CL is a difficult competition to win, SAF can confirm that. As much as we dominated in England, we massively underperformed in Europe. I think part of the reason why Pep doesn't do very well in CL is that he simply refuses to give up on his principles, he doesn't simply park the bus where he maybe should. He of course spent a lot of money but so did we and the difference is quality is massive. It's not so easy to build such a dominating team like he did, winning 100 and 98 points in 2 consecutive seasons. I am not saying he is the best manager ever but to me he is quite clearly the best manager of the last 10 years or so, it's really annoying that our manager is on the other side of the city.
'Pep' Guardiola sack watch
- Thread starter Classical Mechanic
- Start date
If Pep became available tomorrow, most of us would want him in a heartbeat.
But because he’s managing our rivals, we want to hate him,
But because he’s managing our rivals, we want to hate him,
Plenty of people questioned last season if he could rebuild his team without outrageous transfer spend and he looks to have answered that pretty handily. Bring in one cb and they look kind of scary again.
They could crash and burn in a week and make everyone look silly again but they look really, really hard to beat so I'm not expecting that. I'm not expecting them to break 100 points over this season either because they dont look as capable of steamrolling weaker teams but they look better equipped for champions league matches imo.
They could crash and burn in a week and make everyone look silly again but they look really, really hard to beat so I'm not expecting that. I'm not expecting them to break 100 points over this season either because they dont look as capable of steamrolling weaker teams but they look better equipped for champions league matches imo.
Agreed re CL being difficult although SAF's issue was that European football was so far ahead of the PL positionally at that time, something managers like Wenger, Mou, in particular with the introduction of 433, and Pep have slowly changed. Look what happened when Quieroz took over and starting coaching us to defend zonally and how to play against these super power Italian and Spanish teams, we got to 3 CL finals in 4 years. If it weren't for Pep's Barca that group of players would probably be seen as the greatest domestic team ever. Now though those Italian and Spanish teams don't really exist, City are amongst the favourites every year and I disagree re the principles part of your post, his issue is he deviates from his principles in knock out games. I'm certain I recall he tweaked things for the loss against Lyon and Monaco for example and then Spurs was a crazy game and Liverpool comfortably beat them.
I think if you look at last ten years Klopp is ahead for me. Dortmund usurping Bayern and taking Liverpool above City's vast squad is more impressive for me when you also factor in the trophies. Zidane has also won three CLs in a row and a La Liga in that time and the usual 'anyone could have won that with those players' jibe is rendered obsolete when Pep comes into the conversation. As said, top coach great vision of how football should be played but at City his trophy haul is 'good' not incredible and his transfer record is iffy.
Just to be clear, the season after (so the same calendar year) the Invincibles won the league they turned into OAPs & the United team of 04/05 was the 'Djemba Djemba and Kleberson years' whose combined appearances across all comps was 8. It was the start of the next rebuild and when Ruud was phased out but we were still a strong team, as were Arsenal. No complaints from me on the brand, that's where I do think he's world class but my point is his trophy haul at City is not (so far).
They’ll win it this year I think as they’ve finally got a solid defence and can play a different style. The only thing stopping them is injuries or Pep trying to be too cute and making weird tactical decisions like Lyon last year.
Utterly ridiculous metric, not a single manager in football history would be considered great if that's what they had to do to achieve it.
Also given how many people seem obsessed with manager's not being "great" until they win with an underdog why aren't those people begging their clubs board to employ Ranieri?
Well throughout his 12 years managerial career, he has won 29 trophies overall, including 2 CL and 8 league titles, and he won it all in style. Whatever you think how poor/overrated he was, and how much he has spent over the years, there’s simply no one better than him who is currently out there. If I am the chairman of a rich club, he’d be my first choice every day and night.
I do think there are managers who can go head to head with him ala Klopp etc. but with the funding he receives and the way he improves his players, I don't think anyone can sustain it. It's not just about the fact that he spends money, he spends it quite well and then far improves those players due to his system
He doesn't really spend money well as evidenced by the hefty layout on defence, but once he does find a right player after several failures, he makes them excel like few others can. Agree with the rest.
And still needed crazy moments like two injury-time goals or Terry's slip.
Yaya's agent is a scumbag, and that logic is ridiculous anyway.
That’s fine. At least we didn’t need the worst / most corrupt referee performance ever a la semi final 2009 between Chelsea and Barca to even get us to a final.
Pep also needed a red card in the 2011 semi to win against RM.
They beat us convincingly in the finals, but needed a lot of “luck/help” to reach those finals.
Whereas we didn’t have any controversies in our CL wins.
Poor logic used by the agent. There’s a lot of clubs who have spent more than others to win stuff but failed. I have no issue with Pep spending money to improve the team. If he had the war chest we’ve had since SAF retired, we would have won the league a few times.
Pep seems to identify weak links pretty quickly. The main issue I have with Pep’s tactics is he overcomplicates his style in Europe and they get done on the counter continuously
good song
13th year at the club, no matter how you dissect it. It doesn't make it more or less an accomplishment. Him winning the Cup Winner's Cup in his sixth year in charge was a great achievement that helped vault the club forward. But yeah, let's just argue over semantics so you can feel good about upping someone. Sigh.
Why does everyone mentioned the UCL. Considering Zidane despite a very short managerial career is currently the only individual in history to have won it in consecutive seasons show's the difficulty in dominating the competition.
The UCL also doesn't define that a manager is entirely successful because of winning it a good example is Di Matteo. Mourinho has won it twice does it automatically make him a better manager than Pep I don't think so. Pep is already in a league of his own especially considering that his consistency to cultivate a team and be competitive hasn't diminished over time.
He was immediately out of the blocks at Barcelona and has repeated this trend at every club he's managed. Him and Klopp have raised the level of the league. I still think Klopp is the best manager however given what he's achieved and the fact that Liverpool owners haven't really backed him to the same extent as a city or even us.
The UCL also doesn't define that a manager is entirely successful because of winning it a good example is Di Matteo. Mourinho has won it twice does it automatically make him a better manager than Pep I don't think so. Pep is already in a league of his own especially considering that his consistency to cultivate a team and be competitive hasn't diminished over time.
He was immediately out of the blocks at Barcelona and has repeated this trend at every club he's managed. Him and Klopp have raised the level of the league. I still think Klopp is the best manager however given what he's achieved and the fact that Liverpool owners haven't really backed him to the same extent as a city or even us.
Idea of Guardiola is far more appealing than probably Guardiola himself. I don't think he spends his money particularly well, in other words, I don't think he is some kind of visionary in xfer market. In fact, his overall transfer strategy seems sketchy.
But it doesn't matter, because his philosophy is so well understood by Guardiola himself. He knows exactly what he wants his teams to do and ensures his team understands his ask. Anybody who doesn't buy in, gets shown the door. Doesn't hurt that he usually has total backing of his board and they would rather boot the players from the team than Guardiola. How many managers enjoy that kind of support thesedays?
If he goes on to manage another 15-20 years (which is doubtful), no doubt in my mind he would be the greatest (at least the most winning) manager ever.
But it doesn't matter, because his philosophy is so well understood by Guardiola himself. He knows exactly what he wants his teams to do and ensures his team understands his ask. Anybody who doesn't buy in, gets shown the door. Doesn't hurt that he usually has total backing of his board and they would rather boot the players from the team than Guardiola. How many managers enjoy that kind of support thesedays?
If he goes on to manage another 15-20 years (which is doubtful), no doubt in my mind he would be the greatest (at least the most winning) manager ever.
It has nothing to do with upping him. Your claim was false. You cannot just do well or gain experience in a competition you can’t even enter. If the requirements back then were top 3-4 enter the competition and he was constantly failing to make the top 3-4 then fair enough. But if only the league winners are allowed then you just can’t ignore this requirement. It would be like saying Hasenhüttl hasn’t achieved anything with Southampton in Europe.
If you wanna name those several defensive signing failures you might have a point.
I will have to look but Bravo, Ake, Angelino, Danilo, Mendy, stones (other than last 10 games, as they say lack of class is permanent, form is temporary), La Porte is rarely fit.
I remember reading a fan from Portugal said Lindelof was.the better player when they were with Benfica.
One has to give you Mendy and Bravo, but the others...
Danilo was upgraded, he himself went for a profit, and did just about OK in two title winning sides. Ake's price is too much but does OK when plays, has done his hammy two months ago, but it's early to conclude anything. Laporte did his ACL and had some 'expected' injuries after such a big one, but normally is available. And Angelino? That's like listing Andreas Pereira in United's shit signings.
Bottom line is he had to spend a lot and go through a lot of individuals to get to a settled back four.
Pep is the best manager in the world along with Klopp, but his recruitment is not of the level of his management. I think Pep's really good signings have essentially been Bernardo Silva, Gundogan, Diaz (for now) and Ederson. Rest of his best players were bought for him by someone else.
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Are people really trying to nitpick with CL titles or money spent? He has them competitive for 5 season now and very likely winners in 3 out of 5.
When he joined the core of his team was Agüero, Silva, Fernandinho, Kompany, Yaya. It's an entirely different team now and they are still on top. Despite all the money spent they haven't actually gotten themselves a superstar who is carrying him, unless you classify Bruno, Dias or Mahrez as such players.
He could easily carry this on for another 10 years and have them top 2 in most seasons and take over Arsenal's Championship trophy haul.
When he joined the core of his team was Agüero, Silva, Fernandinho, Kompany, Yaya. It's an entirely different team now and they are still on top. Despite all the money spent they haven't actually gotten themselves a superstar who is carrying him, unless you classify Bruno, Dias or Mahrez as such players.
He could easily carry this on for another 10 years and have them top 2 in most seasons and take over Arsenal's Championship trophy haul.
Obviously there is no debate about that! Luckily, not even Mendy or Bravo Chygrynskiy-like signings.
If you are including goalkeepers I'll allow you Bravo.
Ake has been at the club 6 months, people need to learn, after 6 months according to this place Bernardo, Fabinho, Mahrez, Cancelo were all flops. Akes been fine when fit. - Not a failure (at least not yet)
Danilo did a good job but asked to leave because he couldn't bench Walker, he was in no way a failure nor was he unwanted, he wanted to go so was used to bring in Cancelo. - Not a failure.
Angelino accomplished exactly what he was brought in for, to fill a home grown spot as a backup because Delph left. Nothing less nothing more. He was never re-signed for the first team. - Not a failure
Mendy (absolute flop) Thats 2 - Massive Failure.
Stones (had a poor first season, had a brilliant 1st half of our 100 points season before being injured (as good as he is now). And was dealing with pesonal problems. - Not a failure but not a roaring success either.
Laporte - No way a failure but hasn't found full fitness after his cruciate and covid. - Not a failure.
By my count you have 2 players in there who are failures given their respective roles. Bravo and Mendy so one defender. In fact having to rank all Pep's defensive signing.
Bravo - Miss
Ederson - Big Hit
Walker - Hit
Stones - 50/50 (2 amazing spells, 2 horrid spells and some personal problems preventing him from playing)
Laporte - Big Hit
Dias - Looking like a massive hit but too soon to say for sure.
Cancelo - Hit
Ake - too soon. Seems very injury prone.
Zinchenko - Big Hit.
Danilo - did what was asked neither hit nor miss.
Angelino - did what was asked neither hit nor miss.
Mendy - Miss
Given Bravo's fee, it was an easy replacement he cost 1/4 of a Kepa. Mendy is the only massive clanger the club have dropped in terms of defensive signings under Pep. If anything most Pep's signings have eventually come right. The two in red and Nolito being the exceptions.
Wrong club mate, but we'll take him if you guys want rid.
I meant Rodrigo of course.
as opposed to teams who finished in 4th or 5th place
Bravo was only £15m and nobody could've predicted his decline, after that he ended up being a solid backup for a few years. Mendy's just been injured non-stop. The others absolutely aren't failed signings.
Aké has just got here, calling him a failure is absurd. I'm sure you wouldn't have accepted me calling Fred or Maguire a failure on the strength of their first few months.
Laporte is a lot more than just "rarely fit", he's had a couple of big injuries but is mostly available.
Danilo came in to be a backup and did that job well before moving on for a profit.
Stones is one of the best defenders in the league right now, and it's far from the first good spell of form he's had. At age 26, failure is an absurd word to use.
Angeliño didn't fail either- he's going to be sold for a big profit, which it seems was always our intention.
Conceded goals for the 2nd time in a row, questions needs to be asked of the manager, surely this can't go on for much longer?
Indeed, a worrying trend. Probably about to be found out. Do I need the white text?
Guardiola's management/coaching quality is so high that his recruitment is average infront of it relatively. Relatively is the key word. For most managers that is an acceptable set of transfers. For one of two best managers (other being Klopp) in the world it is not up to that level. None of the above players get into the talk of best in the business. Compare that to Klopp who for last two years had his LB, RB, CB, GK in contention for best in the business all bought or put in first team by him. Also considering Klopp is handicapped in terms of transfers compared to Pep having a blank cheque book.
This is what Pep inherited (stolen from @troylocker) :
Hart
Kompany
Silva
Yaya
Aguero
KDB
Fernandinho
Sterling
Navas
Kolarov
Nasri
Fernando
Otamendi
Sagna
Zabaleta
Mangala
Demichelis
He inherited most of his key world class players.
I love watching good football as I am sure we all do. United fans have been able to do that for so many years in the past watching a selection of wonderful players.
All these different talking points about Pep as a manager bore me to death. My lasting memory about Pep being at City will simply be that the quality and style of the football he produced was of the highest quality and an absolute joy to watch. He is a brilliant coach and will be a big loss to English football when he leaves for pastures new.
All these different talking points about Pep as a manager bore me to death. My lasting memory about Pep being at City will simply be that the quality and style of the football he produced was of the highest quality and an absolute joy to watch. He is a brilliant coach and will be a big loss to English football when he leaves for pastures new.
C'mon half those were geriatrics and should have been replaced before Pep arrived. Lets be fair and look at the ones who needed to go.
Hart - was way past his peak, despite being pretty young for a keeper. Failed at Torino and was a laughing stock in Italy, then failed at Burnley and everywhere since.
Kompany (30) - was injury prone albeit very good when he played. Pep got the best out of him before he asked to leave.
Silva (30) - was world class and improved under Pep, Pep took him to the next level also turned him into a CM something people would have laughed at.
Yaya (33) - Past it, barely played.
Aguero - His most consistent seasons were under Pep. Pep again got the best of him.
KDB - World Class, no argument.
Fernandinho (31) - People forget he couldn't get in the team half the time under Pelligrini, Pellers believing he wasn't good enough to carry the ball out of defence.
Sterling - The same Sterling people laughed at on the Caf, that was regularly benched for Jesus Navas.
Kolarov - Old and too slow for Pep's system.
Nasri - was practically retired when Pep arrived.
Fernando - decent player
Otamendi - Was seen as a calamity, Under Pep he made the team of the year.
Sagna (33) - Old and past it.
Zabaleta (31) - Old and past it.
Mangala - No way good enough for a top 6 club and never was. 5 appearances this season for Valencia tell you how good he is/was.
Demechelis - Old and past it.
So he inherited Silva, KDB, Kun and Kompany that were deemed class. He also made 3 of the 4 better and kept an injury prone Kompany at the top level. This season he's coasting the league with only 1 of those players and the best players in the premier league are all Pep signings. If one had to pick the best XI in the PL so far this season, Cancelo, Dias, Stones, Rodri, one of Gundogan or KDB are all walking into the team, with Ederson not being far away. Pep has made every player at the club better.
Lets look at where the players Pep moved on in his first year ended up. If they were so good how come this is the level they landed at?
Hart - Torino where he was laughed out to Burnley.
Kolarov - Roma (not bad but needed the slower league.)
Zabaleta - West Ham
Sagna - Benevento
Clichy - Basaksehir
Nasri - Antalyaspor
Fernando - Galatasaray
Mangala - Valencia Reserves via Everton Reserves.
MDM - Espanyol
Yaya - Couldn't get a club to take him, before finally landing in Olimpiacos
If these are good players like you are implying why are they all at bottom half of the table clubs or in Turkey or Greece? Why weren't top clubs sniffing around them.
Trying to pass of MDM, Mangala, Zabaleta, Sagna, Kolarov etc.. as top players is disingenuous at best, Klopp would have binned everyone. With regards to players like Sterling, Fernandinho you are picturing what Pep turned them into, not what they were when we signed them. If we take every player at their peak then its world class but out of that list only KDB and Aguero were at their peak. Many saw David Silva as on the decline until Pep got his hands on him.
If anything Pep inherited three top players (one of which was hugely imjury prone) from the Mancini era, one from Pellers, potential in Sterling and a whole bunch of dross that was bought for stupid money during the Pellers era.
I don't for a single second see him as the greatest manager in the transfer market but the "majority of his signings aren't great" thing is equally rubbish. Pep has spent well at City for the most part as its showing this season where he has only KDB/Sterling he inherited in the team. Every other player is a Pep signing.
We've just battered Liverpool and all those Klopp made world class signings 4-1 with 9 Pep signings, an academy player and Sterling in the team.
Also, their current form is without the best of his two inherited players, KdB and Aguero.
Pep will win the Prem this season. That much is clear. Here's hoping City do not win the CL, as being the best in Europe will encourage their owners to spend even more. They have got owners who are willing to spend and a manager who is one of the best in the world. Best combo one could dream of basically.
I just wrote down all of the City team he inherited. I did not mean all of them were World Class. I am also not arguing whether Pep improves players or not. It is obvious he does. He also makes the team much more than the sum of its parts with the system he employs.
But with an unlimited cheque book I don't see his signings better than his predecessors. KDB, Sterling, Aguero, Kompany, Silva, and Fernandinho at their best are better players than what Pep has brought in. Pep is responsible for them being at their best in many cases obviously. Out of Pep's signings I would count Ederson and maybe Bernardo Silva at that level. Pep gets judged to a different standard than other managers because he will likely be in contention for GOAT by the time he retires.
Regarding Klopp getting battered. If you have unlimited money and want to play the best football you bring in Pep. No one can dominate the way Pep does. If you have a budget and want to win you bring in Klopp. These two are the best managers in the world and both have their specific use cases. Klopp's team has been decimated with injuries. He doesn't have a second XI worth as much as his first like City has so we can't really read too much into this battering.
Is Guardiola really responsible for transfers at City? He certainly wasn't at Barca and Bayern. Liverpool's transfer business isn't organized by Klopp either if I'm not mistaken. Sure, they have their say when the club is targeting somebody but I can't imagine that they're the driving forces in signing players or planning the squad, especially Klopp.
IMO they're coaches, not managers.
I am assuming Pep has a big say at City simply because City built their entire management structure around him for many years before he was even appointed. They bought his brother a club in Spain on top of that. You don't do all of that and then not give him complete control over everything football related.
Liverpool transfers only became this world class after Klopp joined so again I assume it is him.