How bad is our second team really?

UpWithRivers

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Joined
Dec 30, 2013
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The back up team get an absolute battering. Well not all - Malacia/Garnacho are liked. But most of the rest are more or less battered. Maguire/Wan B (except recent performances), Fred, McTominay, Lindelof mainly. And I hear the Youtubers saying that we cant survive because a couple of injuries and we're fkd. But how bad is this back up team really?

--------------------------Heaton
Wan B------Lindelof------Maguire-----Malacia
----------------Fred-------McTominay
----------------------VDB
Sancho------Weghorst------Garnacho

Sure I've taken some liberties - Presume Weghorst signs and is decent, Sancho comes back and plays well. DVB comes back etc. People can have their own versions of the back up team. But generally is it that bad? Where in the table with a proper pre-season would it come? Obviously its not realistic but in theory they play all season and are on form and fit. I would say 7-10th ish. I mean sure it could do with some upgrades but for a second team its quite good.
 
The strength of the second team is an indicator how good/bad is a club being managed really
 
We are going to play a lot of games this season especially in the next few weeks.

I think we will soon know how bad our second team is
 
UpWithRivers said:
The back up team get an absolute battering. Well not all - Malacia/Garnacho are liked. But most of the rest are more or less battered. Maguire/Wan B (except recent performances), Fred, McTominay, Lindelof mainly. And I hear the Youtubers saying that we cant survive because a couple of injuries and we're fkd. But how bad is this back up team really?

--------------------------Heaton
Wan B------Lindelof------Maguire-----Malacia
----------------Fred-------McTominay
----------------------VDB
Sancho------Weghorst------Garnacho

Sure I've taken some liberties - Presume Weghorst signs and is decent, Sancho comes back and plays well. DVB comes back etc. People can have their own versions of the back up team. But generally is it that bad? Where in the table with a proper pre-season would it come? Obviously its not realistic but in theory they play all season and are on form and fit. I would say 7-10th ish. I mean sure it could do with some upgrades but for a second team its quite good.
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Those 5 were recently part of our starting 11 so them only being squad players these days is a nice change.
 
It's great that Maguire, Lindelöf, Fred, McTominay, and Wan Bissaka are now squad players after so long of most/all of them starting every week.

They're all perfectly good enough for that as well.
 
It's honestly not bad, we've had far worse second teams in the past.
 
The entirety of that XI shouldn't really be playing together anyway. You should mix and match something like :

----------------------------- DDG
---Wan B --- Lindelof --- Martinez --- Shaw
--------------------------Casemiro
------------------Fred ----- Van De Beek
-----Sancho ---- Martial ----- Garnacho

or

---------------------- Heaton
---Dalot ---- Varane ---- Maguire ---- Malacia
----------------------McTominay
------------Bruno ------ Eriksen
----Antony ----- Weghorst ------ Rashford
 
its not bad in that many could slot into the first xi and do well if needed. but that team as an eleven would be poor. the change in our passing and play from back since we upgraded on maguire/lindelof/fred/mctominay has been extraordinary. then you have pretty much nothing from vdb. so it probably wouldnt matter that much who's up top. it would be a very tough season with that team and yes, probably an excruciating 9th place or lower, with some dismal showings
 
Skills said:
The entirety of that XI shouldn't really be playing together anyway. You should mix and match something like :

----------------------------- DDG
---Wan B --- Lindelof --- Martinez --- Shaw
--------------------------Casemiro
------------------Fred ----- Van De Beek
-----Sancho ---- Martial ----- Garnacho

or

---------------------- Heaton
---Dalot ---- Varane ---- Maguire ---- Malacia
----------------------McTominay
------------Bruno ------ Eriksen
----Antony ----- Weghorst ------ Rashford
Click to expand...
Yeah, it's not like whole 2nd team ever starts a game, that almost never happens.
 
It’s not bad, it just looks very disjointed, as a lot of second teams tend to. Performances are largely not great either because those players aren’t getting the momentum of regular game time. This makes it easier for them to look worse individually and collectively than they actually are.

We could definitely do with a quality improvement in the squad BUT it’s enough to win against lower opposition and I am pleased that we now have the consistency under Erik to play those players more.
 
UpWithRivers said:
The back up team get an absolute battering. Well not all - Malacia/Garnacho are liked. But most of the rest are more or less battered. Maguire/Wan B (except recent performances), Fred, McTominay, Lindelof mainly. And I hear the Youtubers saying that we cant survive because a couple of injuries and we're fkd. But how bad is this back up team really?

--------------------------Heaton
Wan B------Lindelof------Maguire-----Malacia
----------------Fred-------McTominay
----------------------VDB
Sancho------Weghorst------Garnacho

Sure I've taken some liberties - Presume Weghorst signs and is decent, Sancho comes back and plays well. DVB comes back etc. People can have their own versions of the back up team. But generally is it that bad? Where in the table with a proper pre-season would it come? Obviously its not realistic but in theory they play all season and are on form and fit. I would say 7-10th ish. I mean sure it could do with some upgrades but for a second team its quite good.
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It's not the worst but currently Sancho is unavailable, we have no second striker and VDB has a long-term injury. So our second team at this very moment would be awful. Still needs more quality so there could actually be real competition. A good striker, another midfielder, or 2 and a RB
 
Rotation isn't the same as playing the second team. Only some of them would play in any particular game. They are mostly good enough as squad players or subs. Butland for Heaton perhaps?
 
UpWithRivers said:
The back up team get an absolute battering. Well not all - Malacia/Garnacho are liked. But most of the rest are more or less battered. Maguire/Wan B (except recent performances), Fred, McTominay, Lindelof mainly. And I hear the Youtubers saying that we cant survive because a couple of injuries and we're fkd. But how bad is this back up team really?

--------------------------Heaton
Wan B------Lindelof------Maguire-----Malacia
----------------Fred-------McTominay
----------------------VDB
Sancho------Weghorst------Garnacho

Sure I've taken some liberties - Presume Weghorst signs and is decent, Sancho comes back and plays well. DVB comes back etc. People can have their own versions of the back up team. But generally is it that bad? Where in the table with a proper pre-season would it come? Obviously its not realistic but in theory they play all season and are on form and fit. I would say 7-10th ish. I mean sure it could do with some upgrades but for a second team its quite good.
Click to expand...

I agree with this B list. Putting Weghorst aside as we don't know his performance, I would categorise them into 3 groups, based on performance this season so far

A) Useful and not too expensive or troublesome as backup

Lindelof, Malacia, Fred, McTom, Garnacho

B) Too expensive as backup, either make it to 1st choice or else

Wan B, Sancho

C) Too expensive as backup, very unlikely to make it so better deal with them in summer

Maguire, VDB

Hence not too bad, just 3-4 decision, on top of Weghorst (to a certain extent Martial's long term position)
 
I'd be happy with this for next season, after we sign a Striker, a #6/8 and a CB:

Garnacho--------Martial--------------Pellistri
------------------------Amad---------------------------
----------------Fred-------#6/8--------------------------
Malacia------Lindelof------RCB-----Wan-Bissaka
--------------------------Heaton-------------------

So you need to move out Maguire to buy a younger CB with potential and some height. Can be younger and not quite the finished article since Shaw and Lindelof can also backup at CB. Same for McTominay, but a more ready player who can rotate with Eriksen (who can also rotate with Bruno) and backup Casemiro. And Sancho out if he wants to leave, or on loan for a small fee (plus his massive wages) because we save some money and he gets a chance to rehab his value and some Prem owner will realize he's more likely to keep his team up with a move or 2 like that and trusting 7-8 guys in his promotion XI or XI that stayed up, then buying 20 new players like the Greek guy at Forest.

Van De Beek, Maguire, McTominay and Sancho out, in whatever windows it happens, should bring back a minimum of 90M or so let's say to be cautious (15M for McT, 20M for Maguire, 45M for Sancho in time, 10M for Van De Beek).

That should be enough with even an 80M spending budget or so to bring back real quality at the #9, RCB and #6/8 type sots we need.

I'm guessing if we moved out that much, then De Gea and Wan-Bissaka might stay a bit longer for continuity and because it's hard to do 5-6 transfers in a window.
 
V.O. said:
It's great that Maguire, Lindelöf, Fred, McTominay, and Wan Bissaka are now squad players after so long of most/all of them starting every week.

They're all perfectly good enough for that as well.
Click to expand...

Just a shame we spunked £225 mill on them
 
NoPace said:
I'd be happy with this for next season, after we sign a Striker, a #6/8 and a CB:

Garnacho--------Martial--------------Pellistri
------------------------Amad---------------------------
----------------Fred-------#6/8--------------------------
Malacia------Lindelof------RCB-----Wan-Bissaka
--------------------------Heaton-------------------

So you need to move out Maguire to buy a younger CB with potential and some height. Can be younger and not quite the finished article since Shaw and Lindelof can also backup at CB. Same for McTominay, but a more ready player who can rotate with Eriksen (who can also rotate with Bruno) and backup Casemiro. And Sancho out if he wants to leave, or on loan for a small fee (plus his massive wages) because we save some money and he gets a chance to rehab his value and some Prem owner will realize he's more likely to keep his team up with a move or 2 like that and trusting 7-8 guys in his promotion XI or XI that stayed up, then buying 20 new players like the Greek guy at Forest.

Van De Beek, Maguire, McTominay and Sancho out, in whatever windows it happens, should bring back a minimum of 90M or so let's say to be cautious (15M for McT, 20M for Maguire, 45M for Sancho in time, 10M for Van De Beek).

That should be enough with even an 80M spending budget or so to bring back real quality at the #9, RCB and #6/8 type sots we need.

I'm guessing if we moved out that much, then De Gea and Wan-Bissaka might stay a bit longer for continuity and because it's hard to do 5-6 transfers in a window.
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First two I agree, last two... Nope. You need to give Sancho time, he is being Rashford of last season. There is an excellent player there, just hasn't worked out for him yet. He has enough time on his hand to turn it around. McTominay is a very good squad player. Just remember at the start of the season when Casamiro had just joined us, he was performing so well that Casamiro was hardly getting a look in
 
drmuji said:
First two I agree, last two... Nope. You need to give Sancho time, he is being Rashford of last season. There is an excellent player there, just hasn't worked out for him yet. He has enough time on his hand to turn it around. McTominay is a very good squad player. Just remember at the start of the season when Casamiro had just joined us, he was performing so well that Casamiro was hardly getting a look in
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Yeah, Sancho staying, getting the chance to play as a 10 (Bruno ends up in the half space half the time anyways) and one of Pellistri or Amad competing with him on the right and the other on loan seems like the likeliest option to me.

But if we do need money, and it seems like we do, the priorities have to be at the ST, #8 and RCB spots. We have to get quality players there more than we need Sancho to be a 4th winger and 2nd #10 for us, since we need a #8 anyways and Eriksen can be excellent cover at the #10 spot.

If we spend big on ST and #8 and don't have much left over to upgrade Maguire, I do think that's a bigger issue than Sancho being let's say an 8/10 player and Amad and Pellistri being 7/10 types, now that Rashford looks great (Sancho has to stay until he signs a deal for sure) and Garnacho is seemingly the best prospect we have (though Mainoo seems to be similarly highly rated) and Amad is lighting up the Championship and Pellistri seems to be a starter for Uruguay.
 
NoPace said:
Yeah, Sancho staying, getting the chance to play as a 10 (Bruno ends up in the half space half the time anyways) and one of Pellistri or Amad competing with him on the right and the other on loan seems like the likeliest option to me.

But if we do need money, and it seems like we do, the priorities have to be at the ST, #8 and RCB spots. We have to get quality players there more than we need Sancho to be a 4th winger and 2nd #10 for us, since we need a #8 anyways and Eriksen can be excellent cover at the #10 spot.

If we spend big on ST and #8 and don't have much left over to upgrade Maguire, I do think that's a bigger issue than Sancho being let's say an 8/10 player and Amad and Pellistri being 7/10 types, now that Rashford looks great (Sancho has to stay until he signs a deal for sure) and Garnacho is seemingly the best prospect we have (though Mainoo seems to be similarly highly rated) and Amad is lighting up the Championship and Pellistri seems to be a starter for Uruguay.
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Who do you think we could replace Maguire with that would be happy as a back-up? Lindelof as well for that matter, both of these are first choice for their countries!
 
Red in STL said:
Who do you think we could replace Maguire with that would be happy as a back-up? Lindelof as well for that matter, both of these are first choice for their countries!
Click to expand...

Lindelof seems fine to be 3rd or 4th choice here. I think there are lot of good young CBs who would be happy to come here and get time behind Varane (who is often hurt) and replace him in time. Chelsea didn't have a much better depth chart to offer Badiashile, and 38M is about the most I think we'd spend on a backup (and future replacement) to Varane unless he gets hurt.
 
NoPace said:
Lindelof seems fine to be 3rd or 4th choice here. I think there are lot of good young CBs who would be happy to come here and get time behind Varane (who is often hurt) and replace him in time. Chelsea didn't have a much better depth chart to offer Badiashile, and 38M is about the most I think we'd spend on a backup (and future replacement) to Varane unless he gets hurt.
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Maybe Maguire might be happy as 3rd or 4th choice as well, I bet nobody has asked him, both are experienced players and steady if nothing else, I don't see any need to replace them for a younger version who may or may not be a better player and an expensive way to find out
 
UpWithRivers said:
The back up team get an absolute battering. Well not all - Malacia/Garnacho are liked. But most of the rest are more or less battered. Maguire/Wan B (except recent performances), Fred, McTominay, Lindelof mainly. And I hear the Youtubers saying that we cant survive because a couple of injuries and we're fkd. But how bad is this back up team really?

--------------------------Heaton
Wan B------Lindelof------Maguire-----Malacia
----------------Fred-------McTominay
----------------------VDB
Sancho------Weghorst------Garnacho

Sure I've taken some liberties - Presume Weghorst signs and is decent, Sancho comes back and plays well. DVB comes back etc. People can have their own versions of the back up team. But generally is it that bad? Where in the table with a proper pre-season would it come? Obviously its not realistic but in theory they play all season and are on form and fit. I would say 7-10th ish. I mean sure it could do with some upgrades but for a second team its quite good.
Click to expand...

It's not bad if you take into account that the core of this hypothetical team i.e. Maguire, Lindelof, McTominay and Fred were nailed-on starters just twelve months ago.
 
The midfield is definitely something I'm not confident there. Completely different type of midfield to the ones we have in our XI. We have 2 playmakers and the best DM who can pass the ball and defend in our XI. On contrary, McFred are just hard working box to box, while VDB is not playmaker.
 
Is our "second" team bad, look at it a different way, compare it to the rest of the PL's

City aside, how many teams have a better set of back-ups?
 
It's very decent. Maguire and Wan Bissaka don't really fit the system in terms of backups (need a left footer at CB to partner the RCB, AWB very meh on the ball but is decent cover), and the midfield 3 doesn't work together (completely lacks creativity, Fred is perfect as a bench mid but the other 2 are mediocre), but it's not bad at all. Amad to come in as the 3rd midfielder would make it look a lot better.

Butland
Frimpong? Lindelof ??? Malacia
Amad Mctominay Fred
Sancho Weghorst Garnacho
​
Basically, I don't dislike this backup 11... The hard part with a backup 11 is they need to be the right blend of youngsters who can develop, players who push starters, impact subs who give you a different options and deeper depth who are decent players but content with their bit part roles.
 
Red in STL said:
Maybe Maguire might be happy as 3rd or 4th choice as well, I bet nobody has asked him, both are experienced players and steady if nothing else, I don't see any need to replace them for a younger version who may or may not be a better player and an expensive way to find out
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He needs to keep his England job, but yeah he might get offers from like Villa and West Ham and non-Juve Serie A teams and decide he'd rather just stay here and bank on settling into the new system better than he has so far (he has shown some good stuff on the ball and certainly aerially when he's not rushing into the half-space and creating opportunities for opponents) and that Varane will be out repeatedly or for a while.
 
NoPace said:
He needs to keep his England job, but yeah he might get offers from like Villa and West Ham and non-Juve Serie A teams and decide he'd rather just stay here and bank on settling into the new system better than he has so far (he has shown some good stuff on the ball and certainly aerially when he's not rushing into the half-space and creating opportunities for opponents) and that Varane will be out repeatedly or for a while.
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Fair observations, IMO he's a lot better than a lot on here seem to think, if we get an offer for him that's suitable and he wants to go then fine, but actively looking to replace him is silly, we could turn out getting a promising Phil Jones!
 
Our first squad 2 years ago feels very similar to our 2nd squad now....


we added a lot of needed quality... the 2 CBS, CDM are huge.
 
Our second string is now quite strong apart from the obvious weakness in central midfield.

If we upgrade on Donny and Mctom then we'll be set. Wingers, defenders all good. Keeper and striker are a bit iffy too
 
Desert Eagle said:
Our second string is now quite strong apart from the obvious weakness in central midfield.

If we upgrade on Donny and Mctom then we'll be set. Wingers, defenders all good. Keeper and striker are a bit iffy too
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We might already have the midfield upgrade in Hannibal, Zidane, or Savage. I wouldn't look to sign just anyone unless its the right one. For the rest of this season, McFred will have to step it up.
 
mu4c_20le said:
We might already have the midfield upgrade in Hannibal, Zidane, or Savage. I wouldn't look to sign just anyone unless its the right one. For the rest of this season, McFred will have to step it up.
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We have young Mainoo too. If even one of them makes the step up that would be great.
 
It is not bad, most of our previous starting 11 players are now back up players, that shows the squad is good. Also like few mentioned, we won't play entire second 11 at any point.

We can improve our squad for sure but it's decent as it is.
 
Last edited:
In terms of quality, it's pretty good. It has the nucleus of the same side that finished 2nd in the Premiership. Their worst season, which was considered a disaster was finishing 6th.

The problem with our second string isn't the quality, it's how well can they slot into the side when required. Maguire for example looks like a fish out of water when asked to play in EtH's system. AWB is another, who although has shown some improvements recently, really struggled to do what was required of him. DvB again is someone who looks to be on a completely different wavelength from the rest of the team when he plays. Replacing some of these guys with players of equivalent quality, but better suited to our playstyle would be beneficial.

We also suffer from another issue with our second string, which is that we lack "impact players" (Garnacho the exception). Earlier in the season when we've had to chase games, we don't have a lot of guys who can come on and offer something different or provide a spark to change a game. EtH's go to guy from the bench has been Fred. Maybe Weghorst can provide some of that, but I still think we would benefit from a Mata-type player in the middle of the park who can come on and create something out of nothing. Maybe that will be Amad next year or Eriksen if we sign another midfielder.
 
We shall soon find out. If we get past reading and Forest we are going to have one brutal February and March. Games twice a week without fail.
 
Desert Eagle said:
Our second string is now quite strong apart from the obvious weakness in central midfield.

If we upgrade on Donny and Mctom then we'll be set. Wingers, defenders all good. Keeper and striker are a bit iffy too
Click to expand...
So it's quite strong apart from the keeper, striker and midfield...?
 
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