bright neon lights of sincity
In order for 11 men to be effective on the football field of the highest level against a good tactical manager you too will need delicate and meticulous instruction.

For example:

Where you should run during counter attack, where you should run during out of possession
Who do I press? How far should I press? At what point should I press?
Which player you need to track
Which player covers tracking player
Which players stays back during attack
How do your opponent plays, what's their weak spot
If Striker moves in, how should the winger assist
Who's guarding near post far post
Which player tracks deep runner

And that's only half of the problem, when playing against human manager they can change approach, changing instruction, for example

Let "X" have the ball, mark "Y" instead
When "X" have the ball, drop deep, mark runners
During corner, harass "X" as a feint, while "Y" runs from deep

If you don't work as a unit, you'll bound to be exposed by better team, when your team press without clear instruction you'll have people suddenly becomes unmarked and players playing out of position. When a professional players seems to be losing his man it could be down to misguided instruction. What seems to be stupidity from one player could be a tactical flaw.

This is where manager plays part, preparation, adaptation, and reaction. Many smaller teams doesn't have the individual luxury to turn the game, they often rely on discipline and tactical unity. Teams that defends deep for instance, they would have more often than not several player man marking certain player in tandems. Players like Messi / Ronaldo aren't seldom marked by 1 person, if the marker fail they'll have another ready to cover.

On top of that, you need players to actually follow the instruction, if your instruction is sound and you blunder a shot that still counts as collective failure.

So I'd say we're tactically very weak, we can't even shut down and defend as a unit, let alone attacking as one. Our goals relies alot on individual brilliance instead of a well drilled routine. Teams like City has a few tricks up their sleeve to open up a tight defence, we have none other than the obvious of "give it to X and hope something happens"

The only time we're doing well is during a counter, because it's easier to run into empty spaces with X and you don't need alot of instruction execute.

For me the best indication where a team does well tactically is how good they keep possession and how good they attack, if we start seeing off the ball movement, feints, and wingers actually stretching the defense then I'd say we're sound tactically.
 

UmbroDays

Full Member
Joined
Aug 12, 2019
Messages
738
Can anyone find/work out a stat that will make me be 100% sure that we are a lucky team.

The stat is: average pass per goal. I have not seen this calculated anywhere

I will bet that we're quite low in the ranking, and will show that we rely on an igneous pass from Bruno or a winding run from Rashford.

I don't think our midfield is creative outside of Bruno, I don't think we pass with the intention of progressing the ball, rather we pass the ball just to get rid of it. I don't see progressive play from our backline, or when Ole plays a double pivot. We don't seem to have good build up play
 

Adisa

likes to take afvanadva wothowi doubt
Joined
Nov 28, 2014
Messages
50,405
Location
Birmingham
Attitude is part of preparation.
If a team simply cannot start games well, it is all about preparation and the buck stops with the manager.