European Super League

Do you want the ESL to happen?


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Frosty

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Analysis: The PM has set himself against the elite club plans. Here are some ways they could be challenged

While ministers might be united with fans and opposition parties in pledging to oppose a European Super League (ESL) including six English clubs, precisely how that might happen remains unclear for now – and is by no means straightforward. Here are some possible options:

A change to the law

This would pass easily through parliament, with Labour saying it would back emergency legislation to stop Manchester City, Manchester United, Liverpool, Arsenal, Chelsea and Tottenham breaking away to join the new league.

However, it remains unclear what form a new law would take. One option under consideration is to oblige English football clubs to have the German-style model of ownership by which fans are guaranteed a majority of share ownership, with the only exception in Germany being for people or companies that have invested for 20 or more years continuously.

This would almost certainly stop English clubs joining the new league, with leading German clubs turning down the chance to do so. However, it would also have an impact on the flow of investment into English football, particularly from overseas.

Action under competition rules
This would be based on the argument that the proposed format of the ESL – with 15 “founder” teams guaranteed permanent status and only five clubs taking part on merit each year – amounts to an anti-competitive closed shop. It would be “a theoretical argument to make - but it’s a difficult one”, according to Neil Baylis, a competition lawyer with the law firm Mishcon de Reya.

There is nothing intrinsically illegal about fixed-participant tournaments, for example the Six Nations in rugby union, meaning competition law would only be breached if it could be shown that the ESL was shutting out other teams from significant revenue.

“It’s quite a tough argument to run here,” said Baylis. “It’s not stopping the Premier League from carrying on, and with midweek games it’s deliberately trying not to compete head on with the Saturday afternoon timetable. So it’s far from obvious that everyone [is] going to only want to watch the Super League games.”

If a competition rules route was chosen, this could happen via official regulators such as the UK’s Competition and Markets Authority or its equivalent in countries where other ESL teams are based, or via the courts. With regulatory cases tending to take “months if not years”, the latter seemed more likely, Baylis said.

Complicating matters even further is the fact that ESL teams might themselves have recourse to the same laws if, as threatened, participating teams were thrown out of other competitions, or their players were barred from international tournaments, on the basis that this was an attempt to stifle competition.

The only precedent for any similar cases, Baylis said, had been in far smaller sports – ice skating and showjumping – where organising bodies were challenged for preventing sportspeople from taking part in non-affiliated events.

Removing government support
The culture secretary, Oliver Dowden, raised this idea in a Commons statement, saying the government could look at what it does “to facilitate matches, and facilitate those clubs – and looking at whether we should continue to provide that support”.
He did not specify what this might involve, but it could potentially mean, for example, being less willing to grant work permits for overseas players at UK-based ESL teams.

Restricting TV rights
Another potential lever for government could be controlling or restricting television rights, which would be the key income stream for the new league. But again this appears difficult, given the proliferation of TV and web-based streaming options now available.
One official route on televised sport is to add events to the so-called crown jewels, which under Ofcom regulation have to either be shown live or as highlights on free-to-air TV. This list, however, is rarely updated and very limited. For football, aside from the FA Cup final (and the Scottish Cup final on Scottish TV), it covers only the finals of the World Cup and the Euros.

Fan boycotts
Not under the control of government, obviously, but given the almost unanimously negative response from fans to the idea of the ESL, it is always possible that its undoing is something much less formal: a realisation among teams tempted to sign up that this could tarnish their brands for years, and shed far more money in customer boycotts than is gained via TV rights.

https://www.theguardian.com/footbal...per-league-what-can-boris-johnson-do-about-it
 

KekiZeki

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If we do go through with this it is only fair we get banned from Premier League.

Premier League, just think of the history we'd leave behind...

But I can't fault other clubs not wanting to compete with clubs who have other form of revenue they are excluded from. Likes of Everton, Leeds, Leicester etc. have to compete with us, but have no chance of getting the money we'd get in Super League. If it works out that is. I have no confidence in it working out.

We as fans must not allow this. Fans of other 5 clubs involved are against it. Kop have removed their flags from around Anfield, Spurs and Arsenal fans are ashamed of getting in to the league they don't deserve to be in... There need to be unity among fans to stop this. This is not our way.
 

dronesoul

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Its happening lads. Its took 3 decades, but finally the fans dont have a voice anymore. We've been priced out for years anyway, but this is like the final chapter in this being a peoples game. I'm sick to death of this sport. No romance or story in it anymore.
This is exactly how I feel too. They are extinguishing the soul of European football by making access to competitions and prizes a matter of money and not performance. No more small clubs who make amazing journeys both in culture and sports. No romance like that anymore. Only American-like money powered merchandise sale shows, without heart or culture.

I hope the cutting of the heart and blood flow of the sport will kill the current state of the sport and ruin them, so we can rebuild it from the ground up again.
 

Iosif

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I think your view of the Super League is a good litmus test for whether you're a fan of football or a fan of a football club.
 

Ixion

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So do we scrap World Cup qualifying next and just have a fixed competition every 4 years with the same 12 countries.
 

Zlatan 7

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Correct.

In addition to their nauseating levels of arrogance and self-grandeur, this power-grab robs the likes of West Ham, Leicester, Everton etc. their chance of a day in the sun. Or are supporters of those clubs so inferior they don’t deserve to play the Barcelonas, the Madrids and the Milans of this world?

It’s an absolutely despicable move and one which should never receive backing from any football fan with the integrity of the game at heart.
It’s sad that there’s people who are supposedly fans of United or football revelling in this and even worse, hoping it happens. What a shit show
 

Poborsky's hair

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Who cares about Europa league specialist Sevilla really? Still probably better than Arsenal and Spurs heh. If Super league then let's have the best 12 clubs in the world by their performance not because of their history. Will become boring in a while anyway..
 

UweBein

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It's pretty hilarious that this supposedly great European Super League counts
You can disregard this but it's a step, if fans will boycott this massively they will notice it
Which fans will boycott it though? The average fan does not have an account on redcafe.

Depending on how you calculate it, real fans, ultras, traditionalists make up 2-10% of all pay-TV customers. That's a small minority, but it's extremely vocal and completely dominates the discussion in online forums, etc. The majority of pay-TV customers simply buy a sports entertainment product and get sprinkled with it at the weekend or in the evening. They pay to watch Barcelona with Messi against Liverpool with van Dijk. They don't pay to see Alioski from Leeds against Brewster from Sheffield United.
 

Dve

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Would be surprised if they can legally do this, but we'll find out soon enough.
Uefa have shown in the past that they can throw teams out of their competitions (Besiktas 2013) and PL have a rule that blocks teams from participation in competition other than those specified.

The L9 guideline: "Except with the prior written approval of the board, during the season a club shall not enter or play its senior men's first team in any competition other than:

L.9.1 - The UEFA Champions League;

L.9.2 - The UEFA Europa League;

L.9.3 - The FA Cup;

L.9.4 - The FA Community Shield;

L.9.5 - The Football League Cup; or

L.9.6 - Competitions sanctioned by the County Association of which it is a member."


https://www.manchestereveningnews.c...emier-league-rule-european-breakaway-20418741
 

Jericholyte2

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Here’s an interesting question (or two) for the merit-based places...

  1. What happens if Team X win a place through winning the League or whatever, and then upsets everyone and wins it the next season? Would they just go back to the pot? Yeah cheers thanks for coming, no you don’t get to keep the trophy now bugger off back to the minor leagues?
  2. (On the basis that clubs get expelled from UEFA and domestic competitions if they take part) Who would ever say yes to participating if it essentially meant the end of their club after a year? Would they be accepted back to the league with open arms the following year? What is, say, Bayern Munich we’re invited, went, and we’re told not to come back to Germany, that they’re no longer welcome in the Bundesliga? Would it then become 16 + 4 or would the founding members let them rot?
 

JB7

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I'm sure that also was said to those who welcomed the PL over the first division and the CL over the European Cup.
If you can't understand the difference between expanded competition following the same (or expanded) qualification methods versus a completely closed shop based on nothing other than your current revenue then football is not the sport for you.
 

DWelbz19

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I’m sure this has been raised by some already, but what ramifications would the ESL have on the youth teams?
 

TheRedDevil2019

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Seeing as the Elite Super League appears to be in breach of UEFA/FIFA commitments. This puts the players in the firing line for punishment from said companies. This could put any player that has a conscience and want to cut ties in a position to legally tear up their contracts and leave for free if this goes ahead.

Through no fault of their own, players will lose out on international representation and possible domestic competition. If the players were united and tried to push through an escape clause in their contracts I think the elite clubs would be powerless here. The contracts are based on UEFA/FIFA/FA competition.
 

ReallyUSA

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Who cares about Europa league specialist Sevilla really? Still probably better than Arsenal and Spurs heh. If Super league then let's have the best 12 clubs in the world by their performance not because of their history. Will become boring in a while anyway..
Then how the feck are United in that 12?
 

golden_blunder

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Bit too much outrage. Football and success have been bought by plastics for many years now. City? Chelsea? Even PSG. Where would they be without oil money pumped into them.

This is just another step in the direction football has been going for years.
Maybe but enough is enough
 

Paul the Wolf

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Uefa have shown in the past that they can throw teams out of their competitions (Besiktas 2013) and PL have a rule that blocks teams from participation in competition other than those specified.

The L9 guideline: "Except with the prior written approval of the board, during the season a club shall not enter or play its senior men's first team in any competition other than:

L.9.1 - The UEFA Champions League;

L.9.2 - The UEFA Europa League;

L.9.3 - The FA Cup;

L.9.4 - The FA Community Shield;

L.9.5 - The Football League Cup; or

L.9.6 - Competitions sanctioned by the County Association of which it is a member."


https://www.manchestereveningnews.c...emier-league-rule-european-breakaway-20418741
But it's not this season, it will be next season at the earliest. If UEFA did do it, they're finished.
 

Bilbo

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Its interesting to read the levels of outrage or negativity, or whatever the correct word is, on this forum. Interesting because the vast majority of posters on this site support clubs that are actually in the bloody thing.

I can only imagine what it must feel like to be a supporter of any other club in the country, particularly those that have somewhat realistic ambitions of actually competing for European football. Its hope that drives a lot of the emotions that make giving a shit about a team worthwhile.
 

Jack-C20

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So do we scrap World Cup qualifying next and just have a fixed competition every 4 years with the same 12 countries.
Yes and hopefully at the quarterfinal stage all the remaining teams apart from England, announce a break away competition, resulting in them being disqualified and England being awarded the trophy :drool:
 

Jonas Jönebratt

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We should all do the GameStop thing again. Feck the billioners over. Stop support the club’s(the owner). Let them lose all the money and we start all over again. 51% rule. No billioners will be able to buy the new clubs. Lower salaries for the players.etc
 

JJ12

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I’m sure this has been raised by some already, but what ramifications would the ESL have on the youth teams?
The greedy cnuts haven’t thought that far ahead. I’ll assume they play the same tournament at different age levels? Who knows.

They are doing a women’s version of the super league I know that.
 

Ixion

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I'm sure that also was said to those who welcomed the PL over the first division and the CL over the European Cup.
Go and look at the final table of the 1991 First Division season and compare it to the 1992 Premier League teams. Let me know what you find out.
 

Tapori

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Analysis: The PM has set himself against the elite club plans. Here are some ways they could be challenged

While ministers might be united with fans and opposition parties in pledging to oppose a European Super League (ESL) including six English clubs, precisely how that might happen remains unclear for now – and is by no means straightforward. Here are some possible options:

A change to the law

This would pass easily through parliament, with Labour saying it would back emergency legislation to stop Manchester City, Manchester United, Liverpool, Arsenal, Chelsea and Tottenham breaking away to join the new league.

However, it remains unclear what form a new law would take. One option under consideration is to oblige English football clubs to have the German-style model of ownership by which fans are guaranteed a majority of share ownership, with the only exception in Germany being for people or companies that have invested for 20 or more years continuously.

This would almost certainly stop English clubs joining the new league, with leading German clubs turning down the chance to do so. However, it would also have an impact on the flow of investment into English football, particularly from overseas.

Action under competition rules
This would be based on the argument that the proposed format of the ESL – with 15 “founder” teams guaranteed permanent status and only five clubs taking part on merit each year – amounts to an anti-competitive closed shop. It would be “a theoretical argument to make - but it’s a difficult one”, according to Neil Baylis, a competition lawyer with the law firm Mishcon de Reya.

There is nothing intrinsically illegal about fixed-participant tournaments, for example the Six Nations in rugby union, meaning competition law would only be breached if it could be shown that the ESL was shutting out other teams from significant revenue.

“It’s quite a tough argument to run here,” said Baylis. “It’s not stopping the Premier League from carrying on, and with midweek games it’s deliberately trying not to compete head on with the Saturday afternoon timetable. So it’s far from obvious that everyone [is] going to only want to watch the Super League games.”

If a competition rules route was chosen, this could happen via official regulators such as the UK’s Competition and Markets Authority or its equivalent in countries where other ESL teams are based, or via the courts. With regulatory cases tending to take “months if not years”, the latter seemed more likely, Baylis said.

Complicating matters even further is the fact that ESL teams might themselves have recourse to the same laws if, as threatened, participating teams were thrown out of other competitions, or their players were barred from international tournaments, on the basis that this was an attempt to stifle competition.

The only precedent for any similar cases, Baylis said, had been in far smaller sports – ice skating and showjumping – where organising bodies were challenged for preventing sportspeople from taking part in non-affiliated events.

Removing government support
The culture secretary, Oliver Dowden, raised this idea in a Commons statement, saying the government could look at what it does “to facilitate matches, and facilitate those clubs – and looking at whether we should continue to provide that support”.
He did not specify what this might involve, but it could potentially mean, for example, being less willing to grant work permits for overseas players at UK-based ESL teams.

Restricting TV rights
Another potential lever for government could be controlling or restricting television rights, which would be the key income stream for the new league. But again this appears difficult, given the proliferation of TV and web-based streaming options now available.
One official route on televised sport is to add events to the so-called crown jewels, which under Ofcom regulation have to either be shown live or as highlights on free-to-air TV. This list, however, is rarely updated and very limited. For football, aside from the FA Cup final (and the Scottish Cup final on Scottish TV), it covers only the finals of the World Cup and the Euros.

Fan boycotts
Not under the control of government, obviously, but given the almost unanimously negative response from fans to the idea of the ESL, it is always possible that its undoing is something much less formal: a realisation among teams tempted to sign up that this could tarnish their brands for years, and shed far more money in customer boycotts than is gained via TV rights.

https://www.theguardian.com/footbal...per-league-what-can-boris-johnson-do-about-it
Finally, football fans will see legislation governing us through democracy and parliament - however flawed - has potential to change things for the better.
 
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Does no one understand the precarious position that all these players and managers are in?? It's completely different to that, pretty different set of players as well. :houllier::houllier:
The players are more powerful than the owners. Nobody watches football because of Joel Glazer or Daniel Levy.

If the players made an actual stand - strike action in particular - that would be the fastest way to end all of this. Probably the only way actually, outside of a legal intervention.

Unfortunately, most of them are either cowards or aggressively self-serving. We've had exactly one player who's made any sort of statment (Bruno)...and it's no coincidence that he's one of our only players who doesn't have a PR team or a social media manager.

Half the rest are either waiting for others to speak out first, to test the waters, because their brand identity is more important than their princples. The other half are waiting to find out what a Super League would mean for their next contract, because becoming an even bigger millionaire is (much) more important than the supporters wishes.