Top 4 race / race abandoned (or maybe not) / Leicester & Chelsea in the process of bottling it

[cyberman]

I guess you were telling yourself that in 2018 as well before finishing 6th in 2019. It really doesn't mean that much.

I'd much rather be in Chelsea's position right now than yours to close the season.

Everybody would rather be in a CL semi final than second, thats cheating the point.
We were going into Jose 3rd season in 2019, nobody expected us to do well. We werent inproving, we werent growing as a side. Thats the difference. Knowing what to do, and how to improve, and actually doing it are 2 different points entirely.
If floating between 4th and 5th is appealing to you then go ahead and praise it. All i remember is the 80 plus points projection of Chelsea last summer and how theyre as far off that now as they were 300m ago.

 

[charlenefan]

Really? Not even City?

Everything at Chelsea is the best ever!!!!!

 

[weetee]

Everything at Chelsea is the best ever!!!!!

Don't be ridiculous.

As for City, I'd personally take the CL title, maybe even won in the finale against city, and the FA cup, where Chelsea had to beat City as well, over the PL title. Others wouldn't, so what's the deal here? But mostly the convo was about which would be better: 2nd or 4th (bit of a nonsense question) and I'd definitely take the forth place if my team had a decent shot at the CL title over a second place where the team didn't really compete for the title either but didn't even surpass the group stage in the CL. Others may disagree with it and that's fine.

 

[Pow]

Not prentending no (if you weren't in a position to win a trophy full stop I wouldn't have said you maybe wouldn't win one) but just as you don't get a trophy for finishing 2nd you don't get a trophy for being a runner up in a cup competition either and if you want to talk about pretending let's not pretend you've had it tough in the draws that have seen you get to where you are in those competitions. City, PSG and Madrid have all had tougher routes to the CL SF's than Chelsea and bar the SF in the FA Cup you had it easy in that competition as well

But like I said everything at Chelsea is the best ever always isn't it

Tough draws yet we topped our group and got the hardest team we could have possibly got in atletico.
It's not out fault juve couldn't ko Porto. But sure keep making excuses

 

[WeePat]

Although I'd love us winning the FA cup and CL and do a photo-finish for 4th (ideally 3rd but 4th would do as well) though. Not a lot of teams I would "trade" season with - actually none - and definitely not a club finishing 2nd, without any real shot at the title, and winning the EL. But it's quite pointless to disuss this atm imho.

The discussion was strictly about the league though.

 

[Caerus Little]

I made some predictions in late February.
1. ManCity: 90
2. ManUnited: 86
3. LeicesterCity: 69
4. Chelsea: 65
....
8. Everton: 59
9. Liverpool: 58

I don't expect these points, but the placements don't appear to be too far off.

 

[Berbasbullet]

Don't be ridiculous.

As for City, I'd personally take the CL title, maybe even won in the finale against city, and the FA cup, where Chelsea had to beat City as well, over the PL title. Others wouldn't, so what's the deal here? But mostly the convo was about which would be better: 2nd or 4th (bit of a nonsense question) and I'd definitely take the forth place if my team had a decent shot at the CL title over a second place where the team didn't really compete for the title either but didn't even surpass the group stage in the CL. Others may disagree with it and that's fine.

But City are in the champions league too?
Surely 1st, league cup win, in UCL semi final > 4th, FA cup final, UCL semi, sacked your legend.

Sorry that last one was a cheap shot, hey this is a football forum, why not.

 

[weetee]

The discussion was strictly about the league though.

I don't think so, multiple posters mentioned the situation Chelsea is in taking the cups into consideration. Anyway, strictly regarding the league I'd always say finishing second would be much preferable than finishing 4th. Of course, if it's a super tight phot-finish where only one point or maybe even only a couple of goals more/less would decide about places 2-4 I'd rate that as almost equally. On the upside about our situation now in the league compared to United: we really have exciting games til the very end whereas United can almost close shop and wait til the next season begins.

But City are in the champions league too?
Surely 1st, league cup win, in UCL semi final > 4th, FA cup final, UCL semi, sacked your legend.

Sorry that last one was a cheap shot, hey this is a football forum, why not.

Nah I was talking in hindsight IF Chelsea would win the CL title and FA cup I'd take that over Citys PL title. If we lose to Southampton in the cup and get ridiculed by Madrid while barely making 4th that wouldn't be a disaster but nothing to brag about either.
You can't catch me with Lampards sackin though..great player but he didn't convince me (yet) as a top tier coach.

 

[Berbasbullet]

I don't think so, multiple posters mentioned the situation Chelsea is in taking the cups into consideration. Anyway, strictly regarding the league I'd always say finishing second would be much preferable than finishing 4th. Of course, if it's a super tight phot-finish where only one point or maybe even only a couple of goals more/less would decide about places 2-4 I'd rate that as almost equally.



Nah I was talking in hindsight IF Chelsea would win the CL title and FA cup I'd take that over Citys PL title. If we lose to Southampton in the cup and get ridiculed by Madrid while barely making 4th that wouldn't be a disaster but nothing to brag about either.
You can't catch me with Lampards sackin though..great player but he didn't convince me (yet) as a top tier coach.

Aaah okay, I thought we were talking about now, oh yeah UCL and FA cup would be the best season out of anyone for sure.

 

[WeePat]

I don't think so, multiple posters mentioned the situation Chelsea is in taking the cups into consideration. Anyway, strictly regarding the league I'd always say finishing second would be much preferable than finishing 4th. Of course, if it's a super tight phot-finish where only one point or maybe even only a couple of goals more/less would decide about places 2-4 I'd rate that as almost equally. On the upside about our situation now in the league compared to United: we really have exciting games til the very end whereas United can almost close shop and wait til the next season begins.



Nah I was talking in hindsight IF Chelsea would win the CL title and FA cup I'd take that over Citys PL title. If we lose to Southampton in the cup and get ridiculed by Madrid while barely making 4th that wouldn't be a disaster but nothing to brag about either.
You can't catch me with Lampards sackin though..great player but he didn't convince me (yet) as a top tier coach.

The discussion I was engaging in was just about the differences between finishing 2nd and 4th. I'd rather close up shop and play out meaningless league games due to being secure in 2nd than still trying to scrape 4th. But yes of course, if we're taking the season on the whole into consideration I wouldn't swap places.

 

[Judas]

I thought this thread was about the top 4 race?

It's obvious why many like myself would rather finish 2nd than 3rd, its progress, especially if you get more points. Better progress than the drab 2nd under Jose too.

But as I've said before, if we fail to get 2nd, it's on Ole and the players because its the least we should be achieving after how this season has developed. It would be very disappointing to me.

 

[Dancfc]

Of course you would because everything at Chelsea is the best ever cleary

I mean who wouldn't want to spend millions in the summer on attacking players for them all to flop, to play awful football and barely score, to sack their club legend of a manager half way into the season, to be in a top 4 fight with West Ham and to maybe finish the season without a trophy. That's the dream isn't it?

Would you swap positions if it meant our respective European competitions were switched?

You will almost certainly finish above us and fair enough domestically you've been better, will you have the better season? That one is not even remotely close to being as cut and dry.

 

[charlenefan]

Would you swap positions if it meant our respective European competitions were switched?

You will almost certainly finish above us and fair enough domestically you've been better, will you have the better season? That one is not even remotely close to being as cut and dry.

Whether Chelsea have had a better season or not entirely rests on whether they win the UCL or not. Even Spurs got to a final of the UCL not so long ago and I'm sure you especially as a Chelsea fan were downplaying that as an achievement

 

[Dancfc]

Whether Chelsea have had a better season or not entirely rests on whether they win the UCL or not. Even Spurs got to a final of the UCL not so long ago and I'm sure you especially as a Chelsea fan were downplaying that as an achievement

Absolutely not it hurt because it was Spurs and that final matchup made me want to join a tribe in the Amazon but i remember being really envious watching those big nights that season, not just with Spurs but Ajax, you in Paris and ofcourse Liverpool were making memories you'd never forget while we were at the time on a run of 5 years without a single CL knockout win.

Furthermore unless Real do a Bayern/Arsenal job on us our players will get a lot out of this run going forward whatever happens now, especially the younger ones.

 

[Zaphod2319]

Last season despite not challenging for the title City were comfortably sat in 2nd while us, Chelsea and Leicester were scrambling for a top 4 finish on the final day

This season we've been sat comfortably in 2nd while Chelsea have still be scrambling for a top 4 finish

You really saying there's no difference?

The difference is we are looking good in the FA cup and a real opportunity to win the Champions League. I would much rather have that then 2nd place. I am not saying Man Utd shouldn't enjoy their season. I think both teams have reason to feel good about the season. I get more excited about trophies than the 2-4th place finishes. There is only one PL winner and the rest lost it.

 

[foxedup]

Leicester have us, Chelsea and Spurs in their final three games. I don't see them getting enough points on the board from those three games to get near enough to have second place be in danger IMO

In the return first round of fixtures, we got 7 points from those games. I don't expect us to finish 2nd at all, but there does seem an element of "oh it's only Leicester" still when we play other teams.

 

[cyberman]

Would you swap positions if it meant our respective European competitions were switched?

You will almost certainly finish above us and fair enough domestically you've been better, will you have the better season? That one is not even remotely close to being as cut and dry.

If you crash out of CL and finish 4th then we have had the better season? Otherwise its just a cup run. We have had 5 semi finals in 12 months, not much talk of fantastic seasons then.
Its what Ole says, you cant judge progress on cup competitions.

 

[foxedup]

That would require Leicester to get results away to United, away to Chelsea and home to Spurs with a cup final thrown in between. This same team just scraped a win against Crystal Palace.

Chelsea drew with Brighton and lost to West Brom, Spurs drew with Newcastle and scraped a win against Saints thanks to a last-minute penalty. Hardly scintillating themselves eh.

 

[laughtersassassin]

If we need to sacrifice 2nd to win Europa then I'm all for it.

Winning Europa is the most important thing in our season now.

 

[Leicester Fox]

In the return first round of fixtures, we got 7 points from those games. I don't expect us to finish 2nd at all, but there does seem an element of "oh it's only Leicester" still when we play other teams.

I disagree, I think we’re now very much seen as tough fixture.

 

[Dancfc]

If you crash out of CL and finish 4th then we have had the better season? Otherwise its just a cup run. We have had 5 semi finals in 12 months, not much talk of fantastic seasons then.
Its what Ole says, you cant judge progress on cup competitions.

If we both end up with nothing we won't truly know who's had the better season till a later date (if we don't drop out of top 4).

Why? Because it will probably boil down how both clubs build on the relative success, if one of us kick on and use it as a springboard to challenge and the other dives down to 6th then there's your answer. Case in point would be 17/18, on paper you had a better season than Liverpool but in hindsight they got a lot more out of it (for the sake of adding balance the same thing happened in reverse in 01/02).

 

[BeforeKeanetherewasRobson]

I think those 2 points dropped to Newcastle could be huge for Liverpool.

Few points to make up but fixtures look better (overall) and no European games to manage.

If City and Chelsea are rotating for their league game, I'd take City's (hundred million billion) second string over Chelsea's.

Really hope Liverpool end up in the Europa Conference League... "Liverpool" and "Conference League" has a nice ring to it. Looks unlikely though.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.th...-avoid-new-uefa-europa-conference-league/amp/

 

[acnumber9]

QUOTE="foxedup, post: 27132766, member: 100552"]
Chelsea drew with Brighton and lost to West Brom, Spurs drew with Newcastle and scraped a win against Saints thanks to a last-minute penalty. Hardly scintillating themselves eh.
[/QUOTE]
No, but it’s not them winning their last five games that we’re talking about.

 

[cyberman]

If we both end up with nothing we won't truly know who's had the better season till a later date (if we don't drop out of top 4).

Why? Because it will probably boil down how both clubs build on the relative success, if one of us kick on and use it as a springboard to challenge and the other dives down to 6th then there's your answer. Case in point would be 17/18, on paper you had a better season than Liverpool but in hindsight they got a lot more out of it (for the sake of adding balance the same thing happened in reverse in 01/02).

But this isnt in isolation. We got 3rd last year and are now a clear 2nd, this is Utd building on last season. We will be 2 full years into Oles rebuild, not the start.

 

[rotherham_red]

In the return first round of fixtures, we got 7 points from those games. I don't expect us to finish 2nd at all, but there does seem an element of "oh it's only Leicester" still when we play other teams.

It's not so much that, as you guys have been just as patchy as the rest of the teams chasing Top 4 recently. For every good performance like the one against Sheffield Utd recently for example, you've had stinkers like Arsenal, Villa, West Ham etc and the games you've won most recently like Brighton and Palace, were games where the overall performance wasn't actually that great.

I think if you guys had that bit more consistency about you, I'd be sitting up and taking a little more notice with regard to second place but right now, I don't think it's quite there.

For what it's worth, I think you'll get two draws (against us and Chelsea) and a win from your last three games, or maybe swap out one of the draws for a loss, but I just can't see you picking up 9 from 9 at this point.

 

[Maluco]

I watched Chelsea’s last game and I really hope they aren’t counting on possibly winning the CL.

Even with an FA Cup win, I wouldn’t trade United’s position now with Chelsea.

Tuchel hasn’t pulled up trees and, although it’s early days, they are playing some terrible football. Werner looks awful and Havertz can’t even get a game.

 

[Fox_Chrys]

Finishing 2-4 you win nothing, you not remembered for it. You qualify for CL group stage, no effect on seeding.

If I was offered FA cup now in trade for a top 4 place, it is "yes please!!" especially as we have never won it before.

So I don't care for a fight for second place, the win increases the gap to 5th, which is where I think the majority of LCFC fans will be looking in terms of the league placing.

 

[foxedup]

I disagree, I think we’re now very much seen as tough fixture.

What I'm saying is that if Spurs were 3rd playing Leicester in 7th, the attitude would be "Spurs are likely to beat them". Yet all I ever read is how we'll be lucky to get much playing against two teams below us, and teams we've already taken 7 points from.

 

[foxedup]

It's not so much that, as you guys have been just as patchy as the rest of the teams chasing Top 4 recently. For every good performance like the one against Sheffield Utd recently for example, you've had stinkers like Arsenal, Villa, West Ham etc and the games you've won most recently like Brighton and Palace, were games where the overall performance wasn't actually that great.

I think if you guys had that bit more consistency about you, I'd be sitting up and taking a little more notice with regard to second place but right now, I don't think it's quite there.

For what it's worth, I think you'll get two draws (against us and Chelsea) and a win from your last three games, or maybe swap out one of the draws for a loss, but I just can't see you picking up 9 from 9 at this point.

Fully appreciate that, but so are the others and I rarely see that taken into account. It's just always "won't get much from those games", we might not. Anyway, no doubt would take another 5 years of top 6 finishes to get peoples mindsets to change.

 

[rotherham_red]

Fully appreciate that, but so are the others and I rarely see that taken into account. It's just always "won't get much from those games", we might not. Anyway, no doubt would take another 5 years of top 6 finishes to get peoples mindsets to change.

Oh don't get me wrong mate, they are even more inconsistent - that's why they are where they are, and their fixture lists are only slightly less difficult than yours, but I'm not comparing them to you.

I'm comparing us to you, and what we've seen so far is that we're steadily getting the results in a very matter of fact fashion. They haven't always been fantastically cavalier, but we've generally done well enough to have deserved the wins we've gotten in this last portion of the season. In the face of that, I just don't see you guys getting 2nd as it stands, unless Ole completely goes off script from what he's done since he joined and sacrifices the league for the EL (very unlikely).

Leicester totally deserve to be in the Top 4, and they should have been last year too, and for me, you have fully replaced Arsenal in that "big 6" conversation, and depending on what Spurs do, I think we could potentially be calling it a Big 5 this time next year.

 

[Tapori]

It would be quite hilarious to watch Chelsea reach but not win the CL Final and concurrently finish an agonizing 5th on -1 point difference or Level with inferior GD

 

[Focusmate]

For me, finishing 2nd only matters if we then kick on and win trophies next season.
People obsess about top 4 but again unless it leads to trophies and is sustained then it really doesnt matter beyond the finances. If we drop out of top 4 in 2 years and havent won some pots it will be for nothing.
For me this seasons performance is no better than the year we came 2nd under Mourinho - the main difference is that we have lowered expectations and Ole is generally liked by the fan base, media and players.
We still need to kick on next season or it will be a failure.

 

[Topgun1]

you have fully replaced Arsenal in that "big 6" conversation, and depending on what Spurs do, I think we could potentially be calling it a Big 5 this time next year.

Do you actually believe Leicester are a bigger club than Arsenal, or are you just saying that to make "foxedup" feel better?

 

[rotherham_red]

Do you actually believe Leicester are a bigger club than Arsenal, or are you just saying that to make "foxedup" feel better?

I'm not talking about size of club, I'm talking about on pitch achievements, and in terms of average position over the course of the last 5 years, they've been better than Arsenal and arguably us as well. Add in their astute purchases and strength in getting the deals they want when they sell, and I'd say it's very well set up for them in the short to mid-term at least, to be a proper Top 4 chaser in the years to come. Certainly better than Arsenal in any case.

 

[cyberman]

For me, finishing 2nd only matters if we then kick on and win trophies next season.
People obsess about top 4 but again unless it leads to trophies and is sustained then it really doesnt matter beyond the finances. If we drop out of top 4 in 2 years and havent won some pots it will be for nothing.
For me this seasons performance is no better than the year we came 2nd under Mourinho - the main difference is that we have lowered expectations and Ole is generally liked by the fan base, media and players.
We still need to kick on next season or it will be a failure.

Its better than Mourinhos because of our 3rd place last year. How can it not be?

 

[Zaphod2319]

If Arsenal do not get a decent owner soon, their run as a top club will be a memory.

 

[Focusmate]

Do you actually believe Leicester are a bigger club than Arsenal, or are you just saying that to make "foxedup" feel better?

People think of different things when they say big club though.
For me its about support base around England in particular - so Arsenal would likely come 3rd after United and Pool. Id see the likes of Villa Leeds and Newcastle as big clubs even though theyve done nothing recently.
Other people see recent titles as meaning your a big club whereas for me recent titles can build support which makes you “bigger” in the long run
But i guess someone could argue Leicester have won the title recently and are a better team recently?

 

[Focusmate]

Its better than Mourinhos because of our 3rd place last year. How can it not be?

Not sure why last years 3rd matters? We had won 2 trophies the season before with Mourinho but it went sour v quick the 3rd season.
Im saying that next season needs to bring success (not just another top 4) or it will ultimately not mean anything even if it ends with a happier vibe than it did with Oles predecessor

 

[Topgun1]

I'm not talking about size of club, I'm talking about on pitch achievements, and in terms of average position over the course of the last 5 years, they've been better than Arsenal and arguably us as well. Add in their astute purchases and strength in getting the deals they want when they sell, and I'd say it's very well set up for them in the short to mid-term at least, to be a proper Top 4 chaser in the years to come. Certainly better than Arsenal in any case.

I agree with their growing strength completely, I think it's a very well-run club with a lot of potential and they might very well displace us in the medium term but it's too early to tell. Things can change very quickly.

They won the league title in 2016 as well which is a phenomenal achievement, but that's the only title in their history and the only trophy they won in the last 20 years. We have to put things into perspective. We've been awful in recent years and still bagged 3 FA cups. In the last 20 years, we won 15 trophies, they don't get to erase that just by finishing above us for a few seasons- it doesn't really work like that.

We might also win the EL if we play well this season (probably Man Utd are favourites), but if we do manage to win, we're back in the CL already. That's how quickly things can change. And with our financial clout and brand compared to Leicester's, it would be very difficult for them to compete in that case. Players want to come to Arsenal, more than they want to play for Leicester. But we desperately need CL football back in the Emirates to sustain that and much better management too.

Prolonged years without CL is damaging to Arsenal and it will only be a matter of time before we won't manage to recover unfortunately, I accept that to be the case. Especially with our current owners.

People think of different things when they say big club though.
For me its about support base around England in particular - so Arsenal would likely come 3rd after United and Pool. Id see the likes of Villa Leeds and Newcastle as big clubs even though theyve done nothing recently.
Other people see recent titles as meaning your a big club whereas for me recent titles can build support which makes you “bigger” in the long run
But i guess someone could argue Leicester have won the title recently and are a better team recently?

That's a good point yeah. It's definitely about the amount of support a team has behind them. A lot of people were salty that the European super league wanted to include Arsenal but they don't realize that it would whet the appetite of millions of fans around the world. Leicester vs Real Madrid isn't a money-spinner. There aren't people all over Europe/America/Asia etc. clamouring to see how well Leicester does against Barcelona. That's just a fact. Arsenal have a global following and there's more money to be made by having Arsenal in European competitions.

 

[cyberman]

Not sure why last years 3rd matters? We had won 2 trophies the season before with Mourinho but it went sour v quick the 3rd season.
Im saying that next season needs to bring success (not just another top 4) or it will ultimately not mean anything even if it ends with a happier vibe than it did with Oles predecessor

Of course it does. Second was a mirage between 6th and that disaster of a third season. Plus we werent even the second best team that year, we were only second because Liverpool signed VVD in January and focused on CL. Nobody is near us today.
This second is different because we finished 3rd last year. It shows consistency over two seasons and finding a rhythm of play. That second meant nothing because it was such a leap from the year before, and DDG had his best ever superman season, that it distorts any sense of progress made.