Should we sell Dan James? - Leeds move confirmed

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RiqCantona

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Yeah, no, that's not how it works. You can't just take out a goal scoring run for any reason (because he was an "unkown entity"). By that logic, Greenwood has 1 goal and 1 assist in 22 league appearances last season (if you take out his goal scoring form in the last couple of games).

If your criticism is James is streaky, fine, but there's no need to make him seem less productive.
Umm... no, that is not how you interpret data. Data is analysed by the majority of incidents, and not by exceptions. Exceptions are always disregarded.

He is quite unproductive. 3 goals in his first 4 games... and then 3 goals in the next 44 games. I believe that's a very clear difference and perhaps proves that his development hasn't been satisfactory. The reasons I took it out is because it will not give you a true representation of the type of player he is. His first 4 games would make him seem like the next Ronaldo - at 0.75 goals per game. But we clearly know that is not the case - this is an exception. You only need to look at the vast majority of the games rather than these outliers, because his first 4 games are massively skewed in his favour. His average goals per game for the next 44 is .06. Massive difference.

I think there's a big difference in how we perceive players.
 

VanDeBank

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Umm... no, that is not how you interpret data.
The Dunning-Kruger effect.

Data is analysed by the majority of incidents, and not by exceptions. Exceptions are always disregarded.
So by your logic, if a player doesn't score in the majority of his appearances, the games were he did score are exceptions and the games where he didn't are "the majority of incidents" So we can selectively leave out up to 49% of games in an average?

If you were neutral towards James, you would take all his games and goals into consideration.

He is quite unproductive. 3 goals in his first 4 games... and then 3 goals in the next 44 games. I believe that's a very clear difference and perhaps proves that his development hasn't been satisfactory.
Sure. I never argued to the contrary.

The reasons I took it out is because it will not give you a true representation of the type of player he is.
I get it, you don't like James and took out some of games where he scored to make the stats look worse.

His first 4 games would make him seem like the next Ronaldo - at 0.75 goals per game. But we clearly know that is not the case - this is an exception.
It's not an anomaly, it's a low sample size. Your bias really shows when you keep calling a good run "an exception".

If only there was a way to get an average that included the good and the bad...

You only need to look at the vast majority of the games rather than these outliers,
They're outliers to you, because he scored. The point of using an average is to get a ... well, average.

because his first 4 games are massively skewed in his favour.
Skewed in his favour as opposed to ... your bias of thinking he's shit/should be sold?

That fact that a good run happened early on, rather than in the middle or towards to end is irrelevant and can never be discarded in an average.

His average goals per game for the next 44 is .06. Massive difference.
Wrong, it's not an average when you're selective about what you include. It's only an average goals per games you felt you wanted to include, which is only a useful number for you and means diddly squat to anyone else.

Since James was a youngish player new to the league when we bought him, I think it's fine to look at his last season to get an idea of how productive he currently is:

-James rarely plays the full 90 minutes. This makes looking at his GA per appearance worthless. He has about 7 goals/assists in 1500 minutes this season. Which is one goal contribution every 217 minutes. A bit less than a goal every 3 games worth of minutes.

-James rarely gets a run of games. Even experienced players like Mata, Matic, Telles, Bailly struggle to perform when they haven't played in a while. Let alone younger players like James or Van de Beek. James only had one real run of games from February 'till April. During that run he made 3 goals an had an assist.

You cannot use an unrepresentative stat for a squad player, say goals per appearances, then take out a selection of games because it pleases you (to make James' contribution as small as possible)

What you're doing is the equivalent of excluding January to show how hot the average temperature in a year is.


I think there's a big difference in how we perceive players.
I think he isn't good enough and should be sold for a good fee. You think he has 0.06 goals per game and might as well be replaced by a bucket of cow dung.

Massive difference, agreed.
 

Luke1995

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I'd certainly expect Sancho to be playing at least a level above James even if he doesn't adapt well.

We have 4-5 players that are ahead of James in the pecking order, we'd be stupid having a £20m player in the squad as backup of a backup.
One thing that does count for James is his good work-rate. I think he can still be useful in certain games, specially as a second half substitute

But seems like the Cafe has reached a unanimous opinion on this one. If he does get sold, then I just hope the club makes good use of the money.
 

-Supreme-

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One thing that does count for James is his good work-rate. I think he can still be useful in certain games, specially as a second half substitute

But seems like the Cafe has reached a unanimous opinion on this one. If he does get sold, then I just hope the club makes good use of the money.
Work rate alone should never warrant a place in the squad, the players should be expected to work hard particularly for teams challenging for major silverware, if you look at City and Liverpool their attacking players offer so much more in comparison when not in possession.
 
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I’d say yes, sell James for £20-£30m. We have options for the right and left. Amad needs minutes to develop, and can play right or left.
 

sincher

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Whatever the stats, he doesn't look good enough really. I like him, he is wholehearted and he has some obvious attributes as a player, but we have bigger talents at the club. I would hope we would sell if we got a decent bid. It would probably be better for him too. I can't see him playing much if Sancho, Rashford, Martial and Greenwood are mostly fit next season... and there is Amad too of course.
 

Dve

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Sell. He´s a decent player, but not MU material. He won´t be playing much anyway, so what´s the point for him staying.
 

jeff gurr

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I’d say yes, sell James for £20-£30m. We have options for the right and left. Amad needs minutes to develop, and can play right or left.
Maybe I'm a poor judge of talent but I really don't see James in the 20-30 mil range. He really hasn't shown that much other than energy & enthusiasm & would be surprised to see any club pay 15 for him. I will qualify this by saying I've been wrong before.
 

kidbob

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Maybe I'm a poor judge of talent but I really don't see James in the 20-30 mil range. He really hasn't shown that much other than energy & enthusiasm & would be surprised to see any club pay 15 for him. I will qualify this by saying I've been wrong before.
I mean he is a decent player who plays alright for Wales and Man Utd. Liverpool have sold players for fees in that range that haven't shown anywhere near to what James has. At the end of the day he is still at least PL level and his attributes would be an asset for a side down the League. So I don't see 20m as being unreasonable.
 

Luke1995

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Work rate alone should never warrant a place in the squad, the players should be expected to work hard particularly for teams challenging for major silverware, if you look at City and Liverpool their attacking players offer so much more in comparison when not in possession.
I agree but most of the top talent is at other big clubs and the few who are at medium/smaller clubs are hard to buy these days.

So it's entirely possible if James goes, he would be replaced with another unproven young player from the championship. They cost less than those who have been scouted since they were kids.
 

Ali Dia

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The Dunning-Kruger effect.



So by your logic, if a player doesn't score in the majority of his appearances, the games were he did score are exceptions and the games where he didn't are "the majority of incidents" So we can selectively leave out up to 49% of games in an average?

If you were neutral towards James, you would take all his games and goals into consideration.



Sure. I never argued to the contrary.



I get it, you don't like James and took out some of games where he scored to make the stats look worse.



It's not an anomaly, it's a low sample size. Your bias really shows when you keep calling a good run "an exception".

If only there was a way to get an average that included the good and the bad...



They're outliers to you, because he scored. The point of using an average is to get a ... well, average.



Skewed in his favour as opposed to ... your bias of thinking he's shit/should be sold?

That fact that a good run happened early on, rather than in the middle or towards to end is irrelevant and can never be discarded in an average.



Wrong, it's not an average when you're selective about what you include. It's only an average goals per games you felt you wanted to include, which is only a useful number for you and means diddly squat to anyone else.

Since James was a youngish player new to the league when we bought him, I think it's fine to look at his last season to get an idea of how productive he currently is:

-James rarely plays the full 90 minutes. This makes looking at his GA per appearance worthless. He has about 7 goals/assists in 1500 minutes this season. Which is one goal contribution every 217 minutes. A bit less than a goal every 3 games worth of minutes.

-James rarely gets a run of games. Even experienced players like Mata, Matic, Telles, Bailly struggle to perform when they haven't played in a while. Let alone younger players like James or Van de Beek. James only had one real run of games from February 'till April. During that run he made 3 goals an had an assist.

You cannot use an unrepresentative stat for a squad player, say goals per appearances, then take out a selection of games because it pleases you (to make James' contribution as small as possible)

What you're doing is the equivalent of excluding January to show how hot the average temperature in a year is.




I think he isn't good enough and should be sold for a good fee. You think he has 0.06 goals per game and might as well be replaced by a bucket of cow dung.

Massive difference, agreed.
I would like to “like” this post
 

krentz

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Maybe I'm a poor judge of talent but I really don't see James in the 20-30 mil range. He really hasn't shown that much other than energy & enthusiasm & would be surprised to see any club pay 15 for him. I will qualify this by saying I've been wrong before.
You'd be suprised of how good he'd look like against teams who dont sit deep where he would get plenty of space to exploit with his pace.
 

NinjaZombie

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We ran Rashford to the ground the past 3 seasons so I would rather have James in the squad as cover. Amad needs games, not too be sitting on the bench waiting for minutes. James is the one more suited for cover. He can play either on the left or on the right, and his level is such that he can be a useful guy to have as an impact sub, a tactical option in the bigger game or as a starter against the smaller teams.

If Rashford goes for surgery, and he should go in my opinion, then we'll need cover for the front three so we don't repeat the same mistake we did with Rashford and run Sancho and Greenwood to the ground.

I want Ole to trust his bench more next season, and given he brought James to the club, I'm hoping that's the case here.
 

krentz

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We ran Rashford to the ground the past 3 seasons so I would rather have James in the squad as cover. Amad needs games, not too be sitting on the bench waiting for minutes. James is the one more suited for cover. He can play either on the left or on the right, and his level is such that he can be a useful guy to have as an impact sub, a tactical option in the bigger game or as a starter against the smaller teams.

If Rashford goes for surgery, and he should go in my opinion, then we'll need cover for the front three so we don't repeat the same mistake we did with Rashford and run Sancho and Greenwood to the ground.

I want Ole to trust his bench more next season, and given he brought James to the club, I'm hoping that's the case here.
We ran Rashford to the ground with James in the squad as cover.
 

UNITED ACADEMY

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ST: Cavani Martial Greenwood
LW: Rashford Martial Sancho
RW: Sancho Amad Greenwood

We have at least 6 players to cover 3 positions. And then add Elanga, we will have 7. Selling James probably wouldn't hurt our squad depth. If anything we have improved our depth quality in attack by signing Sancho and we can also give more game time to Amad if we sell James.
 

hobbers

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Sell Lingard and James for decent fees, put that money towards Trippier/Aarons and Ings. Common sense squad management.

Sancho and Amad on the right. Rashford and Martial on the left. Cavani and Ings up front. Greenwood can play all 3 positions. Pogba and Mata can also fill in at LW and RW.

If we need more cover for our front 3 it's for Cavani, not for the wide players.
 

Raredaredevil

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I forgot he existed for us. He is a squad player for us at best now. Can't see him having any significant impact for us. Definitely sell him.
 

gorky_utd

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Sell him.

Lw Martial, Rashford
Rw Sancho, Amad
St Cavani, Greenwood
Cam Bruno, Vdb

I see no place for him. He had a decent Euro, so getting 15-20m should not be difficult.
 

NoPace

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I like him as a backup LW, but I'm not sure we need one with that possibly being Sancho's best position for all we can predict, and Amad and Greenwood promising options on the right. We could probably use the 18M or so I'd expect.
 

devilish

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James is suited to counter attack football. That's were his pace is devastating. United are rarely in that situation. Should we sell him? Well it depends. Are we sending Diallo on loan? Are we selling Martial? If the answer to both is no then I'd say we should sell. If not then we'll need backup players for Rashford and Jadon.
 

NewGlory

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James has already had 2 seasons with us, and I don't think his improvement has been satisfactory. He's hardly had a total of 10 games in the past 2 seasons where he's actually done well. He's also 23 (turning 24), the same age as Rashford - and he's miles away from the expected level. He needs to improve massively if he's to hold a place on the bench let alone the XI.

And after Sancho, I feel our squad is well-stocked in the RW area. We have Sancho, Amad, Greenwood, and Pellistri all vying for that 1 spot. I just don't see James getting much game time this season tbh.

I'd rather we sell him this summer while we can still get a decent fee for him.
Buying Sancho, having Greenwood, there is absolutely no place for Dan James in our squad. The answer is a definite "yes".
 

NewGlory

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James is suited to counter attack football. That's were his pace is devastating. United are rarely in that situation. Should we sell him? Well it depends. Are we sending Diallo on loan? Are we selling Martial? If the answer to both is no then I'd say we should sell. If not then we'll need backup players for Rashford and Jadon.
We have Greenwood and Amad, who can both be 10x better right wingers (i.e. backups for Jadon) than Dan James has been past two years.

Dan was fantastic first several months after joining us. I honestly looking forward to our games mostly to enjoy watching his play. He was sensational. But that was long ago and we haven't seen any of that ever since. I don't know what happened to that guy but it is sad, and the reality is - club comes first. He is not delivering, therefore he needs to move on.
 

Murray3007

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cant seem him getting much game time, far to limited, if we get a decent offer then should let him go.
 

devilish

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We have Greenwood and Amad, who can both be 10x better right wingers (i.e. backups for Jadon) than Dan James has been past two years.

Dan was fantastic first several months after joining us. I honestly looking forward to our games mostly to enjoy watching his play. He was sensational. But that was long ago and we haven't seen any of that ever since. I don't know what happened to that guy but it is sad, and the reality is - club comes first. He is not delivering, therefore he needs to move on.
Please reread my post. I said if Amad is send on loan or Martial is sold then we should keep him. Ultimately we need 2 players per role. Rashy and martial on the left, Jadon, Amad/Lingard/James on the right, Cavani and Greenwood upfront. Considering that Rashy will probably need an operation I'd say that we should keep 1 extra player up until Rashy is back
 

CG1010

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No. He, unlike Martial, would be ok in playing a backup role. We need such players.
 

Lewnited

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I can't say I understand the benefit in keeping him. With Sancho and Greenwood being options on the right he's third choice at best, and that's before taking Mata in to consideration who still offers better link up play from the same position.

We're not harming the team by taking out a 'useful squad player', we're simply removing a player who would only play 10-15 low risk games throughout the season... just give those same games to Diallo who's potential is very much unknown right now. James is a known quantity, over two years he's demonstrated countless performances that aren't at the required level.

If we can make a profit and get £20-£25m it would make a lot of sense. Particularly if that fee can be the difference between getting a top quality defender like Varane and settling for less.
 

NewGlory

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Please reread my post. I said if Amad is send on loan or Martial is sold then we should keep him. Ultimately we need 2 players per role. Rashy and martial on the left, Jadon, Amad/Lingard/James on the right, Cavani and Greenwood upfront. Considering that Rashy will probably need an operation I'd say that we should keep 1 extra player up until Rashy is back
Fair enough, but it feels crazy to loan out Amad, and keep James, if we have genuine aspirations for trophies. Just my 2c.

.
 

VanDeBank

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Fair enough, but it feels crazy to loan out Amad, and keep James, if we have genuine aspirations for trophies. Just my 2c.

.
There's a scenario where Cavani remains fit 'till Rashford's return and then Rashford, Greenwood, Sancho stay fit 'for most of the season. Then there's the possibility of Pogba being played on the wing and Martial kicking on again. Whether we end up selling James or loaning out Amad, the one that's staying could end up starting some early cup games and barely feature at all. He would have a Mata/VDB/Matic/Tuanzebe type backup role.

I'd rather have Amad come back as serious competition after playing 5000 minutes elsewhere. '22-23 could see some big changes with Greenwood moved to CF and Cavani/Martial/Pogba possibly leaving. A good loan makes the most sense, unless we end up selling both Martial and James.

James' is adequate for that back up role. He works hard, his pace is a threat and he pops up with a goal every 300 minutes on average. We'll still have some lads from the academy, but in James' we'll have a reliable option.
 

Mcking

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All the 17 teams who remain from the last Premier League season has a left-winger who is at least as good or comfortably better. Signing him from Swansea was a waste of a transfer, and selling or keeping him doesn't change anything.
 

FromTheBench

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I'd sell him for a profit easily.

Him and lingard both we should sell by now if we get decent offers
 

DRJosh

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I think he still has a role to play. Sancho won’t be an immediate success in my opinion and Daniel James’ work rate will always be his strongest asset apart from pace. Amad is still developing and Martial isn’t consistent by any stretch of the imagination
 

Gator Nate

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Think it has paid off already. He costed us £18m and has played many games = value for money. If we at some point are able to sell him for £20-30m, it has really paid off.
Yeah, I don't get the logic used by those who think he was a bad deal. He was a bargain. He wasn't brought in to do the job of a starter, but had to do it anyway. And he has been useful as a sub and as a one-off starter.

If we can sell him for a good price (20mil+ is not unreasonable), it would be good for us and him. He's never going to be a consistent starter for United and he could be elsewhere. We'll get more than what we paid, he is a better product than when we took him.

On the other hand, I love his attitude, his work rate, and even his contribution, and keeping him around would not hurt. Our forwards get injured. At the right time, we might find we need him there again. He's not going to get nervous if thrust into the role.
 
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