2021 Sheep Draft QF - Edgar Allan Pillow vs. Pat_Mustard

[Michaelf7777777]

Edgar Allan Pillow

Formation: WM / 3-2-2-3

Tactics - Defence:

- Gilmar mans the goal. One of the best Brazilian GKs of all time. An excellent shot stopper with excellent reflexes and a leader of the backline.

- No introduction needed for Paolo Maldini and Tarcisio Burgnich. No nonsense top notch defenders who have played as full backs and centre backs and highly suited to the defensive side back role for this formation.
- Fernando Hierro was one of the best players of his generation equally comfortable as Sweeper, CB and DM. Physically strong, excellent on the ball and know for his reading of the game, distribution of the ball and overall defensive astuteness, he'll command this defence.

- Marcel Desailly and Uli Stielike are versatile players in defence who are comfortable both as DMs and CBs. Both are well rounded with Desailly's uber-strong defensive presence complimenting Stielike's all action game. Desailly will be the more defensive of the duo giving more freedom to Stielike to be a bit more aggressive and move up when we have the ball to support the attack.

Tactics - Attack:

- Johan Cruyff and Rivelino are GOAT players who will get involved in all phases of the game, be it dropping deep to orchestrate play or moving up to score themselves.

- Paco Gento and Amancio Amaro are Top Notch players in their respective positions and will bring pace, creativity and ball carrying ability to the attack. Good at stretching play and opening spaces for others, or assisting with a cross themselves.

- Gabriel Batistuta spearherds the attack. A complete CF he'll be the focus occupying the defenders and leading the line. Both on the ground and in air, he'll have plenty of chances and his lethality in front of the goal will be the difference.


Why I'll win:

In Defense:

- Maldini and Burgnich are one of the few players who are upto the task of defending against Pat's wingers. Since they don't have attacking responsibilities, they will stay back not leaving any space for the wingers to exploit. Both are defensive monsters plus with help of Stielike/Desailly, our defence will be hard to breach. Desailly's presence especaially will help cover the Pele/Best axis supporting our defence.
- When off the ball, depending on the flank, one of the DMs would drop back making it a flat back 4 with other shielding. Maldini - Stielike - Hierro - Burgnich (or) Maldini - Hierro - Desailly - Burgnich. Stielike/Desailly/Hierro may freely interchange with each other depending on the game.
- Hierro is a physical and tactical good match for Kocsis. Physically equal, as good in air and good tactical positioning to deal with him all game!

In Attack:

Though cracking players our IF's are more than a match to his DMs. They are a good B2B, but without a dedicated DM covering against my 2 forwards, I have the edge.
- Plus my wingers will exploit the space behind his fullbacks are they provide with making his team vulnerable to the counter.

Pat_Mustard

Bog standard 4-2-3-1 really, that addresses both major complaints from my last match. Sandor Kocsis comes in at CF to replace Dalglish, and as a mobile, elusive goal threat with competent approach play he looks a worthy line-leader ahead of that scintillating Best-Pele-Hamrin cavalry. Giuseppe Furino comes in to replace the injured Robson - an enforced change and a downgrade in individual quality, but a specialist DM who will give both Passarella and Neeskens more licence to play their natural games.

 

[Michaelf7777777]

@Edgar Allan Pillow @Pat_Mustard

 

[Himannv]

Who is Furino?

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Hmmm, gutsy call to drop Robson. I expected it, but didn't think Pat would carry through.

Having 2 IFs is a big advantage when facing a single dedicated DM. Plus my AMs are tiers better than Furino. He certainly is a good DM, but quality of my IFs are just better.

Still, defensively I'm set up well to counter his attack, whilst in attack able to sneak in a goal on the counter.

 

[Physiocrat]

@Edgar Allan Pillow What's the shape you are going for in the organised defensive phase?

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

@Edgar Allan Pillow What's the shape you are going for in the organised defensive phase?

It resembles a flat back 4. Maldini or Burgnich will drift wide whilst Desailly or Stielike will drop back to cover insider and defend against inbound crosses. The other DM will support against on rushing Neeskens and help out overall.

When it comes to defensive FBs against top wingers, Maldini and Burgnich should be top rated.

Plus a major advantage is that my FBs don't have much attacking responsibilities, so they'll stay compact and ready leaving no space on counter.

 

[Šjor Bepo]

feck me if there is a more overrated thing in drafts then a WM

 

[Physiocrat]

It resembles a flat back 4. Maldini or Burgnich will drift wide whilst Desailly or Stielike will drop back to cover insider and defend against inbound crosses. The other DM will support against on rushing Neeskens and help out overall.

When it comes to defensive FBs against top wingers, Maldini and Burgnich should be top rated.

Plus a major advantage is that my FBs don't have much attacking responsibilities, so they'll stay compact and ready leaving no space on counter.

I get it will go to a flat back four I'm just wondering who is supporting the DM in midfield. Are Rivelino and Cruyff going to drop deep to make up three CMs in midfield? Or will Gento and or Amancio drop back to. As you describe it it kind of sounds like the front 5 will just hang forward most of the time.

 

[Synco]

I still have troubles to get my head around the WM in drafts. I have the impression that managers often try to assure everyone that in defense it actually becomes a different system, and therefore isn't really a WM?

 

[harms]

Who is Furino?

Legendary Juve captain that led them to god knows how many domestic titles. He was a great Mascherano-esque DM — tireless, not very tall, but tough as nails, decent in possession without any outstanding ability on the ball. Obviously top-notch mentality and leadership — he may be the longest-serving Juve captain or, at least, somewhere thereabouts, I’m too lazy to check.

He’s obviously not on the level of GOAT-ish defensive midfielders, but he’s a player who won’t look out of his depth in any game (unless you’ll ask him to play tiki-taka).

 

[harms]

By the way, Furino and Cruyff faced each other in the 1973 European Cup final

 

[Šjor Bepo]

I still have troubles to get my head around the WM in drafts. I have the impression that managers often try to assure everyone that in defense it actually becomes a different system, and therefore isn't really a WM?

I used to have problems with WMs as such but after giving it a more thought i can actually see them working, if anything they are very similar to the modern inverted fullback 433 system.
Problem is, people still see WMs as something new even though they are used fairly often so whenever someone builds a fairly good one it gets votes more cause of sympathy then to what is actually happening on the pitch.
Also, it annoys me how little you have to do to make it work, positionally pick the right players, maybe little attention for the attacking chemistry and thats it when in reality is that this is one of the most difficult systems to pull off and there is so much of those "little" things you have to get right(similar to tiki taka, total football and pretty much every system that doesnt revolve around individual quality, bad describtion but had a long night so will do).

 

[Enigma_87]

I get it will go to a flat back four I'm just wondering who is supporting the DM in midfield. Are Rivelino and Cruyff going to drop deep to make up three CMs in midfield? Or will Gento and or Amancio drop back to. As you describe it it kind of sounds like the front 5 will just hang forward most of the time.

As you I think Edgars defensive shape is fine but to me he’s one defensive minded midfield short unless either Cruyff or Rivelino is tasked with big defensive duties.

it’s tight due to Robbos injury and will follow the discussion but to me Pat has an advantage here.

 

[Jim Beam]

I will get few points across. Kind of playing with Edgar here. Am saying kind of as we talked about his team and should have started together, but in the end he fully built his team on his own so full credit to him as I think it is a brilliant one. Whether you like, buy or sell WM is another matter. Anyway, my vote doesn't count and am in some kind of AM role.

I still have troubles to get my head around the WM in drafts. I have the impression that managers often try to assure everyone that in defense it actually becomes a different system, and therefore isn't really a WM?

Pretty much every formation gets it's changes during different parts of the game. 4-4-2 diamond instantly becomes 4-3-3 in defensive shape for example and so on. It is fully another matter that WM as older tactics is a bit harder to envision. But, if you can play 3-2-3-2 in modern game you can for sure imagine how this one will function. Btw. 3-2-3-2 becomes 3-5-2 in the defensive phase.
Now, Edgar had 2 options. One was to pull down his wingers same as above mentioned formation. The other is to pull down a defender in the defensive phase which obviously makes it a 4-3-3 of sorts.
I like Edgar choice to go with that solution as you want Gento in best possible position for counter once the ball is taken.

Few points about it:
- think Edgar nailed it, you can't get much better players for side defenders and the ones who will go in such defensive shape once it is needed while Hierro will give him more control and possession from behind;
- that front 5 look devastating and am not even the biggest fan of Rivelino. Still, a perfect player here as you need more control in such system and he seems perfect for it with his vision and calming influence surrounded with Gento, Cruyff and Batistuta who can explode at any time;
- Batistuta is again a perfect striker for such formation upfront surrounded with so much creativity while also being able to stretch your defence for those behind him, especially Cruyff;
- it is perfect to block Pele in the initial phase which is the most dangerous one for the team as he is in congested area, so in such phase Pat team will rely on Best during quick transition most of the time. Yeah, Best is a beast, but if I had a choice I would block Pele out of two.
- you need more than Furino in that part of the pitch (3 national caps for Italy as a testament for that). Sure, a very good player, but you need more when you see who he is against.

it’s tight due to Robbos injury and will follow the discussion but to me Pat has an advantage here.

If he can win 5-4, yeah, I absolutely agree.

Leaving Edgar from now on. Best of luck to both.

 

[Physiocrat]

I used to have problems with WMs as such but after giving it a more thought i can actually see them working, if anything they are very similar to the modern inverted fullback 433 system.
Problem is, people still see WMs as something new even though they are used fairly often so whenever someone builds a fairly good one it gets votes more cause of sympathy then to what is actually happening on the pitch.
Also, it annoys me how little you have to do to make it work, positionally pick the right players, maybe little attention for the attacking chemistry and thats it when in reality is that this is one of the most difficult systems to pull off and there is so much of those "little" things you have to get right(similar to tiki taka, total football and pretty much every system that doesnt revolve around individual quality, bad describtion but had a long night so will do).

The big task is to pick the perfect inside forwards who can offer goal threat but can also defend. Scrappy had two of my favourite choices for that role a while back with Charlton and Gullit. Cruyff and Rivelino collectively don't offer enough defensively to make it work as well as it can.

On WM's being 433 with inverted full-backs another way of interpreting them that could work in the modern game but not used is a 433 with a sweeper who moves into midfield with the full-backs tucking in.

 

[Himannv]

It resembles a flat back 4. Maldini or Burgnich will drift wide whilst Desailly or Stielike will drop back to cover insider and defend against inbound crosses. The other DM will support against on rushing Neeskens and help out overall.

When it comes to defensive FBs against top wingers, Maldini and Burgnich should be top rated.

Plus a major advantage is that my FBs don't have much attacking responsibilities, so they'll stay compact and ready leaving no space on counter.

It’s a nice WM but it will not resemble a flat back 4 in the defensive phase. The formation graphic is the default defensive phase formation, so it is what it is, a back 3 with a DM and a DLP shielding them. One of the DMs might track the run of an AM and drop deeper in certain phases of play but it’s still a back 3, not a back 4.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

As you I think Edgars defensive shape is fine but to me he’s one defensive minded midfield short unless either Cruyff or Rivelino is tasked with big defensive duties.

it’s tight due to Robbos injury and will follow the discussion but to me Pat has an advantage here.

The big task is to pick the perfect inside forwards who can offer goal threat but can also defend. Scrappy had two of my favourite choices for that role a while back with Charlton and Gullit. Cruyff and Rivelino collectively don't offer enough defensively to make it work as well as it can.

Both Rivelino and Cruyff are capable of dropping to midfield and orchestrating plays, which is exactly what is needed. The key points is to transition the ball from defence to offense and I have a 4 vs 3 man advantage in the middle. There's just no way Pat can stop me moving the ball in midfield.

Plus it is supposed to be a attacking formation. When I get the ball, I'll have Cruyff and Rivelino facing Furino and Neeskens and that is a big advantage in the middle for me. A quick pasa from Hierro or Stielike and I can exploit the space behind Neeskens easily.

 

[Himannv]

Pretty much every formation gets it's changes during different parts of the game. 4-4-2 diamond instantly becomes 4-3-3 in defensive shape for example and so on. It is fully another matter that WM as older tactics is a bit harder to envision. But, if you can play 3-2-3-2 in modern game you can for sure imagine how this one will function. Btw. 3-2-3-2 becomes 3-5-2 in the defensive phase.

The 4-4-2 diamond is pretty much a 4-1-2-1-2 and that's the defensive formation. The AM doesn't normally push up into a front 3 in that formation. The wide midfielders might drop deeper into a 3 only in some specific phases and mostly it'll be only one of them dropping back at a time. Normally they'd line up as 4-1-2-1-2 off the ball. If it normally lines up off the ball as 4-3-3 then it's a 4-3-3 mate. I don't understand the 3-5-2 thing.

 

[Physiocrat]

It’s a nice WM but it will not resemble a flat back 4 in the defensive phase. The formation graphic is the default defensive phase formation, so it is what it is, a back 3 with a DM and a DLP shielding them. One of the DMs might track the run of an AM and drop deeper in certain phases of play but it’s still a back 3, not a back 4.

Well the intention of EAP is that it is a back four in the defensive phase rather than a three. That says it does raise the question of what the graphic actually represents - the three basic options are defensive phase, average position or the attacking phase. I generally took the view it was the defensive phase but most viewed it as the average position. This sort of makes sense because a 343 diamond such as LVG's at Ajax ended up a 523 in defence on occasions but it would be odd to show it that way.

This is the reason I think it worth providing three line-up pics. One for the average which will be the main picture and a defensive and attacking one as spoilered like I did in my match vs Ecstatic.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

It’s a nice WM but it will not resemble a flat back 4 in the defensive phase. The formation graphic is the default defensive phase formation, so it is what it is, a back 3 with a DM and a DLP shielding them. One of the DMs might track the run of an AM and drop deeper in certain phases of play but it’s still a back 3, not a back 4.

I said it resembles a back 4. You'll usually have a fullback to tackle opponent out wide. You'll have one of the CB moving up to tackle the tackle whereas other remains to cover. Something similar happens here. In here rather than CB moving up to tackle, you'll have a DM dropping back to do the same role. Hierro will be on Kocsis whereas say Stielike will cut off lanes between Hamrin and Pele.

 

[Enigma_87]

It’s a nice WM but it will not resemble a flat back 4 in the defensive phase. The formation graphic is the default defensive phase formation, so it is what it is, a back 3 with a DM and a DLP shielding them. One of the DMs might track the run of an AM and drop deeper in certain phases of play but it’s still a back 3, not a back 4.

It can resemble if the mechanics are as explained. I can see no issue with that. Maldini and Burgnich go wide and one of the DM’s drop back. It’s a transition that often even takes place in modern 3-4-3 to 4-3-3. The shift off the ball depends on the opposition tactics and where the ball is, but WM shifting into flat back four in the defensive phase is to me seemless and defend in 2 lines.

 

[Enigma_87]

Both Rivelino and Cruyff are capable of dropping to midfield and orchestrating plays, which is exactly what is needed. The key points is to transition the ball from defence to offense and I have a 4 vs 3 man advantage in the middle. There's just no way Pat can stop me moving the ball in midfield.

Plus it is supposed to be a attacking formation. When I get the ball, I'll have Cruyff and Rivelino facing Furino and Neeskens and that is a big advantage in the middle for me. A quick pasa from Hierro or Stielike and I can exploit the space behind Neeskens easily.

I have no problem with your offensive shape or when you are on the ball. To me there is your advantage with Cruyff / Rivelino exploiting and isolating Furino one on one to create advantage.

what I’m wondering is how you would cope with Pele in the hole. From what I understand when you are off the ball Stielike and Desailly become your CB pairing, which is also something I like and Hierro stays in the hole in his earlier incarnation that I rate.
That I buy. But in this particular case it’s Hierro vs Pele and then who drops back to cover? Cruyff? It’s not an unrealistic task, but want to get the general idea of how you defend the center when Pat is on the ball.
Other option is leave Desailly in the middle to mind Pele and have Hierro/Stielike as CB pair in the box, that might narrow the gap in terms of handling Pele, but with Kocsis in the box probably you need Desailly there.

 

[Enigma_87]

Well the intention of EAP is that it is a back four in the defensive phase rather than a three. That says it does raise the question of what the graphic actually represents - the three basic options are defensive phase, average position or the attacking phase. I generally took the view it was the defensive phase but most viewed it as the average position. This sort of makes sense because a 343 diamond such as LVG's at Ajax ended up a 523 in defence on occasions but it would be odd to show it that way.

This is the reason I think it worth providing three line-up pics. One for the average which will be the main picture and a defensive and attacking one as spoilered like I did in my match vs Ecstatic.

I agree that another formation where we can see how Edgar shapes up off the ball will help a lot.

he has 3 players between the zones in defence/midfield versatile enough to make it work but for me I wonder who will be handling who most of the cases. The OP pic is in possession and usually how WM is presented (always in possession)

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

But in this particular case it’s Hierro vs Pele and then who drops back to cover? Cruyff? It’s not an unrealistic task, but want to get the general idea of how you defend the center when Pat is on the ball.
Other option is leave Desailly in the middle to mind Pele and have Hierro/Stielike as CB pair in the box, that might narrow the gap in terms of handling Pele, but with Kocsis in the box probably you need Desailly there.

Hierro will be on Kocsis. One of Stielike of Desailly will be on Pele. For example, if Hamrin is having the ball, then Maldini will be tasked with drifting wide, Desailly will block passing lanes and Stielike will still be available should Pele/Nesskens still get the ball. Pele will mostly be sandwiched between Desailly and Stielike which is a strong defensive shield.

I'd still argue that the more influential mismatch is still Cruyff/Rivelino vs Furino. Even with Neeskens help it'd not be feasible at all....esp with the quality of rest of my attack.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

This is the reason I think it worth providing three line-up pics. One for the average which will be the main picture and a defensive and attacking one as spoilered like I did in my match vs Ecstatic.

I agree that another formation where we can see how Edgar shapes up off the ball will help a lot.

he has 3 players between the zones in defence/midfield versatile enough to make it work but for me I wonder who will be handling who most of the cases. The OP pic is in possession and usually how WM is presented (always in possession)

The reason I'm against phase formation is that is that it boils down to predicting what opponents would do. Ideally with caliber of players like Best and Pele, it'd be extremely hard to put them into stereotypical positions for their roles...just to show how I can defend against them.

The reason I've made tactical statements is to show flexibility over positions and whoever has the ball. At any point in time (a) one sideback will try to cover the ball holder, (b) one DM will cut passing lanes and (c) other DM available to cover any players who might still receive the ball.

Both formations have their own strengths and weaknesses. Challenge would be to identify which of the mismatch will be the most influential. I still believe that my team's advantage in middle is more likely to lead to a goal in my favor.

 

[Himannv]

Well the intention of EAP is that it is a back four in the defensive phase rather than a three. That says it does raise the question of what the graphic actually represents - the three basic options are defensive phase, average position or the attacking phase. I generally took the view it was the defensive phase but most viewed it as the average position. This sort of makes sense because a 343 diamond such as LVG's at Ajax ended up a 523 in defence on occasions but it would be odd to show it that way.

This is the reason I think it worth providing three line-up pics. One for the average which will be the main picture and a defensive and attacking one as spoilered like I did in my match vs Ecstatic.

The formation graphic is normally the defensive phase. So if it's a back 4 normally in the defensive phase, it's not really a WM. In a WM, the players in the fullback position stay close to the keeper while defending and mostly move wider only to prevent a long ball counter attack. The midfielders in this setup normally behave like midfielders, not players who slot into a CB position.

I've been reading up on this formation a bit during the last draft or two because I was actually planning on using this formation for the finals of that draft, hence the comments.

Maldini and Burgnich, in this case, are meant to be wide CBs not fullbacks - and they are good fits for those roles to be fair. He could maybe say it's a back 4 and that's fine, of course, but the formation graphic shouldn't represent a WM in that case. It's actually a very good WM in its pure form - Hierro could have difficulty dealing with Kocsis of course, but I assume Maldini or Burnich will help out at times and it leaves Desailly to deal with the biggest threat the opposition has - Pele.

EDIT - I also take your point about LVG's Ajax but I think that was very much a 3-4-3 diamond in the defensive phase as well. In certain phases when the opposition's wide player pushed up, it would shift with someone dropping back to cover that and that's understandable. It's different to saying this will normally operate like a back 4 in the defensive phase - that's a back 4 and not a WM.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Hierro could have difficulty dealing with Kocsis of course, but I assume Maldini or Burnich will help out at times and it leaves Desailly to deal with the biggest threat the opposition has - Pele.

And Stielike?

Plus I also have a advantage in having the better keeper in Gilmar.

 

[Himannv]

And Stielike?

Probably will deal with whatever Neeskens is up to. Why am I defending your team from you?

 

[Chesterlestreet]

It's different to saying this will normally operate like a back 4 in the defensive phase - that's a back 4 and not a WM.

I agree with this.

I dunno, but I feel that the implied fluency of the thing would suffer a bit here from facing an insanely strong attack. Maldini and Burgnich would be constantly called upon to keep track of Best/Hamrin. And at no point would you be comfortable centrally with an actual back 3. It's not a question of Desailly/Stielike dropping down as needed - they'd have to do that constantly in order to prevent Pelé, in particular, from running wild.

On the flip side, I really think Pat suffers from Robbo's absence here: An actual b2b player with considerable offensive qualities might have made EAP's system unravel completely - in terms of creating imbalances/overloading the defenders. But Furino, solid as he is, won't offer anything in that regard.

ETA

Thinking about it, in an actual WM I might be tempted to switch Desailly (who is the stronger overall defender) and Hierro:

Burgnich ------- Desailly ------- Maldini

Hierro --- Stielike

Cruyff --- Rivelino

Amaro ------ Batistuta ------ Gento​

 

[Jim Beam]

The 4-4-2 diamond is pretty much a 4-1-2-1-2 and that's the defensive formation. The AM doesn't normally push up into a front 3 in that formation. The wide midfielders might drop deeper into a 3 only in some specific phases and mostly it'll be only one of them dropping back at a time. Normally they'd line up as 4-1-2-1-2 off the ball. If it normally lines up off the ball as 4-3-3 then it's a 4-3-3 mate. I don't understand the 3-5-2 thing.

Should have made myself clearer.

4-4-2 diamond can go into 4-3-3 off the ball with the right players. It allows you to press defensively with front 3 while in the offensive phase AM pulls the defence out allowing wide attackers to run into the open space.

4-4-2 diamond on the ball & 4-3-3 off the ball

We played it against Spurs, Leipzig, PSG for example... Of course, you need to have right players to pull it off like Bruno, VDB, even Lingard who can operate as that kind of AM. The thing is that it was clearly 4-4-2 in attack and 4-3-3 in defence though in its shape. There are examples of other teams doing the same thing.

As for 3-2-3-2 or 3-5-2 in defensive phase, Enrique played it at times

The 3-2-3-2 idea is similar to 3-5-2 and it's one of the alternatives he has in mind

https://thefalse9.com/2015/01/analysing-barcelonas-3-2-3-2-formation.html

https://www.goal.com/en-us/news/88/...ball-luis-enrique-looking-to-play-3-2-3-2-for

Basically, Neymar and Pedro had to operate as wingbacks in defensive phase and track back. He gave up because Neymar couldn't fulfil the role.

So, it is absolutely wrong to see some formation as fixed and the shape can clearly move in offensive and defensive phase. The main thing is the question whether Edgar has the right personnel to implement that change here and it is clear for me that he has.

Further, while before you asked from the player to be versatile and be able to play in different positions, today many managers ask from the team as collective to be versatile and switch formations during various phases of the game. So, looking at that formation pic as something fixed is absolutely wrong from various examples in today's game.

Did Edgar explained the mechanics in both phases? Yes. You might not agree with it, you might think it will not work and that is absolutely your right. But to say, no that is a back 3 or back 4 (not WM) is plain wrong in so many ways as the team can change it's shape.

And most importantly, he has the right personnel here to implement it as I already said.

 

[Jim Beam]

Also, I might be wrong, but while am putting formation pic I put the team mechanics in the offensive phase also.

Good day to all, won't double down (especially as Pat is not here, just wanted to answer). And it is an interesting topic.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

Also, I might be wrong, but while am putting formation pic I put the team mechanics in the offensive phase also.

I generally take the formation pic (if there's only one) as depicting default positions - which is not the same as either offensive or defensive positions, but something in-between.

Then you factor in arrows (and preferably specific descriptions) to fill in the blanks with regard to how the players are meant to operate defensively/offensively.

I certainly do not consider the basic formation pic as an illustration of defensive shape.

 

[Pat_Mustard]

Also, I might be wrong, but while am putting formation pic I put the team mechanics in the offensive phase also.

Good day to all, won't double down (especially as Pat is not here, just wanted to answer). And it is an interesting topic.

I'm here now mate so feel free to post away!

 

[Jim Beam]

I generally take the formation pic (if there's only one) as depicting default positions - which is not the same as either offensive or defensive positions, but something in-between.

Then you factor in arrows (and preferably specific descriptions) to fill in the blanks with regard to how the players are meant to operate defensively/offensively.

I certainly do not consider the basic formation pic as an illustration of defensive shape.

Yeah, something like that. It is still more on the offensive side for me. This is how the team will be with the ball to be precise... If the team change it's shape, you use arrows as you said and further explain it in the thread.

I'm here now mate so feel free to post away!

Said most of it anyway mate. I also feel quite tired from my blabbering The floor is yours Edgar!

 

[Pat_Mustard]

I still have troubles to get my head around the WM in drafts. I have the impression that managers often try to assure everyone that in defense it actually becomes a different system, and therefore isn't really a WM?

I tend to agree here. I'm the first to admit that my understanding of the WM is sketchy at best, but repeatedly pointing out that it can effectively revert to something very close to a standard back four suggests that it would have been better to just go with a back four from the outset. Against wingers as great as Best and Hamrin, surely you'd want Burgnich and Maldini playing as FBs from the get-go rather than geing pulled out wide anyway and hoping a DM can plug the gap seamlessly?

 

[Pat_Mustard]

I agree with this.

I dunno, but I feel that the implied fluency of the thing would suffer a bit here from facing an insanely strong attack. Maldini and Burgnich would be constantly called upon to keep track of Best/Hamrin. And at no point would you be comfortable centrally with an actual back 3. It's not a question of Desailly/Stielike dropping down as needed - they'd have to do that constantly in order to prevent Pelé, in particular, from running wild.

On the flip side, I really think Pat suffers from Robbo's absence here: An actual b2b player with considerable offensive qualities might have made EAP's system unravel completely - in terms of creating imbalances/overloading the defenders. But Furino, solid as he is, won't offer anything in that regard.

Aye, this is the crux for me.

On Furino and Robbo, if it wasn't for the injury I doubt I could have brought myself to drop Robbo, for all the tactical 'neatness' Furino brings. There's still a good level of line-breaking threat from Neeskens though that Cruyff and Rivelino will struggle to live with, and there's the threat of a Passarella foray to keep them worried too.

 

[Pat_Mustard]

Legendary Juve captain that led them to god knows how many domestic titles. He was a great Mascherano-esque DM — tireless, not very tall, but tough as nails, decent in possession without any outstanding ability on the ball. Obviously top-notch mentality and leadership — he may be the longest-serving Juve captain or, at least, somewhere thereabouts, I’m too lazy to check.

He’s obviously not on the level of GOAT-ish defensive midfielders, but he’s a player who won’t look out of his depth in any game (unless you’ll ask him to play tiki-taka).

Lovely post harms. I'd actually planned on searching for your previous posts on Furino as I knew you'd discussed him before but this saves me the effort.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

Against wingers as great as Best and Hamrin, surely you'd want Burgnich and Maldini playing as FBs from the get-go rather than geing pulled out wide anyway and hoping a DM can plug the gap seamlessly?

That's my take on it too.

EAP actually has the players to field a plausible (enough) back four - and then a custom made, but also plausible midfield/attack further up the pitch.

Something like this:

Burgnich --- Desailly --- Stielike --- Maldini

Hierro

Cruyff ---------- Rivelino

Amaro ------------------------------------------- Gento

Batistuta
​

The bit in bold being a key part.

 

[Šjor Bepo]

that back 4 would either die on that pitch or strangle everyone in front. reckon its the former....

 

[Chesterlestreet]

There's a "problem" there, obviously, with multiple players being good fits for both the DM and CB roles. Some kind of overkill vibe going on there.

But that factor is going to be present in the WM version too.

Play Desailly as the main CB - and Stielike as more of a dedicated sweeper, perhaps:

Stielike
Burgnich - Desailly - Maldini
​

Desailly taking care of Kocsis (in the air, not least), Hierro (as the DM) tracking and pestering Pelé, Stielike - well - sweeping and filling in where he's needed.

And Burgnich/Maldini dedicated to Hamrin/Best.