The first few points of yours can be somewhat used against Messi too. And regarding the last bit, it depends who do you see as GOAT candidate. For example, in the past Di Stefano was widely regarded as GOAT candidate who hasn’t been shinning in any international tournament. Beckenbauer also hasn’t been POTT. And officially speaking, Pele hasn’t won one as golden ball wasn’t there until 1982, although people widely would give it to Pele in 1970 (some might disagree), but it’s not official.
Who has had the better international career? Messi or Ronaldo?
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It's hilarious really. Ronaldo went off with an injury, completely out of his control, yet it's held against him. Messi actually played the entire game and contributed diddly squat in the final and somehow that makes him better. Bizarre.
I would say both are more or less equal but that Cristiano has the edge.
I don't think the Copa is really comparable to the Euros because without a shadow of a doubt, South Americans prize World Cup qualification over anything else. CONMEBOL qualification is actually more intense than Copa games, and probably, on average, throws up more surprises.
First of all, there's no qualification for the Copa, as everyone knows. The smaller teams see it as more of a free hit and as a result don't tend to apply themselves as much as they would for a qualifier. The group games this year were farcical with sides advancing to the quarters by virtue of not finishing bottom of the group. There's also a game less than the Euros.
The big games outside of the World Cup are the eliminatorias without a shadow of a doubt. Those games are fecking intense and the atmosphere in the stadiums can be electric. Playing the likes of Bolivia and Ecuador away can be tough due to the altitude in La Paz and Quito. The only sides that I don't think have ever qualified for the World Cup are Bolivia and Venezuela, so pretty much everyone is in with a shot.
The calendar for the eliminatorias is also much larger than World Cup qualification in Europe so it goes on around the Copa. That makes the Copa itself seem like a distraction for mid-ranking sides who feel like they have an outside chance of making the World Cup but not a hope of winning the Copa.
I don't think the Copa is really comparable to the Euros because without a shadow of a doubt, South Americans prize World Cup qualification over anything else. CONMEBOL qualification is actually more intense than Copa games, and probably, on average, throws up more surprises.
First of all, there's no qualification for the Copa, as everyone knows. The smaller teams see it as more of a free hit and as a result don't tend to apply themselves as much as they would for a qualifier. The group games this year were farcical with sides advancing to the quarters by virtue of not finishing bottom of the group. There's also a game less than the Euros.
The big games outside of the World Cup are the eliminatorias without a shadow of a doubt. Those games are fecking intense and the atmosphere in the stadiums can be electric. Playing the likes of Bolivia and Ecuador away can be tough due to the altitude in La Paz and Quito. The only sides that I don't think have ever qualified for the World Cup are Bolivia and Venezuela, so pretty much everyone is in with a shot.
The calendar for the eliminatorias is also much larger than World Cup qualification in Europe so it goes on around the Copa. That makes the Copa itself seem like a distraction for mid-ranking sides who feel like they have an outside chance of making the World Cup but not a hope of winning the Copa.
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He has a very bad game, miss a sitter and contribute nothing to win the Copa final. Argentina winning goal and the defensive work has nothing to do with him at all. It is his teammates who won the game for him. People explained he was injured hence didn’t play well in the final. This makes no difference to Ronaldo being injured by the opponents in the Euro final actually, in terms of their contribution in the final game, there’s no difference.
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You do realize what "seldom" means?This is funny. So when Portugal qualified for Euro 2000 and WC 2002 without Ronaldo, how did that happen?
Obviously that was the beginning of a new period for them, led by other actual great players that Portugal had like Figo. Ronaldo was part of that, not the beginning and end
Also, if Ronaldo had actually performed better in international tournaments then it might not be a debate. But he hasn’t, so it is.
In 2014 WC (in Brazil), South American teams played 13 games against European teams winning 9 times and losing 4. South American teams scored 18 goals and conceded 18 goals (including a total of 10 goals conceded by Brazil against Germany in SF & Holland in the third place game). Teams like Italy, England, Spain, Portugal, Croatia could not even go beyond the group stage being left behind both SA teams like Uruguay (has beaten both Italy & England), Chile (has beaten Spain) and NA/CA teams like Costa Rica (topped the group against Italy/England), USA, Mexico. Argentina played a superior Germany team in the final (probably the best German team of the last 20 years, a team that destroyed Brazil 7-1 in Brazil and Ronaldo's Portugal 4-0) where Argentina was the better side in my view..
In 2015 & 2016 Argentina played two finals in Copa against Chile and lost both in penalties.
In 2018 WC (in Russia), South American teams played against European teams 11 times winning 4 and losing 7. Both SA teams and European teams scored a total of 15 goals.
During that 4-year period, Portugal failed to qualify for the 2nd round in WC'14 being left behind USA. In 2017, lost to Chile in Federations Cup. In 2018 WC lost to Uruguay. Based on what you wrote above about SA teams, it seems like Portugal with Ronaldo has been "a bit shit and irrelevant" during that period, and when it faced American teams, it would always go back to Portugal, probably to Algarve. Yet, even that Portugal was able to win the EC giving us an idea on the overall quality of that EC tournament in 2016.
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Likewise, using your logic, one can easily say since Ronaldo was non-existent in 2014, 2016, 2018 CL finals, he contributed nothing, was bailed out by Ramos, Bale, Karius and co. It is his teammates who won those CL finals for him, right? I can easily see Real winning those finals without him seeing his laughable “contribution” in those games…hypocrisy..
Messi is comfortably a better player than Ronaldo in both CL finals and international finals at NT level. His best WC performance>>>Ronaldo’s best WC performance and his best Copa performance>>> Ronaldo’s best Euro performance. That explains why he got 3 best player awards in both WC & Copa while Ronaldo got a big "0".
His performance in the last COPA is among the most impressive being a leader in multiple categories including goals & assists something which has not happened in the tournament’s long history before. That's something Ronaldo can only dream of as he is a pure goal-scorer. You guys also always seem to forget while Ronaldo is an elite pure goalscorer, Messi is an elite playmaker + elite goalscorer. Only one can be compared to the geniuses like Ronaldinho, Zidane, Maradona, Cruyff, Xavi, Rivaldo etc. as only one of them is an elite creator. His contribution goes way beyond goals. That's also why one is way more enjoyable to watch than the other.
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It was a good trophy with many good teams back then. Nowadays it is League of Nations B.
Yes, which is why few people will ever argue that Neymar had a remarkable international career, or even a particularly successful one, compared to his many Brazilian peers.
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This is why it helps to actually watch the games. Messi typically plays in a much more withdrawn role for Argentina because they don’t have much in the way of competent midfielders. Also football is about much more than goals and assists. Even having said that, Messi’s G+A tally in the KO rounds of major international tournaments v CR’s is 21-5.
Please though, continue……
Total rubbish as usual. Neymar has been great for Brazil in an era where they’ve had slim pickings in terms of creative support. I’m sure he’d have loved to play with some of the greats of the past but he didn’t have that privilege. Zico didn’t win the WC or CA but he was still great for Brazil. Try and watch football with your eyes
Well I didn’t bring this up, someone else from Messi camp does, I am just borrowing their logic where they think Ronaldo didn’t contribute in winning Euro, just to point out their hyprocisy/double standard, so your accusation should be aimed at them instead.
Also, Messi performance in this year Copa is somewhat overrrated by some of you and inflated from his performance against cannon folders. Not saying it’s not great, but majority of his goals and assists, and his best performances in Copa are from games against Bolivia and Ecuador, whereas the toughest game against toughest opponents Brazil, he totally went disappeared. Given the context, It’s nothing as significance in history as much as you’ve made out to be. But of course, stats are stats and you can still celebrated those in whatever manner you want, just like how we celebrate Ronaldo golden boot in Euro 20 or his Euro 16 glory. But please don’t make it sound like it’s something out of extraordinary and incomparable in historical manner. But even he wasn’t as great as you’ve made out to be at international stage, he is still a GOAT to me.
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Ok, but what you 'think' is pretty irrelevant when looking at the facts.
Since the 1990s, 5 teams have won the Copa. Brazil (5), Argentina (3), Chile (2), Uruguay (2) and Colombia (1). There's been 13 Copa competitions(!).
In the same timeframe for the Euros, there's only been 8 competitions, with 7 different winners (Spain being the only team to win it twice in this period). The Euros is clearly a step above in terms of level of competition and prestige of competition.
Don't let your weird love of Messi blind you from at least trying to look at this objectively.
Again, your thoughts are pretty irrelevant. They may have had 'strong teams' (which is debateable), but Argentina have always had strong teams, and have always been in one of the two favourites for the Copas. Out of the 13 Copas since 1991, they've appeared in 7(!!!) finals. Brazil have appeared in 8 finals.
Let's see how many times Chile, Colombia and Uruguay have appeared shall we.
Since 1991, Chile have appeared in 2 finals.
Since 1991, Colombia have appeared in 1 final.
Since 1991, Uruguay have appeared in 3 finals.
Really strong teams aren't they! Even in their combined final appearance, they're still one short of Argentina's total final appearance in the timeframe.
Bottling is for teams that are generally the favourites but can't quite get over the line. Argentina have done this in spades in the Copas.
Brasil and Argentina are obligated to make the final yet it's only happened 4 times in over 100 years and out of 22 finals.
Even if we disregard Copa, Messi still has a player of the tournament and far more MOTM awards in the World Cup. What is there to argue?
Tell me what they did when they played in KO.
I don’t care about group stage, all the decent teams pass it.
For me, it's Messi but both are not up to the level of other greats, no matter what way fans of the players like to spin it.
Eh?
The only finals that haven't included Brazil or Argentina since 1989 are the 2001 and 2011 Copa finals.
That's because they were. Messi himself looked embarassed to get the award. It's not that he wasn't good, it's just he wasn't the best.I don't know, but I read that someone here claims that James and Robben were better than Messi in 2014 WC. I think I can die now cause I've seen it all.
The first few points cannot be used against Messi though. There’s quite a few players that I would say have had better international careers than Messi but CR is definitely not one of them.
Which points are you referring to? I said CR missed the final and wasn’t POTT. Messi has played in his finals and been POTT 3 times. In fact Messi has been POTT in every international tournament he’s ever taken part in, including the Olympics and the U20 World Cup. This suggests that his performances have been better in tournament play than Ronaldo’s, as R has never been POTT in any competition he’s ever taken part in, and he’s taken part in a LOT of them.
Re the GOAT candidates, Franz Beckenbauer is a defender, so that’s always going to count against him. Cruyff was always going to be given the edge for his performances. DiStefano had a weird international career and never played at a World Cup.
Pele was clearly the supreme player in 1970 (was also the best player at the CA in 1959 and best young player in WC 58). People who go ‘oh Muller or Jairzinho scored more goals’ are just dumb, frankly. Lineker scored more goals than Maradona at WC 86, was Lineker better?
It is true that the award (at least in the WC) was only officially given since 1982, but the retrospective awards reflect the prevailing attitudes about the superior player of each tournament. Even in more modern times (if you want to stick to that), you have Diego in 1986, L. Ronaldo in 98 (and in the Copa), Romario in 94, Zidane in 2006 and Euro 2000, Van Basten in 88, Platini in 84, etc etc.
Brasil vs. Argentina finals, obviously.
It's funny that these threads always descend into abstract arguments about the strength of competitions and teammates but seldom do people just evaluate who actually played better. Both have been underwhelming but Messi has been better. He's been player of the tournament 3 times, Ronaldo hasn't.
I imagined you meant every type of international tournament he's taken part in because he obviously hasn't been POTT in every international tournament he's been in.
Yes, there are less countries in South America. Try not to be too mired in your Eurocentrism.
The ‘facts’ you’ve presented also require contextual analysis. And why is the Euros a level above in terms of prestige? FIFA recognises them as the same level. Only the World Cup is higher in prestige.
Let me ask you a question. Do you actually watch the Copa America? It’s pretty obvious that the answer is ‘no’
I always look at Messi objectively which is why I’ve often said that Pele and Maradona may be better players than him. Now can you do the same with your weird obsession with Ronaldo’s abs?
None of this suggests that it is easy to win. And we’re not talking about since 1990 because Messi and Ronaldo were toddlers then. They are the point of this discussion in case you’d forgotten.
Well done for spending hours counting out which teams appeared when on Wikipedia though.
‘Bottling’ is a term used by simple minded children who have no idea about the level of competition and pressures associated with top level sport.
Yes, every format obviously
This is funny, did you read my message?
Let me repeat, in 2014 WC, Spain, Italy, England, Ronaldo's Portugal, and Croatia all failed to pass the group stage losing against their supposedly "weak" American rivals, see below.
Spain lost to Chile and failed to pass the group stage.
England & Italy lost to Uruguay in a group topped by a Central American team, Costa-Rica and failed to pass the group stage.
Ronaldo's Portugal was left behind a North American team, USA and could not qualify.
Croatia was left behind another North American team, Mexico, and could not qualify.
Another Euro giant, EC 2016 finalist, France could only draw with mighty Ecuador in the group stage.
In the KO rounds, Argentina eliminated Switzerland, Belgium, and Holland. Argentina and Brazil both lost to Germany, the winner of the WC.
In total, South American sides played 13 games against their Euro rivals, won 9 and lost 4 (by the way I am not counting North American/Central American teams' wins/losses, only South American teams wins & losses).
Since you said, "all decent teams pass it", pass the group stage, that would mean Spain, Italy, England, Ronaldo's Portugal, Croatia were not decent sides. Then what makes you think Euro is better than Copa in 2016?? especially considering the other fact that other top European sides like Holland, Switzerland, and Belgium were eliminated by Argentina, a SA side & EC 2016 finalist France could only draw with mighty Ecuador in the group stage.
So, in WC 2014, the EC 2012 finalists, Spain and Italy were eliminated in the group stage losing against teams like Costa Rica, Uruguay, Chile.
EC 2016 finalist, Portugal cannot even go beyond the group stage losing to mighty USA.
Other EC 2016 finalist, France could only draw with Ecuador.
Overall, it is weird how well European teams fared against these "irrelevant" "weak" SA rivals, isn't it?
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Well it’s a totally banal point that it has to be Argentina playing Brazil in the final to be honest. If they're by far the top 2 teams, then they could easily play each other in an earlier round. The fact that both appear in pretty much every final bar 2 since the 1990s shows there's a sizeable gap with them and the rest.
Still 4 finals between them. And there were 2 finals between Argentina and Chile in the last 5 years.
In Euros, there has never been a final between the two same teams. Maybe cause it is a far more difficult tournament. Food for thought!
Thanks for proving my second point @Revan and @The Corinthian
This thread might as well be a Copa vs. Euro thread. Give it a few pages it will be Eder vs. Higuain. Seldom do people compare the actual ability or performances of Messi and Ronaldo. They've played against each other countless of times and I can't remember watching a game and thinking Ronaldo looked like a better player than Messi, even back when Ronaldo was in his prime for us and Messi was still a bit raw. Deep down everyone who has watched a lot of both knows which one is the better player if they are honest with themselves.
This thread might as well be a Copa vs. Euro thread. Give it a few pages it will be Eder vs. Higuain. Seldom do people compare the actual ability or performances of Messi and Ronaldo. They've played against each other countless of times and I can't remember watching a game and thinking Ronaldo looked like a better player than Messi, even back when Ronaldo was in his prime for us and Messi was still a bit raw. Deep down everyone who has watched a lot of both knows which one is the better player if they are honest with themselves.
You proved your own point by making a point about Brazil vs Argentina in Copa finals.
If you're Argentina and you're in a tournament that -
a) has less countries
b) where 4 out of 5 teams per group go through to the next round
c) where you are one of the 2 'top' teams
d) the majority of the other countries in the competition don't even make the top 30 in FIFA rankings
e) is played more frequently than comparable competitions
is it easier or harder to win if you're Argentina?
If you answer it's easier to win, then you can understand why I would place the Euros as a competition that's harder to win. I'd say the Euros is more prestigious as well as it's held every 4 years.
If you answer it's harder, then you're just deluded and your posts are ill-informed and illogical.
Sure mate.
The reason I went to the 90s was just to hammer the point home that Brazil & Argentina getting to a final is as routine as it comes in this competition (seriously, how are you still not getting that). If I went even further back (before the 90s), it'd illustrate my point even further, but I thought you'd get it by now. So yea, it's definitely easier to win if you're Brazil or Argentina. More so than the other Copa nations, as well as any Euro nation in the Euros. To think otherwise is just plain stupidity.
Bottling is a great term, and I can see it's really rattled you.
Those European teams were a bit shit in that competition. Europe still managed to have 3 out of 4 semi-finalists, and a European team won the competition. 4 years prior, Europe managed to send 3 semi-finalists, and both finalists. 4 years later, all four semi-finalists were from Europe. Oh, the same happened in 2006.
The last time some American team won any of the three medals, it was in 2002. I posted yesterday all the matches between European and American teams, in KO it was not even close. It was a total domination of European teams, essentially they destroyed American teams.
Does Europe have shit teams? Of course they do, I come from one country who has a shit team. Are there shit European teams in Euros and World Cups? Of course there are. But the best European teams (in the period of time where Messi and Ronaldo play) have happened to be significantly better than American ones, to the point that American teams (with the exception of Argentina in 2014) have been a total non-entity. Their campaign always ended the first time they faced a European team in KO. I guess I have to repeat it, no South American team, except Argentina in 2014 (where they defeated Switzerland 1-0 with a goal in 118th minute, Belgium 1-0 and Netherlands in penalties) has won a KO tie vs an European team, in the time where Messi and Ronaldo play in WCs.
If that does not prove that European teams are miles better, I do not know what proves it. Maybe you will get convinced when you see again four semi-finalists from Europe and Brazil/Argentina getting out of the competition when they face a European team next year.
Not the same player at all.
I don’t mean together, I’m Saying one or the other.
At least one of them will be in the final. Look at the level of competition….
They are clutching at straws.
South Americans team have been far weaker then European teams for almost 20 years now. The quality is just not there in the Copa America.
The euro is the second biggest international competition in the world after the World Cup for a reason.
As you said, 3 of 4 semi finalist were European and then all of those teams will be in the euro along with other traditionally strong teams.
What I mean is, there are some similarities in the logic behind your original points which could also be used against Messi too, such as:
1. Ronaldo missing 75% of Euro final -> Messi “disappearing” in large part of Copa final. Given that Messi is tournament best player, Ronaldo is not quite the best in tournament but he is still the most impactful player in the winning team.
2. Goals only comes from group stage for Ronaldo in Euro 20 -> Well first of all Messi only scored against Bolivia and Ecuador in knockout stage in Copa 20, so it’s actually far lower standard knockout stage game than group games Ronaldo had. Secondly the best tournament Messi ever had in WC, he didn’t score a single goal in knockout stage either. In fact he never ever score a goal in knockout stage in WC.
3. Ronaldo scored most goals in Euro history but he had played more Euro games/tournaments than Platini -> Messi only managed to rank 7th most goals in Copa history despite playing over 6 tournaments, where he has played more Copa games than anyone.
I mean, if you continue to use those standards to judge against Ronaldo, it would just all go back against Messi too. I’d rather avoid those if I were you, and would go back to the dribbling/playmaking arguments instead.
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You seem to be confused. This is not the Messi vs. Ronaldo thread. This is the "who has had the better international career" thread. It is possible for a player to have a better international career than another player yet be the lesser player. Robert Lewandowski is a much better player than Eder, but the latter scored a winning goal in the Euros and the former hasn't had a sniff at an international title. I don't have any issue saying that Messi is a better player than Ronaldo overall because it really has nothing to do with the question of who's had the better international career. There are literally hundreds of players with better international careers than Messi and Ronaldo.
I was just checking some Copa America numbers. Argentina played 25 Copa America finals before Messi ever burst onto the scene. Are people still arguing that him getting them there is a magnificent achievement beyond mere mortals?
And yet they’ve won it 3 times in 60 years. With players like Maradona, Kempes and Messi. Don’t kid yourself bud, I know way more about the history of that competition and SA football generally than you do.
And I don’t need to trawl through Wikipedia and count the number of times teams appear in finals (when there’s less teams anyway) just to make a non-contextual point. You see, I actually watch football with my eyes. That’s why I know it’s a tough competition with rabid fan bases and winning it is prestigious. You clearly don’t and rely on the internet. It’s pretty clear that you’re clueless about the tournament as a whole. You’ve listed ‘4 out of 5 teams getting to the next round’ as if that’s the rule in every Copa.
Then you’ve talked about rankings, which are BS and change all the time. Right now Portugal are ranked higher than Italy. Are they a better team than Italy? Are Mexico better than Germany? You’re truly clueless
Good comeback. Zing!
By the way, who do you think is the greatest player of all time?
Rattled
Hey if you wanna sound like a braindead kid, that’s on you. I’m not remotely bothered.
What’s stupid is that you are passing judgment on a tournament you don’t even watch just to make out that a competition that has been won by Greece is far superior. If you watched it, you’d maybe understand more.
We are losing the point of the discussion. The point is the notion that Ronaldo achieved more in winning the Euros with Portugal than Messi did in winning the Copa with Argentina. That is false, because. a) Portugal didn’t play anyone good until the final and Ronaldo missed most of that game and
b) Messi was much better individually in his tournament than Ronaldo was in his.
So all your counting of teams on Wikipedia is irrelevant because Portugal did not have to play good teams when they won. Contrast that with Greece, who are surely the worst team to ever win either of the competitions and the road they had to go through to win in 2004.
How about you try and address that?
How many World Cup finals? Cos you know, he’s got to one of those as well
Well as Messi cannot become European, I guess we’ll just have to compare them in the World Cup…..oh wait! You mean Messi’s been better in that as well? What a surprise.