ACTUAL POLL thread - how do you feel about potential Qatari ownership?

[redcucumber]

I do get the notion of questioning state backing. Saying it is anti competitive is weird given sports need capital and state sponsorship (e.g. CIVID19) and/or it already exists. Jim moves to wherever to increase his tax efficiencies or reduce the out flow of capital to suppliers of money capital. Smart move, I see that in theoretical terms as state backing. Professor Cliff Bowman and Professor veronique ambrosini wrote an article where they looked in general terms at value, it's definitely worth a read 372713 479..495 (emerald.com) . At the core is the resource based value (RBV or as some call it RBT resource based theory). Antecedents of the theory can be traced back to competitive environments.

This isn't pointed at you, what I really take issue with is the labelling of Jassim's bidding as Qatari while not labelling Jim's as Luxembourg or wherever.

How is it weird? Why do you think people are so vehemently against the likes of City and PSG? People don't respect either club precisely because the entirety of their sporting model is built on state backing.

On the bolded, seriously? There's such an obvious difference people labelling Jassim's bid as potentially state backed but not INEOS - I don't even see why anyone would conflate the two (unless they had ulterior motives to make one bid seem more palatable). Utilising tax loopholes to increase revenue is extremely questionable on moral grounds but that doesn't equate to having the backing of a state.

 

[Member 101269]

How is it weird? Why do you think people are so vehemently against the likes of City and PSG? People don't respect either club precisely because the entirety of their sporting model is built on state backing.

On the bolded, seriously? There's such an obvious difference people labelling Jassim's bid as potentially state backed but not INEOS - I don't even see why anyone would conflate the two (unless they had ulterior motives to make one bid seem more palatable). Utilising tax loopholes to increase revenue is extremely questionable on moral grounds but that doesn't equate to having the backing of a state.

To make such a statement I'm not sure you understand or have read the article/the model. The whole premise of your argument is that Jassim's bid is state backed, despite you saying potentially, for which not one person I have asked for evidence has produced it.

 

[redcucumber]

To make such a statement I'm not sure you understand or have read the article/the model. The whole premise of your argument is that Jassim's bid is state backed, despite you saying potentially, for which not one person I have asked for evidence has produced it.

You mean the study that you linked? No, obviously I haven't read it. You're aware it's a weekday and that most people work yeh?

Like many other people, I'm not seeing how Jassim has the funds to purchase a club of United's size. It's really not inconceivable that the state of Qatar is somehow involved. Why do you think anyone posting on a football forum would have evidence to prove anything? You're taking all of this a bit seriously. I doubt anyone here is an investigative journalist. We are all looking at the available evidence and using our critical faculties to make a judgement call. I think the state of Qatar is somehow involved, you don't. That's all there is to it, and if you're sitting around waiting for someone on Redcafe to produce evidence for you I wish you the best of luck in that endeavour.

 

[Member 101269]

You mean the study that you linked? No, obviously I haven't read it. You're aware it's a weekday and that most people work yeh?

Like many other people, I'm not seeing how Jassim has the funds to purchase a club of United's size. It's really not inconceivable that the state of Qatar is somehow involved. Why do you think anyone posting on a football forum would have evidence to prove anything? You're taking all of this a bit seriously. I doubt anyone here is an investigative journalist. We are all looking at the available evidence and using our critical faculties to make a judgement call. I think the state of Qatar is somehow involved, you don't. That's all there is to it, and if you're sitting around waiting for someone on Redcafe to produce evidence for you I wish you the best of luck in that endeavour.

It's better you read it before posting personal comments.

It is no less or no more inconceivable, given the framework i used, that others are enhanced by a or more states. Like i said, using state backed tax efficiencies that helps create advantages is from my view/the model state backing. If you read the article or even glanced at the infographic (figure 1) it'd help.

 

[enghuei]

You mean the study that you linked? No, obviously I haven't read it. You're aware it's a weekday and that most people work yeh?

Like many other people, I'm not seeing how Jassim has the funds to purchase a club of United's size. It's really not inconceivable that the state of Qatar is somehow involved. Why do you think anyone posting on a football forum would have evidence to prove anything? You're taking all of this a bit seriously. I doubt anyone here is an investigative journalist. We are all looking at the available evidence and using our critical faculties to make a judgement call. I think the state of Qatar is somehow involved, you don't. That's all there is to it, and if you're sitting around waiting for someone on Redcafe to produce evidence for you I wish you the best of luck in that endeavour.

Yet you're here typing away

 

[stevoc]

Partly, but I saw a lot of people going on about this Forbes estimate of the Al Thani family wealth and saying it shows that they can't possibly afford to buy the club without state money

So I looked into this and realised pretty quickly that the Forbes estimate is total nonsense



I reckon £10 to £20bn but it's a guess

Even with a fortune of £20b. You wouldn't imagine HBJ would be dropping £7b+ from his personal wealth on a project for one of his 15 children. So the bulk of the money must be coming from elsewhere.

 

[redcucumber]

Yet you're here typing away

Posting a 2 minute comment on United while sat on the toilet ≠ reading a random study on the value-creation process from a journal that requires access permissions. Great insight yet again though, buddy.

 

[redcucumber]

It's better you read it before posting personal comments.

It is no less or no more inconceivable, given the framework i used, that others are enhanced by a or more states. Like i said, using state backed tax efficiencies that helps create advantages is from my view/the model state backing. If you read the article or even glanced at the infographic (figure 1) it'd help.

No disrespect but I have better things to do than read a random study on value-creation a newb on Redcafe posted. I regularly have to review studies so I'd rather not have to do it when procrastinating. Sort of goes against the entire concept.

 

[Member 101269]

Posting a 2 minute comment on United while sat on the toilet ≠ reading a random study on the value-creation process from a journal that requires access permissions. Great insight yet again though, buddy.

It's not a random piece of work, it is a seminal article. Their overall work has been cited thousands of times in academia.

 

[redcucumber]

It's not a random piece of work, it is a seminal article. Their overall work has been cited thousands of times in academia.

I didn't say it hasn't been cited by other researchers therefore isn't worth my time. I just literally am not interested in reading a study about the value-creation process when talking United. It's not that deep for me.

 

[Member 101269]

No disrespect but I have better things to do than read a random study on value-creation a newb on Redcafe posted. I regularly have to review studies so I'd rather not have to do it when procrastinating. Sort of goes against the entire concept.

I didn't say it hasn't been cited by other researchers therefore isn't worth my time. I just literally am not interested in reading a study about the value-creation process when talking United. It's not that deep for me.

Again attacking the person not the post, then avoiding the discussion. If it's not that deep, please provide details of your published academic work. I'd be happy to read it.

 

[redcucumber]

Again attacking the person not the post, then avoiding the discussion. If it's not that deep, please provide details of your published academic work. I'd be happy to read it.

Tf are you on about? How am I attacking the person?

Why are you taking it really personally that I don't want to read the study you posted . I'm happy to discuss and debate football but I don't want to read a study about the value-creation process. Is that okay with you? I don't have any published work, I said I have to review studies and have no interest in going through the one you posted. Without being rude, get over it?

 

[Member 101269]

Tf are you on about? How am I attacking the person?

Why are you taking it really personally that I don't want to read the study you posted . I'm happy to discuss and debate football but I don't want to read a study about the value-creation process. Is that okay with you? I don't have any published work, I said I have to review studies and have no interest in going through the one you posted. Without being rude, get over it?

Rather than attempting to play the victim, which you are not, perhaps you should review your words, you implied ulterior motives and inferred that holding newb was somehow inferior. I'm happy to take it your posts aren't well framed.

 

[redcucumber]

Rather than attempting to play the victim, which you are not, perhaps you should review your words, you implied ulterior motives and inferred that holding newb was somehow inferior. I'm happy to take it your posts aren't well framed.

I'm sorry for referring to you as a newb. Happy?

 

[tomaldinho1]

Why is it false? The Sunday Times puts his personal fortune at £2bn and my research shows this is a massive underestimate

But obviously he is 'linked' to the state, he managed the Qatari sovereign wealth fund for several years. I have no doubt that he would have to discuss this bid with the Emir of Qatar and get approval before going ahead

That's doesn't mean it can't be a private bid though

You said that reputable sources (ft and bbc) referring to it as a private bid meant it was not linked to the state and the onus, therefore, should be on posters in this thread to therefore prove there is some link to the state.

When I asked you to explain you said it was so basic and yet you still can’t explain, because you can’t.

 

[Stookie]

How much money does this guy have?

 

[Rood]

You said that reputable sources (ft and bbc) referring to it as a private bid meant it was not linked to the state and the onus, therefore, should be on posters in this thread to therefore prove there is some link to the state.

When I asked you to explain you said it was so basic and yet you still can’t explain, because you can’t.

I explained everything, if you don't understand that's your problem

 

[stevoc]

You said that reputable sources (ft and bbc) referring to it as a private bid meant it was not linked to the state and the onus, therefore, should be on posters in this thread to therefore prove there is some link to the state.

When I asked you to explain you said it was so basic and yet you still can’t explain, because you can’t.

If we're honest here at this stage there's virtually no way to prove if it is or isn't state backed.

But someone would have to be pretty naive to genuinely think that this Jassim bid isn't state backed. Or at least that it's highly likely that it's state funded considering the numbers involved.

 

[Rood]

If we're honest here at this stage there's virtually no way to prove if it is or isn't state backed.

But someone would have to be pretty naive to genuinely think that this Jassim bid isn't state backed. Or at least that it's highly likely that it's state funded considering the numbers involved.

Im pretty sure the amount of money is not a problem for them, you are talking about one of the richest and most powerful families in the whole Gulf

 

[tomaldinho1]

I explained everything, if you don't understand that's your problem

I expected another rambling or diversionary reply but I guess you’ve realised you’ve cooked your goose.

 

[tomaldinho1]

If we're honest here at this stage there's virtually no way to prove if it is or isn't state backed.

But someone would have to be pretty naive to genuinely think that this Jassim bid isn't state backed. Or at least that it's highly likely that it's state funded considering the numbers involved.

Exactly and so we work off the weight of opinion (which is near unanimous) that the state is involved and that Jassim will need to prove some degree of separation to PSG (QSI sub of QIA). Therefore if there is a need to prove a separation we can quite reasonably assume the connection exists until proven otherwise. Ironically the exact opposite of what @Rood and @Figgins are saying but kudos to them for the effort I guess and making the thread longer.

 

[Member 101269]

If we're honest here at this stage there's virtually no way to prove if it is or isn't state backed.

But someone would have to be pretty naive to genuinely think that this Jassim bid isn't state backed. Or at least that it's highly likely that it's state funded considering the numbers involved.

All speculation, and again contrary to the notion of private. The onus is on you to prove, not I, that private is state backed. It's not naïve it's lack of evidence.

Exactly and so we work off the weight of opinion (which is near unanimous) that the state is involved and that Jassim will need to prove some degree of separation to PSG (QSI sub of QIA). Therefore if there is a need to prove a separation we can quite reasonably assume the connection exists until proven otherwise. Ironically the exact opposite of what @Rood and @Figgins are saying but kudos to them for the effort I guess and making the thread longer.

So guilty unless proven innocent.

Weight of opinion has zero weight when there is zero evidence that Jassim's bid is state backed. To think otherwise is irrational

 

[stevoc]

Im pretty sure the amount of money is not a problem for them, you are talking about one of the richest and most powerful families in the whole Gulf

The AL Thani family?

Yeah the same family that rules the state of Qatar.

 

[Member 101269]

The AL Thani family?

Yeah the same family that rules the state of Qatar.

All 20,000 plus of them...

 

[stevoc]

All speculation, and again contrary to the notion of private. The onus is on you to prove, not I, that private is state backed. It's not naïve it's lack of evidence.

It isn't at all, there's no way to feasibly prove it. Truth be told there isn't an onus on anyone to prove anything. Officially Man City isn't state owned but only naive people would actually believe that that is actually the case.

If someone wants to conveniently believe that this Jassim takeover is a private bid fair play to them. But they shouldn't be surprised when most other people don't choose to also believe that.

 

[tomaldinho1]

All speculation, and again contrary to the notion of private. The onus is on you to prove, not I, that private is state backed. It's not naïve it's lack of evidence.



So guilty unless proven innocent.

Weight of opinion has zero weight when there is zero evidence that Jassim's bid is state backed. To think otherwise is irrational

Your logic seems to be that unless a poster on the caf can hack and obtain precise confidential details of the formation of Jassim’s bid then it’s all moot. Forget every single media outlet directly or indirectly stating there is a link there, Figgins has got this one sewn up - there is no link until Jassim in his bid to win over fans decides to send an excel link to the caf to peruse the exact sources of his funding.

 

[stevoc]

All 20,000 plus of them...

I doubt there's 20,000 of them, it's widely reported there's about 3000 of them.

And the ones involved in this aren't some distant relatives. Sheikh Jassim the head of the QIB is the Emir's cousin, his father is the former Prime Minister and head of the state investment fund.

 

[Rood]

The AL Thani family?

Yeah the same family that rules the state of Qatar.

Well I'm talking the Jassim Snr + Jnr bit of the fam!

 

[Member 101269]

I doubt there's 20,000 of them, it's widely reported there's about 3000 of them.

And the ones involved in this aren't some distant relatives. Sheikh Jassim the head of the QIB is the Emir's cousin, his father is the former Prime Minister and head of the state investment fund.

Widely reported? behave. It's reported in the 1990s there were approx 20,000 in the house of Al Thani.

The ones involved? There is one reportedly involved.. no he's not the Emirs cousin

Your logic seems to be that unless a poster on the caf can hack and obtain precise confidential details of the formation of Jassim’s bid then it’s all moot. Forget every single media outlet directly or indirectly stating there is a link there, Figgins has got this one sewn up - there is no link until Jassim in his bid to win over fans decides to send an excel link to the caf to peruse the exact sources of his funding.

What a ridiculous comment. Your posts are all negative sewing seeds that are baseless, and reporting it like weight of opinion is fact/truth.

 

[stevoc]

Well I'm talking the Jassim Snr + Jnr bit of the fam!

Well yes but they're very closely related to the Emir. And while it's likely that Jassim and even more so his father are very, very wealthy individuals I doubt they are wealthy enough to fund this type of project on their own. So there are probably other family members involved in funding it also.

 

[blue blue]

All speculation, and again contrary to the notion of private. The onus is on you to prove, not I, that private is state backed. It's not naïve it's lack of evidence.



So guilty unless proven innocent.

Weight of opinion has zero weight when there is zero evidence that Jassim's bid is state backed. To think otherwise is irrational

Do you think Jassim's bid is entirely from his own finances and without any meaningful connection to the Qatar government?
Do you think it would matter either way and do you think the fans should be concerned? You seem to be more interested in the bid not being state backed than footballing issues but I could be wrong.
I don't understand why people are focussing on the alleged state ownership when for me the human rights issues are more important and that's a cultural thing.
Despite the World Cup, Qatar is not a footballing state and Jassim is not a fan, notwithstanding accounts of his interest in a previous bid, so for me this bid has a hidden agenda beyond football.

 

[Partridge]

I'm in the " I'm not happy, but I'll have to go along with it" camp. (Thankyou Peter Ohanrahnarahan)

 

[Oranges038]

I doubt there's 20,000 of them, it's widely reported there's about 3000 of them.

And the ones involved in this aren't some distant relatives. Sheikh Jassim the head of the QIB is the Emir's cousin, his father is the former Prime Minister and head of the state investment fund.

That's some downturn in numbers.

Is that what happens over time if everyone just marries their cousin?

 

[stevoc]

Widely reported? behave. It's reported in the 1990s there were approx 20,000 in the house of Al Thani.

Well if it was reported in the 90's it must be true, feck me. Has anyone reported that number since the 90's I doubt it.

https://www.famcap.com/2015/01/2015-1-9-is-this-the-worlds-biggest-family-office-probably/

https://prezi.com/hkqqsdjljvuw/the-al-thani-and-al-khalifa-dynasties-in-comparative-perspec/

The ones involved? There is one reportedly involved.. no he's not the Emirs cousin

HBJ is the Emir's cousin.

https://www.forbes.com/profile/hamad-bin-jassim-bin-jaber-al-thani/?sh=3e2f80025e49

 

[stevoc]

That's some downturn in numbers.

Is that what happens over time if everyone just marries their cousin?

Must be yeah.

I doubt there ever was 20,000 of them there are only a few hundred thousand native Qatari's in general.

 

[adexkola]

Do you think Jassim's bid is entirely from his own finances and without any meaningful connection to the Qatar government?
Do you think it would matter either way and do you think the fans should be concerned? You seem to be more interested in the bid not being state backed than footballing issues but I could be wrong.
I don't understand why people are focussing on the alleged state ownership when for me the human rights issues are more important and that's a cultural thing.
Despite the World Cup, Qatar is not a footballing state and Jassim is not a fan, notwithstanding accounts of his interest in a previous bid, so for me this bid has a hidden agenda beyond football.

Which is?

Please state clearly

 

[Spoony]

Chelsea fans and morals eh. Funny that.

 

[stevoc]

Do you think Jassim's bid is entirely from his own finances and without any meaningful connection to the Qatar government?
Do you think it would matter either way and do you think the fans should be concerned? You seem to be more interested in the bid not being state backed than footballing issues but I could be wrong.
I don't understand why people are focussing on the alleged state ownership when for me the human rights issues are more important and that's a cultural thing.
Despite the World Cup, Qatar is not a footballing state and Jassim is not a fan, notwithstanding accounts of his interest in a previous bid, so for me this bid has a hidden agenda beyond football.

Because if someone convinces themselves it's not state backed then they don't have to worry about Human Rights issues

 

[Member 125398]

Your logic seems to be that unless a poster on the caf can hack and obtain precise confidential details of the formation of Jassim’s bid then it’s all moot. Forget every single media outlet directly or indirectly stating there is a link there, Figgins has got this one sewn up - there is no link until Jassim in his bid to win over fans decides to send an excel link to the caf to peruse the exact sources of his funding.

I think it's fairly obvious from recent events that people are able to warp their perception very quickly in order to support their desires. The Qatari shills are the football equivalent of flat earthers.

 

[Rood]

Well yes but they're very closely related to the Emir. And while it's likely that Jassim and even more so his father are very, very wealthy individuals I doubt they are wealthy enough to fund this type of project on their own. So there are probably other family members involved in funding it also.

I believe they are wealthy enough but some kind of consortium is certainly possible - there is a probably a few United fans in the extended family who can bung in a few hundred million each