The 4-4-2 Draft - QF - Gio vs Pat Mustard

[Pat_Mustard]

GIO:

PAT:

GIO:

THE TEAM

We've gone fairly heavy at the back recognising that most of the great 4-4-2s in history were built on strong foundations. World Cup and multiple European Cup winning custodian Sepp Maier takes the gloves. Ruud Krol's quality on the ball and tactical acumen enables easy build up, central defensive support and attacking interplay both inside and outside Giggs. Inside him Diego Godin is dropped into his Simeone-drilled Atletico Madrid 4-4-2 berth, while he is partnered by the uncompromising Beppe Bergomi who takes up his preferred spot on the right. Completing a high calibre back 4 is the legendary Djalma Santos who is the robust base for Figo to go and kick arse ahead of him on the right flank.

All of the great 4-4-2 midfields had plenty of graft and this one attempts to achieve the same heady mix of two-way players. On the left is Ryan Giggs who is the gold standard 4-4-2 left midfielder. The centre of midfield is full to the brim with leadership and organisation where Spurs' greatest ever player Dave Mackay holds the forte alongside Patrick Vieira whose rangy frame, athleticism and box-to-box impact are all amplified in a 4-4-2. Both were really tidy on the ball and provide a rock-solid platform for the team here. Luis Figo will be afforded the most creative freedom and responsibility in the midfield unit and his enterprising wing play was, in my view, the peak wide Figo that run riot for Barcelona.

Up top the bombastic Brazilians Rivaldo and Careca should bounce off each other to form a natural and exciting partnership. Rivaldo gets the central role he so craves and has the all-round partner in Careca to create a similar dynamic to those he forged with Kluivert and Ronaldo. In doing so he also renews his Barcelona club tandem with Luis Figo. Careca will be a cracking target for the aerial delivery of Giggs and Figo and can profit from the range of attacking angles served up by the wing duo and Rivaldo.

HOW DOES THE 4-4-2 FIT WITH THESE BOYS?

• Solid back 4 and keeper who have all played and excelled in back 4 systems. Each defender is in the same slot in the back 4 where they are most comfortable from their own careers.
• Swashbuckling flanks - Krol & Giggs and Djalma & Figo are compelling partnerships.
• Complementary strike (9.5 and a 9) partnership with two Brazilians on the same funky wavelength.

PAT:

After reinforcements my Utd contingent now mercifully outnumber the Liverpool boys, but insofar as we've built around any template, this team owes much to their great 4-4-2 sides of the 70s and 80s who deserve to be represented in this draft.

• John Barnes, along with Gio's Giggs, was simply first and foremost in my thoughts when I considered the left winger pool for this draft. When it comes to marrying familiarity with the demands of the formation and game-breaking individual ability, he has few peers in the pool.
• Liverpool frequently deployed combative and industrious midfielders such as Sammy Lee, Terry McDermott and Jimmy Case on the right of their midfield in their halcyon days - Gerrard will more than match them for graft and industry while ratcheting up the quality on the ball massively. He produced some of his career-best football from this right-midfield position, and it affords him the freedom to take risks on the ball and showcase his formidable attacking arsenal: wicked crossing and long-range switches of play, incisive through-balls when he comes infield, fast and powerful ball-carrying, and of course a cannon of a shot.
• In the direct and frenetic environment of a 4-4-2, Dalglish's vision and composure is a priceless asset in bringing his teammates into play and carving open the opposition defence. I can't remember him having much of an impact in drafts previously, but with this theme and the substantial block list he's near the top of the heap in his role.
• Clearly no team is going to be exercising a tiki-taki style stranglehold on possession here, but we aim to play on the front foot and to that end we've drafted a defence that is comfortable pushing up into a high line. GOAT-level keeper in Schmeichel who was comfortable surging off his line, and a pacey CB pairing who are both comofortable on the ball and in McGrath's case especially, confident 1v1 defenders.
• We have a particularly strong CM duo and in my view a highly complementary one: Bastian as the more positionally-reserved of the pairing and our metronome-in-chief; Robbo as the B2B force of nature.
• The partnership up front is basically a pairing of all-time Scotland XI shoo-ins, who only got to play together fleetingly at the very end of Law's career. Dalglish will knit together our attack as he did for Celtic and Liverpool with such distinction, with Law providing the lethal cutting edge and a workrate both in possession and against the ball to rival Dalglish's most celebrated partner Ian Rush.

 

[Pat_Mustard]

@Gio game on!

 

[Gio]

All the best @Pat_Mustard

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

How do you see Robson-Gerrard playing out, Pat? I rmember StevieG used to spend a lot of time in IR position which might overlap a bit more when Robson advances.

And Gio.. is Djalma defensive to counter Figo, or will be be balanced between defence and attack?

 

[BorisDeLeFora]

Great team Pat, Y.N.W.A.

 

[Gio]

How do you see Robson-Gerrard playing out, Pat? I rmember StevieG used to spend a lot of time in IR position which might overlap a bit more when Robson advances.

And Gio.. is Djalma defensive to counter Figo, or will be be balanced between defence and attack?

Yes that's the theory. He can be the solid platform to allow Figo to play with more freedom, as he did in 1958 and 1962.

Tidy footballer is Djalma though, scored more goals than Nilton apparently, and stumbled across this lovely piece of technical jiggery-pokery earlier:

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

 

[General_Elegancia]

@Gio Your team are really excellent team but could you explain more details about Bergomi and Godin duo.

Since both of them are known for a bit rough styles of playing (especially Bergomi who had more 10 red cards during his career) and their biggest strengths is/was marking opponents attackers.

I guess that Bergomi will do more of a covering role since he had played as covering cb during his later years at Inter ( late90s).

 

[Pat_Mustard]

All the best @Pat_Mustard

You too mate. That's a predictably immense team you've fielded!

Great team Pat, Y.N.W.A.

Are you a Liverpool man Boris? Christ knows I could use a few of them in this thread as Gio is one of the few Gerrard-defenders in these parts and his vote is off limits here.

 

[Gio]

@Gio Your team is really excellent team but could you explain more details about Bergomi and Godin duo. Since both of them are known for a bit rough styles of playing and their biggest strengths is/was marking opponents attackers. I guess that Bergomi will do more of a covering role since he had played as covering cb during his later years at Inter ( late90s).

For sure. I think they can do both aspects - Bergomi as the fairly atypical Italian stopper who, later on in his career, was dropped into sweeping and covering roles. Same for Godin who can be the ugly man-marker, but can also defend space as the organiser and leader of the back line. For Atletico as grizzly as the whole set-up was, Godin was often the cover defender - as much as you can be a 'cover' defender in the modern game where zonal is king. To further that point the Godin - Giminez partnership at Atletico was really a pairing of an all-rounder in Godin and a classic stopper in Giminez.

In terms of this game, their style is arguably a good fit against a Dalglish who had a big arse and was effective back to goal and against Law who could spring about and mix it with bigger defenders. So we'd be looking at a modern central defensive partnership where the man-marking and covering duties are shared.

 

[Pat_Mustard]

How do you see Robson-Gerrard playing out, Pat? I rmember StevieG used to spend a lot of time in IR position which might overlap a bit more when Robson advances.

What I like about that side of midfield is that you've got a ball-dominant type in Gerrard who will want to ping passes from that area and generally see as much of the ball as possible, partnered with Robbo who could play his natural game without spending much time at all with the ball at his feet. I see Robbo breaking forward quite frequently looking to get on the end of something from Gerrard's deliveries, or sitting back to offer a safe passing option and cover if we lose possession. Basically I like that Robbo does so much of his best work off-the-ball rather than jostling with Gerrard to dictate things from that area.

 

[Šjor Bepo]

What I like about that side of midfield is that you've got a ball-dominant type in Gerrard who will want to ping passes from that area and generally see as much of the ball as possible, partnered with Robbo who could play his natural game without spending much time at all with the ball at his feet. I see Robbo breaking forward quite frequently looking to get on the end of something from Gerrard's deliveries, or sitting back to offer a safe passing option and cover if we lose possession. Basically I like that Robbo does so much of his best work off-the-ball rather than jostling with Gerrard to dictate things from that area.

you just lost my vote
best thing about gerrard on the right and gerrard behind the striker is that you move him away of the ball so he doesnt "dictate" anything as he is absolutely clueless in that aspect. Gerrard needs to play on his instincts and moving him away off the ball, closer to the final third allows him to do that and there he can use his talent and be an incredible asset.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

Giggs-Krol might be the best flank of the draft while Law-Kenny might be the best forwards duo of the draft.

 

[harms]

It’s almost impossible to vote in those games at this point. With no tactical advantage it’s just pretty much perfect 4-4-2s.

 

[TheReligion]

@Pat_Mustard

Great team. I have a query about your left side. Reassure me that Barnes and Camacho can take care of Figo and Santos?

I think you have it right over the other side. Giggs, Kroll, Rivaldo is lovely but with the intensity and work rate of Gerrard and Dani Alves feel you’ve done as good a job as you could have to try and nullify

 

[Physiocrat]

@Gio How confident are you that Bergomi would suit a zonal system? I remember reading a while back he never really got to grips with the zonal system.

 

[Isotope]

It’s almost impossible to vote in those games at this point. With no tactical advantage it’s just pretty much perfect 4-4-2s.

Yes. Both teams are true to the 4-4-2 theme. Both have player quality advantage on different positions and make it hard to choose. Gio's wingers looks beautiful but Pat's midfield is mouthwatering. Attack and defence, i have preference which one is better. But then when considering the team's dynamic as a whole, it becomes different.

SemiFinal and Final will be even harder.

 

[Gio]

@Gio How confident are you that Bergomi would suit a zonal system? I remember reading a while back he never really got to grips with the zonal system.

Reading Sacchi's book now which, funnily enough, touches on this topic. Sacchi didn't call him up to the national team because he wasn't sure about how he'd adapt to a different style of defending and he knew he could trust his Milan robots. In Sacchi's defence it is true he was an archetypal Italian man-marker, but I don't believe that stance has stood the test of time. At different points in his career he played in either a zonal system or as the spare defender whose job was to cover space and ultimately function as a zonal defender when required.

For example, in his first campaign for Inter:

He started off at right-back, initially playing in a zonal marking system, and finished off as a sweeper. He was a warrior in Gigi Simoni’s defence, a man similar to Bersellini, Trapattoni, Bearzot and Cesare Maldini: all of the coaches who best understood how important it was to have a point of reference like him both on the pitch and in the dressing room.

Later in his career:

He knew how to fill different defensive roles, he did well even when he was the libero. This is because, in addition to the technical qualities he had, was something else: how he could support the team.

Towards the end of his career when Roy Hodgson took over:

When I arrived at Inter for the first time, I brought my game system. And it was from Bergomi, who had played all his life with another system, that I expected the greatest resistance. Instead, he showed the greatest enthusiasm, even accepting to play on the left side. Here, just this professionalism and this availability at his age, with everything he had played and won previously, still seem incredible to me today.

On the penultimate season in his career when he played as sweeper and saw him recalled to the Italy squad after a 6 year absence.

That was the best season of my career.

And Beppe's typically deferential verdict on Sacchi:

If Sacchi hasn't called me in all these years, it means that I didn't deserve it. One thing I'm sorry: he never gave me an opportunity, not even for an internship, even if he called a lot of players. It's true that Inter didn't play in the zone, but then with Hodgson I learned the zone and got rich: any player can and must be able to change form.

 

[Physiocrat]

@Gio

Well I am sold. Great quote from Woy.

 

[Pat_Mustard]

@Pat_Mustard

Great team. I have a query about your left side. Reassure me that Barnes and Camacho can take care of Figo and Santos?

I think you have it right over the other side. Giggs, Kroll, Rivaldo is lovely but with the intensity and work rate of Gerrard and Dani Alves feel you’ve done as good a job as you could have to try and nullify

Cheers mate.

As regards our left side, firstly Djalma was primarily a defensive right back so I'm not overly concerned about the potential for constant overloads on that wing. Secondly, Barnes was a proper 4-4-2 player who contributed in both phases, as Dalglish referred to in his published account of the 1987-88 season:

I returned from a family holiday in Spain last Saturday. Our chief executive Peter Robinson had phoned me there with the news that John Barnes wants to join us.

Some people seem surprised that a player of such obvious individual skill as John should come to a club like Liverpool whose success has been based on teamwork, but I think he will complement us and vice versa. I have admired him for a long time. We know he has the speed and ability to go past people and not only is he one of the best, if not the best crosser of a ball in British football, he will contribute a great deal to the team effort. He is never shy of going back to help out in defensive situations and, of course, at set pieces he can be a menace to the opposition. John had always impressed us as an opponent, playing for Watford; watching him, we have always enjoyed and admired his performances. There is no doubt in my mind that he has the attributes to improve our team; and in turn, he can learn things here that will benefit him.

Lastly, Camacho looks like one of the better stylistic fits to shackle Figo - a resolute, nasty bastard of a defender who relentlessly stuck to his task. Now, Figo was exceptional so I'm not discounting him deciding the match here, but he'll not have it easy.

Camacho: a thorn in Cruyff's side

In early 1975, Barcelona visited Madrid with their 5-0 win over Real the year before still fresh in the memory, and with three-time Ballon d'Or winner Johan Cruyff leading their ranks. Real's coach, Milan Miljanic, opted to man-mark the Dutch master, with 20-year-old defender José Antonio Camacho entrusted with the job.

"I had nothing to lose," Camacho recalled years later. "He was the best player in the world; I was just a kid!" Followed everywhere he went by the tireless Camacho, Cruyff was driven to distraction as Real ran out 1-0 winners, and his marker - who went on to play at the Bernabéu for 15 years - announced himself on the big stage.

If you think he sweats a lot as a coach, imagine how much he sweated as a player. He was like a hunting dog; wherever you went on the pitch, he went. You knew that if you looked over your shoulder, he’d be there waiting for you. He didn’t talk either, he just breathed in a very strange way – “Fsst, Fsst, Fsst, Fsst”! A real nightmare.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

This was a peculiar game to call. Initially impressions were that Gio is better but I did find Pat's team more cohesive even if some of the personnel might be inferior to their counterparts.

For Gio, I did find the Godin-Bergomi-Djalma combination to be really passive. Also would have preferred a playmaker there either in midfield or in the support striker role. Vieira/Rivaldo will definitely do their bit, but that extra bit of magic that an elite playmaker can provide would have been immense for this team.

For Pat, Alves is such a great pick, makes the whole Gerrard thing work like an absolute charm. Another of those teams that could do with a midfield playmaker.

I expected a majority of the teams to go with a midfield playmaker in this draft considering they can really enhance a 4-4-2 with spreading play all over the pitch which would be essential with proper wide player formations. The Robsons and Vierias and Davids are fine as link up players between midfield and attack but they can never replicate the impact a Pirlo or Xavi or Scholes can have on the game.

 

[Gio]

This was a peculiar game to call. Initially impressions were that Gio is better but I did find Pat's team more cohesive even if some of the personnel might be inferior to their counterparts.

For Gio, I did find the Godin-Bergomi-Djalma combination to be really passive. Also would have preferred a playmaker there either in midfield or in the support striker role. Vieira/Rivaldo will definitely do their bit, but that extra bit of magic that an elite playmaker can provide would have been immense for this team.

For Pat, Alves is such a great pick, makes the whole Gerrard thing work like an absolute charm. Another of those teams that could do with a midfield playmaker.

I expected a majority of the teams to go with a midfield playmaker in this draft considering they can really enhance a 4-4-2 with spreading play all over the pitch which would be essential with proper wide player formations. The Robsons and Vierias and Davids are fine as link up players between midfield and attack but they can never replicate the impact a Pirlo or Xavi or Scholes can have on the game.

I'm coming from the other angle - which is based on how many successful 4-4-2s operated - where there wasn't a designated playmaker as such and the playmaking was shared and funneled through the wings. We have 2 very creative wide players so there is no need for a 3rd one within a 4-man midfield unit. In good 4-4-2s the transition tactics are quite simple: win the ball in the middle and spread it out wide or punch the pass into the forward's feet. They aren't incredibly difficult skills requiring the cream of the playmaker crop to execute. They are perfectly within the range of our central players:

It's been a while since we've had a midfield player who looks at the front man's run first and then looks at other options. He [Vieira] makes dream passes forward and he's already put me in several times.

Mackay was an extraordinarily good footballer. Covered the ground superbly and could pass as well as anybody.

As you said, Rivaldo would 'do his bit' too and he's arguably the most creative second striker in the pool and has the best final ball on the park here.

Spoiler: How's that for a through ball

As for Pirlo, Xavi or Scholes, the irony is that neither Pirlo or Xavi ever excelled in a flat 4-4-2. Of course Scholes did, but he was more the exception to the rule and even he was sometimes rotated out for Butt and arguably didn't hit his playmaking peak until placed in a 3-man central midfield unit.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

I'm coming from the other angle - which is based on how many successful 4-4-2s operated - where there wasn't a designated playmaker as such and the playmaking was shared and funneled through the wings.

I dont mind not having a midfield playmaker to be honest, but would then prefer a second striker who could consistently drop deeper and fill the void of an elite playmaker. That is a terrific through ball from Rivaldo but for me, he was more of a final third player than one who would consistently drop deep.

win the ball in the middle and spread it out wide or punch the pass into the forward's feet. They aren't incredibly difficult skills requiring the cream of the playmaker crop to execute. They are perfectly within the range of our central players:

Would work more often than not, but when you are up against a well organized elite opposition that can defend well, it probably wont always be sufficient IMO. That extra bit of creativity a midfield playmaker can provide can break deadlocks.

As for Pirlo, Xavi or Scholes, the irony is that neither Pirlo or Xavi ever excelled in a flat 4-4-2.

Pirlo won the 2006 WC with Italy in a flat 4-4-2 mate and had an excellent tournament. He completed 475 passes out of 580 attempted throughout the tournament, while also winning 18 challenges. After the final, he was named Man of the Match for a third time, winning more Man of the Match Awards than any other player in the tournament. Xavi also did very well in the Spain 2008 setup which was still a 4-4-2 if not a British styled one.

 

[Gio]

@Pat_Mustard

Great team. I have a query about your left side. Reassure me that Barnes and Camacho can take care of Figo and Santos?

I think you have it right over the other side. Giggs, Kroll, Rivaldo is lovely but with the intensity and work rate of Gerrard and Dani Alves feel you’ve done as good a job as you could have to try and nullify

I rate Camacho's defensive game quite highly. In fact before Pat snapped him up, I had him pegged as a 12th man to allow Krol to be used centrally if the situation demanded it.

With Figo though he's such a difficult player to get a handle on. Could go inside or outside without missing a beat. He went up against the best left-backs of his generation and tore them up. Carlos had major issues during his career trying to deal with him, getting sent off for a wild lunge in one Clasico with Figo scoring this beauty in another.


And Ashley Cole was probably the purest defender he came up against - one I rate even higher than Camacho - and even he struggled badly at times. When England and Portugal played in early 2004 Cole had to come off at half time after getting turned inside and outside so often.

 

[Šjor Bepo]

I rate Camacho's defensive game quite highly. In fact before Pat snapped him up, I had him pegged as a 12th man to allow Krol to be used centrally if the situation demanded it.

With Figo though he's such a difficult player to get a handle on. Could go inside or outside without missing a beat. He went up against the best left-backs of his generation and tore them up. Carlos had major issues during his career trying to deal with him, getting sent off for a wild lunge in one Clasico with Figo scoring this beauty in another.


And Ashley Cole was probably the purest defender he came up against - one I rate even higher than Camacho - and even he struggled badly at times. When England and Portugal played in early 2004 Cole had to come off at half time after getting turned inside and outside so often.

so just another day in the office for the Pep Guardiola is my idol

 

[Gio]

Pirlo won the 2006 WC with Italy in a flat 4-4-2 mate and had an excellent tournament. He completed 475 passes out of 580 attempted throughout the tournament, while also winning 18 challenges. After the final, he was named Man of the Match for a third time, winning more Man of the Match Awards than any other player in the tournament. Xavi also did very well in the Spain 2008 setup which was still a 4-4-2 if not a British styled one.

Don't disagree that it's a nice option to have. Hence why I've got Masopust on my bench. But I didn't think it was necessary here. Firstly, because Pat has a defence that wants to push up and so our best chances will be on the break. And second because with Robson and Gerrard going box-to-box I wanted a solid defensive resistance in the centre against their runs and physicality - hence the Vieira and Mackay tandem.

On that Italy side, they had a midfield 4 box of Pirlo, Gattuso, Perrotta and Camorenesi. That's very workmanlike and collectively contains a lot less creativity than Giggs - Mackay - Vieira - Figo. Shape wise it wouldn't really be true to the spirit of the flat 4-4-2 in my view.

 

[Himannv]

@Pat_Mustard do you have more information on Camacho. Whats he like as a player?

@Gio do you have information on Careca? I'm assuming he's a pure no 9 type but more information would be nice.

 

[Gio]

@Pat_Mustard do you have more information on Camacho. Whats he like as a player?

@Gio do you have information on Careca? I'm assuming he's a pure no 9 type but more information would be nice.

Aye he is. To be honest he was an option to upgrade, but he felt like a perfect fit as a proper no 9. Firstly as a partner for Rivaldo and then secondly as a target for Giggs and Figo. It seemed to be important to get the right type of striker attacking their deliveries. He was brilliant in the air and his link-up play was really sharp. His performance against France in the 1986 WC QF really captured my imagination:

 

[General_Elegancia]

Aye he is. To be honest he was an option to upgrade, but he felt like a perfect fit as a proper no 9. Firstly as a partner for Rivaldo and then secondly as a target for Giggs and Figo. It seemed to be important to get the right type of striker attacking their deliveries. He was brilliant in the air and his link-up play was really sharp. His performance against France in the 1986 WC QF really captured my imagination:

He would be recognized higher for sure, if he didn’t get injury before WC1982. He was a main striker for that golden generation of that Brazil team. Unfortunately, Serginho took his place and played very poorly especially the matches against Argentina and Italy. He was a starter in 1986, despite of that Zico,Falcao and Socrates were on downfall of their career(Zico and Falcao were injured and Socrates match fitness in that tournament was arguably not a professional footballer ).

 

[Pat_Mustard]

Hard luck @Gio . I hadn't voted and assumed I was losing. Like most matches at this stage there was very little if anything between the teams in terms of quality.

 

[Gio]

I was well pumped here @Pat_Mustard - think it was 7-1 until late on. Glad to see the likes of Dalglish, Gerrard and Silva get the appreciation they deserve.