Ronaldo vs Ronaldo

[ryadmahrez]

See, I'm a stats guy myself. At least 50% of my job consists of working with statistics, KPIs, etc. But the statistics you guys are comparing are not comparable. You post and compare those numbers as if they were observed under laboratory conditions when in reality there are dozens of extremely influential factors which vary, at times immensely. League, time, era, team, competitions and so forth. We don't know how much Messi and Cristiano would score in R9's shoes and vice versa. Fact of the matter is that all three of them were the undisputed best goal scorers during their time. And both Messi and Cristiano recently had episodes in which their statistics looked suddenly didn't look immense anymore, usually when it things weren't really working out for their team. People already made out their decline multiple times but those who actually followe them closely knew this was bullshit since they were playing like they always did, only in lesser teams. And R9 never got to play in such well drilled machineries enjoyed by Messi and CR7 in Barcelona and Madrid.

And now consider, goals are only one aspect of attacking impact. You can't even compare that isolated statistic but an attacker's general quality is inredible hard to quantify and even the more complicated statistics (xG, goal impact, packing rate etc.) still only cover very specific areas of play. Present me a suitable way to quantify a football performance holistically and I'm all for statistics. but the way you're doing it, not even trying to put these numbers in context to stuff like goal inflation, you could as well just throw random numbers around.

So what's left is the eye test/a qualitative analysis. And that tells me that young R9 was an absolute freak who did stuff I saw from no other player - not even Messi. You get that feeling immediately when you watch him, may it be skill videos, complete games, match summaries or whatever. And this impression is backed by many of his fellow players, managers etc. When somebody like Mourinho, Zidane or R9's former physiotherapist speak of him, they express exactly what you're feeling watching footage of him in the 90s. This explosiveness, agility, strength and top speed - he's probably a legit GOAT contender in all of these aspects - paired with this unbelievable control, skills on the ball and finishing - he's also a GOAT contender in those categories - is unique. And he wasn't a Ben Arfa type of footballer who had great assets but never learned to utilize them. R9 was also a very intelligent player and more professional than man give him credit for. Read the article posted earlier, when the medical stuff explains that he at times had 10 hour routines of rehabilitation workouts during his recovery.

Personally I can't decide who's better among Messi, R9, Maradona and Pele. I feel R9 is the most talented but never fulfilled his potential to the same extent as the others did - but that doesn't mean he's not as good since his assets were ridiculously good. Maybe too good for a career without very serious injuries.

You can compare R9 to his counterparts during his time though. In his best year at Inter, which was his absolute peak, he scored 19 goals from open play in 32 games. For comparison Bierhoff scored 25 goals from open play in 32 games that year. So at his absolute peak at top level, which consisted of 2 years, one year wasn’t really impressive and he showed the same level of statistics as in later stages of his career. The incredible Barca year was more the outlier.

R9 was great, but when I see people talk about him as the most talented ever, i very much disagree, he doenst come close. He was an intelligent player, but no genius type of player. Perhaps the most talented physically, after that others were far more talented.

 

[Raees]

You can compare R9 to his counterparts during his time though. In his best year at Inter, which was his absolute peak, he scored 19 goals from open play in 32 games. For comparison Bierhoff scored 25 goals from open play in 32 games that year. So at his absolute peak at top level, which consisted of 2 years, one year wasn’t really impressive and he showed the same level of statistics as in later stages of his career. The incredible Barca year was more the outlier.

R9 was great, but when I see people talk about him as the most talented ever, i very much disagree, he doenst come close. He was an intelligent player, but no genius type of player. Perhaps the most talented physically, after that others were far more talented.

R9 was not talented. Can someone ban this fool...

 

[Spoony]

Christ.

 

[FrenchToastMafia]

Ronaldo perhaps had more natural talent, but Cristiano has become a better player due to his longevity.

 

[LoneStar]

Let's put it this way, if I had to choose one of them in their peak to play for a season, it's R9.

If I had to choose them for a period of 10 years to play for my club, it's CR7 and not close.

 

[Synco]

Football has evolved over the eras, the GOATS are defined by the eras they played in.

(...)

Thats why the GOAT talk is just abit of fun. For me there is no overall GOAT. Theres an elite pantheon of players who dominated their respective eras.

The most reasonable way to look at it, imo.

You need a bit of context mate.

Football in the 90's was never the same as it was when Messi and Cristiano were playing at their peak. There were no super teams and you couldn't see a team defending a CL, let alone winning 3/4 in a row. Real and Barca's bench could easily make it to the latter rounds of CL and be title contenders in their domestic leagues. The amount of the ball both Messi and Cristiano had at their disposal was much, much higher than what Fenomeno can muster, let alone the talent next to him.

I mean with Barca at their heyday you had Messi, Villa, Ibra, Henry, Xavi, Iniesta, Suarez, Neymar - you can't simply put 3 people on Messi and negate the whole side. You could with Ronaldo when he was playing at Inter. Take him out of the game and Inter will fire blanks.

It's not only "art of dribbling". The guy was true phenomenon. I don't think we even saw his true peak, due to the injuries, and yes injuries should be taken into consideration, but it was not "what if". To me if it wasn't for the injuries the GOAT status would have been cemented ages ago.

The "what if", doesn't even make his stature more romantic if you ask me - he was that good at tender age. Even "if" we didn't see his peak, what we saw at young age was already arguably better than what we have seen of even many of the GOAT contenders.

Lately I've been watching some old footage when he was at PSV:


a definition of one man attack. It's like you are at the playground and your attacking plan is based of giving the ball to the best player who should come up with something and win it for you.

If the opposition above doesn't impress then there is this:

17 years old against a stacked defence of Blind, Reiziger, De Boer, Rijkaard, Davids and on top of that VdS on goal. A team that won the CL that year and beat the mighty Milan that were the heavy favorites.

And I see someone mentioned the 98 WC final when the Brazil were favorites. They were favorites because of Ronaldo. That French side was stacked. It had one of the best defence ever for a national team and were scared shitless because of Fenomeno. They had separated sessions dedicated only for how to counter Fenomeno. They didn't really care about Bebeto or Rivaldo at the time.


There really isn't any question marks when it comes to assessing his game before the injuries came kicking in.

16 years old at Cruzeiro( much better league than it is now) - he ripped it apart - averaged goal a game.
17-18 - years old in a much better Dutch league than it is now - he did the same - averaged goal a game.
19-20 years old in Barca - ripped it apart - averaged goal a game.
21-23 years old in the best league in the world - 59 goals in 99 games against some of the best defences the game has seen and in an Inter side that just to put it in perspective in 98/99 he was out injured in the middle of the season - from late January to end of March. Fenomeno missed 8 games during that period - Inter failed to score in 5 of them.

He got back in April till the end of the season - 8 games - 8 goals for Fenomeno and Inter failed to score only in 1.

He was 2 times world player of the year, 1 Ballon D'or (lost another one by 1 vote), on course to become WC with Brazil, changed 4 completely different leagues that he run riot in every single one of them, and all that by the age of 22. By that age Cristiano was becoming one of the best players in the league but wasn't there yet. People really discount how young Fenomeno was when he was reaching those heights. He was teenager and was responsible to run attacks on his own against some of the hardest defensive lines in muddy pitches, kicked out of the game week after week. He didn't get the same protection or the same quality pitches Messi/Cristiano enjoy today, despite being only 9 years younger than Cristiano.

Apple and oranges and all that but at no point Fenomeno played in a super team week after week and he was still putting goal a game numbers on his own.

Put peak Ronaldo in Pep's Barca or Ronaldo's Real and can see him easily scoring 50-60 per year if he's fit, easily.

Great post, Enigma. The clip from the French training sessions says a lot.

 

[snk123]

Buffon was asked who was the greatest player he ever faced and Brazilian Ronaldo was his answer. Hes played against alot of top top players.

Sir Alex Ferguson once said Jones was going to be our best ever player. He's coached alot of top top players.

 

[balaks]

Sir Alex Ferguson once said Jones was going to be our best ever player. He's coached alot of top top players.

Classic straw man there.

 

[Zehner]

You can compare R9 to his counterparts during his time though. In his best year at Inter, which was his absolute peak, he scored 19 goals from open play in 32 games. For comparison Bierhoff scored 25 goals from open play in 32 games that year. So at his absolute peak at top level, which consisted of 2 years, one year wasn’t really impressive and he showed the same level of statistics as in later stages of his career. The incredible Barca year was more the outlier.

R9 was great, but when I see people talk about him as the most talented ever, i very much disagree, he doenst come close. He was an intelligent player, but no genius type of player. Perhaps the most talented physically, after that others were far more talented.

Well, we've seen Suarez outscoring Messi while playing in the same team and in recent years, Lewandowski outscored both players.

Don't get me wrong, Cristiano and Messi are immense players. In fact I'm a big Messi fan and try to watch the majority of his matches. But their freakish stats are a result of building a whole team of world class players around one individual with insane amounts of talent. R9 never got to player under these circumstances. He played in less refined teams that relied more on individual brillance. And both Messi's and R9's scoring stats didn't look out of this world when they played in similar conditions. They had their Bierhoffs, too.

 

[Bebestation]

Well, we've seen Suarez outscoring Messi while playing in the same team and in recent years, Lewandowski outscored both players.

Don't get me wrong, Cristiano and Messi are immense players. In fact I'm a big Messi fan and try to watch the majority of his matches. But their freakish stats are a result of building a whole team of world class players around one individual with insane amounts of talent. R9 never got to player under these circumstances. He played in less refined teams that relied more on individual brillance. And both Messi's and R9's scoring stats didn't look out of this world when they played in similar conditions. They had their Bierhoffs, too.

That can be said about the defense.

No pressure, no pressing, only individual abilities of a defender going against a striker.

Usually a creative playing either centrally or out wide trying to play a ball and beat the defenders and for the striker to outwit the defenders.

This is why Fat Ronaldo is loved so much because people think he outwitted the hardest era of the defenders - he outwitted the era of the defenders when they were working individually much more against the striker.

That's nothing special to alot of us.

 

[mancan92]

You need a bit of context mate.

Football in the 90's was never the same as it was when Messi and Cristiano were playing at their peak. There were no super teams and you couldn't see a team defending a CL, let alone winning 3/4 in a row. Real and Barca's bench could easily make it to the latter rounds of CL and be title contenders in their domestic leagues. The amount of the ball both Messi and Cristiano had at their disposal was much, much higher than what Fenomeno can muster, let alone the talent next to him.

I mean with Barca at their heyday you had Messi, Villa, Ibra, Henry, Xavi, Iniesta, Suarez, Neymar - you can't simply put 3 people on Messi and negate the whole side. You could with Ronaldo when he was playing at Inter. Take him out of the game and Inter will fire blanks.

It's not only "art of dribbling". The guy was true phenomenon. I don't think we even saw his true peak, due to the injuries, and yes injuries should be taken into consideration, but it was not "what if". To me if it wasn't for the injuries the GOAT status would have been cemented ages ago.

The "what if", doesn't even make his stature more romantic if you ask me - he was that good at tender age. Even "if" we didn't see his peak, what we saw at young age was already arguably better than what we have seen of even many of the GOAT contenders.

Lately I've been watching some old footage when he was at PSV:


a definition of one man attack. It's like you are at the playground and your attacking plan is based of giving the ball to the best player who should come up with something and win it for you.

If the opposition above doesn't impress then there is this:

17 years old against a stacked defence of Blind, Reiziger, De Boer, Rijkaard, Davids and on top of that VdS on goal. A team that won the CL that year and beat the mighty Milan that were the heavy favorites.

And I see someone mentioned the 98 WC final when the Brazil were favorites. They were favorites because of Ronaldo. That French side was stacked. It had one of the best defence ever for a national team and were scared shitless because of Fenomeno. They had separated sessions dedicated only for how to counter Fenomeno. They didn't really care about Bebeto or Rivaldo at the time.


There really isn't any question marks when it comes to assessing his game before the injuries came kicking in.

16 years old at Cruzeiro( much better league than it is now) - he ripped it apart - averaged goal a game.
17-18 - years old in a much better Dutch league than it is now - he did the same - averaged goal a game.
19-20 years old in Barca - ripped it apart - averaged goal a game.
21-23 years old in the best league in the world - 59 goals in 99 games against some of the best defences the game has seen and in an Inter side that just to put it in perspective in 98/99 he was out injured in the middle of the season - from late January to end of March. Fenomeno missed 8 games during that period - Inter failed to score in 5 of them.

He got back in April till the end of the season - 8 games - 8 goals for Fenomeno and Inter failed to score only in 1.

He was 2 times world player of the year, 1 Ballon D'or (lost another one by 1 vote), on course to become WC with Brazil, changed 4 completely different leagues that he run riot in every single one of them, and all that by the age of 22. By that age Cristiano was becoming one of the best players in the league but wasn't there yet. People really discount how young Fenomeno was when he was reaching those heights. He was teenager and was responsible to run attacks on his own against some of the hardest defensive lines in muddy pitches, kicked out of the game week after week. He didn't get the same protection or the same quality pitches Messi/Cristiano enjoy today, despite being only 9 years younger than Cristiano.

Apple and oranges and all that but at no point Fenomeno played in a super team week after week and he was still putting goal a game numbers on his own.

Put peak Ronaldo in Pep's Barca or Ronaldo's Real and can see him easily scoring 50-60 per year if he's fit, easily.

If he's fit is the point longevity and consistency matters alot. Being the best for 13 is better than being the best for 3 years.

 

[mancan92]

I watched both through their whole careers and regarding pure quality there is no contest there. Ronaldo was pure quality and pure talent. Cr7 is a "just" goal maschine.
Cr7 technique and especially dribble is hugely overrated. Not saying that he doesn't have it because he does of course. But not even close to Ronaldo, Maradona, Messi and many many other players.

And about peak; Ronaldo (R9) wins it by distance

You watched cr7 dribbling during 06-13 and thought it was overrated?

 

[tomaldinho1]

I honestly think this is the most illogical debate on the caf. The romanticism involved with R9 is blindingly obvious despite how incredible a player he was.

I think it's very fair to say there is an argument that R9 could (not would) have been close to CR7 and Messi's levels if he had stayed injury free and lived as strictly as CR7. But he didn't and the latter should count heavily against him. CR7/Messi weren't even strikers for much of their careers, that's what makes their stats so crazy, but the fact is they are both in contention for GOAT whereas R9 is not.

 

[Zehner]

That can be said about the defense.

No pressure, no pressing, only individual abilities of a defender going against a striker.

Usually a creative playing either centrally or out wide trying to play a ball and beat the defenders and for the striker to outwit the defenders.

This is why Fat Ronaldo is loved so much because people think he outwitted the hardest era of the defenders - he outwitted the era of the defenders when they were working individually much more against the striker.

That's nothing special to alot of us.

You side with CR7 here? Now that's the biggest surprise since the turn of the year.

Thing is, there are a lot of developments. Pressing systems, positional play, fitness, emergence of super squads etc. which lead to a lot of changes since R9's prime. Some of them support defenders, some attackers. However, it obviously lead to a goal inflation all things considered. There are more goals being scored currently then there used to be, and the top teams profit more from it, which means it's easier to score. This is a fact, there's no point arguing it.

 

[Can7onA]

Let's put it this way, if I had to choose one of them in their peak to play for a season, it's R9.

If I had to choose them for a period of 10 years to play for my club, it's CR7 and not close.

This basically, move on.

 

[Mainoldo]

Kind of bothers me when CR7 never gets is praise for natural ability. You would think he had the skill set of a Frank Lampard. He’s as talented as they come ‘naturally’

 

[Enigma_87]

Sure Fenomeno was great during his peak, but most people would only count his time during 96-98 in top league as truly his peak years. Before that he was playing in Brazil and Dutch league, where a lot of average players has done well and scored as many there. It’s like Haaland playing well in Austrian league and in Dortmund, it’s great record and very promising but people won’t regard this as his peak which is comparable to peak of other GOAT.

The Dutch league at the time (90's/80's) shouldn't be underestimated. Some of the greatest players of that era played their trade in the Dutch league. Romario who is considered one of the greatest strikers the game has seen played even less outside the Dutch league and the top goalscorers in the 80's/90's are all big names like Romario, Van Basten, Fenomeno etc. Sure there are exceptions here and there, but generally the league was very good. PSV won the EC in the late 80's, Ajax were factor in CL in the 90's.. Besides, how long was Maradona's peak for example and his numbers are not as good as Platini, yet it's obvious who was the better player and higher peak. Things aren't black and white and easy to compare as again the game was different back then and to underline - there was much more competition at highest level. You simply couldn't compile the best players in the world in 2 teams.

He didn’t play for super team during his peak (late 90’s), but he did played for a super team during 2000’s (Real Madrid Galacticos era) and for his country (Brazil 02 WC with 3R+Cafu/Carlos)

None of those teams you mentioned were as great as those Messi/Cristiano played in. You can read up to the 2002 WC and the Brazil team was in disarray. It wasn't considered as big favorite as it usually is and generally it wasn't a well oiled and drilled unit that a super team would suggest. It didn't have a clear identity or a game plan that was practiced on weekly basis.

It had obviously some stars and great players, although again it was pre peak Ronaldinho and Rivaldo on the wane who didn't have a good season coming up to the WC. Featured some players like Kleberson, Roque Junior, Edmilson who would never make it in modern day Barca or Real where Cristiano featured. The gap is much bigger now compared to before.

With the galacticos era there were some great names obviously, but at no point you can find an entire 11 where probably all players will make it in the world top 5-10 in their position at the time when Cristiano played alongside Bale, Modric, Kroos, Benzema, Carvajal, Marcelo, Casemiro, etc etc.

And on a side point Fenomeno wasn't at his peak at the time, which is of course, known, but there is extreme physiological pressure to come back on top after 2 career threatening injuries, which fortunately Messi/Cristiano didn't have to go through.

Portugal was never a super team yet Cristiano still scored 102+ goals (all time best in Europe) and won Euros for them.

I am not saying L.Ronaldo wasn’t as great as you stated, I was born watching football in that era too, during his early years in Brazil and PSV, he was similar to Mbappe in Monaco and Haaland in Salzburg/Dortmund, top top teenage player. And during 96-98 his dominance in football world is equivalent to Messi and Ronaldo during their peak decade, and probably best young player world have ever seen.

But for the rest of his career, I wouldn’t put him as one of the very best forward in the game. Players like Zidane, Rivaldo, Ronaldinho, Henry etc was better than him during those years, forwards like Ruud , Shevchenko etc were more prolific than him.

In other words, he has 2 years playing at GOAT level similar to dominance of Messi and Ronaldo (note I didn’t compare their numbers as Messi/Ronaldo has been far better but then they were playing in different teams under different context). He has around 4 years playing at level similar to Mbappe at Monaco or Haaland at Selzburg/Dortmund, then the rest he was either injured or playing at level behind the likes of Ronaldinho/Rivaldo/Henry/Ruud/Shevchenko etc.

Not to put Cristiano down but that number (102+) goals can be taken with a pinch of salt. Zero goals against the likes of Germany, Italy, Brazil, England, France, yet 5-6-7 against Andorra, Armenia, Latvia and Luxemburg:

I simply don't buy that Cristiano had a great international career and his EURO win isn't spectacular or great as some of the other GOAT candidates.

All in all - I've said it before. In terms of career I'd pick Cristiano all the time, he beats Fenomeno with sheer consistency and maintaining his ability on highest level. I'd always take him to build a team around for a decade to come.

But in terms of peak - I'd take Fenomeno.

 

[Enigma_87]

Great post, Enigma. The clip from the French training sessions says a lot.

Cheers mate.

If he's fit is the point longevity and consistency matters alot. Being the best for 13 is better than being the best for 3 years.

yeah as I said Cristiano will finish with a bigger stature in the game and deservedly so. In terms of GOATs I'd probably place him higher than Fenomeno all things considered. In terms of peak I'll take Fenomeno above probably pretty much everybody apart from Pele.

 

[Dirty Schwein]

I hate when people call him fat Ronaldo... I prefer Original Ronaldo.

 

[Idxomer]

I hate when people call him fat Ronaldo... I prefer Original Ronaldo.

Yep, so disrespectful.

 

[mancan92]

Cheers mate.


yeah as I said Cristiano will finish with a bigger stature in the game and deservedly so. In terms of GOATs I'd probably place him higher than Fenomeno all things considered. In terms of peak I'll take Fenomeno above probably pretty much everybody apart from Pele.

Thats very fair. My point was just basically if we are talking GOAT then CR7 has to be higher logically.

 

[Zehner]

Thats very fair. My point was just basically if we are talking GOAT then CR7 has to be higher logically.

It depends on what you mean with "GOAT". Being the most talented footballer in history and having arguably the highest peak of every player are strong arguments to be considered one of the greatest. My top four are Pele, Maradona, Messi and Ronaldo in no particular order. In the tier below, there are Cruyff, Cristiano, Beckenbauer, Eusebio, Ronaldinho, Zidane, Zico, Puskas, Di Stefano. Platini etc. with Cristiano or Cruyff probably leading the pack. However, you don't need to show it for 10+ years, IMO. It's a testament to the professionalism of the player but 2-3 years of peak are enough for me determine that this wasn't just a run of form or a flash in the pan. After those two/three years, it's just confirmation to something which was already proven - unless they hit an even higher level.

 

[GueRed]

I hate when people call him fat Ronaldo... I prefer Original Ronaldo.

same.

It's Ronaldo.

The portuguese ronaldo i think will be renowned as Cristiano Ronaldo/ C.Ronaldo/ CR7

 

[Gehrman]

Kind of bothers me when CR7 never gets is praise for natural ability. You would think he had the skill set of a Frank Lampard. He’s as talented as they come ‘naturally’

I'm not the greatest fan of CR7 in the whole GOAT debate, but I've never understood this either. His dribbling and passing isn't quite overall up there with the best of all time, but his overall natural talent is pretty incredible to be fair. You don't get to achieve what he's done with hardwork alone and he was quite a flair thorughout much of his career. I'd still say his best season as a flair player was in the season 2006-2007 before he became a more of a goalmachine, but even has a goalmachine his overall skillset was pretty complete.

 

[Lay]

Yep, so disrespectful.

A lot of nonsense in this thread is disrespect towards R9. He’s gone from a world class legend to a no talent player who only scored tap ins for Brazil and would have been easily replaced.

 

[Cloud7]

For me it's R9 all day everyday. CR7 is one of the best of all time, no doubt. His insane productivity over the period he has produced is something that I'll probably never see again in my lifetime, and I'm glad to have gotten to witness it. That being said, when I watched R9 play, he was something else. He was a force of nature if ever there was one.

 

[Andycoleno9]

You watched cr7 dribbling during 06-13 and thought it was overrated?

Absolutely overrated. His dribble is/was based on getting 0.5m advantage for taking a shot. And in that he was one of world's best players. Even today he is still good at it.
Ronaldo on the other hand, with his dribbles left defenders behind him and put that defenders out of play (ankle breaker dribble is a phrase i believe).

Comparing technique and dribbling of those two is like comparing stats of those two. It is too obvious that one is better than the other.

 

[Ecstatic]

I can hear the different views and we can debate a lot on this... but at the end the discussion always becomes quickly narrowed to a limited number of players like Cristiano, Ronaldo, CR7 or even R9.

 

[Andycoleno9]

Major problem about this debate is that lots of people only watched Cristiano. Ronaldo they know only through youtube or through some games in his final part of his career.

I am pretty sure (yes, this is totally subjective opinion) that people who watched both will pick Ronaldo. Search a little what older players say. Nearly every player who played in Ronaldo era will say that he was the best.

 

[Lord SInister]

Major problem about this debate is that lots of people only watched Cristiano. Ronaldo they know only through youtube or through some games in his final part of his career.

I am pretty sure (yes, this is totally subjective opinion) that people who watched both will pick Ronaldo. Search a little what older players say. Nearly every player who played in Ronaldo era will say that he was the best.

Ronaldo may have been a better talent, but you have a player who has been performing at a ridiculous level for over a decade. I think it is time, people give some respect to Cristiano.
He may not be a freak talent like Pele, Maradona, Messi, but he has a consistency and high level of performance that is equivalent to the likes of Puskas and Di Stefano. I would rank him over Ronaldo in all time great lists. Ronaldo is what if, Cristiano is reality.

 

[RedRonaldo]

The Dutch league at the time (90's/80's) shouldn't be underestimated. Some of the greatest players of that era played their trade in the Dutch league. Romario who is considered one of the greatest strikers the game has seen played even less outside the Dutch league and the top goalscorers in the 80's/90's are all big names like Romario, Van Basten, Fenomeno etc. Sure there are exceptions here and there, but generally the league was very good. PSV won the EC in the late 80's, Ajax were factor in CL in the 90's.. Besides, how long was Maradona's peak for example and his numbers are not as good as Platini, yet it's obvious who was the better player and higher peak. Things aren't black and white and easy to compare as again the game was different back then and to underline - there was much more competition at highest level. You simply couldn't compile the best players in the world in 2 teams.


None of those teams you mentioned were as great as those Messi/Cristiano played in. You can read up to the 2002 WC and the Brazil team was in disarray. It wasn't considered as big favorite as it usually is and generally it wasn't a well oiled and drilled unit that a super team would suggest. It didn't have a clear identity or a game plan that was practiced on weekly basis.

It had obviously some stars and great players, although again it was pre peak Ronaldinho and Rivaldo on the wane who didn't have a good season coming up to the WC. Featured some players like Kleberson, Roque Junior, Edmilson who would never make it in modern day Barca or Real where Cristiano featured. The gap is much bigger now compared to before.

With the galacticos era there were some great names obviously, but at no point you can find an entire 11 where probably all players will make it in the world top 5-10 in their position at the time when Cristiano played alongside Bale, Modric, Kroos, Benzema, Carvajal, Marcelo, Casemiro, etc etc.

And on a side point Fenomeno wasn't at his peak at the time, which is of course, known, but there is extreme physiological pressure to come back on top after 2 career threatening injuries, which fortunately Messi/Cristiano didn't have to go through.



Not to put Cristiano down but that number (102+) goals can be taken with a pinch of salt. Zero goals against the likes of Germany, Italy, Brazil, England, France, yet 5-6-7 against Andorra, Armenia, Latvia and Luxemburg:

I simply don't buy that Cristiano had a great international career and his EURO win isn't spectacular or great as some of the other GOAT candidates.

All in all - I've said it before. In terms of career I'd pick Cristiano all the time, he beats Fenomeno with sheer consistency and maintaining his ability on highest level. I'd always take him to build a team around for a decade to come.

But in terms of peak - I'd take Fenomeno.

Well you are using all these the old arguments which has been argued over and over again, to save some time let me get this this straight with you:

1. Is Dutch league really a top league back in L.Ronaldo’s era (mid-90s to mid-2000s)? The answer is, no. Best league In mid-late 90s are Serie A, Premierleague, La Liga, just as usual. And Let’s look at how many goals L.Ronaldo scored back then:

94-95: 30 goals in 33 games
95-96: 12 goals in 13 games

And let’s look at how it compares with other top strikers in Dutch league:

Machlas - 34 goals (97-98)
Ruud - 31 goals (98-99)
Ruud - 29 goals (99-00)
Kezman - 35 goals (02-03)
Kezman - 31 goals (03-04)
Kuyt - 29 goals (04-05)
Huntelaar - 33 goals (05-06)
Alves - 34 goals (06-07)

All these players are playing during L.Ronaldo’s active playing period in Europe (94-08), they all had scored similar no.of goals as L.Ronaldo did in Dutch league. But with exception of Ruud, almost everyone of them flopped badly after they moved to better league. This tells you how poor the Dutch league was when comparing with top level.

What does it tells you then?

Don’t get too overly excited when we look at players high scoring stats in Dutch league, there are very high chances that they couldn’t do it elsewhere.

2. Cristiano had scored many of his international goals against inferior teams, hence should not be held in same regards of other past greats.
- now this is just plain stupid. Majority of goals he scored are competitive games in Europe (Euros qualifier, WC qualifier etc), where every other European players played against similar opponents throughout their career, but why only Ronaldo beings pick on for this? Because only he managed to score so many goals. Also, how many goals L.Ronaldo had scored against top/decent opponents? Not as many as Cristiano for sure. He has his fair share of games against weak opponents too over the years (ie Iceland, Lithuania, Bosnia, Bolivia, Latvia, Malaysia, China, New Zealand), you can’t really blame Cristiano for scoring many more goals than him against weaker teams, when L.Ronaldo couldn’t do repeat the same as often, while his best scoring feat was against Lithuania (hattricks) and Australia (hattricks) in meaningless friendly, not exactly something special to show off when compared with Cristiano.

3. Real Madrid in Galacticos and Brazil in 02 WC weren’t super team?
This is again, just plains stupid. How many teams you can name who had 3-4 Ballon D’or winners in their team at the same time, and 6-7 Ballon D’or contenders too?

Let’s look at Real Madrid Galacticos era:

Zidane - Ballon D’or winner
L.Ronaldo - Ballon D’or winner
Figo - Ballon D’or winner
Carlos - Ballin D’or runners up
Owen - Ballon D’or winner
Beckham - Ballon D’or runners up
Raul - Ballon D’or runners up

Also featuring Casillas, Hierrio, Ramos, Robinho etc

So just tell me, how many team in history of football assemble so many Ballon D’or winners and runners up at the same time? Absolutely none! Just that they underachieved and failed to live up expectations in hindsight, doesn’t mean they weren’t super team at that time. In fact, players by players, they are super team among all other super teams together!

Now let’s look at Brazil 02 WC squad:

L.Ronaldo - Ballon D’or winner
Rivaldo - Ballon D’or winner
Ronaldinho - Ballon D’or winner
Carlos - Ballon D’or runners up
Cafu - all time great right back
Kaka - Ballon D’or winner in future, only played 25 mins though

Now tell me this isn’t a super team. It’s just plain stupid to think it isn’t.

 

[ryadmahrez]

R9 was not talented. Can someone ban this fool...

Ai thanks, nice guy you are. To be honest to me other top players were indeed far more talented. Players whose football iq were the best of the best and don’t get me wrong R9 football iq was certainly good, but not the best. R9 wasnt someone who always made the right turns, the right pass or was overly creative. I put a lot of weight in that. He mostly was a powerful explosive dribbler and a lethal finisher. He didnt have the type of genius like an Iniesta or Messi.

 

[Raees]

Ai thanks, nice guy you are. To be honest to me other top players were indeed far more talented. Players whose football iq were the best of the best and don’t get me wrong R9 football iq was certainly good, but not the best. R9 wasnt someone who always made the right turns, the right pass or was overly creative. I put a lot of weight in that. He mostly was a powerful explosive dribbler and a lethal finisher. He didnt have the type of genius like an Iniesta or Messi.

If you think Iniesta is more talented than R9 you do not deserve to have an opinion on the matter. Football is more than just being able to have a silky first touch and a nice pass. Iniesta's IQ in terms of possession play was better - but R9's role in a side is much more difficult, he has the whole world and team expecting him to unlock opposition defenses... he has to outhink entire backlines. That requires its own form of IQ.

R9's passing was indeed mediocre if we are talking GOAT level comparisons, I would say it was on par with CR7 if not marginally better. However his footwork, mixture between flair and orthodox dribbling done at freakish pace and decision making as to when to do it... - his stepover's are arguably the finest of all time from a technical perspective -- and not to mention the range of his finishing, again technically we are talking a tremendous finisher - did not take as much wild shots and punts like CR7.

Also we are talking a man who had to use his first touch with back to goal with aggressive defenders up his arse like a proper CF vs likes of Iniesta who control it in space more often than not and would not be as effective if asked to being the ball down in a CF position.

R9 is one of the most talented footballers of all time - absolutely no doubt in my mind about that, he is superior to Cristiano if we are talking talent and way ahead of Iniesta. I wouldn't have him ahead of Pele in terms of talent, but he's right up there.

 

[Mainoldo]

I'm not the greatest fan of CR7 in the whole GOAT debate, but I've never understood this either. His dribbling and passing isn't quite overall up there with the best of all time, but his overall natural talent is pretty incredible to be fair. You don't get to achieve what he's done with hardwork alone and he was quite a flair thorughout much of his career. I'd still say his best season as a flair player was in the season 2006-2007 before he became a more of a goalmachine, but even has a goalmachine his overall skillset was pretty complete.

Exactly. I’d go one further and say the season before that. I remember him tearing Liverpool apart and twisting notes into the Fulham fullbacks (Might all be the same season your talking about). His flair was unreal. Joy to watch even before he became the machine.

 

[Enigma_87]

@RedRonaldo I think you completely ignored the points I've made. Also comparing the Dutch league in the mid 00's is plain nonsense. As I said it only holds weight during the early to mid 90's when Ronaldo actually played there.

In terms of comparing teams - again you are just using names with zero context. Naming Kaka, who played 25 mins is plain dumb.

Think you are getting overly defensive, so we better stop there.

 

[Lord SInister]

If you think Iniesta is more talented than R9 you do not deserve to have an opinion on the matter. Football is more than just being able to have a silky first touch and a nice pass. Iniesta's IQ in terms of possession play was better - but R9's role in a side is much more difficult, he has the whole world and team expecting him to unlock opposition defenses... he has to outhink entire backlines. That requires its own form of IQ.

R9's passing was indeed mediocre if we are talking GOAT level comparisons, I would say it was on par with CR7 if not marginally better. However his footwork, mixture between flair and orthodox dribbling done at freakish pace and decision making as to when to do it... - his stepover's are arguably the finest of all time from a technical perspective -- and not to mention the range of his finishing, again technically we are talking a tremendous finisher - did not take as much wild shots and punts like CR7.

Also we are talking a man who had to use his first touch with back to goal with aggressive defenders up his arse like a proper CF vs likes of Iniesta who control it in space more often than not and would not be as effective if asked to being the ball down in a CF position.

R9 is one of the most talented footballers of all time - absolutely no doubt in my mind about that, he is superior to Cristiano if we are talking talent and way ahead of Iniesta. I wouldn't have him ahead of Pele in terms of talent, but he's right up there.

While Luis Ronaldo was obviously more talented than Iniesta, but Iniesta is much more than silky touch and good passing skills. His best attribute was neither.
I think RyadMahrez, isn't being articulate, he probably isn't able to find correct example. and probably means that Luis Ronaldo wasn't an all round top drawer mix, you know the likes of Messi, Maradona, Pele, Cruyff and Zico, of being world class goal scorers, dribblers, passers, playmakers/creator and even freekick experts (except Cruyff) all in one.

 

[RooneyLegend]

While Luis Ronaldo was obviously more talented than Iniesta, but Iniesta is much more than silky touch and good passing skills. His best attribute was neither.
I think RyadMahrez, isn't being articulate, he probably isn't able to find correct example. and probably means that Luis Ronaldo wasn't an all round top drawer mix, you know the likes of Messi, Maradona, Pele, Cruyff and Zico, of being world class goal scorers, dribblers, passers, playmakers/creator and even freekick experts (except Cruyff) all in one.

Then this RiyadMahrez has no idea what he's talking about. Ronaldo was all those things. That'd what made him a freak talent, there's nothing he didn't do at an elite level.

 

[ryadmahrez]

Well, we've seen Suarez outscoring Messi while playing in the same team and in recent years, Lewandowski outscored both players.

Don't get me wrong, Cristiano and Messi are immense players. In fact I'm a big Messi fan and try to watch the majority of his matches. But their freakish stats are a result of building a whole team of world class players around one individual with insane amounts of talent. R9 never got to player under these circumstances. He played in less refined teams that relied more on individual brillance. And both Messi's and R9's scoring stats didn't look out of this world when they played in similar conditions. They had their Bierhoffs, too.

The point is Messi or CR7 were never outscored in what people would say was their best years, other than each other offcourse. R9 was outscored by Bierhoff in the second best season of his career. Quality player Bierhoff, but not even near of the quality of a player like Suarez. And 19 open play league goals from the most “talented player” in his second best year of his career isnt impressive. Especially considering R9 was a pure goalscorer. And I agree R9 perhaps played in less refined teams. But even then, a guy like Messi at his best scored far more goals from individual brilliance than R9 did at his best.

 

[Enigma_87]

The point is Messi or CR7 were never outscored in what people would say was their best years, other than each other offcourse. R9 was outscored by Bierhoff in the second best season of his career. Quality player Bierhoff, but not even near of the quality of a player like Suarez. And 19 open play league goals from the most “talented player” in his second best year of his career isnt impressive. Especially considering R9 was a pure goalscorer. And I agree R9 perhaps played in less refined teams. But even then, a guy like Messi at his best scored far more goals from individual brilliance than R9 did at his best.

you can add that to the list of all the complete bullshit you spouted so far.

 

[Lord SInister]

Then this RiyadMahrez has no idea what he's talking about. Ronaldo was all those things. That'd what made him a freak talent, there's nothing he didn't do at an elite level.

Luis Ronaldo wasn't exactly a creator or world class passer like Messi/Pele/Maradona/Zico/Cruyff, who drop deep and orchestre attacks, even Romario was better than Ronaldo in that area. Plus he never developed into a great free kick expert. He could have been, but as I said earlier, with him it is always what if.
Although i get your point, Ryadmahrez probably thinks, Ronaldo was a dribbling Rudd van Nistelrooy. Even though Ronaldo was much more fuild and had excellent link up.