Ole Sack Watch

[the_cliff]

That's only true if it yields more results. I mean obviously this is going to be the XI next City next weekend, if it gets beaten the narrative will change again, how it only worked vs a poor Tottenham side. We've had half a dozen of these apparent eureka moments where some lineup or formation was apparently the future, I remember when Fred and McTominay was meant to be it, but they quite clearly aren't.

Our fixtures are still pretty tricky coming up, there will be much bigger tests than Tottenham that will define if this formation has any longevity.

The game against Atalanta will be tough, Atalanta are a far better outfit than Spurs atm, attacking play, control possession and defensively solid, can see it being a really frustrating night for us if he goes 3 at the back. It's all well going 3 at the back against a team in disarray such as Spurs, Atalanta and City are completely different.

Only Norwich and Leeds have scored less goals than Spurs this season in the league.

 

[RazorOz]

The game against Atalanta will be tough, Atalanta are a far better outfit than Spurs atm, attacking play, control possession and defensively solid, can see it being a really frustrating night for us if he goes 3 at the back. It's all well going 3 at the back against a team in disarray such as Spurs, Atalanta and City are completely different.

Only Norwich and Leeds have scored less goals than Spurs this season in the league.

In our next 6 games, only 1 of them is an easier game than Spurs, so yes quite obvious bigger tests are to come.

 

[Hisha]

No it won't, we're already through the looking glass. Do you think people on here, in the ground or at board level are going to accept a slide back to the way we've been playing at the start of the season? The only way Solskjaer saves his job now is by going on a huge unbeaten run where we thrash teams, and if he manages that then he deserves to keep his job.

Sorry mate. It's not you, me or the fans who are going to take the decision on Ole. If it was up to the sensible set of fans, Ole would have gone mid of last season or even before that. And even if it was up to the not so sensible fans, Ole would still have gone last week. But sadly, the ones who take decisions are far less sensible than the fans. Ole is going to continue at least until December if he somehow scraps two wins in the coming two fixtures.

 

[Ferguson’s Hairdryer]

At a big club like Madrid players come in and earn their place, sometimes not holding down a place for years. At man United for some reason we have fans like you who cry and cry when Donny van de beek and Sancho are dropped after contributing nothing. People say the manager has lowered fans expectations, if that is true it is most evident in the demands for favourite players to play regardless of form.

Yeah. It’s normal to demand a £75m player and then not play him.

 

[Nikelesh Reddy]

It's possible the media have overblown it this week, but I've never seen a dressing room circus like it before in my life.

It's the specificity of the stories this week and the fact they've come from every single media source - Ronaldo pleaing with the players not to down tools, players questioning Maguire's captaincy, Bailly sulking over unfit players being selected ahead of him, players unhappy with lack of playing time, players thinking the coaching sessions are poor, players thinking the manager's tactics are the reason we're conceding so many chances.

Teams can always pull out results over the course of the season even when the manager has lost the faith of the players, we're obviously not going to lose every game for the rest of the season. We pulled out plenty of good results under Moyes/LVG/Mourinho and it was only after they were sacked we found out the players couldn't wait to see the back of them.

True,but Jose and LVG never finished in the top 4 in consecutive seasons.Under Ole we have been more consistent in the league(but poor in cup competitions)….So I do feel that we can secure 4th place.Either way like I said before,Ole still needs to be replaced,but it’s better to do it in the summer….

 

[Pablo76]

Bit late to the vote but I went with the obviously huge minority and said no.

I want change as much as the next fan and I hate the ‘brand’ of football we play. But ultimately I think changing now will be to the detriment of everyone, particularly a lot of the players.

Time will tell, I’ll be fine with it either way but I can’t even honestly say who I would want instead at this point.

 

[pratyush_utd]

 

[AFC NimbleThumb]

Reverting to a 352 after 3 years of ‘squad building’ for a different style is a backwards step. Adding a world class CB like Varane to babysit our faltering CBs & midfielders only masks the issues.

We ideally need an OgS caretaker type to take over from OgS.

 

[MrSingh2002]

How is David Moyes doing better with his squad than Ole with ours?

 

[Van Piorsing]

'Will consider' is well known phrase when it comes to United, but glad Ornstein's on the case.

 

[Wilt]

How is David Moyes doing better with his squad than Ole with ours?

Need you ask

 

[Hoof the ball]

Can anything really be analysed on the basis of a game vs. Spurs?

We've got a fair few people now talking positively about the impact of the formation change. The assumption is that the formation change is the reason for change in performance/result. Sample size is one game vs. a Spurs side that is, quite frankly, absolutely atrocious both home and away. What could possibly be learned from a single game in this context?

For eg. Spurs have scored nine goals in ten games. The assumption from a lot of our fans is that the stability and clean sheet can be attributed towards the system change, but given that Spurs are averaging just less than a goal per game, there's a very high chance that even with our poor clean sheet record that we'd have our best shot of keeping a clean sheet regardless of whether it was a 4-2-3-1 or a 5-3-2.

Also, there is the larger issue of forward planning and squad development. Ole has spent a lot of money to accommodate his vision of playing the 4-2-3-1. Ole cannot make a four-at-the-back system work, and so he's switching to a system with which he has no experience with, but what of the likes of Sancho? How about the likes of Pellistri and Amad? Elanga? Purchased in view of a winger system. Essentially, Ole has spent a lot of money on players he either can't play (due to system change) or won't play (due to his own discretion). What's worse, this 3-5-2 is to accommodate Ronaldo and Cavani up front, right? Cavani will be gone next summer; Ronaldo will be 37 and a half!

One win with a formation change means squat when your opponent is that poor. Let's see how we get on with Atalanta, and then City. Let's see if it's just a one-off or if there's even any merit to the change.

 

[Max_United]

True,but Jose and LVG never finished in the top 4 in consecutive seasons.Under Ole we have been more consistent in the league(but poor in cup competitions)….So I do feel that we can secure 4th place.Either way like I said before,Ole still needs to be replaced,but it’s better to do it in the summer….

Context is important here, "two consecutive top4 finishes" does not show the full picture. LvG missed top4 on goal difference in his second season. Mourinho secured 2 CL qualifications in a row (first via EL). In the seasons that we missed top four we got 66 and 69 points, whereas in his first full season Ole made top-4 with 66 points only and only in the last game due to Leicester collapse.

If any if the likes of Arsenal, Spurs, West Ham, Everton, Leicester etc finds good form - our top4 finish is under serious threat.

 

[GDaly95]

It's almost as if he's been sacked and immediately re-appointed as caretaker, where he might get the job permanently again

 

[Crashoutcassius]

Yeah. It’s normal to demand a £75m player and then not play him.

Oh didn't realise he has 'not played'

 

[Shane88]

"Desperate to make it until the summer at least."

Why? Which compliant little yes man do they have lined up for the summer?

 

[Ixion]

"Desperate to make it until the summer at least."

Why? Which compliant little yes man do they have lined up for the summer?

Probably expecting Poch to get fired if they haven't won the CL

 

[Sayros]

Probably expecting Poch to get fired if they haven't won the CL

Honestly, I'd be tempted to let him go to United right now.

 

[largelyworried]

No it won't, we're already through the looking glass. Do you think people on here, in the ground or at board level are going to accept a slide back to the way we've been playing at the start of the season? The only way Solskjaer saves his job now is by going on a huge unbeaten run where we thrash teams, and if he manages that then he deserves to keep his job.

Given that we tumbled out of the title race after less than 10 games with a historic home thrashing to our most hated rivals and Ole is still in a job, I’d suggest taking nothing for granted about his future. For as long as he’s vaguely in top four contention, he’s here this season in my opinion.

 

[the_cliff]

Can anything really be analysed on the basis of a game vs. Spurs?

We've got a fair few people now talking positively about the impact of the formation change. The assumption is that the formation change is the reason for change in performance/result. Sample size is one game vs. a Spurs side that is, quite frankly, absolutely atrocious both home and away. What could possibly be learned from a single game in this context?

For eg. Spurs have scored nine goals in ten games. The assumption from a lot of our fans is that the stability and clean sheet can be attributed towards the system change, but given that Spurs are averaging just less than a goal per game, there's a very high chance that even with our poor clean sheet record that we'd have our best shot of keeping a clean sheet regardless of whether it was a 4-2-3-1 or a 5-3-2.

Also, there is the larger issue of forward planning and squad development. Ole has spent a lot of money to accommodate his vision of playing the 4-2-3-1. Ole cannot make a four-at-the-back system work, and so he's switching to a system with which he has no experience with, but what of the likes of Sancho? How about the likes of Pellistri and Amad? Elanga? Purchased in view of a winger system. Essentially, Ole has spent a lot of money on players he either can't play (due to system change) or won't play (due to his own discretion). What's worse, this 3-5-2 is to accommodate Ronaldo and Cavani up front, right? Cavani will be gone next summer; Ronaldo will be 37 and a half!

One win with a formation change means squat when your opponent is that poor. Let's see how we get on with Atalanta, and then City. Let's see if it's just a one-off or if there's even any merit to the change.

Exactly, I mentioned this earlier how only Norwich and Leeds have scored less than Spurs, now Leeds just scored 2 so it's only Norwich who has scored less than Spurs in the league.

I do think his plan long term (no matter how far fetched) is a 4-2-3-1 he just chose that specific formation for the next 3 games because he's under an immense amount of pressure. We will revert to a 4 at the back once these tough fixtures are over and done with, whether he gets it to work is a whole other subject though. I think Ole has dug his own grave this season tbh with his signings. He's kept a bloated squad especially in terms of attacking personnel and Ole won't be able to keep the dressing room in order, it's only a matter of time till there'll be big problems and stories of bust ups (there are already stories of it starting). That's if he's not gone before then because of results going against us. I find it exceedingly unlikely that Ole will survive till the end of the season.

The only solution that I could see for Ole is to go with a 3-4-3 that will give defensive stability and the use of wingers, the only problem with this formation is it's not really suitable for Bruno.

So I see three likely scenarios:

Stick with a 3-5-2:
Like you mentioned no room for Sancho, Fans and media will be all over him for not playing a player that he's chased for 2 years and paid 75 million for. Tbf Rashford and Greenwood could play the Cavani role as well but there's definitely no room for Sancho.

Go back to a 4-2-3-1:
He doesn't know how to make a 4 in the back system work, we're going to be wide open and results will be bad.

Change to a 3-4-3:
This is imo the least likely scenario Bruno is dropped for the wingers, Fans and media will be all over him for dropping Bruno.

This is without even mentioning the problems with DVB, Lingard, Telles, Martial and Bailly. Right now it's like a choice of pick your poison, I really don't see how Ole can come out of this season with a job, would take an insane amount of luck.

 

[AFC NimbleThumb]

Also, there is the larger issue of forward planning and squad development. Ole has spent a lot of money to accommodate his vision of playing the 4-2-3-1. Ole cannot make a four-at-the-back system work, and so he's switching to a system with which he has no experience with, but what of the likes of Sancho? How about the likes of Pellistri and Amad? Elanga? Purchased in view of a winger system. Essentially, Ole has spent a lot of money on players he either can't play (due to system change) or won't play (due to his own discretion). What's worse, this 3-5-2 is to accommodate Ronaldo and Cavani up front, right? Cavani will be gone next summer; Ronaldo will be 37 and a half!

I agree with the whole post but this is the thing I’ve been thinking since the team was announced.

We’ve spent 3 years building a squad around a 4-2-3-1 formation, that most could see wasn’t working but the squad has been built top heavy because of it to go with a formation we’re not really capable of rotating for.

The Sancho deal is looking worse than anything we’ve seen with VdB. We chased him for 2 summers, spent a kings ransom on him & haven’t really shown we had a place for him. Take the RW position, with the players you name we’ve spent well in excess of £100mil in the past 18 months for our manager to land on Greenwood as the starter [no problem, love Mason] but if a 352 was ever in his plans he’s absolutely scuppered building a squad capable.

He’s throwing sh*t at the wall & hoping it sticks. We’ve got world class attackers who will, as they did yesterday, have moments of magic but when your manager builds a system based around the individual brilliance of a man the club signed moments before the transfer deadline shut instead of the one he chased for years, you have to ask yourself what the plans were in the first place.

People are denounced for being reactive to bad results on this forum, the reaction to yesterday by some has been no better.

 

[Sparky Rhiwabon]

May look to upgrade him at some point

“Should we get an upgrade? Yeah, maybe at some point “

 

[Ralph1386]

May look to upgrade him at some point

“Should we get an upgrade? Yeah, maybe at some point “

 

[Garethw]

Great result yesterday, but let’s be honest, that’s the worst Spurs team I’ve seen in 20 years.

 

[AneRu]

"Desperate to make it until the summer at least."

Why? Which compliant little yes man do they have lined up for the summer?

Those unimaginative Muppets infesting our board are actually watching Pochettino struggle at PSG and hoping he will be sacked making him available on the cheap. They obviously fear Conte because he won't put up with their 'one big signing per window' policy and are too blind to see the benefits of paying out for a top manager or one with potential to take us close to City and Pool.

 

[Rusholme Ruffian]

FFS this is a dereliction of duty.

 

[glazed]

Moyes and LVG got sacked for missing top four. Jose would have been sacked for missing top four but pre-empted it by behaving so badly they sacked him sooner. All of them were thought to have a dismissal clause in their contracts allowing them to be sacked more cheaply if they missed top four.

The club is run by accountants. They might sack Ole if they think they can salvage top four cheaply by replacing him and that he will miss top four if they keep him in place. I don't think either of those things are certain though, or actually even likely.

They clearly should sack him but only for the same reasons they should never have employed him in the first place. Given they chose the latter, are they really going to willingly do the former?

Losing three points to Liverpool is not really a big deal down in Florida. Buying a DM in January would be a far better use of the money.

 

[Ferguson’s Hairdryer]

Oh didn't realise he has 'not played'

Yeah you’re right, since his arrived Ole has used him like the £75m final part of the jigsaw to complete Ole’s masterpiece that we were told he was and not some random squad player.

 

[Adnan]

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[Dr. StrangeHate]

Guys my crystal ball is saying that Conte is going to Tottenham, Ten Hag is going to Newcastle, and Zidane is taking over France after the world cup. Also God hates United.

 

[Adnan]

Guys my crystal ball is saying that Conte is going to Tottenham, Ten Haag is going to Newcastle, and Zidane is taking over France after the world cup. Also God hates United.

Let's hope Ten Haag goes to Newcastle and we get ten Hag.

 

[Adnan]

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[AneRu]

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This is the problem with a reactionary board, I think they are briefing these 'consistency is needed soundbites' to placate the online fans because they can't withstand negative feedback. For them social media is given a greater importance than necessary.

They are either bottled decisive action when it was needed and to try and make it seem like the next two are crucial is just hopeless. What if he loses at Atalanta and wins against City? Would they have the backbone to sack him then when a loss in Italy would be more damaging to our season and a win against City generate more positive publicity? He could win those two and proceed to get one point in four after the break, then what?

At this level of the game you really expect a board to be more decisive and less reactionary but the showing over the past week has been that of more of the same. This Arnold character looks like a carbon copy of Woodward and we are in for long and painful ride bogged down in mediocrity.

 

[Adnan]

This is the problem with a reactionary board, I think they are briefing these 'consistency is needed soundbites' to placate the online fans because they can't withstand negative feedback. For them social media is given a greater importance than necessary.

They are either bottled decisive action when it was needed and to try and make it seem like the next two are crucial is just hopeless. What if he loses at Atalanta and wins against City? Would they have the backbone to sack him then when a loss in Italy would be more damaging to our season and a win against City generate more positive publicity? He could win those two and proceed to get one point in four after the break, then what?

At this level of the game you really expect a board to be more decisive and less reactionary but the showing over the past week has been that of more of the same. This Arnold character looks like a carbon copy of Woodward and we are in for long and painful ride bogged down in mediocrity.

I could be wrong but I'm thinking they've got their targets in mind and those targets won't be available until the end of the season. So maybe they're thinking to allow Ole until the end of the season but on the condition he delivers a level of consistency which should be expected of this squad. And if things don't improve v Atalanta or City then the interim option will become a real possibility.

 

[FatTails]

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Club obsessed with the long term is now living game-to-game. Ole went from interim, to “this is a long term project”, to now effectively being an interim manager again, waiting to be replaced next time we lose a game.

It’s hilarious.

 

[Flytan]

Club obsessed with the long term is now living game-to-game. Ole went from interim, to “this is a long term project”, to now effectively being an interim manager again, waiting to be replaced next time we lose a game.

It’s hilarious.

That's because "long term" is used as an excuse for not challenging in the present. There is no "long term project" for big clubs, they should always be competing. In reality they just know their money is in danger so they're running financial calculations debating if it's worth firing their puppet

 

[Red00012]

Honestly, I'd be tempted to let him go to United right now.

Why ? Is he that bad ?

 

[AneRu]

I could be wrong but I'm thinking they've got their targets in mind and those targets won't be available until the end of the season. So maybe they're thinking to allow Ole until the end of the season but on the condition he delivers a level of consistency which should be expected of this squad. And if things don't improve v Atalanta or City then the interim option will become a real possibility.

OK makes sense

 

[Sviken]

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So let's say we win those games and then proceed to lose the next 3? What happens then? Another "let's just wait and see what happens in these next 3 games"? What's the point of this excercise? It's just a roller-coaster of mediocrity. This is why I absolutely hate these types of ultimatums. You either sack him or you don't.

 

[Hansi Fick]

I could be wrong but I'm thinking they've got their targets in mind and those targets won't be available until the end of the season. So maybe they're thinking to allow Ole until the end of the season but on the condition he delivers a level of consistency which should be expected of this squad. And if things don't improve v Atalanta or City then the interim option will become a real possibility.

Which kind of makes sense.