I get what you are saying and I’ve stated that neither can be said to have done as well as they have at club level. But what you’ve highlighted just shows why Messi has been better. When he doesn’t score, he contributes more to the overall game. That’s why his performances are better. I dissected Ronaldo’s goal record not to show that Messi’s is much better (it clearly isn’t) but rather because Ronaldo advocates generally don’t have any other arguments beside his goals. And yet he has 3 out of 109 in the KO rounds of major tournaments.
If you want to distil a whole career into just one moment or team achievements, then yeah Eder had a better career than Lewandowski. With that same logic though, you could say Macheda had a better premiership career than Gerrard or Pedro had a better La Liga career than Cristiano. A career is more nuanced to me and individually, Messi has performed better internationally than Ronaldo, just in the same way you would say that Cristiano has performed better than Pedro in La Liga.
But we are not talking about "whole" careers. We are talking about international football, which is one part of a player's career. Not only that, it's a part of a player's career that is generally understood to be largely outside the player's control, since you don't choose which country you were born in. Robert Lewandowski's had an unremarkable international career, and nobody expects it to be different, he plays in Poland.
That may be true for individual games, but in the long run the disparities in quality impose themselves. Argentina, Uruguay, and Brazil have been winners or runners-up 29, 21, and 21 times, which amounts to 75.5% of all finals appearances by anyone. If you look at who else has won it, half the time it's been the host country. One of those times, Colombia 2001, Argentina didn't even participate and Brazil sent a C-level team. Brazil have never failed to qualify to the World Cup and Argentina have failed to qualify just once.
Of course people are underestimating those things because they don’t watch SA teams or care about the comps at all because it’s all about England and then by extension Europe. Everything else is rubbish obviously.
Oh no, they've only won it 3 times in 60 years! A totally banal point but I'll parrot it to make it look like that they're underdogs and not the top or 2nd best team in the competition year in year out!
So I haven't made any point regarding performances in tournaments. You should read my posts again, without your Messi lens again because you're reading what you think I wrote, not actually what I wrote. I'd rank Portugal winning the Euros higher than Argentina winning the Copa as the Euros is a tougher competition, and Portugal are a weaker national side and have been for the majority of Ronaldo's career. I'd say maybe now or last couple of years you could argue the other way.
Greece to be fair to them won with a game plan and stuck to it. They won't be remembered fondly in history for their win, but fair fecks to them, the got the job done and I don't begrudge them that. Why would you?
Centennial was Conmebol being money-grabbing twats and they've carried on since. Should go back to every four years, bang in between World Cups.
Agree with the overall point but you are overlooking Uruguay knocking out Cristiano's Portugal (of all teams) at the last World Cup.
By whole career I meant whole international career. It appears your definition of international career is different to mine - your definition is basically who won more Portugal or Argentina (or Portugal/Poland). Do you apply this same criteria for Cruyff or Zico's international careers? Did Karol Dobias have a better international career than Cruyff because he scored the winning goal when the Czech Republic won the Euros?
Thanks - that wasn’t my post btw, I was copy pasting another poster who did an excellent summation. He may have overlooked that.
It’s only a ‘banal’ point to you because it destroys your ridiculous blinkered argument that the competition is easy to win. You can’t handle that so you throw your toys out the pram. There’s no need to cry about it.
It’s backed up by perfect logic and reason. They don’t win it often in living memory, ergo it is not easy for them to win it. Very straightforward logic.
Yes I don’t, because I’m not
Ok, if you can point to where I was ‘parroting the FIFA rankings not long ago’, you win the debate. If not, you lose. I won’t hold my breath.
It’s a rule that was instituted for this year. So it’s dumb to accord it any kind of historical weight in trying to prove that the competition is weak.
So La Liga is weak now?
The sound of a man drowning
Teams achieve trophies. How would you rank Ronaldo’s performances in those Euros v Messi’s performances in the Copa (any of the ones where he was the best player)? That’s right, you didn’t actually watch any of the Copa games. My apologies.
We don’t, we have your opinion. Answer the question above re Portugal’s route in 2016 please.
Hilarious I don’t begrudge them anything. They’re just by far the weakest team to ever win either of the continental tournaments. So it’s not the Fort Knox that you think it is. The World Cup on the other hand is a different story.
My fault. I put it yesterday (when I listed all the matches), but forgot to put it today. Other than Argentina in 2014 (3 wins and 1 defeat) and Uruguay last time (1 win and 1 defeat), all other KO matches in the last 4 WCs have been won by European teams.
Once again.
that's fair, actually.
Ronaldo didn’t carry Portugal, Pepe was their best player in 2016. Even Ronaldo admits that. Ronaldo had 3 good games in the entire euro 2016.
I don't think any of us here is comparing them to certain past greats in that regard. Spain, France and Germany had their golden generations since Ronaldo & Messi emerged and peaked and both of them lost every key match against them. in general, I can't think of single case of either of them having a stormer and beating a heavily favored side. weak or strong competition, it's all the same to them as they lose every time to the same teams, with the next WC being the last chance for both to change that. I doubt anyone seriously compares them to Pele or Maradona. they've had good international careers and that's it.
Ronaldo was our best player. Pepe looked better because we played to his strengths, we lumped balls up to Ronaldo all tournament as an attacking strategy while he was surrounded by every opposing defender without a striker next to him. No player will look anywhere near his best in those circumstances.
In your mind yes, because you’re horribly biased.
Nani played and scored 3 of our 9 goals in Euro 2016. He was his usual inconsistent self but weirdly was very important defensively.
I mean he stayed in one league…the best team of all time from 08-14.In your mind yes, because you’re horribly biased.
‘Messi doesn’t have the mental make-up’
Well he somehow has the mental make up to have more trophies than Ronaldo for club, country and individually so who knows how much he would have won if he was actually mentally tough?
Saying stuff like that just exposes you for the worshipper that you are. With respect…..
Holy shit
You're just not getting it. If a team is routinely getting to the final of the competition over a prolonged period of time...like Argentina have in the Copa, what does that tell you about their relative strength and / or the strength of the opposition? Answer me that.
So FIFA rankings aren't important when it comes to Argentina, but are important when it comes to Portugal and the opposition they faced in the Euros? Makes total (non)sense and is a double standard (par for the course with your posts to be honest).
Again, you're missing the point. If 80% of the teams in the group stage qualify, then it's obviously an easy competition to progress to the next round. The fact that they did it now or 100 years ago really isn't the point I'm making.
No, this is called an analogy. It's used to compare one thing to another for the purpose of explanation and clarification.
I watched the Copas, and remembered quite distinctly Messi's lacklustre performance in the final, missing a crucial spot kick and then promptly retiring (and then subsequently coming out of retirement) because things weren't going his way.
You can only beat what's in front of you. Luck plays a massive role in these competitions. I also find it amusing you have such a low opinion on FIFA rankings. I wonder is it because it doesn't fit your bullshit narrative? I think so.
See above.
Cool.
‘Supports Sporting Club de Portugal’
welcome back, where the heck have you been?
So no pointing out where I was ‘banging on about FIFA rankings’ then? Didn’t think so. You lose. I wish I could say it’s been a challenge but I can’t because you’re pretty thick. With all due respect
‘Supports Sporting Club de Portugal’
It must be hard for you bro. To have one of yours that’s come along who is by common consensus only the SECOND best of a generation. Never mind. Maybe the next great player you have will be better
And right here ladies and gentlemen is a frustrated Messi fan, who is lost at words and resorting to personal insults. I'm not sure why you're so angry, surely they'll make copa america a twice a season competition soon? Messi can win it multiple times then!So no pointing out where I was ‘banging on about FIFA rankings’ then? Didn’t think so. You lose. I wish I could say it’s been a challenge but I can’t because you’re pretty thick. With all due respect
Oh and I asked you to use your brain and not spend ages looking up FIFA rankings but of course you are too stupid not to try and use a system that is based on the listed teams not actually playing eachother and posits that Mexico are a better team than Germany. It’s ‘science’…….
A smarter thing to do would be to look at the players that play for the respective teams and figure out which sides are better that way. But that’s too complicated for our friend here….
And there we have it. The tell-tale sign of when you can't actually fathom a logical response to an argument so you have to resort to insults.So no pointing out where I was ‘banging on about FIFA rankings’ then? Didn’t think so. You lose. I wish I could say it’s been a challenge but I can’t because you’re pretty thick. With all due respect
Oh and I asked you to use your brain and not spend ages looking up FIFA rankings but of course you are too stupid not to try and use a system that is based on the listed teams not actually playing eachother and posits that Mexico are a better team than Germany. It’s ‘science’…….
A smarter thing to do would be to look at the players that play for the respective teams and figure out which sides are better that way. But that’s too complicated for our friend here….
“The Copa teams may have a few standout players, but it's clear that the level of competition is a step above in the Euros. Only an idiot would argue otherwise (this is where you come in though).”
Brazil were big favourites over Argentina in fairness
I think the Messi acolytes (like our friend above) will try and convince us that plucky Argentina beating overwhelming favourites Bolivia in the final is better than anything any other team has done.
I haven’t checked the odds so I can’t comment, but my broader point was that going into every Copa, Brazil and Argentina are the overwhelming favourites for each tournament.
This is true
"big favorites"
Be honest.
