I didnt say a thing about Messi. Just meant that Serie A was the best league back then and you pointed it like it was some kind of farmers league. Its not nostalgia, its a fact.
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Who has had the better international career? Messi or Ronaldo?
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik @Rood and Imran @Annihilate Now! start with the good news by celebrating Manchester United Women's emphatic FA Cup win over Spurs at Wembley and the future of manager Marc Skinner.
Then it's the bad news and the ever worsening form of our Men with losses to Arsenal and Palace.
Finally the main debate - ETH Out now or keep him until the end of the season - if not longer. Are you Team Nik or Team Imran?
Napoli 2 titles has more significance than most league titles won by Bayern,Real,PSG, and Barca (teams that constantly dominate their league) considering those are the only league titles they won in Italy.
Plus, the obsession with titles as measurement how great a player was is ridiculous, Platini 'only' won 2 league titles with Juventus, while someone like Dybala has won 5 for example.
I’ve read a lot of dumb posts about footballers in comparison to Messi and Cristiano. But downplaying Maradona’s stint at Napoli takes the cake 
Yeah, exactly, that's why the last Copa planned to be organized in Argentina was given to Brazil in the last minute to make it easier for Messi to win at Maracana
https://soccer.nbcsports.com/2021/05/31/copa-america-brazil-argentina-2021/
I suggest you see your doctor so that he re-adjusts your copium amount with what Messi is doing in WC now as we are all concerned..
As Italian champions, they failed miserably in European Cup with Maradona..I’ve read a lot of dumb posts about footballers in comparison to Messi and Cristiano. But downplaying Maradona’s stint at Napoli takes the cake
Myth. Back then footballer was less athletics you had fat footballers all over the park.
The formations and tactical was also lacking it's simply beat your man and score.
I'm not saying it's shit back then but the way people give too much credit as if they're pinnacle of football is daft.
No... 90s defender arent better than todays defender. That's a myth to hype players like maradonna
I too watch serie A in the 90s..most of the times it's a dross and boring match. There's a reason why EPL took over serie A. They're more attractive than the cattenacio every touch is a foul galore
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CR7 fanboys hiding in the shadows cry wanking over posibility of Messi lifting WC.
But, as soon as France wins in the final, there will be flood of them preaching about great Cristiano and mocking Messi.
But, as soon as France wins in the final, there will be flood of them preaching about great Cristiano and mocking Messi.
So bad of a post its actually good.
It’s a really useless metric these days as the gulf in quality between teams is so massive. The playing field is as uneven as it’s ever been.
Any top player can move to one of the select top-tier teams and is guaranteed trophies, and more often than not guaranteed stats as those teams will generally wipe the floor with the rest. There’s not as much responsibility on the top players to drive their teams to success as there once was, as those teams are absolutely littered with quality now.
But won the UEFA cup. A tournament that meant a hell of a lot more back then. Ridiculous to downplay his achievements at Napoli. He’s a god in Naples for a reason.
| Ronaldo | Apps | Goals | Assists | Minutes | Goals per App | Minutes to Goal | Assists per App | Minutes to Assist | GA per App | Minutes to GA |
| Confed Cup | 4 | 2 | 1 | 390 | 0,50 | 195,00 | 0,25 | 390,00 | 0,75 | 130,00 |
| Euro Qualifier | 35 | 31 | 3 | 3030 | 0,89 | 97,74 | 0,09 | 1010,00 | 0,97 | 89,12 |
| Euro | 25 | 14 | 7 | 2154 | 0,56 | 153,86 | 0,28 | 307,71 | 0,84 | 102,57 |
| WC Qualifier | 47 | 36 | 12 | 4031 | 0,77 | 111,97 | 0,26 | 335,92 | 1,02 | 83,98 |
| WC | 22 | 8 | 2 | 1764 | 0,36 | 220,50 | 0,09 | 882,00 | 0,45 | 176,40 |
| Nations League | 11 | 7 | 2 | 919 | 0,64 | 131,29 | 0,18 | 459,50 | 0,82 | 102,11 |
| Friendly | 52 | 20 | 9 | 3284 | 0,38 | 164,20 | 0,17 | 364,89 | 0,56 | 113,24 |
| Competitive | 144 | 98 | 27 | 12288 | 0,68 | 125,39 | 0,19 | 455,11 | 0,87 | 98,30 |
| Friendly | 52 | 20 | 9 | 3284 | 0,38 | 164,20 | 0,17 | 364,89 | 0,56 | 113,24 |
| Total | 196 | 118 | 36 | 15572 | 0,60 | 131,97 | 0,18 | 432,56 | 0,79 | 101,12 |
Ronaldo: 17 penalties scored, 10 free-kicks scored
| Messi | Apps | Goals | Assists | Minutes | Goals per App | Minutes to Goal | Assists per App | Minutes to Assist | GA per App | Minutes to GA |
| Finalissima | 1 | 0 | 2 | 90 | 0,00 | 2,00 | 45,00 | 2,00 | 45,00 | |
| Copa America | 34 | 13 | 17 | 2905 | 0,38 | 223,46 | 0,50 | 170,88 | 0,88 | 96,83 |
| WC Qualifier | 60 | 28 | 10 | 5047 | 0,47 | 180,25 | 0,17 | 504,70 | 0,63 | 132,82 |
| WC | 25 | 11 | 8 | 2194 | 0,44 | 199,45 | 0,32 | 274,25 | 0,76 | 115,47 |
| Friendly | 51 | 44 | 16 | 3977 | 0,86 | 90,39 | 0,31 | 248,56 | 1,18 | 66,28 |
| Competitive | 120 | 52 | 37 | 10236 | 0,43 | 196,85 | 0,31 | 276,65 | 0,74 | 115,01 |
| Friendly | 51 | 44 | 16 | 3977 | 0,86 | 90,39 | 0,31 | 248,56 | 1,18 | 66,28 |
| Total | 171 | 96 | 53 | 14213 | 0,56 | 148,05 | 0,31 | 268,17 | 0,87 | 95,39 |
Messi: 22 penalties scored, 9 free-kicks scored
Who they played against in major competitions («» means they didn't play, [] means it was a 3rd place game):
| Ronaldo | Group Stage | Knock-outs |
| Euro 2004 | Greece, Russia, Spain | England, Netherlands, Greece |
| WC 2006 | Angola, Iran, «Mexico» | Netherlands, England, France, [Germany] |
| Euro 2008 | Turkey, Czech Republic, «Switzerland» | Germany |
| WC 2010 | Ivory Coast, North Korea, Brazil | Spain |
| Euro 2012 | Germany, Denmark, Netherlands | Czech Republic, Spain |
| WC 2014 | Germany, United States, Ghana | |
| Euro 2016 | Iceland, Austria, Hungary | Poland, Croatia, Wales, France |
| WC 2018 | Spain, Morocco, Iran | Uruguay |
| Euro 2020 | Hungary, Germany, France | Belgium |
| WC 2022 | Ghana, Uruguay, South Korea | Switzerland, Morocco |
| Euro | GS | R16 | QF | SF | F |
| Teams faced (goals, assists) | Czech Republic (1,1) France (2,0) Germany (1,1) Greece (1,0) Hungary (2,0) Hungary (2,1) Netherlands (2,0) Austria (0,0) Denmark (0,0) Germany (0,0) Iceland (0,0) Russia (0,1) Spain (0,0) Turkey (0,0) | Croatia (0,1) Belgium (0,0) | Czech Republic (1,0) England (0,0) Germany (0,0) Poland (0,0) | Netherlands (1,1) Wales (1,1) Spain (0,0) | Greece (0,0) France (0,0) |
| Apps | 14 | 2 | 4 | 3 | 2 |
| Goals | 11 | 0 | 1 | 2 | 0 |
| Assists | 4 | 1 | 0 | 2 | 0 |
| Minutes | 1132 | 210 | 420 | 277 | 115 |
| WC | GS | R16 | QF | SF | 3P | F | |
| Teams faced (goals, assists) | Ghana (1,0) Iran (1,0) Morocco (1,0) North Korea (1,1) Spain (3,0) Angola (0,0) Brazil (0,0) Germany (0,0) Iran (0,0) Ivory Coast (0,0) United States (0,1) Ghana (1,0) Uruguay (0,0) South Korea (0,0) | Netherlands (0,0) Spain (0,0) Uruguay (0,0) Switzerland (0,0) | England (0,0) Morocco (0,0) | France (0,0) | Germany (0,0) | ||
| Apps | 14 | 4 | 2 | 1 | 1 | 0 | |
| Goals | 8 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | |
| Assists | 2 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | |
| Minutes | 1194 | 231 | 159 | 90 | 90 | 0 |
| Messi | Group Stage | Knock-outs |
| WC 2006 | «Ivory Coast», Serbia-Montenegro, Netherlands | Mexico, «Germany» |
| Copa 2007 | United States, Colombia, Paraguay | Peru, Mexico, Brazil |
| WC 2010 | Nigeria, South Korea, Greece | Mexico, Germany |
| Copa 2011 | Bolivia, Colombia, Costa Rica | Uruguay |
| WC 2014 | Bosnia-Herzegovina, Iran, Nigeria | Switzerland, Belgium, Netherlands, Germany |
| Copa 2015 | Paraguay, Uruguay, Jamaica | Colombia, Paraguay, Chile |
| Copa 2016 | «Chile», Panama, Bolivia | Venezuela, United States, Chile |
| WC 2018 | Iceland, Croatia, Nigeria | France |
| Copa 2019 | Colombia, Paraguay, Qatar | Venezuela, Brazil, [Chile] |
| Copa 2021 | Chile, Uruguay, Paraguay, Bolivia | Ecuador, Colombia, Brazil |
| WC 2022 | Saudi Arabia, Mexico, Poland | Australia, Netherlands, Croatia, France |
| Copa America | GS | QF | SF | 3P | F |
| Teams faced (goals, assists) | Chile (1,0) Uruguay (0,1) Paraguay (0,0) Bolivia (2,1) Bolivia (0,0) Bolivia (0,0) Colombia (0,0) Colombia (0,0) Colombia (0,0) Costa Rica (0,2) Jamaica (0,0) Panama (3,0) Paraguay (1,0) Paraguay (1,0) Paraguay (0,0) United States (0,1) Uruguay (0,0) | Ecuador (1,2) Colombia (0,0) Peru (1,0) Qatar (0,0) Uruguay (0,1) Venezuela (1,2) Venezuela (0,0) | Colombia (0,1) Brazil (0,0) Mexico (1,0) Paraguay (0,3) United States (1,2) | Chile (0,1) | Chile (0,0) Chile (0,0) Brazil (0,0) Brazil (0,0) |
| Apps | 17 | 7 | 5 | 1 | 4 |
| Goals | 8 | 3 | 2 | 0 | 0 |
| Assists | 5 | 5 | 6 | 1 | 0 |
| Minutes | 1338 | 660 | 450 | 37 | 420 |
| WC | GS | R16 | QF | SF | 3P | F |
| Teams faced (goals, assists) | Bosnia-Herzegovina (1,0) Croatia (0,0) Greece (0,0) Iceland (0,0) Iran (1,0) Netherlands (0,0) Nigeria (2,0) Nigeria (1,0) Nigeria (0,0) Serbia-Montenegro (1,1) South Korea (0,0) Saudi Arabia (1,0) Mexico (1,1) Poland (0,0) | Mexico (0,1) Mexico (0,0) Switzerland (0,1) France (0,2) Australia (1,0) | Belgium (0,0) Germany (0,0) Netherlands (1,1) | Netherlands (0,0) Croatia (1,1) | Germany (0,0) | |
| Apps | 14 | 5 | 3 | 2 | 0 | 1 |
| Goals | 8 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 0 |
| Assists | 2 | 4 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 0 |
| Minutes | 1138 | 416 | 300 | 210 | 0 | 120 |
at the end of the day, the simple fact is only one of them had trully good world cup campaigns and was actually instrumental in his team getting to final, while the other one was almost non-entity for his whole career there. this time Portugal was in great shape for Ronaldo to change that, but at this point there's very little to debate about. he simply can't compare here.
agreed, not only that, Messi had multiple memorable regional cup (Copa) campaigns leading his team to multiple finals. The guy did his job at all levels not to mention he has not only been the main goal scoring threat of Argentina but more importantly the playmaking brain of the team unlike Ronaldo who has been mainly a poacher..
Tbf this time around Ronaldo was around 38 and completely past it.
I dont disagree as regards to Maradona and Napoli, but Barcelona was also competing against the best Real Madrid team of all time. Athletico punched well above their weight as well. Winning the la liga in that era wasnt as easy as winning league with Bayern or Juventus in the same era
That aside, I'd agree the general level of physical conditioning has sharpened over the years and probably most of all in the UK.
But equally there were great athletes and super-fit teams that the greats of yester-year tore to shreds. Serie A in the 1980s and 1990s were littered with them - Vierchowod, Boniek, Gullit, Tardelli, Bagni, Matthaus, Rijkaard, Reuter, Brio, Passarella, Klinsmann, Maldini, Desailly, Caniggia, Davids, Conte, Di Livio, Thuram, Cafu, Nedved, Zanetti, Seedorf, etc. All guys whose raw athleticism or boundless cardiovascular capacity would make them stand out even today.
Two of the standout club sides from that era - Sacchi's Milan and Lippi's Juve - were very modern in their tactical approach and physical preparation. The high collective pressing, the box-to-box midfield units, the two-way hard-working strikers - these are pretty much exactly the same as how Klopp and others operate today. The way they prepared their players physically was similar to and arguably even more intensive than how modern clubs operate.
And the CL is littered with strong competitions from UK alone we had 4 strong team brimming with cash. PSG. And teams also benefit from TV money and EU meaning it's easier to assemble strong squad without limitation
And Messi era weren't littered with great players?
That aside, I'd agree the general level of physical conditioning has sharpened over the years and probably most of all in the UK.
But equally there were great athletes and super-fit teams that the greats of yester-year tore to shreds. Serie A in the 1980s and 1990s were littered with them - Vierchowod, Boniek, Gullit, Tardelli, Bagni, Matthaus, Rijkaard, Reuter, Brio, Passarella, Klinsmann, Maldini, Desailly, Caniggia, Davids, Conte, Di Livio, Thuram, Cafu, Nedved, Zanetti, Seedorf, etc. All guys whose raw athleticism or boundless cardiovascular capacity would make them stand out even today.
Two of the standout club sides from that era - Sacchi's Milan and Lippi's Juve - were very modern in their tactical approach and physical preparation. The high collective pressing, the box-to-box midfield units, the two-way hard-working strikers - these are pretty much exactly the same as how Klopp and others operate today. The way they prepared their players physically was similar to and arguably even more intensive than how modern clubs operate.
Maybe Baressi and Maldini are among the GOAT category but they'll only meet Milan 2x in the league. You just had to be better at spanking the rest.
As for the rest of the names... Great player but hardly without modern equivalent.
It's just tiring to dismiss everything else Messi or Ronaldo does with "yeah but Donna did it with fecking Napoli", no 650 goals and hundreds assist, no world cup and countless titles can beat Donna winning it with Napoli
I think even if Messi moves to Verona FC and win the serie A he'll still be getting the stick of yeah but it's not the 90s Napoli.
Winning serie A twice in that era with Napoli was comparable to winning the PL twice with, say, Spurs, today
Jesus, I can be years out of this topic and you still have the ability to make it look like Messi Argentina teammates are terrible and Cristiano was gold. Nonsense, between 2006 and 2016 Messi had easily best players around him, current Argentina has better GK, CB's and their midfield is better, at least more functional, but that might be related with tactics.
But nothing of that really matters because we can see one player is in the worst level of his carrer while the other we don't know for how many years he will keep his level. Keeping on my mind the best Cristiano version was between 2010/2015 even if prior to Real Madrid he was more fun to watch.
Just to finish the discussion, Messi is the best player of this century, at least. Cristiano is bellow that level but as usual in this there's a lot of stupid things being said like evaluating him as a football player based on his last months, this competition, or even post Real Madrid, sure after 2018 his level has been dropping.
Adding to that he only had a good WC, at least more close to his best level, in 2018, personally think his best overall tournament was Euro 2012, but the more funnier version of him was Euro 2004 even if he only started on the first 11 on the third game of the tournament.
It's the last time I will discuss this one, tournament could have been more enjoyable from a Portugal point of view if the Media instead discussing the team didn't spent the entire tournament discussing him, reason why I think it's time for him to go, it's a circus around him, stopped being football and it's more Media nonsense and Social Media madness by the haters but also by his fanboys and the people around him are toxic, they don't help him at all.
Funny that I never said Cristiano had better team mates than Messi before. Not that it matters if he had, I think it's stupid to judge players based on team accolades. The same way it will be stupid when people declare the debate as settled if Messi really wins the WC this time. What you quoted was just an observation but whatever.
Is it really true that most Portuguese fans agreed he should be dropped (due to performance issues)?
A lot of neutrals complain about his narcissistic side, do most Portuguese feel the the same about his character? Obviously, he must still be a huge national hero in Portugal, but I am just curious if the last events (WC failure, exit from United and related drama type events) changed Portuguese people's perceptions about him to some degree..
It isn't as it is made to look on International Media, but yes, there's a General Feeling that it's time to move on and close his chapter on the NT. He will always be divisive, personally I don't care that much, but yes these last months weren't good for him at all.
Well rounded team means what? Sorry if I didn't understood well your point, but I see you remain humble as ever.
Argentina always had world class attacking talent but usually lacked quality in midfield and defense. Altogether still superior teams while Portugal's talent was more evenly spread over the pitch. This time Portugal has better players altogether, probably for the first time since ages if not ever. Not sure what's controversial or arrogant about that opinion.
People actually believe this?
Ok I think we were arguing here based on bad interpretation, maybe my fault.
All goodOk I think we were arguing here based on bad interpretation, maybe my fault.
This is the main coping mechanism for Ronaldo fans
They "need to believe" things like that to hold on to life..
Will answer only in bold letters
Messi's era is filled with a lot of great players in each position, no one would argue with that.
However, the point of discussion is the players that Gio mentioned are not only normally great players, but also some of them are considered "goats" at each position too.
Matthaus- is considered the goat central midfielder. A powerful dynamo midfielder who had a Kante's stamina level, and was rated as one of the most complete midfielders of all time, this guy had it all( positioning awareness, passing, defending, shooting, leadership, tackling, athleticism)
Rijkaard- is considered the goat dm, with tremendous strength and athleticism, and could play many positions( cm, CDM, CB, or even cam) at the highest level. A complete midfielder
Passarella- is considered the goat Argentine's cb, unbeatable in the air, and scored a lot of goals.
Cafu- goat RB, tireless man, could run all the day
Gullit- The most complete footballer of all time, could play in almost every position
Thuram- one of the best defenders of all time, the gold standard of RCB position
Outside of Baresi and Maldini, there are a lot of goats that are rated as the best at their positions. If you count Maldini and Baresi in the GOAT category, you must don't forget to count players like Gullit, Matthaus, or Rijkaard in the GOAT conversation too.
The rest from I mention everyone was at least considered as top class players/world-class players and had the same or even better fitness level compared to today's players.
One of the reasons why people always praise and appreciate Maradona's achievements in Napoli is simply easy, he won the title against superstars in the best and hardest league in the world with the best players( some of them could be suggested as goat-level players).
The players that were mentioned in Gio's comment can dominate today's football without complicated adaptations both physical and mental. All of them in their prime would cost over 90+m in today's football.
(Not to mention other players that didn't have to appear in this and previous comments like Van Basten, Platini, Scirea, or a lot). You can even be called Serie A of the 80s and 90s as "the Super League".
As you can see in the youtube thumbnail, almost everyone on youtube thumbnail was a world-class/top-class player, who would be great in any era
full of superstars with incredible talents spread into various teams
Milan: Baresi, Maldini, Hataley, Wilkins Fiorentina: Gentile, Passarella, Antognoni, Socrates, Massaro Roma: Ancelotti, Falcao, Cerezo Atalanta: Donadoni, Strömberg Verona: Hans-Peter Briegel, Preben Elkear Inter: Zenga, Bergomi, Altobelli, Causio, Rummenigge Juventus: Cabrini, Scirea, Platini, Tardelli, Boniek, Paolo Rossi, Trappatoni Lazio: Laudrup, Giordano Sampdoria: Vierchowod, Souness, Trevor Francis, Vialli, Mancini Napoli: Maradona, Bertoni Torino: Junior, Aldo Serena Udinese: Zico Avellino: Ramón Diaz, Barbadillo, Angelo Colombo
( credit MatigolVidz)
( credit MatigolVidz)
Even small teams had some superstars/famous players
Full of intense physical preparation with a lot of superstars both native and foreign, Maradona won the league over a lot of great players/teams
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Yup, there's even some weird conspiracy stuff around Frances recent illnesses and how it's so convenient for Messi/Argentina
Despite Messi being on the verge of winning a world cup he has already reached two finals. He plays for a stronger team so some might say, relatively speaking, winning the Euros with Portugal is a bigger feat but after this tournament I think Messi is going to edge it simply because winning a world cup is the biggest achievement in football. Ronaldo's career with his country had been better than Messi's until recently, he has been very important for his country so I think his career has been just as good in terms relative to Portugal. It's a shame the way Portugal got knocked out this world cup but at least Messi made it to the final and it would be awesome if he manages to win it for Argentina.
Portugal have been VERY underwhelming in WC's
Stop talking sense.
It was certainly Ronaldo before but will be Messi come this time Sunday.
They do. But, well, people real dumb
I swear, there are some priceless posts in this thread. Particularly when it involves the cultists of both sides.
Not sure what the point though is in comparing for example Cafu, World Cup captain in 2002 and Passarella, World Cup captain in 1978, 24 years apart, Cafu is as relevant to Messi as he is to some of those other players listed with him.
Yes. I acknowledged that. But he won it like 2 times, while Messi is winning the League Multiple Times, including a treble, and the rest
Yes, I know it's the hardest, yes I know it's the best league at the time, but let me ask you this "What does Messi has to do to be ranked higher than Maradonna?"
It seems that no matter how many goals, which Messi scored 650? and wasn't simply a few goals more, how many more titles does Messi have to win?
And yes, for the nth time I get it, superstars, best in the world, 90s, Napoli, but Does what Messi does have no meaning? Apart from But it's Napoli in the 90s?
And I'm actually team Ronaldo, but this "Won it with Napoli 2x" is getting way overrated