Football fans and their "understanding" of tactics

OleBoiii

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The most annoying part about being a football fan is having to listen to other football fans constantly blame managers for their tactics. It doesn't matter which team you support. It happens with every team, on every professional level. Am I really gonna listen to Armchair Bob, fueled by Stella and the power of hindsight, and value his opinion over a professional manager with years of experience, hours of research delivered to him/her by professionals before each game and exclusive "behind the scenes" knowledge?

The Dunning-Kruger effect is evident. You might protest and claim that you have watched football all your life and therefore don't fall into the "no experience" category, but you're wrong. You haven't managed a professional football team and you never will.

The worst culprit is the power of hindsight. Unless the team you support dominated the game by every reasonable metric, you can quite literally blame any loss or draw on poor tactics. You disagree with the selection of a player? Well, the player that wasn't selected would have made all the difference! You disagree with the formation? Ditto. Individual errors cost you the game? Well, the coach should have spent more time on X, Y and Z in practice! A more attacking setup than usual? Naivety! More defensive setup? Cowardice! The usual setup? Lack of creativity!

Ultimately it all falls back on one thing: the result. If the manager wins, then he/she got it right. In some cases people will claim that the win was lucky, though. It largely depends on the popularity of the manager and past results(I'm beginning to see a pattern).

The elephant in the room remains the same: you don't know shit. You don't know what the research behind the scenes have picked up. You don't know the thought processes and how the managers try to predict and counter each other. You don't know what is according to the plan or not. You don't know which players have performed in training or look especially motivated. You don't know which players are most suited to deal with the manager's tactics for a particular game. The only thing you do know is the end result. But you don't know how much of the loss/draw came down to failure in tactics or in-game adjustments. If tactics and in-game adjustments are responsible for 20% of the outcome(which I think is a very generous number), then the majority of losses and draws aren't primarily gonna be because of this. And it's not like tactics are binary either. There are many grey areas and you can get some things wrong and some things right.

"So we can't discuss tactics and in-game adjustments then?". Of course you can! This is a forum after all. But have at least an ounce of humility and don't talk as if you definitely have the answers, because you don't.
 

OleBoiii

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Another pro Ole thread, just feck up.
This was true for Moyes, Van Gaal, Mourinho and now Ole. It was annoying then, and it's annoying now. Even Fergie, for feck's sake, was criticized in the same manner every time his team lost or played a draw. The greatest manager in history wasn't safe. It's ridiculous.
 

12OunceEpilogue

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Which posts from yesterday are you referring to? Name and shame, and I'll go get popcorn.
 

Zlatan 7

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Bit long so I started skim reading but think I agree with the overall point that internet forum posters genuinely think they know more than solsjkaer when it comes to setting the team up and tactics and I find that hysterical
 

OleBoiii

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Yawn.... you on the other hand used the same coach knowledge to up ole.

Pot calling kettle black
Wrong. I'm primarily result and entertainment oriented, as those are the few things I know. Results are pretty black and white, and I know whether or not I feel entertained.

I will defend the manager if a loss came down to one or two individual errors, because I have a hard time seeing how the manager should have prevented that.
 

12OunceEpilogue

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I wish I could be arsed to do that because I came across loads that made me smile
Possibly mine to be fair, I absolutely popped a tit moaning about our defensive shape and our lack of movement :lol:. The latter I judged on the players holding onto the ball gesticulating and shrugging. I don't see that kind of reaction from well-oiled machines like Pep's best teams and the current Scousers so reasoned it's indicative of something going wrong in our play.
 
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Deery

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I called the game exactly how it would go yesterday, wasn’t hard to work out we’d set up defensively and concede then concede trying for a goal going by our last few games. I think you give Ole to much credit football isn’t that hard..
 

Sky1981

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Wrong. I'm primarily result and entertainment oriented, as those are the few things I know. Results are pretty black and white, and I know whether or not I feel entertained.

I will defend the manager if a loss came down to one or two individual errors, because I have a hard time seeing how the manager should have prevented that.
You're one of the fiercest ole supporters even when we got outplayed by west bromich albion and when we're 10th on the table weren't you?

Look it's ok to defend ole. We all pick our hills. Just dont come here preaching about being hollier than thou and how enlighten you are because you think you see something we dont see
 

OleBoiii

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To those claiming that this is an Ole-thread because of my username and timing:

1. Is the topic not relevant for every coach of every professional team?
2. Which parts of the topic do you disagree with?
3. Do you think the tactical opinion of a fan should hold as much value as the tactical opinion of a manager?
 

Mourinhonista

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I wasn't around in the 90s but Ferguson's record in Europe wasn't too great, was it? Leipzig are no slouch despite the first game. They exploited a weakness and went quickly 2:0 ahead. Things happen, fine margins if Bruno's freekick went in but it just wasn't meant to be.
 

11101

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This was true for Moyes, Van Gaal, Mourinho and now Ole. It was annoying then, and it's annoying now.
And look how successful they all were and how they are all still our manager. Maybe some of the fans had at point.
 

KirkDuyt

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I'm of the opposite conviction really. Football isnt nearly as complicated as we think and seeing as John Heitinga passed the exam for pro football trainer the minimum requirement to become one is having a barely 2 digid IQ.

It's about managing bratty millionaires more than some sort of higher understanding of the best way to kick a ball in the goal.
 

Morpheus 7

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This pro Ole thread sounds like that tit Stephen Howson. Quoting Soccernomics and thinking he's a top coach. Top red thread, pure fecking delusional.
 

OleBoiii

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Look it's ok to defend ole. We all pick our hills. Just dont come here preaching about being hollier than thou and how enlighten you are because you think you see something we dont see
This isn't an Ole thread. I've been annoyed by the same things for at least 15 years. I just got impatient enough to make a thread about it now.

Ole deserves neither more nor less than previous United managers. He should be sacked if we fail to get CL football or if we collapse completely(like Mourinho did in his 3rd year). Right now we even have a chance to make a title challenge, so I don't want him sacked. It's really that simple.
 

Web of Bissaka

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Agree. OP also don't know shit. All of us don't know shit.

Only the professionals know shit. And we see the shit results and shit football on the pitch derived from them knowing shit. Shit footballs.
 

OleBoiii

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And look how successful they all were and how they are all still our manager. Maybe some of the fans had at point.
It was also true for Fergie after poor games. Did the posters also have a point then? Maybe we should stop hiring managers and use internet polls to decide tactics and formations from now.
 

GlasgowCeltic

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What’s more surprising is how little footballers and pundits seem to understand football
 

SuperiorXI

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It irks me when you have fans (on the likes of Youtube etc) shit on the management and go on about the tactics like it's some basic thing. This is elite-level football, the highest level in the world. What looks simple to implement and execute is actually far from that...

Just ask people who have played football, the jump from amateur - semi-pro - pro is absolutely gargantuan.
 

hubbuh

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To those claiming that this is an Ole-thread because of my username and timing:

1. Is the topic not relevant for every coach of every professional team?
2. Which parts of the topic do you disagree with?
3. Do you think the tactical opinion of a fan should hold as much value as the tactical opinion of a manager?
Fans are obsessive about their teams. It isn't just a thing you watch for 90 minutes and then disassociate from. Of course people are going to pour over every little detail, it's a big part of the fun of the game for a lot of people. People shouldn't feel guilty for that.

Your point about the result is all that matters is bullshit. Everybody knows we're only 2 points off the top of the table, and everybody knows we only needed one goal last night to progress. It's extremely fine margins but that is the difference between winning and losing and that is the point of competitive sport (that, and being entertained). Most people know that regardless of that, all the signs suggest we aren't good enough.
 

Sky1981

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It irks me when you have fans (on the likes of Youtube etc) shit on the management and go on about the tactics like it's some basic thing. This is elite-level football, the highest level in the world. What looks simple to implement and execute is actually far from that...

Just ask people who have played football, the jump from amateur - semi-pro - pro is absolutely gargantuan.
Knowing something is wrong is not elitist. It's normal.

If a band performed while high and going off note everyone will notice. But real technical musicians can notice which and what keys is wrong.

You dont need to be a master to see something is broken. You just need to be a master to fix it.

I'm not blaming fans calling ole tactics wrong. I do however got pretty irked when they claim the solution to the problem is for instance " play TFM and 352". The problem is there for everyone to see, the solution is something else.
 

The Boy

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The worst culprit is the power of hindsight. Unless the team you support dominated the game by every reasonable metric, you can quite literally blame any loss or draw on poor tactics. You disagree with the selection of a player? Well, the player that wasn't selected would have made all the difference! You disagree with the formation? Ditto. Individual errors cost you the game? Well, the coach should have spent more time on X, Y and Z in practice! A more attacking setup than usual? Naivety! More defensive setup? Cowardice! The usual setup? Lack of creativity!
I think this is one of truest paragraphs I've read on the caf and I'm just as guilty as everyone else!
 

11101

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It was also true for Fergie after poor games. Did the posters also have a point then? Maybe we should stop hiring managers and use internet polls to decide tactics and formations from now.
From a tiny proportion of internet posters maybe, i never saw or heard it in real life.

LVG and Mourinho were great managers who just didn't fit here, but let's not pretend Ole's qualifications run much further than being a popular ex-player. Wayne the shopkeeper from Salford might not know what he's talking about but that doesn't mean Ole does.

My biggest problem with Ole is that he is making mistakes that the average fan CAN spot beforehand, without the need for hindsight. Our tactics last night, Fred's red card, our failed substitutions. That never happened with the previous managers and it's a huge reason to doubt him.
 

Web of Bissaka

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Do you think the tactical opinion of a fan should hold as much value as the tactical opinion of a manager?
Only if it's reasonable with good sound arguments, then why not?

I mean, have you listen to the many opinions of past managers and players. They have plenty of opinions... and a lot of it clashes with each other so which one is right and wrong then? Even more bizarre if you listen them trying to justify their opinnions, or come up with this wacky ideas... for examples:

1) Nedved at LB will work.
2) Putting a top class CM lacking pace on the LW will work.
3) Iniesta solo CM, with just 3 defenders and 6 strikers/forwards is my best 11.
4) "Managers should not do that, should instead do this and that" (a failed manager criticizing a top manager)
5) Never manage before but the ex-players expertly say "the manager should've use this tactic and manage the player better".

No? You don't watch a lot of punditry segments?

Point being, a lot of this so called professionals also gave shit opinions. Not all of course. Where's the value in that? Blind trust... just because they had experience behind the scenes, doesn't mean they know shit.

The idea in the end is the same thing, filter any opinions; keep the good ones and reject the clear bad ones, whether it's from the professionals or these football fans armchair managers who knows shit nothing. Football is not too complicated. Since when is football complicated.
 

Zlatan 7

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Possibly mine to be fair, I absolutely popped a tit moaning about our defensive shape and our lack of movement :lol:. The latter I judged on the players holding onto the ball gesticulating and shrugging. I don't see that kind of reaction from well-oiled machines like Pep's best teams and the current Scousers so reasoned it's indicative of something going wrong in our play.
:lol:
It is frustrating I agree and the way we started annoyed me too, I just laugh at the posts saying that we are not coached or that players don’t know they’re jobs. It’s the highest level football ffs, someone who has only ever played at dinner time in school or Sunday league has no idea even though they think they know enough to absolute trash our manager
 

Trequarista10

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The most annoying part about being a football fan is having to listen to other football fans constantly blame managers for their tactics. It doesn't matter which team you support. It happens with every team, on every professional level. Am I really gonna listen to Armchair Bob, fueled by Stella and the power of hindsight, and value his opinion over a professional manager with years of experience, hours of research delivered to him/her by professionals before each game and exclusive "behind the scenes" knowledge?

The Dunning-Kruger effect is evident. You might protest and claim that you have watched football all your life and therefore don't fall into the "no experience" category, but you're wrong. You haven't managed a professional football team and you never will.

The worst culprit is the power of hindsight. Unless the team you support dominated the game by every reasonable metric, you can quite literally blame any loss or draw on poor tactics. You disagree with the selection of a player? Well, the player that wasn't selected would have made all the difference! You disagree with the formation? Ditto. Individual errors cost you the game? Well, the coach should have spent more time on X, Y and Z in practice! A more attacking setup than usual? Naivety! More defensive setup? Cowardice! The usual setup? Lack of creativity!

Ultimately it all falls back on one thing: the result. If the manager wins, then he/she got it right. In some cases people will claim that the win was lucky, though. It largely depends on the popularity of the manager and past results(I'm beginning to see a pattern).

The elephant in the room remains the same: you don't know shit. You don't know what the research behind the scenes have picked up. You don't know the thought processes and how the managers try to predict and counter each other. You don't know what is according to the plan or not. You don't know which players have performed in training or look especially motivated. You don't know which players are most suited to deal with the manager's tactics for a particular game. The only thing you do know is the end result. But you don't know how much of the loss/draw came down to failure in tactics or in-game adjustments. If tactics and in-game adjustments are responsible for 20% of the outcome(which I think is a very generous number), then the majority of losses and draws aren't primarily gonna be because of this. And it's not like tactics are binary either. There are many grey areas and you can get some things wrong and some things right.

"So we can't discuss tactics and in-game adjustments then?". Of course you can! This is a forum after all. But have at least an ounce of humility and don't talk as if you definitely have the answers, because you don't.
Fantastic post. Not the best timing, but everything you say is correct.
 

MattofManchester

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There's this fascinating thing. I mean, I'm not sure if you've heard of it, but it's got this wealth of information at your fingertips. I mean, just think about it, a little movement of the fingers and voila. I am talking about the wonderful thing called The Internet!!

Everything you want is available at your bloody fingertips. This idea that people can't learn things is so ludicrously 19th century.

If people are passionate enough, they may bother to research and analyze various ideas, movements and strategies that can help them know more so they have a better understanding of what they see. While they may not understand everything, they most certainly more than you and can make more accurate assessments on matters.

There are definitely backseat managers but there are plenty here who can pinpoint and provide analysis on how we play and you wouldn't say they're wrong.

It's ridiculous to shut others down down because you feel ignorant.

Your actual argument here is this:
X keeps acting as if he/she knows stuff. I don't know if what X says is true or not, but X is not on my telly so X must shut up because X is wrong and I am right.
 
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Champ

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Football fans have always had a complex when it comes to knowing more about the game than the next fan.

Although with the advent of football manager becoming the behemoth it is, and the media now analysing every tiny detail (someone posted a Tifo/Athletic video of our fullbacks anlysis, which consisted of 'sometimes they overlap, sometimes they run inside and underlap' whilst the guy moved some virtual players around!), fans now have access to a huge data resource previously not available, which gives them a) a greater understanding of what goes on behind the scenes, and b) a supposed better knowledge of the tactics and ways to win a game.

As with every discipline though there are qualifications to get in order to implement these ideas, coaching badges etc, which the 'average' fan does not have and so whilst they can have an opinion, its a bit like a GCSE science student taking issue with a doctor of Science.
Having said that, managers are not always right, and sometimes the fans are.

Also, theres an interesting book regarding football called: Football: The Numbers Game, which offers a massive insght into the maths behind the game, this book highlights the fact that football is actually 50% skill and 50% luck, the managers job therefore is to bring this percentage more in favour of the skill. This highlights to me that despipte the correct tactics etc being implemented you can never be sure of a victory due to the high element of luck being involved in a game of football, which proves that a 'fan' could probably outwit a manager if given a chance.
 

Gehrman

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I think the internet has increased this phenenom tenfold. Before then we could just moan a bit with our mates before getting on with it.
 

Zlatan 7

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From a tiny proportion of internet posters maybe, i never saw or heard it in real life.

LVG and Mourinho were great managers who just didn't fit here, but let's not pretend Ole's qualifications run much further than being a popular ex-player. Wayne the shopkeeper from Salford might not know what he's talking about but that doesn't mean Ole does.

My biggest problem with Ole is that he is making mistakes that the average fan CAN spot beforehand, without the need for hindsight. Our tactics last night, Fred's red card, our failed substitutions. That never happened with the previous managers and it's a huge reason to doubt him.
:lol: :lol: :lol: Did you just in a round about way compare a shop keeper to Ole. Says it all

If you can see these errors and know the fixes submit your cv
 

Schmeichel's Cartwheel

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Anyone with basic footknowledge could see that playing with 7 men men behind the ball when you need 2 goals is wrong.

In the last minutes we were booting the ball up to Greenwood & Rashford. Why didn’t we put Maguire, Scott & Pogba in the box?

“this isn’t an Ole In thread” Bollocks it isn’t. Your man is the worst manager in the league. Ole out.

Fans see Ole’s mistakes before Ole does, no need for the high & mighty “fans no nothing” shite just to protect your clueless yes man manager who will continue to lower the bar. In love with mediocrity these days aren’t we.

Yes im still pissed off.
 

OleBoiii

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No? You don't watch a lot of punditry segments?

Point being, a lot of this so called professionals also gave shit opinions.
I generally don't care about the opinions of pundits either, largely because of the same reasons given in the topic: they don't have all the facts and information. They haven't been there in the training ground and seen all the facts and had the necessary preparation. They can base more on previous experience of course, which generally makes their opinions more valid than the opinions of fans, but they still don't have enough information to draw a definite conclusion.

And there are many different ways to win a game. Just because a manager lost, it doesn't mean that he got his tactics all wrong.
 

Lynty

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I agree.

But it's a discussion forum, so football tactics will be discussed. I also enjoy theorizing over tactics.

What I find more unbearable is people thinking they have unearthed a hidden gem in a foreign league who is perfect fit for our team and we're clueless not to be interested. The reality is, there are people in full time positions who's job is to identify, track and recommend talent. Any name that we come up with, is likely already on some list at the club, through a vast web of coach connections and recommendations.

I try to sit back, enjoy the sport and stop pretending any of us good do a better job.
 

Zlatan 7

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I wasn't around in the 90s but Ferguson's record in Europe wasn't too great, was it? Leipzig are no slouch despite the first game. They exploited a weakness and went quickly 2:0 ahead. Things happen, fine margins if Bruno's freekick went in but it just wasn't meant to be.
i never felt confident in Europe while Fergie was manager, we often let teams take the lead with early goals, struggled against weak teams and very rarely did we dominate matches against the best teams.

read this forum these days and ole is not good enough to work in Tesco because we don’t dominate teams all the time
 

Zlatan 7

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Only if it's reasonable with good sound arguments, then why not?

I mean, have you listen to the many opinions of past managers and players. They have plenty of opinions... and a lot of it clashes with each other so which one is right and wrong then? Even more bizarre if you listen them trying to justify their opinnions, or come up with this wacky ideas... for examples:

1) Nedved at LB will work.
2) Putting a top class CM lacking pace on the LW will work.
3) Iniesta solo CM, with just 3 defenders and 6 strikers/forwards is my best 11.
4) "Managers should not do that, should instead do this and that" (a failed manager criticizing a top manager)
5) Never manage before but the ex-players expertly say "the manager should've use this tactic and manage the player better".

No? You don't watch a lot of punditry segments?

Point being, a lot of this so called professionals also gave shit opinions. Not all of course. Where's the value in that? Blind trust... just because they had experience behind the scenes, doesn't mean they know shit.

The idea in the end is the same thing, filter any opinions; keep the good ones and reject the clear bad ones, whether it's from the professionals or these football fans armchair managers who knows shit nothing. Football is not too complicated. Since when is football complicated.
What’s the highest level football you have ever played or been involved with?
 

OleBoiii

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What I find more unbearable is people thinking they have unearthed a hidden gem in a foreign league who is perfect fit for our team and we're clueless not to be interested. The reality is, there are people in full time positions who's job is to identify, track and recommend talent. Any name that we come up with, is likely already on some list at the club, through a vast web of coach connections and recommendations.
I didn't mention it in the topic, but this also irks me a lot :lol:

To continue your point: even with experts working fulltime on this, most transfers turn out to be failures. So even the best people in the business can be fairly satisfied with a 50% success rate.