I’d do something really simple like changing the warm up routine, do something different. We’re just not starting games well enough and we can’t keep relying on comebacks. It’s probably a mix of attitude and preparation. Get them to do a pre kick off warm up or something like some teams do so they’re good to go in that first tackle
Attitude or preparation?
- Thread starter Adam-Utd
- Start date
United have too many players who are incapable of putting in consistent 7/8 out of 10 performances. They go from 8-4 from match to match and even during matches. Good teams have 'pairings' all around the field, two or three players who know each others games completely, pass and move instinctively, cover each other defensively without thinking. United appear to have none of those combos. We have defenders who don't cover each other, a GK who doesn't bark out orders, midfielders who wander over the field seemingly at random, and forwards who rarely if ever combine and pass to each other but indulge in useless 'flicks'.
United have had 4 managers and coaching staff since Fergie, the players are now completely different to the one's Fergie had, yet the same problems occur time and time again. Players are bought, at first they look good, then their performances decline in exactly the same way. It also applies to kids promoted from the youths.
Mentally its as if they start afresh every match. Often teams create confidence from good comebacks like United have had recently, but not this group of players. Almost every match they look like they are waiting for something to happen to get them going, someone to do something special to make them believe in themselves. Good teams don't wait , they make it happen.
I don't have an answer, perhaps there isn't one. I don't think it will get better just by spending money, its been tried. Changing managers doesn't help over any period over an initial 2/3 months. Perhaps somehow this is just the way of things. Clubs go through cycles of amazing success and then relative fallow periods. Most of course never reach the heights United have done so don't feel the sudden drop. For instance the mighty Barca's recent era started 10 years after United's latest golden period, but is now ending 10 years after United's. That span of time, 20 years seems to be the limit of every club's ability to keep on top.
Its probably going to be another 10 years before United find that golden edge again, we should probably just get used to the idea.
United have had 4 managers and coaching staff since Fergie, the players are now completely different to the one's Fergie had, yet the same problems occur time and time again. Players are bought, at first they look good, then their performances decline in exactly the same way. It also applies to kids promoted from the youths.
Mentally its as if they start afresh every match. Often teams create confidence from good comebacks like United have had recently, but not this group of players. Almost every match they look like they are waiting for something to happen to get them going, someone to do something special to make them believe in themselves. Good teams don't wait , they make it happen.
I don't have an answer, perhaps there isn't one. I don't think it will get better just by spending money, its been tried. Changing managers doesn't help over any period over an initial 2/3 months. Perhaps somehow this is just the way of things. Clubs go through cycles of amazing success and then relative fallow periods. Most of course never reach the heights United have done so don't feel the sudden drop. For instance the mighty Barca's recent era started 10 years after United's latest golden period, but is now ending 10 years after United's. That span of time, 20 years seems to be the limit of every club's ability to keep on top.
Its probably going to be another 10 years before United find that golden edge again, we should probably just get used to the idea.
As a group yes, but individually its each and everyones responsibility to be focused and sharp.
No doubt it is a huge problem though. We simply cant keep on starting our games in 3rd gear and only wake up once we concede
I think you do him a massive disservice.
This is an experienced manager (despite what people on here believe), he has also got experience at playing football at the very highest level in the toughest of circumstances.
He is one tough cookie, https://www.fourfourtwo.com/feature...ally-like-interview-manchester-united-manager
He has learnt from the very best, and has played with some real nasty characters, so despite the way he carries himself in the media there is definetly a harder edge to him.
Have you seen the video of the Molde training session where he implores the striker to shoot? This small minute long clip highlights Ole's ability to cut through a jovial atmosphere in seconds, without ever really getting supremely angry or raising his voice fully. Theres a certain ability to this - something SAF had, Pep also has, Klopp too, and many other top managers, the ability to be trusting and firendly to his players whilst simultaneously having teh ability to switch into a managerial mode and dictate that player at will.
Admittedly none of this is of any concern to why we don't start games in the right fashion, however Ole has taken the flack for this in his post game presser, so hopefully we see this rectified, although its a big issue that it's carried on this long already.
The issue I have with starting games is it happens a full 24 hours before the match - the pre match prep will involve the training before tha game, the pre match talks, the meals, the pre match warm up etc, all this Ole alluded to being correct and present during his presser.
We know it's not fitness or fatigue causing this courtesy of so many late goals, so the fact that it happens at the beginning of games would suggest to me that the players are not fully alert and warmed up in the pre game warm up. This rings true also at half time - generally the second half performances have been far better than the first, however we genrally take 5 to 10 minutes in the second half to get going. This would signify to me that the players again are not alert and ready, maybe they are taking their caffiene tablets too late before KO? Maybe they are just not fully mobile due to a fairly light warmup?
The set-up is generally a tactic we've have been poor in, though.
Sure I guess we've got some decent results out of it on some occasions but ,on a whole, we certainly dont look comfortable playing it. Great choice to set-up us up like that last night Ole against quality opposition.
Sure I guess we've got some decent results out of it on some occasions but ,on a whole, we certainly dont look comfortable playing it. Great choice to set-up us up like that last night Ole against quality opposition.
Yesterday's first half tactics were horrible. Trying new formations but with little time to prepare between games or even pre season was a big mistake.
Is the OP question "Is it attitude or preparation"? I don't really get it.
It is clearly attitude with this team, half of them don't give a solitary shit that we're conceding goals. Look at Maguire when we concede he just goes "meh" and walks back to his mark. I'd much rather see everyone tearing strips off each other and at near fisticuffs for some of the absolute shit defending than a backline that clearly doesn't give a shit if they concede because there is no consequences to it.
I'm zagging on this one and saying that this defensive unit is on par with those shitty Silvestre-Brown era calamities and it is purely the case that we overpaid a bunch of wank who know they won't get pelters for being shit and can turn up week in week out disappointing everyone with zero consequences. Look at the combined list of trophies that this lot have won in their careers and look how much they are being paid to play for this club.
It is clearly attitude with this team, half of them don't give a solitary shit that we're conceding goals. Look at Maguire when we concede he just goes "meh" and walks back to his mark. I'd much rather see everyone tearing strips off each other and at near fisticuffs for some of the absolute shit defending than a backline that clearly doesn't give a shit if they concede because there is no consequences to it.
I'm zagging on this one and saying that this defensive unit is on par with those shitty Silvestre-Brown era calamities and it is purely the case that we overpaid a bunch of wank who know they won't get pelters for being shit and can turn up week in week out disappointing everyone with zero consequences. Look at the combined list of trophies that this lot have won in their careers and look how much they are being paid to play for this club.
- UEFA Europa League: 2016–17
- Süper Lig: 2014–15
- Turkish Cup: 2013–14, 2014–15
- Turkish Super Cup: 2015
- Primeira Liga: 2013–14, 2015–16, 2016–17, 2017–18, 2019–20
- Taça de Portugal: 2013–14, 2016–17, 2019–20
Like I said in my first post, I may be wrong, Mrs Volumiza tells me often enough that I am so there must be some credence to it. However, I have seen all sorts of intervies and yes, I have seen that video, but that doesn't change my opinion of him. I like him. Legend here and always will be. We all knew how SAF would fire his players up before a match, his speeches were legendary. We've seen Pep and Jose on the All or Nothing series and I imagine those two can prepare a team for battle each week.
Now look at how we start matches, how inconsistent we are and some of the haphazard performances we put in, it is very difficult to argue positively for Ole preparing the team well. Rightly or wrongly, my perception of Ole is that he wouldn't be able to inspire the players anywhere near as effectively as those three and I know it's probably an unfair comparison but those are the levels we need. It is only my perception though.
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Teams press us because they know we don't like pressure, we've become Wenger's Arsenal. Press them enough and eventually you'll force an error.
Apart from Bruno I can't really think of another player we have who can play comfortably when being pressed.
If we'd played remotely well in the second half last night we'd have scored 4 or 5 again, they'd run themselves into the ground in the first half and Naglesmann smartest move was making the two subs around the 55 minute mark. The fresh legs and Kluivert's pressing made the game a lot more difficult from that point.
Apart from Bruno I can't really think of another player we have who can play comfortably when being pressed.
If we'd played remotely well in the second half last night we'd have scored 4 or 5 again, they'd run themselves into the ground in the first half and Naglesmann smartest move was making the two subs around the 55 minute mark. The fresh legs and Kluivert's pressing made the game a lot more difficult from that point.
I see the opposite, instead of passing the ball around midfield for the sake of it the aim of our play is to be as direct as possible. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with that
Without being a part of that dressing room, perception is all we have, ands it's good to a degree that our fan base has multiple perceptions of what goes on as it will open our eyes to what could potentially be incorrect about the preperation for games.
One thing is for sure, and you are 100% correct, its diffult to suggest that the preperation for games is working right now - it has happened way to often for it to be a mere blip.
There are multiple ways of firing a team up for a game, I remember the players after beating Munich in the Champions League final saying that SAF didn't rage at them or give them the hairdryer at half time, instead he asked them how they'd feel walking past that trophy at the end of the game without being able to lift it up... He then said to us 'this is the European Cup final - some of you may never get here again - make sure when you come in at full-time that you have given your all and left nothing on the pitch'
SImple words, and shows how you can change things without shouting or appearing to be mean. I admit, similar to you, that I cannot see Ole making a similar team talk, however our second half performances and comebacks must have come from somewhere, am i am willing to give Ole some credit for that.
I actually disagree here, I think Ole's pre-match talk is possibly 90% revolved around nostalgic anecdotes or soundbites.
Likely one of the reasons we come out flat is because the players feel like they've just left a university lector.
And lets not forget that there were alot of press conferences last season where Ole would go on about SAF and 'the old days' ad nauseam or it certainly felt like it.
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That's a fair point, I would counter that though by asking how long should we give him to learn how to get them fired up from the first whistle? You're suggesting he can do it over half time and there's evidence to back that up but why do we need to wait until half time for the players to be mentally ready for battle?
Actually both I guess.
4 out of 5 games the tactics are just wrong from the start. I believe players are not briefed enough about the opponents.
Plus, most of our players lack half of brain. They are just not smart enough and they are not trained in terms of adjusting their position, reaction or adaptability. As well it's clear we don't have any leaders in the first eleven. Bruno is great, but it's not enough when most of the players are wrecks when put under pressure.
4 out of 5 games the tactics are just wrong from the start. I believe players are not briefed enough about the opponents.
Plus, most of our players lack half of brain. They are just not smart enough and they are not trained in terms of adjusting their position, reaction or adaptability. As well it's clear we don't have any leaders in the first eleven. Bruno is great, but it's not enough when most of the players are wrecks when put under pressure.
Thats an interesting point, and I can see why you may think that, he does like to bring up the SAF days, however I find it hard to believe he stands in front of the team and reminisce's about the 'good old days' before the game.
Maybe you're right and this is the reason why they don't get going, they are sleepy and lethargic from another monologue about SAF!
I feel he likes to quip in the media about the SAF days as it hightens the culture he wants to bring back - it's another use of his language that is actually quite clever. What better way to bring back a culture between fans, and the team then interjecting conferences and interviews with what SAF would have done. It makes us the fans relate to teh team more as we bring back all the good memories, and this may translate to the players somewhat too.
However, we need to understand here that Ole has been a successful manager at Molde (just don't mention cardiff!) I find it difficult to believe that he used all sorts of stories about SAF there, so he must have picked up some techniques on how to deal with players with regards to pre match preperation and a pre match meeting etc.
the interesting point in all this though is the use of culture at Barcelona, they drum into their players their history, the Cruyff era, the 'More than a club' mantra, this actually assists the plauyers in getting used to the club and buying into the long term culture. This is a similar principle to what Ole is bring to United, and this can only happen with bringing up history constantly. Although their is a time and place for this granted.
It’s abit of both. But I would also like to bring in another aspect - our captain.
The captain should be there to set the tempo that the team play with, to get them to carry out the manager’s instructions. He’s the one who’s supposed to motivate his players. He doesn’t have to shout all the time like a Keano but he needs to demonstrate with his actions(Beckham)Maguire seems to slow the tempo down a lot with his constant dwindling on the ball at the back. It’s no wonder that the rest of the team also follow suit.
The captain should be there to set the tempo that the team play with, to get them to carry out the manager’s instructions. He’s the one who’s supposed to motivate his players. He doesn’t have to shout all the time like a Keano but he needs to demonstrate with his actions(Beckham)Maguire seems to slow the tempo down a lot with his constant dwindling on the ball at the back. It’s no wonder that the rest of the team also follow suit.
Preparation it comes from the coaching and management which is being unfolded for the entire footballing world to see.
Exactly that , thats the crux of the issue, why does it take until half time to sort this out.
As I say - it's not fitness, it's not fatigue at the start of the game, personally I put it down to the players not being sharp enough and switched on enough.
What I mean by that is to start a game your body needs to be ready straight from the whistle, both mentally and physically. The mental side comes from personal motivation as well as managerial motivation, however the players seem to be working relatively hard, based on distances run, sprints etc so maybe it's personal motivation? Maybe Ole does need to get hardline to motivate the players personally? The lack of depth we still hvae in certain positions maybe a key, they don't fear to be dropped?
The other side is physical, now United are one of the fittest sides in the league now, however that means little when the players aren't warm before the game. Look at Leeds, Villa and Liverpool, they are out on the pitch minutes before KO, and at half time running through resistance drills or small shuttles to get their players sharp and to burn off some of the nervous energy they may have. Not saying this is the definitive answer, but maybe we should look at starting this minutes before the game starts rather than the standard routine of warm up, team talk then out onto the pitch. This rings true of half time as well, as we are generally slow after HT too. I don't see United doing these warm ups mere minutes before KO unless I am mistaken?
As I say, just my opinions, they are not the answers but just my summaries.
Forget about his playing career and concentrate on Ole the man.
He isn't an inspirational or imposing figure. He doesn't generate confidence in others whether on the touchline or in a presser. He tries to be a diplomat (e.g the current Raiola situation) when he actually needs to show he has real steel.
He makes excuses when there are really none to be made. There's no obvious fire in his belly or energy and emotion when he speaks about big games. Listening to him is always, frankly, a bit boring because his tone is monotonous and his choice of words is dull.
On this basis, what are the chances of a team talk with him being truly motivational? You could point to the fact that we keep coming back from being behind, but all that says is we're not actually prepared properly from the off. And what is being said in the dressing room at OT before games? Whatever the words are, they aren't effective.
We will never know what happens within the squad between the players and the coaches, but nothing points towards the players holding the coaches and managers in high regard, which has to be worrying and unsustainable.
He isn't an inspirational or imposing figure. He doesn't generate confidence in others whether on the touchline or in a presser. He tries to be a diplomat (e.g the current Raiola situation) when he actually needs to show he has real steel.
He makes excuses when there are really none to be made. There's no obvious fire in his belly or energy and emotion when he speaks about big games. Listening to him is always, frankly, a bit boring because his tone is monotonous and his choice of words is dull.
On this basis, what are the chances of a team talk with him being truly motivational? You could point to the fact that we keep coming back from being behind, but all that says is we're not actually prepared properly from the off. And what is being said in the dressing room at OT before games? Whatever the words are, they aren't effective.
We will never know what happens within the squad between the players and the coaches, but nothing points towards the players holding the coaches and managers in high regard, which has to be worrying and unsustainable.
You guys are flying this season and Gerrard has turned you into a real force there is no doubt about itThat might be good for Utd because they will fair better in the league this season if they are out of Europa.
I think attitude and preparation go hand in hand. Often in games we tend to go easy on our opponents. We don't go in and press as hard as we can from the beginning in games. Our midfield is too weak and what's worse is we keep changing it for every game. There is no real connection between the players anymore. Our one touch passes are often misread and we lose the ball far too easily. We all saw in the backend of last season, players who kept playing together gelled well and we played some good football but since the new season, we haven't played the same team very often and it has resulted in some rubbish football. I understand that we have had to deal with the pandemic and the tight fixture has got Ole to rotate the players as often as he can but we have not worked as a team and we do not have many players who are professional and go out to give it everything every time. Exceptions being Bruno, Mata. We need a few players yet and they need to take responsibility for rubbish gameplay.