g = window.googletag || {}; googletag.cmd = googletag.cmd || []; window.googletag = googletag; googletag.cmd.push(function() { var interstitialSlot = googletag.defineOutOfPageSlot('/17085479/redcafe_gam_interstitial', googletag.enums.OutOfPageFormat.INTERSTITIAL); if (interstitialSlot) { interstitialSlot.addService(googletag.pubads()); } });

Oil club spending

stevoc

Full Member
Joined
Jun 11, 2011
Messages
20,821
On that logic then every penny you spend can be traced back to being saved from going bust as Newton Heath.
4 Businessmen invested £500 each to save Newton Heath from going under adjusted for inflation that's around £50,000 each in 2021.

So yeah £200,000 investment from 4 local businessmen is exactly the same thing as Russian Oligarch's and Gulf States pumping billions into football clubs. Isn't it?
 

duffer

Sensible and not a complete jerk like most oppo's
Scout
Joined
Jun 24, 2004
Messages
50,585
Location
Chelsea (the saviours of football) fan.
4 Businessmen invested £500 each to save Newton Heath from going under adjusted for inflation that's around £50,000 each in 2021.

So yeah £200,000 investment from 4 local businessmen is exactly the same thing as Russian Oligarch's and Gulf States pumping billions into football clubs. Isn't it?
Welcome to the sugar daddy club.
 

Gee Male

Full Member
Joined
Apr 10, 2009
Messages
4,322
On that logic then every penny you spend can be traced back to being saved from going bust as Newton Heath.
That's a serious stretch of my logic, but whatever makes you feel comfortable.
 

Zen86

Full Member
Joined
Jul 1, 2007
Messages
14,013
Location
Sunny Manc
Exactly..
It really is amazing that people think oil money has ‘upset the established’ or brought about better competition. It really really fecking hasn’t.
It's pretty mind-boggling really. It's a bit like complaining the House of Lords have too much power, so you vote in a dictator to balance things out.
 

Dancfc

Full Member
Joined
Oct 28, 2016
Messages
7,422
Supports
Chelsea
4 Businessmen invested £500 each to save Newton Heath from going under adjusted for inflation that's around £50,000 each in 2021.

So yeah £200,000 investment from 4 local businessmen is exactly the same thing as Russian Oligarch's and Gulf States pumping billions into football clubs. Isn't it?
And who exactly would have been footing the bill for transfers, general club costs and the players wages for the foreseeable future afterwards? Unless you're going to tell me you went from near liquidation to totally self sufficient at the click of a finger.
 

Botim

Full Member
Joined
Dec 29, 2017
Messages
663
Supports
Royal Antwerp FC
Disingenuous and crass post. He didn’t say an individual; he said nation State. And he’s 100% right. The government(s) should give them a deadline to feck off and stop inflating our sport grotesquely, distorting the competition and sportswashing their bad human rights record.
:lol: Where did you learn to read?

Surely the Premier League and the French league can decide among their members that all clubs in their leagues must be owned by individuals and not ones related to the ruling elite of an absolute monarchy or dictatorship.
 

Fox outside the box

Full Member
Joined
Mar 9, 2019
Messages
418
Total net spend:
Man City – £481.96million
Man Utd – £422.5million
Arsenal – £291.36million
Chelsea – £246.39million
Tottenham – £167.53million
Liverpool – £144.38million

This is Net spending of each clubs since 2017 to 2021, Man united are not far away from oil club for your information, to get a fair comparison.
Think this is slightly misleading though, seeing as City had made significant squad investments prior to this and so obviously required less each season. They pumped the money in at a point where a top prospect set you back 30-50 million, not 70-120.

Big parts of their investment came a few years before prices rocketed. They bought the likes of Silva, Aguero, Silva etc before players of that promise and calibre jumped to much more expensive prices. So they've been sprinkling in several 40-60 million players to supplement the squad rather than having to go and buy a first team player. Buying a Bernard Silva from Monaco to add to your squad is obviously going to cost less than someone such as Pogba, who was bought as an elite player to try and bridge the gap between the clubs.

Also, City buy and sell a LOT of players. Net spend is pretty misleading because they spent windows moving players on who hadn't taken off or they were replacing. These players were bought 2-3 seasons prior and so the incoming fees make the net spend look lower.

If a club like Burnley invested 300 million into their squad and then spent the following 5 years buying more and selling off 2-4 of the players they initially invested in each window then your going to see that net spend figure appear lower.

The real advantage a club like City has is that they can afford to do this. It isn't feasible for most clubs to turn players over this way because it's a gamble. If you look at the amount of arrivals and departures over the last 10 years then City's list is insane. When you buy squad players and then sell them at a loss a few years later, even if it's a loss it still helps balance the net spend.

So buying Otamendi for 40 million and selling him 4 years later for 13 would boost their net spend over the last 3 years but wouldn't account for the outlay of actually buying him. The period you've chosen would be boosted by his sale whilst not being negatively impacted by his purchase
Ok fair but how to we generate our money? Where do we get it from? We’re self sufficient.
I don't care where they get their money really, I don't really begrudge them spending, even if it is a bitter pill to swallow.

These figures are misleading though. Go and look at City's in and outs over the last decade and not only did they get lucky and build their spine before transfer prices shot up - ageuro, silva, even Sterling. Not a chance you're getting those players for even remotely close to what they cost at the time. City were buying players when 30-50 million was the bracket.

They have also bought an absolute shed load of players and moved most on at quite a loss. These net spend figures will include the 13 million they got for Otamendi but conveniently start the year after they paid 40 million for him (or however much they paid, it was somewhere around that).

The net spend figures are helped quite significantly by players like Adebayor being sold on, tons of squad players that didn't present them value for what they paid but when you take a 3 or 4 year snapshot of net spend, their sales over those years, flogging all their dead wood for losses actually reduce their net spend figure and make it appear as though they are marginally ahead in spend.

In 2017 they sold/received a loan fee for 12 players vs United's 3.

In the last 4 years they have spent around 760 million on transfers, if they do end up buying Kane, they will have spent close to a billion since 2017.

In the same period we've spent around 615, so hardly chump change but when you consider that as of 2017, City were already ahead in terms of their squad it's not that difficult to see why we're still behind. If you consider the difference in spending on top of the gap already between the clubs, it's absolutely no surprise to me that we're still behind.

Since Guardiola took over in 2016, City have bought at least 40 players. In the same period, we have brought in 18, not including Varane.

I'm not levelling this at them as a criticism as such - I don't think it's particular healthy in the grand scheme of things but I don't an 'issue' with it. But more just to point out that even if you can get a bit creative with the figures and make it look as though City are on a similar level, they simply aren't. Yes, I know that selling players is part and parcel of the game but the scale at which City will bring in and then sell players, usually at a fair loss, just shows that they can play the game of spin the wheel as many times as it takes. It's a gamble other clubs typically just can't take.

It is what it is but anyone trying to argue its even remotely similar to how United built their success - which was very heavily supported by our academy and didn't involve buying and selling large amounts of players every year, is really clutching at straws.
 

Fox outside the box

Full Member
Joined
Mar 9, 2019
Messages
418
For some reason Transfermarkt list Sanches as a 30 million purchase, so United's spending would be under the 600 mark.
 

Fluctuation0161

Full Member
Joined
Aug 8, 2016
Messages
8,170
Location
Manchester
Come more guys, are you talking about FFP again? Do you think FFP still exist in the world?

I think we should now forget about this FFP things, enjoy watching superstar football team like PGS (Messi, Neymar, Mbappe and Man City in the future.

Don't be jealous of what neighbor spending, just take care of your own house well.
The example cited from the poster I replied to was from 2017 - 2021. FFP was definitely a rule then regardless of what your opinion is on it.

In fact, that was the whole point of my post which you seemed to miss?

If clubs don't follow the rules, in any sport then it is cheating.
 

Fluctuation0161

Full Member
Joined
Aug 8, 2016
Messages
8,170
Location
Manchester
4 Businessmen invested £500 each to save Newton Heath from going under adjusted for inflation that's around £50,000 each in 2021.

So yeah £200,000 investment from 4 local businessmen is exactly the same thing as Russian Oligarch's and Gulf States pumping billions into football clubs. Isn't it?
Crazy isn't it. It is nowhere near a similar example.

I've also had to correct this as a comparable example.
 

Dancfc

Full Member
Joined
Oct 28, 2016
Messages
7,422
Supports
Chelsea
Crazy isn't it. It is nowhere near a similar example.

I've also had to correct this as a comparable example.
Well given the constant biteback to any United spending is "we earned our money" then the fact you were saved from ceasing to exist (then almost certainly given a helping hand financially for years if not decades afterwards to get back on your feet) with money you didn't "earn" is very much relevant I'm afraid.

Whatever spin is put on it, without them and their money you wouldn't have a club today (that or you'd be supporting City or Liverpool none the wiser).

Now don't get me wrong there's nothing wrong with that, infact good on you for using your break as a springboard to become the club you have since gone on to become, but forgive me if I can't take it seriously when you get all upset over other clubs trying to maximise their status or when you claim you've been grown purely organically from the get go.
 

Fluctuation0161

Full Member
Joined
Aug 8, 2016
Messages
8,170
Location
Manchester
I don't think there is any hope for football to be honest. The people that run the game are about as bent as the people who own the likes of City and PSG.

They have an interest in keeping the oil clubs investing/sports washing their money in football because more money in the game means more money to line their pockets with.
Nah. Get Blatter on the case. He will sort it.
 

Fluctuation0161

Full Member
Joined
Aug 8, 2016
Messages
8,170
Location
Manchester
Well given the constant biteback to any United spending is "we earned our money" then the fact you were saved from ceasing to exist (then almost certainly given a helping hand financially for years if not decades afterwards to get back on your feet) with money you didn't "earn" is very much relevant I'm afraid.

Whatever spin is put on it, without them and their money you wouldn't have a club today (that or you'd be supporting City or Liverpool none the wiser).

Now don't get me wrong there's nothing wrong with that, infact good on you for using your break as a springboard to become the club you have since gone on to become, but forgive me if I can't take it seriously when you get all upset over other clubs trying to maximise their status or when you claim you've been grown purely organically from the get go.
You are trying to compare a local businessmen investing £2.5k over 100 years ago. With a dodgy Russian owner investing billions. Are you serious?
 

Dancfc

Full Member
Joined
Oct 28, 2016
Messages
7,422
Supports
Chelsea
You are trying to compare a local businessmen investing £2.5k over 100 years ago. With a dodgy Russian owner investing billions. Are you serious?
And who exactly was footing the bill for transfers, player wages and general club costs for years if not decades after that date?

Unless ofcourse you're going to tell me you went from near liquidation to fully self sufficient overnight?
 

SeeMe

New Member
Newbie
Joined
Oct 1, 2019
Messages
197
Supports
Porto
Ok fair but how to we generate our money? Where do we get it from? We’re self sufficient.
no one care actually you earn yourself or you have sugar daddy. Just manage your own spending well is the key.

Ok, ignore the most spending club, Man United net spending almost double Chelsea and triple Liverpool, but in term of achievement, still behind both teams since 2017.
 

Spoony

The People's President
Joined
Oct 27, 2001
Messages
63,223
Location
Leve Palestina.
United were a yo yo club till Busby. I might be wrong but I suspect those four local businessmen were hardly oligarchs investing millions into the club. Otherwise we wouldn't have been shit till Busby weaved his magic.
 

stevoc

Full Member
Joined
Jun 11, 2011
Messages
20,821
Welcome to the sugar daddy club.
More like a salty 2nd cousin.

And who exactly would have been footing the bill for transfers, general club costs and the players wages for the foreseeable future afterwards? Unless you're going to tell me you went from near liquidation to totally self sufficient at the click of a finger.
I genuinely have no idea mate it was over a century ago and I doubt anyone living has any great insight into uniteds finances at the beginning of the 20th century.

But I think we can safely assume a consortium of 4 local businessmen circa 1902 werent pumping in the modern day equivalent of Romans endless billions into United. Evidenced by the fact United weren't particularly successful for another 50 or so years

And if we're going to talk about United getting a helping hand over 100 years ago then we should also point out Chelsea were saved from going under in the 80's by Ken bates, then Matthew Harding pumped in tens of millions into Chelsea in the 90's and then of course Roman arriving in 2003 and he spent a few quid from what I can remember.

And those 3 are just in my lifetime so one team has had significantly more outside help and far more recently than the other. So let's stop playing silly buggars here and pretending the two situations are even remotely comparable shall we.
 

JPRouve

can't stop thinking about balls - NOT deflategate
Scout
Joined
Jan 31, 2014
Messages
66,251
Location
France
4 Businessmen invested £500 each to save Newton Heath from going under adjusted for inflation that's around £50,000 each in 2021.

So yeah £200,000 investment from 4 local businessmen is exactly the same thing as Russian Oligarch's and Gulf States pumping billions into football clubs. Isn't it?
Put it in the context of the football economy at the time. And how many clubs could and actually did benefit from the same amount of money at the time. In the 1910s, it was a huge amount of money.
 

Berbasbullet

Too Boring For A Funny Tagline
Joined
Nov 3, 2011
Messages
20,382
And who exactly was footing the bill for transfers, player wages and general club costs for years if not decades after that date?

Unless ofcourse you're going to tell me you went from near liquidation to fully self sufficient overnight?
What a weird conflation, someone spending a modest amount of money to keep a football club afloat being the same as a Russian billionaire buying a club and investing hundreds of millions in multiple transfer windows to inflate the market.

I feel like people forget how insane your spending was the first 2-3 windows.You could argue it changed football forever.
 

Dancfc

Full Member
Joined
Oct 28, 2016
Messages
7,422
Supports
Chelsea
More like a salty 2nd cousin.



I genuinely have no idea mate it was over a century ago and I doubt anyone living has any great insight into uniteds finances at the beginning of the 20th century.

But I think we can safely assume a consortium of 4 local businessmen circa 1902 werent pumping in the modern day equivalent of Romans endless billions into United. Evidenced by the fact United weren't particularly successful for another 50 or so years
You won two titles and an FA Cup in the following decade from a position of near extinction.

We may not know the ins and outs of the finances back then but the odds of going from one extreme to the other solely on club generated cash would be very slim, to say the least.
 

Dec9003

Correctly predicted Portugal to win Euro 2016
Joined
Jul 31, 2015
Messages
9,086
You won two titles and an FA Cup in the following decade from a position of near extinction.

We may not know the ins and outs of the finances back then but the odds of going from one extreme to the other solely on club generated cash would be very slim, to say the least.
United were still in the second division in 1902 when we changed our name, and we didn’t win the first title until 1908. Obviously United at that time was invested in. The investment was mostly put into the club though, Old Trafford for example was built in I think 1910? Its maybe a little bit different putting in money to build a club from the ground up, as opposed to a Russian billionaire putting money in to buy good players because he’s bored.
 

TheReligion

Abusive
Joined
Nov 22, 2006
Messages
51,493
Location
Manchester
no one care actually you earn yourself or you have sugar daddy. Just manage your own spending well is the key.

Ok, ignore the most spending club, Man United net spending almost double Chelsea and triple Liverpool, but in term of achievement, still behind both teams since 2017.
Ermm yes they do. That's the point in FFP.
 

TheReligion

Abusive
Joined
Nov 22, 2006
Messages
51,493
Location
Manchester
Apparently you don't need to redevelop your stadium to survive. Silly old Leicester. Now building a new stadium which will put Stamford Bridge to shame.
 

Dancfc

Full Member
Joined
Oct 28, 2016
Messages
7,422
Supports
Chelsea
Apparently you don't need to redevelop your stadium to survive. Silly old Leicester. Now building a new stadium which will put Stamford Bridge to shame.
Where have you felt more comfortable/confident watching United play Arsenal, Highbury or The Emirates?
 

sebsheep

Correctly predicted Italy to win Euro 2020
Joined
Jun 1, 2014
Messages
11,357
Location
Here
You won two titles and an FA Cup in the following decade from a position of near extinction.

We may not know the ins and outs of the finances back then but the odds of going from one extreme to the other solely on club generated cash would be very slim, to say the least.
We did have a slight bit of fortune in being able to pick up some of City's players after they got caught cheating though.
 

::sonny::

Full Member
Joined
Jun 13, 2007
Messages
17,868
Location
Milan
They have unlimited funds, because they are state-backed, if they want more money they only need to press the button enter and print

Impossible to compete against
 

stevoc

Full Member
Joined
Jun 11, 2011
Messages
20,821
Put it in the context of the football economy at the time. And how many clubs could and actually did benefit from the same amount of money at the time. In the 1910s, it was a huge amount of money.
Can you expand on that?

What levels of investment were going on at other clubs?
 

lysglimt

Full Member
Scout
Joined
Jun 1, 2008
Messages
15,371
FFP was created to protect bayern Barcelona and Madrid from teams catching up Money wise.

Barcelona is 1B in Dept and UEFA is nowhere to be seen punishing them , instead they are still hunting City.

PSG and City are cheating , that is known but Barcelona cheat even more then them yet nothing happens to them.
Nothing happens to them ? They are broke - and they dont have £500 million to throw in for more players.
 

stevoc

Full Member
Joined
Jun 11, 2011
Messages
20,821
You won two titles and an FA Cup in the following decade from a position of near extinction.

We may not know the ins and outs of the finances back then but the odds of going from one extreme to the other solely on club generated cash would be very slim, to say the least.
I'm sure it probably wasn't all club generated. But we have no idea what level of investment there was so if can't can't assume there was none then we also can't assume there was a lot can we?

But by lour logic if we are guessing the level of investment based on what the club won in the proceeding decade then Chelsea won 5 League titles, 4 FA Cups, 2 League Cups, 1 Champions League and 1 Europa League in the first 10 years post Roman. So as I said the situations are hardly comparable.
 

JPRouve

can't stop thinking about balls - NOT deflategate
Scout
Joined
Jan 31, 2014
Messages
66,251
Location
France
Can you expand on that?

What levels of investment were going on at other clubs?
In 1910 football isn't a multi million economy, it's not really merchandised. There was obviously no television and little advertisement. And 2500£ represented a big sum that was quickly followed by the donation of a 60k£ stadium. If you put it in the context of the time, it was an incredible investment, from memory it was done because it was good for the community and would buy a lot of goodwill but it was still a massive competitive advantage.

From memory only a few clubs have had similar patrons, iirc most of the big historical clubs. From memory Aston Villa had their own patron.
 

stevoc

Full Member
Joined
Jun 11, 2011
Messages
20,821
In 1910 football isn't a multi million economy, it's not really merchandised. There was obviously no television and little advertisement. And 2500£ represented a big sum that was quickly followed by the donation of a 60k£ stadium. If you put it in the context of the time, it was an incredible investment, from memory it was done because it was good for the community and would buy a lot of goodwill but it was still a massive competitive advantage.

From memory only a few clubs have had similar patrons, iirc most of the big historical clubs. From memory Aston Villa had their own patron.

Yes but that went towards paying the clubs debt, it wasn't spent on players. Yes the chairman paid for the construction of a 100,000 capacity Old Trafford but money for investment wasn't unlimited. The club tried to get a rail company to subsidise the costs of construction, when that didn't work out the plans for OT were scaled back to 80,000.

Now I'm not claiming United didn't get some financial help back then, most football clubs that still exist today have had help at one point or another. But my only point is that a few local businessmen investing £500 each at the turn of the 20th century is in no way comparable to Oligarchs and Nation states pumping unlimited billions into clubs in the 21st century.
 

Tom Cato

Godt nyttår!
Joined
Jan 3, 2019
Messages
7,601
Glazers should put money into upgrading Old Trafford to a 95 thousand capacity.
That would change things regarding top players choosing us ahead of others to come here.
Even more fan growth and Income from tours and sales of merchandise.
Upgrading the OT capacity is going to cost more than it costs to build a new stadium due to the stadiums location. The expense is not possible to defend.

I'd love to see our fanbase react to the notion of Glazers moving us away from the very heart of the club, even if its a new and bigger stadium.