Football fans and their "understanding" of tactics

[Oranges038]

The OP clearly states that people are entitled to debate and have their opinions.

I personally don’t listen to punditry or read the newspapers because it is “noise” i.e. it should be filtered out, in the main.

Did you ever see a pundit say “that was an entertaining game of football today, one team had some shots that went in the goal and the other side also had some shots but none of them went in the goal, maybe they will be luckier next week”?

Did you ever hear a pundit say “sure Utd conceded three goals today, but one game is far too small a Dataset to draw any conclusions whatsoever... here’s a look at United’s defensive record over the last two years under Solskjaer”?

When pundits provide that level of commentary I’ll take their opinions more seriously.

When fans on this forum highlight long term trends over bleating about literally the last game of football they watched (sometimes the last few minutes), I’ll take their opinions seriously

Whilst the pundits are determined to over-analyse, scrutinise and sensationalise every tiny detail, every action, every gesture and every decision on a per minute per game basis I will continue to dismiss it as the garbage that it is.

I would say I wouldn’t bother to try and correct the trolls and the knee-jerkers on this forum, but the problem is, it can actually have a negative impact on the club. It’s also nice for the sensible posters, like the OP, to know there are still plenty of people out there who are level-headed and patient

I agree and don't watch much of post match or half time of games. But the essence of the post is that we or pundits don't know everything that goes on so we shouldn't offer an opinion.


In my opinion, the main reasons why pundits don't do any of this is and why it is mostly garbage punditry is because the TV channels that show the games have to pay for the rights, to earn that money along with paid subscribers they show excessive amounts of ads between halves and at the end of games because they've just missed out on the regular 15 minute interval of ads they would normally show. Which leaves very little time for anything other than sensationalizing trivial things and creating sound bites for YouTube clips and hits, to guess what, generate more revenue.

 

[OleBoiii]

Agreed.

But that's not what you've posted, your pretty much saying that any opinions from people not personally involved will all facts and information at hand are invalid, which to an extent is true in because anyone outside of the team has no impact at all. But isn't that that the point of talking about the game?

I think you're conflating my points a bit(perhaps I should have split the topic into more paragraphs). The fact that "fans don't know shit" and that "any loss technically could be blamed on tactics" are two different points.

You are of course free to say that you think Player A should start instead of Player B, for instance. I think I have done the same on several occasions(at least before kick off). That is, like you say, a big part of the forum. That is not what I'm talking about in this thread. Hence the other example I posted to you.

I'm not in favor of censorship so I get that I will have to continue to internally facepalm every time I see or hear someone with delusional confidence. That is inescapable in society. It is way more common among sports fans and children/teenagers, though.

Since I can't single-handedly change the culture, nor do I want to as I don't think I'm better than anyone, I can at the very least express my opinion in a thread. Maybe someone takes it to heart, but I doubt it. At least I got to share my opinion, which is one of the main points of an internet forum anyways. I'm also happy to see that I'm far from the only one in here feeling the same way about this topic.

 

[Cascarino]

I think

It's revisionist to think that Fergie didn't suffer the same criticism, though to a lesser degree because he won more games. Isn't there a thread in here about "zombie football" that dates all the way back to the Fergie era?

That was a bit different, the thread was in no way questioning or criticising Ferguson and his coaching ability/tactical awareness, just that the football wasn’t easy on the eye towards the end compared to previous Fergie teams. Which supporters have every right to have an opinion on, even if after the last 6 years would have a lot of United fans laughing at those complaints.

As for your thread, I think you have a general point when it comes to the severe underestimating of how much work goes into the game at the highest level. I’ve been doing my coaching badges for the last few years, and while I have no interest in going into management I’ve worked with plenty who have managerial experience, while a couple have baffled me with fact they can even string a sentence together, most have been incredibly knowledgeable about the game and an utter joy to listen to, and you wouldn’t have always known if you’d only watched their teams, which were usually slumming it out in non-league or the Welsh domestic league. So we only get a little glimpse into their working process and most of the time have no idea of the challenges they face and the conditions they’re working under.

Having just said I agree partly about your point, I do think you’re being hypocritical because people have criticised your favourite manager.

I actually get sick just thinking about Moyes. Did he even get ONE thing right?

Moyes has worked in high level management for decades and has achieved more than Solskjær. So I’d argue that you can’t give people a finger wagging for criticising Ole, and yet you can throw out hyperbolic statements like the one I’ve just quoted.

 

[horsechoker]

I don't think it's wrong to want Ole out but it seems that their solution is to roll the managerial dice and hope we get it right without making structural changes which go beyond the manager.

If Poch fails then what?

 

[OleBoiii]

and I do think you’re being hypocritical

I don't remember the thread or the context for that post, but when it comes to Moyes my main criticism has always been his terrible results. To drag the champions down to 7th place is such an extreme failure that I didn't even consider that a possibility at the time. I genuinely thought we'd get 4th at worst regardless of who was in charge.

As an amateur I could never pinpoint exactly what Moyes did wrong tactically. But based on his extreme failure over the course of a season(i.e not isolated games), I think it's fair to say that he did a lot of things wrong.

That's not to say that anyone in here could have done better.

 

[Oranges038]

I think you're conflating my points a bit(perhaps I should have split the topic into more paragraphs). The fact that "fans don't know shit" and that "any loss technically could be blamed on tactics" are two different points.

You are of course free to say that you think Player A should start instead of Player B, for instance. I think I have done the same on several occasions(at least before kick off). That is, like you say, a big part of the forum. That is not what I'm talking about in this thread. Hence the other example I posted to you.

I'm not in favor of censorship so I get that I will have to continue to internally facepalm every time I see or hear someone with delusional confidence. That is inescapable in society. It is way more common among sports fans and children/teenagers, though.

Since I can't single-handedly change the culture, nor do I want to as I don't think I'm better than anyone, I can at the very least express my opinion in a thread. Maybe someone takes it to heart, but I doubt it. At least I got to share my opinion, which is one of the main points of an internet forum anyways. I'm also happy to see that I'm far from the only one in here feeling the same way about this topic.

You are right, fans don't know shit about what is said to the team and it is easy for tactics to be blamed on any loss. We have no idea of what tactics are employed by the manager or what is said in the dressing room or what instructions players are given. But you can build up a knowledge and understanding from playing and watching at any standard to be able to form your own opinions on different things about the game.


In my experience no fan genuinely thinks they know better than the manager, I don't know any that are that delusional. As football fans we have all questioned why certain players played or why the team is set up a certain way. Those are just personal observations, queries and opinions derided from watching the games. Nobody can speak with foresight, so all we have is live football that is happening right before us and hindsight. So we all can only go by what we see during the match. Whether the opinions are educated or not is why discussion forums like this exist.

 

[tomaldinho1]

@OleBoiii as one of the most high volume, agenda driven posters on here - this is funny because essentially you're saying fans don't know shit and so shouldn't talk about things they don't understand. Hopefully that irony is not lost on you.

What is even funnier is that in a pro Ole thread you highlight Dunning-Kruger which is directly applicable to Ole and backed up by the evidence of his own press conferences

 

[eire-red]

I understand your sentiment. Of course the players, coaches, etc. have way more knowledge and experience when it comes to team selection, preparation, what goes on behind the scenes and all that.

I don't think any fans actually believe that they are in any way comparable tactically to the pro's that play the game. But what fans are entitled to point out is that something clearly is wrong. It could be a multitude of factors, but you don't consistently fall behind in games if something isn't right from the beginning.

How often have we seen Ole have to tweak this or that at half time, and to be honest some of the time the changes aren't ground breaking. You could see after 5 minutes last night the back 5 was a bad idea. The worst part is that Ole said in his presser before that we couldn't sit back and hope for a 0-0. But that's exactly how we set up. He knew, but I think he bottled the team selection, and we played the ultimate price.

RB exploited our weaknesses so easily it has to raise the question of how tactically inept we are, that a team with no standout players of star quality could possibly dominate us in every aspect for 75 minutes. And I don't think we should over complicate the matter on saying that 'armchair fans' think they're tactical geniuses, more often that not its simple team selection that we have issues with, things that don't just sit right at all, decisions that seem to lack common sense. Like playing a diamond against Arsenal, effectively sacrificing width against a back 5. That's not groundbreaking to analyse how that went wrong.

We're not talking about fine margins here. We were completely dominated and found ourselves 3-0 down in a game we absolutely could not afford to lose. Doesn't bode well if we ever want to get back to the top, does it.

 

[MattyLT]

I agree that football fans usually are guilty of talking/writing like there's ONE problem with ONE solution at any ONE time. It's my impression that a general theme coming from those with experience in football management, is that there are a million little things that come into play, and that good management is about getting as many as those little things as possible to work in your favour. Say, a player being out of position in so and so situations can be a result of those many little things, and the fix may be far more complicated than "just give him an attacking mentality" and "so and so instructions" like you would in Football Manager. In real life, those things probably have a lot to do with the balance of the team, the amount of training on specific things over time, and players natural inclinations to do certain things and play a certain way.

But other than that, I think football fans are generally more than enough football competent to watch a game, and make accurate assessments on what's happening on the pitch, what's working and what needs to be rectified. It's just that our understanding of what it takes in real life to actually do something about it, probably more often than not aren't within the boundaries of reality. I've lost count of the many times I've wanted to pull my hairs, and shout: "Why doesn't the manager do so and so? Everyone can see it, why can't the manager?" But in reality, we're usually talking about people who have forgotten more about football than I'll ever know. Obviously, they see it as well. And obviously, they're working on it. And there are so many parameters in play, things we know to be true, but generally don't put much stock in (because they tend to sound like excuses), things like: confidence, happiness, being in the zone, having a habit of winning (which again you might get from a bit of luck), circumstance, coincidence and so on.

 

[JakeC]

Imagine getting high and mighty about people talking about football.. On a football forum... Have a word.

 

[soapythecat]

if you watch United every game, you don’t need to hold a UEFA Pro license to see we are not a well drilled team. We have been very lucky to stay in matches. Setup, tactics, coaching,, management - you name it what you like, we are a team with good players that plays a very average way.
He’ll be gone before the season ends so it’s all irrelevant anyway.

 

[Lynty]

I don't think it's wrong to want Ole out but it seems that their solution is to roll the managerial dice and hope we get it right without making structural changes which go beyond the manager.

If Poch fails then what?

Well said

 

[eire-red]

I agree and don't watch much of post match or half time of games. But the essence of the post is that we or pundits don't know everything that goes on so we shouldn't offer an opinion.


In my opinion, the main reasons why pundits don't do any of this is and why it is mostly garbage punditry is because the TV channels that show the games have to pay for the rights, to earn that money along with paid subscribers they show excessive amounts of ads between halves and at the end of games because they've just missed out on the regular 15 minute interval of ads they would normally show. Which leaves very little time for anything other than sensationalizing trivial things and creating sound bites for YouTube clips and hits, to guess what, generate more revenue.

Along with what you stated, I think a lot of it is to do with the fact that majority of viewers are more casual viewers. Pundits have to cater to everybody, and I think the average fan is not as invested as, for example, many of the active members on here who are probably a little more knowledgeable and passionate just from seeing different opinions and viewpoints on this forum day in, day out.

MNF is a little better as Neville and Carra have more time to do a bit more in depth analysis, but again it's often words and opinions that aren't really backed with a whole lot of substance.

 

[eire-red]

I don't think it's wrong to want Ole out but it seems that their solution is to roll the managerial dice and hope we get it right without making structural changes which go beyond the manager.

If Poch fails then what?

This is why a DoF is needed. Every other top team in Europe are more aggressive in sacking and hiring managers than us, and don't require 2/3 seasons of 'transition'.

Woodward isn't capable of assembling a squad fit for a title challenge independently of the manager. This is a problem. While you are right that we seem to be rolling the dice as you put it, neither is it right to persist with a wrong decision (hiring Ole) on the basis that there are no guarantees that the next manager will be a success.

There are no guarantees in football. Sacking Ole is a huge risk, but so is not sacking him. It's the job of a CEO to weigh these risks up and decide the correct course of action. Nothing we have seen over the last 7 years points to Woodward's ability to do this, which is worrying.

 

[Paul_Scholes18]

I don't think he was wrong to set us up for counter, but we defended so poorly. Not compact enough feeling as if we did not know what to do.
Decent on the counter at times, but our strikers did not have a good day.

 

[Nick7]

I don’t know shit about tactics outside of FM, but I also know our set up last night was suicidal and picked apart effortlessly. Why isn’t that worthy of criticism?

 

[Chipper]

I'll admit to not knowing much about tactics, but then I don't talk about them too often. They're not something I'm particularly fascinated by on a deep level. I mean I've watched the sport regularly for 35 years so have obviously picked things up but have never studied tactical theory.

I'm crap at football manager unless I use downloaded tactics but then football manager isn't football and finding the best way to beat a computer game doesn't really have anything to do with the best way to play football. Can sometimes see when people do and cringe a bit although seeing as they're at least showing more interest in tactics than me I should probably praise them for their enthusiasm, at least they have that.

Kind of have the same reaction when some dude makes a youtube video, putting arrows on the screen pointing out this and that. Think they often pick out things that are just isolated incidents that are not necessarily part of an overall tactical framework, or other times that they're just stating the obvious, probably thinking they're dead clever. At least they're trying though, more than me.That side of things isn't really my thing.

 

[OleBoiii]

But what fans are entitled to point out is that something clearly is wrong.

Sure, fans can see that something is wrong when the other team creates more chances than you(or scores more goals for that matter). And they are both entitled to and correct when pointing this out.

The problem arrives when you exclusively blame a loss on poor tactics and arrogantly points to exactly what part of the tactic the manager got wrong, followed by claiming that it's "obvious for everyone but the manager". It's a common theme in here and wherever you find football fans. And it's moronic.

Is it not possible to get the tactics right and

- be outplayed regardless?
- have individual errors let you down?
- simply have a bad day?
- get fecked over by poor refereeing?
- a combination of all of the above?

Apart from the refereeing point: how can you, as a fan with no top manager experience, know for sure that it was completely or partly because of the manager's tactics that the game was lost/drawn, and not any of the other reasons listed above?

 

[tenpoless]

Some football fans are PE teachers in real life so their opinions could be valid

 

[passing-wind]

Yawn

 

[SAFMUTD]

So I guess its laughable when we criticize the players since there's no way we know better than them who are professionals and have been playing for years.

 

[Pretzels81]

This ain't the 20th anymore. You have multiple tv programs, videos and videogames to fully understand the game and its tactics.

 

[Cascarino]

I don't remember the thread or the context for that post, but when it comes to Moyes my main criticism has always been his terrible results. To drag the champions down to 7th place is such an extreme failure that I didn't even consider that a possibility at the time. I genuinely thought we'd get 4th at worst regardless of who was in charge.

As an amateur I could never pinpoint exactly what Moyes did wrong tactically. But based on his extreme failure over the course of a season(i.e not isolated games), I think it's fair to say that he did a lot of things wrong.

That's not to say that anyone in here could have done better.

I think that’s a fair rebuttal and I would agree, Moyes was a disaster during his time at United. It’s just that a lot of the points you’ve (correctly) made about how we don’t get to see the inner workings and the difficulties they’re working under apply to that season. Moyes took over from arguably the greatest manager ever, who had been the driving force of the club for three decades. On top of that many of the best players were nearing the end, and the squad was filled with plenty of players that performed over themselves in part due to the Ferguson affect.

I still think he was a disaster though, and I can point out plenty of reasons as to why he failed. He made plenty of tactical mistakes, his transfer business was poor, his man-management was poor. I don’t need to be a premier league manager to see that, and it’s taken for granted that I personally don’t think I could have done better, so that’s why I don’t qualify my statements with “but I couldn’t have done better” every time I criticise a manager. You argued that Moyes didn’t get one thing right, how can you as an amateur with no coaching experience make that call? It’s the exact thing you’re complaining about in your opening post. You’ve made a lot of good points in this thread and I largely agree with them, but there’s some cognitive dissonance going on too.

 

[RedDevil@84]

I agree with the general notion that OP is putting out. But good luck here. You will end up fighting loads of people who will accuse you of being an Ole agent.

But on the topic, when fans are allowed to praise a manager's tactics, I think they are well entitled to criticize it. Same with players

 

[OleBoiii]

So I guess its laughable when we criticize the players since there's no way we know better than them who are professionals and have been playing for years.

Hardly the same, as players ultimately are criticized for their output(i.e. result) or shit they do in the media. It's perfectly fine to criticize a manager's overall results too.

 

[SAFMUTD]

Hardly the same, as players ultimately are criticized for their output(i.e. result) or shit they do in the media. It's perfectly fine to criticize a manager's overall results too.

That logic is nonsense, we can either critique both or none. Can't have it both ways, both have superior football knowledge that us.

Thats the typical argument coaches use to defend themselves against pundits, a poor argument to be honest. We may not know how to implement tactics but it doesnt take much to identify when the coach has feck it up.

 

[OleBoiii]

You argued that Moyes didn’t get one thing right, how can you as an amateur with no coaching experience make that call? It’s the exact thing you’re complaining about in your opening post.

I didn't, though. I asked a semi-rhetorical question: "did he even get one thing right?!"

As an amateur can't answer this and nor can anyone else. But he seems to have gotten so much wrong(based on his poor results, poor press conferences and statements from ex-players) that it's plausible that he got pretty much everything wrong. And that would include the tactics, even though I wouldn't be able to tell for sure(hence the question mark).

We seem to mainly agree, though.

 

[eire-red]

Sure, fans can see that something is wrong when the other team creates more chances than you(or scores more goals for that matter). And they are both entitled to and correct when pointing this out.

The problem arrives when you exclusively blame a loss on poor tactics and arrogantly points to exactly what part of the tactic the manager got wrong, followed by claiming that it's "obvious for everyone but the manager". It's a common theme in here and wherever you find football fans. And it's moronic.

Is it not possible to get the tactics right and

- be outplayed regardless?
- have individual errors let you down?
- simply have a bad day?
- get fecked over by poor refereeing?
- a combination of all of the above?

Apart from the refereeing point: how can you, as a fan with no top manager experience, know for sure that it was completely or partly because of the manager's tactics that the game was lost/drawn, and not any of the other reasons listed above?

Of course, you can set the team up in a perfect way, and someone gives a stupid penalty away and that's it, tough luck. Or a bad decision as you said, or an injury mid game. A myriad of things can go wrong in a match.

However, is that really the case for us these past weeks? We've conceded first how often? Twice from near post corners, against West Brom we we had the penalty overturned (how in gods name who knows), we start games poorly time and time again. We see changes now at half time, or early in the game almost every match.

When it clicks, we are destroying teams in 10/15 min spells. At times Rashford looks unstoppable playing in behind. Why don't we see it more often?

As to your last question, we can never fully pin a bad result on one single thing. But one constant we are seeing all season is how we start games. It can't be down to anything else at this stage other than bad tactics, bad team selection, bad decision making, whatever you want to call it. So we can certainly say tactics are a contributing factor, especially when more often than not the system, formation and way that we start the game is not how we end it.

 

[OleBoiii]

That logic is nonsense, we can either critique both or none. Can't have it both ways, both have superior football knowledge that us.

We're comparing apples and oranges. Regardless of level of knowledge, a win is a win and a goal is a goal. It's not really open to interpretation.

Unless you have a concrete way of proving that what you're saying is true, then you better have a damn good resume and inside knowledge for your opinion on tactics to hold any water. As I listed in a post above: there are plenty of ways to lose a game. Tactics is just one aspect.

 

[Di Maria's angel]

Must count for something when there are professionals who can see our glaring issues as well? If we, the fans, were the only ones claiming to recognise issues that no one else could, then you could say so.

For instance, under Jose and LvG, our issues were obvious in both cases. Fans, ex-players, and ex-managers were all pointing out the same problems. Its up to you whether you want to dismiss the average persons opinion.

And you don't have to be a professional to have an understanding of something. Football doesn't require an insane form of intelligence. Most players come off as stupid as feck as it is.

 

[SAFMUTD]

We're comparing apples and oranges. Regardless of level of knowledge, a win is a win and a goal is a goal. It's not really open to interpretation.

Unless you have a concrete way of proving that what you're saying is true, then you better have a damn good resume and inside knowledge for your opinion on tactics to hold any water. As I listed in a post above: there are plenty of ways to lose a game. Tactics is just one aspect.

That logic about a win is a win a goal is a goal applies to coaching as well. How can players be so definitive but coaches arent?

Tactics is not just one aspect, when the forces/talent on the pitch are leveled tactics is the main aspect. Besides talent its the second most important thing in the game.

 

[Florida Man]

I don't think it's wrong to want Ole out but it seems that their solution is to roll the managerial dice and hope we get it right without making structural changes which go beyond the manager.

If Poch fails then what?

Well have you considered that you don’t know the ins and outs of the structural components of a football club? Therefore you shouldn’t comment on it because Woodward has far more experience than you ever will.

 

[Sky1981]

It's akin to watching a movie,

You can definitely say Copolla's movie is better than Michael Bay's, you watched alot of movies to know which actors acts better, which actors hit a bland note. You just don't know what's wrong, and how to rectify it. Probably the camera angle is wrong, probably the color tone is wrong, probably the cinematography is off, you don't know. But you sure as hell certified to say A is better than B.

Now critics (pundits) may have more insight on what's wrong behind the screen, they can tell us to a certain point technicalities that made certain movie better, but they may or may not be able to improve the movie.

Now some do noir (tiki Taka), some do action (SAF 442), so do drama (Defensive Mourinho football) which may not be your taste, but you still can appreciate is as a good movie. Some movie are just plain B movie (us during moyes) there's no redeeming it.

tldr; we're qualified to critized, we're not qualified to fix it.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

I'm of the opposite conviction really. Football isnt nearly as complicated as we think and seeing as John Heitinga passed the exam for pro football trainer the minimum requirement to become one is having a barely 2 digid IQ.

It's about managing bratty millionaires more than some sort of higher understanding of the best way to kick a ball in the goal.

Probably not.

If it were pure chess, we wouldn't see a supposed genius like Nagelsmann getting his arse handed to him by a supposed PE teacher like Ole. Remember - that actually happened earlier this season. Easy to forget in the aftermath of last night's match - but it did happen. How? Did the genius forget to wear his genius pants that night?

Spoiler: Er...yeah

It's mostly about the quality of the players. And then about the ability to get a tune out of those players - over a period of time. It hardly ever lasts - there will be a backlash, a recoil of some sort, sooner or later.

The number of managers who have been able to build multiple successful teams at one and the same club, one following the other, is tiny. They're extreme outliers. And nothing suggests that their success is down to being superior "tactically" to everyone else.

 

[horsechoker]

Well have you considered that you don’t know the ins and outs of the structural components of a football club? Therefore you shouldn’t comment on it because Woodward has far more experience than you ever will.

Then we can't criticise anyone. Ole, Woody, Glazers, players.

 

[Client6]

@OleBoiii Good thread! Finally, someone was arsed enough to say it. The last line about "humility" was spot on.

In another thread I criticized Ole for starting with the team he did yesterday but apparently, they trained with that shape. He also said in his post-match that they anticipated what RBL would do and that's exactly what they did. The goals were so ridiculous that the players need to look in the mirror. These are professionals FFS!

Having said that, whilst I am still backing Ole with all humility, yesterday was a horror show from him as well and that's without any hindsight. He got what he deserved and hopefully he gets a reality-check because alongwith the players, he too is inexperienced.

 

[Ferguson’s Hairdryer]

I disagree. I think it’s an insult when managers, who are media favourites, get criticised and suddenly the narrative becomes “football people know and can see what he’s doing / trying to do” then suddenly the opinions/knowledge of the fans suddenly becomes worthless. I first noticed it with Moyes, he often said “football people know what I’m doing” then the media / pundits used similar lines to completely try and discredit fans who thought he was out of his depth.

Like Glenn Hoddle said yesterday it isn’t “rocket science”. And when it comes to in game match IQ seeing what a manager is doing right or wrong during a match, i would say the majority of people, who have average or above intelligence, and have accumulated experience by watching matches week in week out can judge very well.

Regarding Glenn Hoddle, he was talking about the change in the second half. When United started playing much better in the second half. He said simply, before United had Matic and McTomminay sitting, now they have DVB supporting Bruno. During the first half I, and I’m sure 100000s of other fans felt the same thing, bring on either DVB or Pogba and we can play more instead of getting torn apart.

The genius in football management lies in the development of a playing style, the motivation of players, coaching and improving players etc.

 

[Delano]

What I don't understand is, if we can all sit here and say "Ole doesn't have a settled shape, his tactics are reactive and he relies on our individual quality" is that mute until an ex pro or coach says it? Because Lineker spent all night saying the same thing. The same goes for Jornos, should I cancel my Athletic subscription now because none of them have coached a top team?

Yes, as fans of the club people will post out of pure emotion and we always will. But I'd hazard a guess that some fans have played at a decent level, have their badges or have watched football for years. You can't generalise in these statements.

Finally, as fans, we have every right to point out what we see on the pitch. If that means we can say we look behind teams like Liverpool tactically, then we should.

 

[Toni's Left Foot]

That expert of tactics in that video

"4 Prone Triangle"

A square?

 

[Florida Man]

Then we can't criticise anyone. Ole, Woody, Glazers, players.

Exactly. We should close the forum down.