Antony | Here we go! €100mill, contract until June 2027, option 'til 2028.

[meamth]

Elanga's best position isn't even right-wing and overall he's pretty limited.

We only have Pellestri and Amad whose best position is right-wing, and they have never played at this level before. I rate Amad but there's no escaping the fact he has zero experience and was nothing more than a bench option for Rangers, sometimes not even that.

Of course its a considerable risk, but like @sglowrider mentioned, our priorities lies elsewhere this season. Getting replacements for Matic and Pogba is the most important business we have to prioritise. If we can sign Antony, great. But if we don't sign him, we have to make use of the players already in the club, I'm okay with that.

Realistically, FDJ for 60m, another CDM for 30-40m, a new striker 30-50m and if we're lucky the club has more money, antony for 50m. That's almost 200m, I don't think we can hope so much.

 

[redcucumber]

Of course its a considerable risk, but like @sglowrider mentioned, our priorities lies elsewhere this season. Getting replacements for Matic and Pogba is the most important business we have to prioritise. If we can sign Antony, great. But if we don't sign him, we have to make use of the players already in the club, I'm okay with that.

Realistically, FDJ for 60m, another CDM for 30-40m, a new striker 30-50m and if we're lucky the club has more money, antony for 50m. That's almost 200m, I don't think we can hope so much.

Why would we prioritise a striker over RW? We have Ronaldo and Rashford/Martial. At RW, we have Elanga and Diallo. You say we need to replace Pogba and Matic, but we also need to replace Greenwood. Our season went to pot when we lost him. It is absolutely urgent we sort out that right side.

 

[Judas]

I think Antony being a sure fire success is far from guaranteed, but its an exciting gamble, the sort of talent the club has taken a chance on down the years. With the added stability of having his previous manager in charge, you'd like to think that would be a very helpful element.

 

[Cman]

Sure it can be argued that we should prioritise other positions first but there has to be players available that we think are of high enough quality to bring in. There’s no point bringing in a player that’s better than what we have but doesn’t have a high enough ceiling to be part of a title contending team.
We are not going to fill all the gaps in the squad this window but hopefully the player we do bring in can go on to be of a high enough quality that they don’t need replacing in 2/3 years.
There’s nobody better places to judge if Antony will be good enough than ETH so if he’s happy to spend a chunk of our budget this summer I’m good with it.

 

[Trex]

Have we entered the monitoring stage yet?

We're in the internal discussion stage.

 

[Godfather]

We're in the internal discussion stage.

Seems so. Transfers happening left and right from clubs that don't need as big an overhaul as we do. Bit frustrating but it's early doors still.

 

[Trex]

Seems so. Transfers happening left and right from clubs that don't need as big an overhaul as we do. Bit frustrating but it's early doors still.

Yea window closes on 1st sept so a lot of time left. But hopefully we should have our priority signings in when the international players are ready to join up preseason.

 

[sglowrider]

I would agree that RW isn't a priority. Antony is a good signing if we sign him, however like you mentioned, I'm also fine if we go into the season starting with Elanga.

Still think we have surplus of young wingers that should be loaned out. If we don't sign Antony I'm happy if we keep Rashford, Sancho, Elanga and Amad. Although I'm a bit unsure with Facu, as he is starting games for Uruguay.

a) I would be happy with those four. Then you throw in a few academy kids occasionally into the midfield and I would be ok too -- for his 1st season. No need to rush and sacrifice player development for silverware in the 1st season.

b) I still think we need a central striker unless ETH wants to go with the occasional non- striker formation like Pep did -- when Ronnie is given an off day. Some one on the upswing so that we can develop him when we are ready to push for silverware.

c) I think it would be tough to judge Facundo when he played for a relegated team. Imagine them park lots of buses.
He is also the youngest starter in the Uraguay team that includes Nunez. The coach there must have seen him play the past few years and thinks highly enough of him to start him.

Its clear that ETH's priority is for his team to bring the ball up from the back fast and then stay in the opposition's half as much as possible. That's a huge transition from the LVG's possession (that just stayed in the opposition's half without doing feck-all) to Jose counter-attacking approach to Ole's to now back to possession.

Thats a tough task. But clearly, ETH sees United's inability to transition from the back/defence to attack fast as our weakest capability and his first priority is buying that person or persons to do that.
The next task or buy would be players who can keep the ball and circulate to players like Antony, Sancho and Rashy. Whether he sees Bruno as one is a question. Thus a Frenkie and a Neves.

I would still like Timber as an option to transition the ball as short as he is.

I would pray to Mohammed, Buddha, Jesus and Krishna that we do land up with a possession-based team that looks like LVG's.

My heart would stop beating from the boredom. Give me Jose or Ole's mess any day than to die of the 123 passes without any purpose.

 

[We Need Another Rebuild]

Antony is a clear upgrade on our RW - Sancho is a LW in a ETH System.

Skilful, Fast, Can score & create chances.

A RW is a must, we don't have one good enough to be a starter in a Top 4 team.

Elanga was a breath of fresh air when he came in, but apart from a couple of goals, he really is limited when it comes to his ceiling, a squad option at best.

Pellistri didn't pull up any trees in La Liga, is he ever going to be the requires standard? Yes he is starting for Uruguay, can we rely on him for 20/25 games?

Amad barely played in the SPL, and when he did looked bang average at best, he might be talented but has nowhere near enough experience to be depended on.

The ability to actually stretch a defence will open up more space than a new ST, as we are easy to defend against as we only attack down the left.

 

[meamth]

a) I would be happy with those four. Then you throw in a few academy kids occasionally into the midfield and I would be ok too -- for his 1st season. No need to rush and sacrifice player development for silverware in the 1st season.

b) I still think we need a central striker unless ETH wants to go with the occasional non- striker formation like Pep did -- when Ronnie is given an off day. Some one on the upswing so that we can develop him when we are ready to push for silverware.

c) I think it would be tough to judge Facundo when he played for a relegated team. Imagine them park lots of buses.
He is also the youngest starter in the Uraguay team that includes Nunez. The coach there must have seen him play the past few years and thinks highly enough of him to start him.

Its clear that ETH's priority is for his team to bring the ball up from the back fast and then stay in the opposition's half as much as possible. That's a huge transition from the LVG's possession (that just stayed in the opposition's half without doing feck-all) to Jose counter-attacking approach to Ole's to now back to possession.

Thats a tough task. But clearly, ETH sees United's inability to transition from the back/defence to attack fast as our weakest capability and his first priority is buying that person or persons to do that.
The next task or buy would be players who can keep the ball and circulate to players like Antony, Sancho and Rashy. Whether he sees Bruno as one is a question. Thus a Frenkie and a Neves.

I would still like Timber as an option to transition the ball as short as he is.

I would pray to Mohammed, Buddha, Jesus and Krishna that we do land up with a possession-based team that looks like LVG's.

My heart would stop beating from the boredom. Give me Jose or Ole's mess any day than to die of the 123 passes without any purpose.

Agreed on all the points.

Striker is more alarming priority than RW, if Ronaldo is injured, we're fecked. Rashford isn't a striker, Martial had his chances, enough of him.

About possession tactics, we need dominating possession and high pressing to catch up with the best teams in Europe.

 

[MyOnlySolskjaer]

Those were all under LVG? Sackable offence. Great coach at his peak but he must have depended on the DOF to make his buys before coming to United.

In terms of transfers our spell with Van Gaal was the worst. Let’s not forget how he said no to Kroos.

 

[sglowrider]

Agreed on all the points.

Striker is more alarming priority than RW, if Ronaldo is injured, we're fecked. Rashford isn't a striker, Martial had his chances, enough of him.

About possession tactics, we need dominating possession and high pressing to catch up with the best teams in Europe.

I m praying ETH fixes martial but I have said before, I think he legs are gone. He has lost his turn of pace. Like falcao after his ACL op, he can't beat his many anymore.
I bet Ronald at 38 is faster than martial at 26

 

[sglowrider]

In terms of transfers our spell with Van Gaal was the worst. Let’s not forget how he said no to Kroos.

Kroos I thought was under Moyes. Lost it due to his dithering.
If it was LVG then he should be embarrassed.

 

[JPRouve]

Kroos I thought was under Moyes. Lost it due to his dithering.
If it was LVG then he should be embarrassed.

For Moyes it was Thiago and Strootman. For LVG it was Kroos, iirc they didn't get along at Bayern.

 

[Redcy]

Whilst yes we need a striker we are pretty much fecked, we need to sort out our midfield, so that means spending good money on a midfielder. If we don't we can forget any other position lets be honest. We haven't got the money to buy a world class midfielder and world class striker. With Nunez selling for 85m, Nkunku valued at 100m, Haaland obviously gone, and other options we might look at being unavailable I don't see where we will pick up a striker good enough to be in our front line, bog standard strikers are edging up north of 60m, for players that would barely be worth having. I am assuming ETH wants to bring in players who know his system to help kick start the change. De Jong is an obvious choice, with Barca needing to sell, and he is quality and can make the system work. The problem is then who does he bring in outside of that who would actually be worth having, and my guess is that he believes Antony is top quality, knows how to play the system and so will hit the ground running. Whilst raphinha knows the league he doesn't know ETH gameplan, and so would take time to bring on board, add in that he will likely cost more than Antony, and doesn't have significantly more to offer in stats or potential.

If Ajax had a centre forward worth stealing I think we would be getting him instead, Haller I imagine is someone ETH doesnt see as working here, and we know he would really like to bring in some defensive players from Ajax but that probably wont happen. So Antony coming does have some logic, my guess is that he thinks that he can utilise Ronaldo, Rashford and Martial at a pinch, or maybe use even Bruno a deep false 9. I can see however the value of bringing in players who already know how the manager wants to train and play.

 

[sglowrider]

For Moyes it was Thiago and Strootman. For LVG it was Kroos, iirc they didn't get along at Bayern.

He has lost what ever credibility thats left. Clown show.

For him to constantly passive-aggressively slagging united is a joke. Embarrassing

 

[sglowrider]

Whilst yes we need a striker we are pretty much fecked, we need to sort out our midfield, so that means spending good money on a midfielder. If we don't we can forget any other position lets be honest. We haven't got the money to buy a world class midfielder and world class striker. With Nunez selling for 85m, Nkunku valued at 100m, Haaland obviously gone, and other options we might look at being unavailable I don't see where we will pick up a striker good enough to be in our front line, bog standard strikers are edging up north of 60m, for players that would barely be worth having. I am assuming ETH wants to bring in players who know his system to help kick start the change. De Jong is an obvious choice, with Barca needing to sell, and he is quality and can make the system work. The problem is then who does he bring in outside of that who would actually be worth having, and my guess is that he believes Antony is top quality, knows how to play the system and so will hit the ground running. Whilst raphinha knows the league he doesn't know ETH gameplan, and so would take time to bring on board, add in that he will likely cost more than Antony, and doesn't have significantly more to offer in stats or potential.

If Ajax had a centre forward worth stealing I think we would be getting him instead, Haller I imagine is someone ETH doesnt see as working here, and we know he would really like to bring in some defensive players from Ajax but that probably wont happen. So Antony coming does have some logic, my guess is that he thinks that he can utilise Ronaldo, Rashford and Martial at a pinch, or maybe use even Bruno a deep false 9. I can see however the value of bringing in players who already know how the manager wants to train and play.

Decisions, decisions. No easy and obvious options really with so much to do with a limited budget and especially time due to expectations.

 

[JPRouve]

He has lost what ever credibility thats left. Clown show.

For him to constantly passive-aggressively slagging united is a joke. Embarrassing

Have a look at his dutch signings for Barcelona, it's amazing. But LVG is an example of why I strongly believe that head coaches have no business "building their own team", this also applies to someone like Mourinho. These managers are genuinely brilliant when they focus on the training ground and when they have to dig into their bag of tricks. Neither have a clue about the players they like, don't like or need.

 

[Jonny Prescott]

I think he would be a great rotational player for Sancho now that Dan James has gone. The question is would he adapt to the PL and be able to prove himself? That remains to be seen. However since EtH has basically made us linked with most of the Ajax top players, I wouldn't be surprised if a deal would surface at some point. I think he is a very exciting winger though.

 

[Bondi77]

I think if we get him, Sancho will be used centrally.

People are massively underestimating the importance of Rashford next season, and him having a good season is absolutely crucial to us having a good season, as he’s the only senior wide player who can be relied upon for both output and also having rapid speed to stretch opponents.

Rashford in any sort of decent form has to be a lock on the left for me. I think that causes Sancho to put pressure on Bruno, as well as competing with Antony on the right if signed.

Rashford at his best is easily our best option on the LW.

 

[Redcy]

Decisions, decisions. No easy and obvious options really with so much to do with a limited budget and especially time due to expectations.

Agreed and this is why I think he will focus on players he thinks he can get, who are able to take the step up and know his system, along side a few side buys that he believes he can get on the cheap that he could mould in. My guess is that we will hold off on strikers, see how Ronaldo/Rashford/Martial go and then take some urgent decisions in January if necessary to bring in some kind of loan player. Its not ideal, but with limited budgets and the whole team needing surgery I can see why he might be tempted to move for players he has trained. In fact I can see VDB actually coming back and being a decent player when he knows what his job is.

If ETH had balls the size of those strong man granite things he might even consider selling Bruno and using the money to get some other players he feels he really needs. That would however take really huge cajones.

 

[Bondi77]

Yeah that's fair, I don't think being compared with Nani should be a negative though. When most do that I think we're all thinking of the Nani during 2010 and 2011 which was a very fantastic player.

A player with one of the best techniques I have seen at the club.

 

[devilish]

We really need to be shrewd. For example 2 CMs is our absolute priority. However I wonder if we have to retain the CM we've currently got. Take McTominay for example. He's EPL, he's extremely hyped and he can play in 3 positions (CB, B2B, DM). Should we sell him for 40m and add Sangare for 31m? Should we sell Fred for 35m and Periera for another 10m and add Enzo Fernandez for 19m? A midfield made up of Sangare, Fernandez, Garner, De Jong, VDB and Bruno look far more solid then what we've got and it would cost us just around 35m (if we value De Jong at 70m).

The same can be said in other areas such as the forward line. We probably can get away with a backup striker this season. Well both Belotti and Nketiah are free agents. On the right we can go for. Regarding the flanks if we're adding Antony then assuming Sancho is the other first team, then we'll need to have a serious talk on whom we should retain between Martial, Rashford and Elanga. Cause we won't be keeping each of those players happy on the bench especially if Greenwood returns.

 

[ForeverRed1]

Antony. Bruno/Eriksen. Sancho

Ronnie/other striker


wouldn’t be bad at all next season, especially with a good midfield behind them.

 

[sglowrider]

Have a look at his dutch signings for Barcelona, it's amazing. But LVG is an example of why I strongly believe that head coaches have no business "building their own team", this also applies to someone like Mourinho. These managers are genuinely brilliant when they focus on the training ground and when they have to dig into their bag of tricks. Neither have a clue about the players they like, don't like or need.

He brought in a lot of dutch or dutch based players for sure. There is a certain profile of players that seem to do well with these Dutch system-based managers like LVG. They need to be subservient to the system or/and the coach.

But the older star players usually have a falling out with him.

 

[sglowrider]

Agreed and this is why I think he will focus on players he thinks he can get, who are able to take the step up and know his system, along side a few side buys that he believes he can get on the cheap that he could mould in. My guess is that we will hold off on strikers, see how Ronaldo/Rashford/Martial go and then take some urgent decisions in January if necessary to bring in some kind of loan player. Its not ideal, but with limited budgets and the whole team needing surgery I can see why he might be tempted to move for players he has trained. In fact I can see VDB actually coming back and being a decent player when he knows what his job is.

If ETH had balls the size of those strong man granite things he might even consider selling Bruno and using the money to get some other players he feels he really needs. That would however take really huge cajones.

What gets my goat is people seem to slag off every decision the club or the managers do. Its a tough job -- we only look at individual threads or line items.

Before people start slagging off managers, assistant managers as though they are thick and unqualified -- they need to imagine what its like to take all the threads into account -- esp United's and then amalgamate them in their heads and then make decisions and then consider the threads of the General Football section (the competition or business of football) and then make a plan, strategy, priorities and then try and execute it with all those issues or threads in mind.

Its like a spreadsheet. Each line item is an individual thread. Then entire spreadsheet is the business of football including the management of Manchester United.

 

[JPRouve]

He brought in a lot of dutch or dutch based players for sure. There is a certain profile of players that seem to do well with these Dutch system-based managers like LVG. They need to be subservient to the system or/and the coach.

But the older star players usually have a falling out with him.

By amazing, I meant amazingly poor. And no there isn't really a profile of players, when things work for these dutch managers or players it's based on the coach adapting not about the players having a profile. The only thing that actually matter is to have technically sound players but that's true for anyone at top level.

We have built a myth around profiles that doesn't really exist for top managers.

 

[sglowrider]

By amazing, I meant amazingly poor. And no there isn't really a profile of players, when things work for these dutch managers or players it's based on the coach adapting not about the players having a profile. The only thing that actually matter is to have technically sound players but that's true for anyone at top level.

We have built a myth around profiles that doesn't really exist for top managers.

It will be interesting to see which players have better sell-on values -- Pep's or Klopps? The Michels possession-based system or the Granddaddy Ralf's geggenpress method.

Then who or which system whose careers were more durable or successful after leaving the two respective managers.

 

[Redcy]

What gets my goat is people seem to slag off every decision the club or the managers do. Its a tough job -- we only look at individual threads or line items.

Before people start slagging off managers, assistant managers as though they are thick and unqualified -- they need to imagine what its like to take all the threads into account -- esp United's and then amalgamate them in their heads and then make decisions and then consider the threads of the General Football section (the competition or business of football) and then make a plan, strategy, priorities and then try and execute it with all those issues or threads in mind.

Its like a spreadsheet. Each line item is an individual thread. Then entire spreadsheet is the business of football including the management of Manchester United.

My biggest hope is that ETH isn't butchered by the board with "amazing" signings that don't fit his system, I would rather he tries to use the strikers we have, or even utilise Sancho/Bruno in there if he thinks they can do the job, than us get some random striker because he is available, or some random old style signing we used to make. We picked a manager who has a style and creates a system, give him access to players and scouts who can help identify players of a particular type that he can specify.

 

[sglowrider]

My biggest hope is that ETH isn't butchered by the board with "amazing" signings that don't fit his system, I would rather he tries to use the strikers we have, or even utilise Sancho/Bruno in there if he thinks they can do the job, than us get some random striker because he is available, or some random old style signing we used to make. We picked a manager who has a style and creates a system, give him access to players and scouts who can help identify players of a particular type that he can specify.

Just like in the previous thread with JPRouve, is it the profile of the player or the system that makes the club that the manager manages successful?
The other thing is that since we have Murtogh and Fletch the club ought to be in a better position to go after the right player.

The concern with getting a player that's specific to a manager's system is that its a huge risk.

What is the manager craps out? LVG definitely got more players that he asked for that he would like to admit. But when he left, the players were dog shite for the next manager. And as JP said, LVG wasn't great at picking players to start with.

This is why you understand some club's approach of getting the best star players they can afford and then hope it all works out. Its 3D chess.

 

[Redcy]

I think that is the case if you are going with LVG/Mourinho, etc managers who are player managers, who do best by controlling their team and getting the best out of what they have. My feeling is that like a Pep, or even Klopp, ETH is more of a guy who creates a system and puts players into the holes. It should not be about specific players, but the manager should say I want a striker like this and you allow the scouts/etc to find those players, probably at various tiers, i.e. world class, EPL proven, young starlet, etc.

 

[JPRouve]

Just like in the previous thread with JPRouve, is it the profile of the player or the system that makes the club that the manager manages successful?
The other thing is that since we have Murtogh and Fletch the club ought to be in a better position to go after the right player.

The concern with getting a player that's specific to a manager's system is that its a huge risk.

What is the manager craps out? LVG definitely got more players that he asked for that he would like to admit. But when he left, the players were dog shite for the next manager. And as JP said, LVG wasn't great at picking players to start with.

This is why you understand some club's approach of getting the best star players they can afford and then hope it all works out. Its 3D chess.

To answer that question I like to look at Mourinho, Klopp and Guardionla over the past 15-17 years.

Mourinho's Chelsea was based on superior athleticism and incredible discipline but his Inter team was based on highly technical players that were extremely smart, they were very adaptable. Guardiola's Barcelona was a highly technical team and not very direct, his Bayern team was a lot more physical and a lot more direct compared to his Barcelona's team and at City he has floated between these two team and players profiles since 2016, from one season to the other depending on form and the players at his disposal he adapts. Klopp is the wildest, his best Liverpool team has nothing to do with his best Dortmund team, he has both adapted to the fact that he has different players and that he manages a bigger club, Liverpool are a high rate possession team when Dortmund were a high risk fast transition team that was between 49% and 54% possession, Liverpool at their best have been between 58 % and 63% possession rate, his teams don't defend the same way, they don't use possession or space similarly and yet they are as good.

 

[DevilRed]

If we get this lad, then I think Rashford will be used up front.

Where he has been at his best before.

Not sure why we insisted on punting him out to the wing. He was always a striker coming through our ranks.

 

[JPRouve]

Where he has been at his best before.

Not sure why we insisted on punting him out to the wing. He was always a striker coming through our ranks.

If I remember correctly LVG used Martial as an inside forward and Rashford as a striker but Mourinho moved Rashford to the wing in order to make room for Ibrahimovic and also changed both players roles and use them in a role that is closer to traditional wingers.

 

[sglowrider]

To answer that question I like to look at Mourinho, Klopp and Guardionla over the past 15-17 years.

Mourinho's Chelsea was based on superior athleticism and incredible discipline but his Inter team was based on highly technical players that were extremely smart, they were very adaptable. Guardiola's Barcelona was a highly technical team and not very direct, his Bayern team was a lot more physical and a lot more direct compared to his Barcelona's team and at City he has floated between these two team and players profiles since 2016, from one season to the other depending on form and the players at his disposal he adapts. Klopp is the wildest, his best Liverpool team has nothing to do with his best Dortmund team, he has both adapted to the fact that he has different players and that he manages a bigger club, Liverpool are a high rate possession team when Dortmund were a high risk fast transition team that was between 49% and 54% possession, Liverpool at their best have been between 58 % and 63% possession rate, his teams don't defend the same way, they don't use possession or space similarly and yet they are as good.

Interesting points -- gives a lot historical perspective I was unaware of.

If I was City looking back if I was the owner of City would have preferred Klopp over Pep then. It would help change the bland brand that is ''Manchester City'' with their boring sky blue, middle-of-the-road perception to one of heavy metal, rock & roll football. (Liverpool has history and doesn't need any change in perception.)

 

[DevilRed]

If I remember correctly LVG used Martial as an inside forward and Rashford as a striker but Mourinho moved Rashford to the wing in order to make room for Ibrahimovic and also changed both players roles and use them in a role that is closer to traditional wingers.

Yea I remember similar. He has been moved around the forward line alot. In some ways that may have hurt his progression.

Ole played him upfront before we brought in Cavani. He was so good for spells. Especially that one goal against spurs where he made an incredible diagonal run to carve them open.

Hopefully in ETH's system he will get closer to the goal where he is most effective. I don't count his spell under Rangnick as the norm. He has far more to give under a better manager.

 

[MyOnlySolskjaer]

Kroos I thought was under Moyes. Lost it due to his dithering.
If it was LVG then he should be embarrassed.

Moyes after spending months pressing for unattainable targets like Bale, Fabregas had managed to do all the ground work to sign Kroos before he was sacked. Van Gaal vetoed.

 

[sglowrider]

Moyes after spending months pressing for unattainable targets like Bale, Fabregas had managed to do all the ground work to sign Kroos before he was sacked. Van Gaal vetoed.

And people think the last few years are the worst its been for United?

 

[Mickeza]

And people think the last few years are the worst its been for United?

We’re definitely slightly less incompetent than we were. The competition has increased hugely though. Swings and roundabouts.

 

[Idxomer]

Yea I remember similar. He has been moved around the forward line alot. In some ways that may have hurt his progression.

Ole played him upfront before we brought in Cavani. He was so good for spells. Especially that one goal against spurs where he made an incredible diagonal run to carve them open.

Hopefully in ETH's system he will get closer to the goal where he is most effective. I don't count his spell under Rangnick as the norm. He has far more to give under a better manager.

When? He played him exclusively on the wing starting from his first full season except for that period when Martial was injured and he was terrible as the main striker.