Geopolitics

[Cheimoon]

There were almost two internets. Then, the CIA destroyed one.
While America made the network that would become the internet, programmers in Chile were building a vision of their own.

In Mashable’s new three-part episode of our series on the digital age's dark side, Kernel Panic, we explore a startlingly advanced computer network developed in Salvador Allende's Chile of the 1970s. Called Project Cybersyn, the network was a centerpiece of Allende's effort to modernize the Chilean economy. It was developed in parallel with the American networks that would become the internet, at a moment in time in which President Nixon was trying to undermine the Chilean economy and overthrow Allende, the first democratically elected Marxist leader in Latin America.

Cybersyn, designed by a farthinking British theorist named Stafford Beer and run by a cadre of young revolutionary programmers, was an astonishing success. Using little more than old telephone wires and mothballed pre-war machinery, the Chilean program managed to build out a real-time data stream very much like the social media newsfeed of today, watching and monitoring the country's industry from a retro-futuristic control room in the capital.

For two years, the programmers used Cybersyn to battle strikes and attempted coups until finally, in September of 1973, Allende was overthrown by a military junta led by Augusto Pinochet. The dream of a stable, modernized Chile died with Allende, and so did the potential for a second internet, built in parallel and evolved under a totally different system of information sharing.

Mashable speaks to Fernando Flores who served under Allende as finance minister before spending three years in prison under Pinochet, as well as Raul Espejo, operational director of Project Cybersyn, and the family of Stafford Beer to take you inside the dream and disappointment of Project Cybersyn.

Part 1

Part 2

Part 3

https://mashable.com/article/project-cybersyn-chile-kernel-panic

I read the Wiki about this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Cybersyn

It's interesting - but I'm not sure why it's in this thread? Sounds like it would rather be something for the Economy thread (given the system served to develop a national economy; it was also abandoned because Chile went in the complete opposite direction economically under Pinochet) or the Cool Science and Tech thread.

 

[VorZakone]

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[neverdie]

that's pretty basic stuff. hedging and balancing. look to the historical build up to world war one. russia and france sought an alliance because each was a border power of the german state in the middle. a de facto border for the russians. germany could only do so much because britain had one goal, to prevent any one power from achieving complete control in europe. to this end, the british continuously supported the french even though they were technically in competition because the french acted as a buffer against the germans.

that's how this stuff has always been done. states make alliances and maintain strategic ambiguity even within those alliances. they hedge and balance against each other to protect their own interests. iran hedges against chinese influence by opening its markets to the west via the nuclear deal. it hedges against american influence by opening its markets to the chinese bri. add support for russian military operations and other regional issues, like lebanon and paramilitaries as hedges against israel, which is america to iran.

when a state is isolated, then it is in trouble because it has no means of playing another state off whichever state would seek to exploit it. and despite whatever people have been told, russia is far from isolated, at least in the non-western world.

also read the turkish activity during this whole thing. they've been playing states off each other at a faster rate than anyone else from what i can tell. they were given a massive strategic boost because of europe's self-isolation from russia which makes turkey the only proper route into asia. what does it benefit turkey for russia to return to the status quo? it doesn't. so they cooperate with russia on all kinds of issues despite selling drones to ukraine. they normalize relations with israel despite also seeking to normalize relations with syria. basically, erdogan's government is normalzing relations with two client states, each opposed to each other in the grand scheme, one being american backed and the other backed by russia. and he can do that because of the historical moment he finds himself in.

so i'd be cautious about turkish "peace-talks". peace doesn't benefit turkey.

 

[VorZakone]

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[neverdie]

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On 5 September, US President Joe Biden told Israeli officials that a revived nuclear deal with Iran wouldn’t prevent Tel Aviv from attacking Iranian nuclear sites or targets inside Syria

“Israel is entitled to defend itself without any limitations,” Biden told Israeli interim Prime Minister Yair Lapid recently, according to an unnamed US official who spoke with the Wall Street Journal (WSJ).

Biden’s support for Israeli attacks on regional countries such as Syria and Iraq comes as officials from Tel Aviv have increased their efforts to sabotage the revival of the deal.

 

[Beans]

Shouldn't the Israeli leader be the one claiming that to the US President? The obsession with Israel by both parties is bizarre. It's like they see Israel as part of the US.

 

[VorZakone]

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[2cents]

Not sure if it warrants its own thread yet, something to keep an eye on:

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[hasanejaz88]

Recently Russia was bombing civilian infrastructure such as power lines, leading to blackouts in parts of Ukraine, and it was being called a war crime.

I then remembered the US intentionally destroyed Iraqi water treatment plants, leading to unsafe drinking water in the country and kids dying from disease, no one called those war crimes or arrested those involved.

 

[JPRouve]

Recently Russia was bombing civilian infrastructure such as power lines, leading to blackouts in parts of Ukraine, and it was being called a war crime.

I then remembered the US intentionally destroyed Iraqi water treatment plants, leading to unsafe drinking water in the country and kids dying from disease, no one called those war crimes or arrested those involved.

I don't remember how widespread it was but I do remember Bush and Rumsfeld being called war criminals, not only because Iraq was seen as a strange target in the context of 9/11 but also due to actions that you described. And from what I can see time has only cemented that view.

 

[The United]

Recently Russia was bombing civilian infrastructure such as power lines, leading to blackouts in parts of Ukraine, and it was being called a war crime.

I then remembered the US intentionally destroyed Iraqi water treatment plants, leading to unsafe drinking water in the country and kids dying from disease, no one called those war crimes or arrested those involved.

So, it is not fair that Putin and co being accused of committing war crimes?

 

[hasanejaz88]

I don't remember how widespread it was but I do remember Bush and Rumsfeld being called war criminals, not only because Iraq was seen as a strange target in the context of 9/11 but also due to actions that you described. And from what I can see time has only cemented that view.

This is actually referring to the Gulf War when they hit their treatment plants and then put in sanctions that prevented import of medical supplies to help people bring effected by the unclean water.

It's fine being called war criminals but no one has been jailed for those crimes.

So, it is not fair that Putin and co being accused of committing war crimes?

It's definitely fair and should be said as such, but hypocritical given other war criminals from the US aren't criticized and roaming free.

 

[JPRouve]

This is actually referring to the Gulf War when they hit their treatment plants and then put in sanctions that prevented import of medical supplies to help people bring effected by the unclean water.

It's fine being called war criminals but no one has been jailed for those crimes.



It's definitely fair and should be said as such, but hypocritical given other war criminals from the US aren't criticized and roaming free.

You specifically mentioned how people called Russia's actions, the US actions have been called similarly in the past. Now regarding your second point which goes further than your former point, the US are without a doubt the strongest military power in the world and they don't recognize the ICC, so who is supposed to put these leaders on trial and jail them? It won't be the US themselves the same way Russia aren't jailing their own leaders unless it serves their interests.

 

[africanspur]

Recently Russia was bombing civilian infrastructure such as power lines, leading to blackouts in parts of Ukraine, and it was being called a war crime.

I then remembered the US intentionally destroyed Iraqi water treatment plants, leading to unsafe drinking water in the country and kids dying from disease, no one called those war crimes or arrested those involved.

So is the point that western media is hypocritical? Because yep that is clearly the case.

But I don't really understand your point about jail and walking free. Unless I've missed something, Putin isn't in jail. No major politician (Pro the war) has been jailed in Russia. And this war isn't going to end with Putin in a Ukrainian or international jail either.

It's going to end with Putin still in power after losing the war, Putin still in power after somehow winning the war or Putin dead, most likely deposed internally.

He just isn't going to end up in a non Russian jail though.

 

[2cents]

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[VidaRed]

Recently Russia was bombing civilian infrastructure such as power lines, leading to blackouts in parts of Ukraine, and it was being called a war crime.

I then remembered the US intentionally destroyed Iraqi water treatment plants, leading to unsafe drinking water in the country and kids dying from disease, no one called those war crimes or arrested those involved.

The world is not fair and never was, its about time you realised that. The american way is to bomb the essential infrastructure and then roll in, they spin it by saying its collateral damage.

You pointing out their hypocracy won't change there ways.

 

[VidaRed]

So, it is not fair that Putin and co being accused of committing war crimes?

The american mainstream media is calling for putin to be tried and jailed for war crimes.

@hasanejaz88 is asking that they should do the same for bush and since bush is in america whats stopping them from putting him on trial ? After all the rule of law prevails in america, does it not ?

 

[The United]

The american mainstream media is calling for putin to be tried and jailed for war crimes.

@hasanejaz88 is asking that they should do the same for bush and since bush is in america whats stopping them from putting him on trial ? After all the rule of law prevails in america, does it not ?

They should.

You are taking the piss with asking those questions.

 

[hasanejaz88]

They should.

You are taking the piss with asking those questions.

What about the second part of the post, which has been the bloody point from the start.

I can't understand the point being made that US would never try their own leaders for war crimes or change anything because they are the strongest military in the world, so there isn't any point in discussing this.

Well, by that argument, why don't we stop discussing other brutal regimes like Saudi? Why should they suddenly stop the dictatorship of their people and have democracy? Or stop the brutal bombing of Yemen, and sponsorship of Sunni terror, given they still hasn't vast influence over the West, who are actively arming them at the same time? I mean, they assassinated an American citizen and the US won't do anything about it.

So we just end these type of discussions all together?

 

[RedTiger]

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Of course Kazakhstan doesn't support the annexation of Donbas, considering they also have Russian speaking areas in their country.

 

[The United]

What about the second part of the post, which has been the bloody point from the start.

I can't understand the point being made that US would never try their own leaders for war crimes or change anything because they are the strongest military in the world, so there isn't any point in discussing this.

Well, by that argument, why don't we stop discussing other brutal regimes like Saudi? Why should they suddenly stop the dictatorship of their people and have democracy? Or stop the brutal bombing of Yemen, and sponsorship of Sunni terror, given they still hasn't vast influence over the West, who are actively arming them at the same time? I mean, they assassinated an American citizen and the US won't do anything about it.

So we just end these type of discussions all together?

A few thoughts occurred to me while reading your post and that other post.

1). Why do you (and the other guy) appear so agitated?
2). I never said you couldn't discuss it; it was just a question. You answered it, and I left it there.
3. Am I being mistaken for someone who would defend some of the hypocrisy of what US leaders have done in the past?

Bizarre ranting.

 

[RedDevilQuebecois]

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[2cents]

 

[2cents]

The Cafe geopol hands need to up their game:

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[ShoePolish]

Post soviet countries duking it out now that Russia has been largely demilitarized. How long until Moldova and Georgia decide to reclaim lost territories? How long until it spills in Russia proper?

 

[2cents]

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This has good info on the seven Tajik and Uzbek enclaves surrounded by Kyrgyzstan. This round of clashes seems to have started on the border of the Vorukh enclave and subsequently spread -https://caravanistan.com/kyrgyzstan/south/ferghana-valley-enclaves/

 

[WPMUFC]

I see Italy has decided to shit the bed again

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[VidaRed]

The Cafe geopol hands need to up their game:

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This happening just as sco summit about to begin, then large protests happening in iran just as they shipped drones to russia.

Coincidence ? I think not. The world powers are making chess moves trying to weaken the other.

 

[VidaRed]

 

[neverdie]

most of his speeches function as a kind of summary. formed of historical narrative, the events depicted are truthful but you can make obvious allowances for the narrative focus.

1. he traces the colonial legacy of the west.
2. the downfall of the ussr.
3. the downfall of western hegemony.

his own embedded rhetorical manipulation is at work, too, as how can you criticize all the things the west has done and continues to do yet replicate that same colonial policy in ukraine? his speeches are clever whatever you think of them in terms of truth value. they are clever because there is a lot of truth in them, in fact, but also because it distorts some of this truth to mount an offense. he doesn't waste words. a lot of what he says will resonate beyond europe and america and even within. it's the colonial stuff and the very real promise of multipolarity and the end of unipolarity that will resonate mostly beyond europe and america, and it's the criticisms of the ruling classes of these two continents which will resonate within. on this second group, putin's style is "something for everyone". targets both left and right, through conservatism and anti-imperialism at the same time.

 

[Vidyoyo]

Not sure when this was produced but FT has an interesting podcast series on Xi Jinping: https://www.economist.com/theprincepod

 

[Giggsyking]

So, it is not fair that Putin and co being accused of committing war crimes?

By American media? They have to start with their own war criminals first. You just can't cherry pick war criminals according to your agenda.

 

[Giggsyking]

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[Beans]

By American media? They have to start with their own war criminals first. You just can't cherry pick war criminals according to your agenda.

No, you don't have to clean hands to make an accurate observation, that's a logical fallacy. The character of the speaker is irrelevant to the validity of the argument. That is, if it's a good argument, being spoken by an unreliable person doesn't make it false.

US officials should be tried for war crimes. So should Russian officials.

 

[Giggsyking]

No, you don't have to clean hands to make an accurate observation, that's a logical fallacy. The character of the speaker is irrelevant to the validity of the argument. That is, if it's a good argument, being spoken by an unreliable person doesn't make it false.

US officials should be tried for war crimes. So should Russian officials.

I would not take the word of US media tool on any political subject. Anything coming out from their mouths is agenda driven. There are multiple more trustworthy media outlets that I would rather listen too.

 

[The United]

By American media? They have to start with their own war criminals first. You just can't cherry pick war criminals according to your agenda.

So, it is not fair?

 

[711]

No, you don't have to clean hands to make an accurate observation, that's a logical fallacy. The character of the speaker is irrelevant to the validity of the argument. That is, if it's a good argument, being spoken by an unreliable person doesn't make it false.

US officials should be tried for war crimes. So should Russian officials.

Well put, if wasted.

 

[Giggsyking]

So, it is not fair?

Fair if a Swedish or a Norwegian media call for it. American media calling for it is just hypocrisy.

 

[Raoul]

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Do you think Arab states, whose governments are increasingly friendlier with the Israelis and increasingly indifferent to the Palestinian issue, will go for this ?

 

[hasanejaz88]

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Don't bring politics into sport.

Also I doubt they'll do it since they are getting very chummy with Israel lately and wouldn't want to anger them.